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Date: 23 Oct 2006 19:05:23
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: About "expensive" green coffees
CoffeeCuppers.com (reviewers I trust more than others) has some
enticing reviews of coffees from Paradise Roasters. Paradise sells a
couple of these as greens for $10 and $12 per pound. In your opinion
and practice do you spend this kind of money on green coffee that you
roast for your espresso? I have, on occasion, spent the big bucks on
some wonderful coffees (rationalizing by comparing the per/cup cost to
the wines on my shelf). And yes, I usually notice something very
special. Nice.

But the "delta" between these coffees and other quality coffees for
half or less the price is not as significant as the between-shot
variation that I experience as a competent-but-not-amazing home roaster
and barista.

What's your thought and practice? Do you have an informal max that's
equivalent, for example, to "best wines under $10" or some such.

tin





 
Date: 25 Oct 2006 21:16:20
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
Let me clear up something. I'll take credit for popularizing heatgun
roasting, even "inventing" the HG and DB combo. As far as being "a very
good roaster" all reports of such, other than my own, are strictly
fictitious. Of this I am quite certain. The logic, including Jim's,
goes something like this: HG roasting can be very good; tin waxes
on about HG roasting and has done so for quite some time; tin must
be very good.

There, I feel much better now.

tin (who is waiting for his new LaSapziale Vivaldi II, at which
point he will give a detailed but worthless review of the machine