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Date: 13 Feb 2007 11:07:33
From: matthew henschel
Subject: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
Gettin used to this commercial bidniz. Does a good 12v DC pump exist to
interface with a procon type rotary vane? Trying to be as portable and
lossless as possible...120vac/60hz on the inverter is the last ditch....
Trying to stick with DC, or even better...
...gerbils and a pully?
...a schwinn?

Am I too lazy to want to flip a switch instead of pull a lever?
(pronounced: leeever)

Input accepted with welcome.

--
....pull shot to respond....




 
Date: 14 Feb 2007 11:20:17
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
I'd invest in a generator instead - has many uses and by the time you got
done finding for a new 12V pump or motor and adapting it you'd spend the
same amount. If you have electricity on site you can do a lot of things -
lighting, grinder, other appliances, etc.

Or get a propane heated lever machine and skip electricity completely.


"matthew henschel" <henschel@SHOTcapaccess.org > wrote in message
news:Xns98D63E501B2BEotheron23@130.81.64.196...
> Gettin used to this commercial bidniz. Does a good 12v DC pump exist to
> interface with a procon type rotary vane? Trying to be as portable and
> lossless as possible...120vac/60hz on the inverter is the last ditch....
> Trying to stick with DC, or even better...
> ...gerbils and a pully?
> ...a schwinn?
>
> Am I too lazy to want to flip a switch instead of pull a lever?
> (pronounced: leeever)
>
> Input accepted with welcome.
>
> --
> ....pull shot to respond....
>




  
Date: 14 Feb 2007 23:12:53
From: Danny
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
Jack Denver wrote:
> I'd invest in a generator instead - has many uses and by the time you got
> done finding for a new 12V pump or motor and adapting it you'd spend the
> same amount. If you have electricity on site you can do a lot of things -
> lighting, grinder, other appliances, etc.
>
> Or get a propane heated lever machine and skip electricity completely.
>

Not really doable. You still need some power for the inlet pump,
autofill etc, plus grinder etc.

A colleague runs an inverter off two 24v lorry batteries to power his
2 group semi auto with propane kit, grinder etc, and charges the
batteries once weekly.

The standard 12v pump I referred to in my earlier post is fine for
providing machines with mains pressure inlet water, the machine does
the rest. They are rated for at least 12 l/min.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



   
Date: 14 Feb 2007 20:41:34
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
In thinking about the original post, I'm puzzled now. For a pump machine you
still need mains voltage to run the heating element, main pump, solenoids,
etc. so what does a 12V feed pump do for you? Also, I understand that
procon machines will suck from a bottle over a short distance so you don't
really need a feed pump at all for a quick and dirty setup (but you may
have to recalibrate the pressure regulator on the procon to account for the
lower pressure because procons act as "boosters" - their pressure is
additive to line pressure so if the machine was set up to say give 9 bar out
of a 3 bar mains pressure it will put out 6 when sucking from a bottle.
Also you do need a check valve/ inlet solenoid if your machine is not so
equipped already.



"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:53hj9tF1sebppU1@mid.individual.net...
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> I'd invest in a generator instead - has many uses and by the time you got
>> done finding for a new 12V pump or motor and adapting it you'd spend the
>> same amount. If you have electricity on site you can do a lot of things -
>> lighting, grinder, other appliances, etc.
>>
>> Or get a propane heated lever machine and skip electricity completely.
>>
>
> Not really doable. You still need some power for the inlet pump, autofill
> etc, plus grinder etc.
>
> A colleague runs an inverter off two 24v lorry batteries to power his 2
> group semi auto with propane kit, grinder etc, and charges the batteries
> once weekly.
>
> The standard 12v pump I referred to in my earlier post is fine for
> providing machines with mains pressure inlet water, the machine does the
> rest. They are rated for at least 12 l/min.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>




    
Date: 16 Feb 2007 19:00:23
From: matthew henschel
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in
news:zNqdnSFXR5_NJ07YnZ2dnUVZ_qmpnZ2d@comcast.com:

> In thinking about the original post, I'm puzzled now. For a pump
> machine you still need mains voltage to run the heating element, main
> pump, solenoids, etc. so what does a 12V feed pump do for you? Also,
> I understand that procon machines will suck from a bottle over a short
> distance so you don't really need a feed pump at all for a quick and
> dirty setup (but you may have to recalibrate the pressure regulator on
> the procon to account for the lower pressure because procons act as
> "boosters" - their pressure is additive to line pressure so if the
> machine was set up to say give 9 bar out of a 3 bar mains pressure it
> will put out 6 when sucking from a bottle. Also you do need a check
> valve/ inlet solenoid if your machine is not so equipped already.
>
>
>

Hey Jack

The machine has a propane burner in addition the the 110v heating element.
I'm planning on running just propane nad a 12v procon. Currently have the
procon hooked up to 110v, and it's gravity fed from a water tank. No feed
pump needed. Pressure recalibrated.

I've read references to the check valve. Why is this needed?

Thanks

-Matt


     
Date: 17 Feb 2007 05:22:50
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:00:23 GMT, matthew henschel
<henschel@SHOTcapaccess.org > wrote:

>I've read references to the check valve. Why is this needed?


you should at least have a footer check-valve at the distal end of
your water supply line to prevent the boiler pressure from pushing the
feed water back into the jug.




      
Date: 17 Feb 2007 09:54:44
From: matthew henschel
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in
news:684dt2llr9hm5d2or7r2on257bm3mtqfhq@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:00:23 GMT, matthew henschel
> <henschel@SHOTcapaccess.org> wrote:
>
> >I've read references to the check valve. Why is this needed?
>
>
> you should at least have a footer check-valve at the distal end of
> your water supply line to prevent the boiler pressure from pushing the
> feed water back into the jug.
>
>
>


That seems apparent. I'm assuming something like that is built into the
machine already (part of the water feed?), as I've had no problems thus
far-- but I've yet to get my hold on those diagrams. Seems like cheap
insurance to add one inline. Thanks, I'll do that.

I'll post in the upcoming weeks as to how the 12V mod goes... It's turning
into quite the rig thus far.

-Matt


--
....pull shot to respond....


       
Date: 17 Feb 2007 18:30:36
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:54:44 GMT, matthew henschel
<henschel@SHOTcapaccess.org > wrote:

>That seems apparent. I'm assuming something like that is built into the
>machine already (part of the water feed?), as I've had no problems thus
>far-- but I've yet to get my hold on those diagrams. Seems like cheap
>insurance to add one inline. Thanks, I'll do that.
>

even if there is an inlet check valve at the machine, you need a
footer valve, too. inlet check vavles often stick open, because in
normal operation they never close. also, w/o a footer valve, water
can drain from the hose through gravity/siphon (depending upon the
orientation of the hose).



     
Date: 16 Feb 2007 22:46:20
From: Danny
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
matthew henschel wrote:

> Hey Jack
>
> The machine has a propane burner in addition the the 110v heating element.
> I'm planning on running just propane nad a 12v procon. Currently have the
> procon hooked up to 110v, and it's gravity fed from a water tank. No feed
> pump needed. Pressure recalibrated.
>
> I've read references to the check valve. Why is this needed?
>
> Thanks
>
> -Matt

Be aware that machines running propane alone (or all the machines I've
seen) always creep the pressure up during inactivity. Since the
burner is always on but at a lower flame as the pressurestat closes
the gas valve it is always heating, so needs careful adjustment and
also some frequent use or pulling off of excess water. This assumes a
propane kit similar to all the ones I've seen here, where there is no
pilot light, just a main burner. Utilising a pilot light and a main
burner valve that was on/off rather than the reducing pressure type I
see in use here would alleviate this problem.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



 
Date: 13 Feb 2007 11:16:02
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
matthew henschel <henschel@SHOTcapaccess.org > wrote:

>Gettin used to this commercial bidniz. Does a good 12v DC pump exist to
>interface with a procon type rotary vane? Trying to be as portable and
>lossless as possible...120vac/60hz on the inverter is the last ditch....
>Trying to stick with DC, or even better...
>...gerbils and a pully?
>...a schwinn?
>
>Am I too lazy to want to flip a switch instead of pull a lever?
>(pronounced: leeever)
>
>Input accepted with welcome.

Others have been commenting on pumps that supply water for drinking
water systems and other such transfers of fluids at a lower pressure
than you need to brew espresso. You might be able to start with a
procon pump and come up with a suitable motor to drive it. A 12 volt
motor with the torque needed will not be cheap and will draw a lot of
current- think starter motor, but with a longer duty cycle.

I believe that your last statement was correct- A lever machine with a
smaller pump to supply it is by far the better way to go. it will also
be far more dependable.

Randy "10hp 12 v motor" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




  
Date: 13 Feb 2007 23:44:59
From: matthew henschel
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?

>
> Others have been commenting on pumps that supply water for drinking
> water systems and other such transfers of fluids at a lower pressure
> than you need to brew espresso. You might be able to start with a
> procon pump and come up with a suitable motor to drive it. A 12 volt
> motor with the torque needed will not be cheap and will draw a lot of
> current- think starter motor, but with a longer duty cycle.
>
> I believe that your last statement was correct- A lever machine with a
> smaller pump to supply it is by far the better way to go. it will also
> be far more dependable.
>

This is more the type of answer I'm looking for. I think it's entirely
doable, just have yet to find the appropriate motor. I played around with
the 110v pump and a variac, and was able to pump 9 bar to both groups at
around 300watts. Since DC motors are more effeciant, I would think there
would be a 20amp 12v pump out there somewhere that could do it for me. 2
8d batteries and I could rock a line for 20 hours... The question is,
where do I find the pump...

Anyone else have any ideas for this thread? Are there any equations for
power in and procon psi and/or gpm out?

Thanks

-Matt


   
Date: 14 Feb 2007 02:49:42
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:44:59 GMT, matthew henschel
<henschel@SHOTcapaccess.org > wrote:

>around 300watts. Since DC motors are more effeciant, I would think there
>would be a 20amp 12v pump out there somewhere that could do it for me. 2
>8d batteries and I could rock a line for 20 hours... The question is,
>where do I find the pump...
>

find the motor you want to use and have an adapter made to drive the
procon.



    
Date: 14 Feb 2007 05:09:14
From: matthew henschel
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in
news:45u4t2t35q99qmcrbgq4a3qk9hc4qjvmup@4ax.com:
>
> >around 300watts. Since DC motors are more effeciant, I would think
> >there would be a 20amp 12v pump out there somewhere that could do it
> >for me. 2 8d batteries and I could rock a line for 20 hours... The
> >question is, where do I find the pump...
> >
>
> find the motor you want to use and have an adapter made to drive the
> procon.
>
>


thats what i was figgerin'. Looks like I'm the proud new owner of this
one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%
3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200077727082&rd=1&rd=1

Anyone know if there are any RPM requirements of the procon-type pump? Is
it possible to spin it too fast or two slow? Wonder if I'm gonna have to
PWM this thing...

I'm wondering if there is a reason there are no 12v motors out there pre-
made for the procon... Guess I'll find out!

-Matt


--
....pull shot to respond....


 
Date: 13 Feb 2007 07:28:34
From: bernie
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
matthew henschel wrote:
> Gettin used to this commercial bidniz. Does a good 12v DC pump exist to
> interface with a procon type rotary vane? Trying to be as portable and
> lossless as possible...120vac/60hz on the inverter is the last ditch....
> Trying to stick with DC, or even better...
> ...gerbils and a pully?
> ...a schwinn?
>
> Am I too lazy to want to flip a switch instead of pull a lever?
> (pronounced: leeever)
>
> Input accepted with welcome.
>

I use an on-demand type pump that is available at any RV parts
counter. You can drive it with a small 12v battery charger or a 12vDC
battery. Assuming that what you are trying to do is provide a
pressurized water supply to an espresso machine with a procon 120v AC pump.
Bernie


  
Date: 13 Feb 2007 18:20:44
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:28:34 -0700, bernie <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote:

> I use an on-demand type pump that is available at any RV parts
>counter. You can drive it with a small 12v battery charger or a 12vDC
>battery. Assuming that what you are trying to do is provide a
>pressurized water supply to an espresso machine with a procon 120v AC pump.

it's also helpful to put an accumulator in the system, to damp out the
supply pump pulses.



 
Date: 13 Feb 2007 14:22:29
From: Danny
Subject: Re: ~9 bar volumetric 12v pump for a commercial machine?
matthew henschel wrote:
> Gettin used to this commercial bidniz. Does a good 12v DC pump exist to
> interface with a procon type rotary vane? Trying to be as portable and
> lossless as possible...120vac/60hz on the inverter is the last ditch....
> Trying to stick with DC, or even better...
> ...gerbils and a pully?
> ...a schwinn?
>
> Am I too lazy to want to flip a switch instead of pull a lever?
> (pronounced: leeever)
>
> Input accepted with welcome.
>

I use a UP1215 pump from whale ine pumps:

http://www.whale.ltd.uk/

It's used in the espresso trailer to pull water from 25 litre
containers and supply 3 bar pressure to both espresso (lever) machine
and taps. They are automatic pressure sensing and maintain the
equivalent of mains pressure on the output line. Other companies that
ket similar pumps are sureflow etc, but some are quite cheap and
nasty. Whale pumps cost around 75 UK pounds and are available from
yacht chandlers etc.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)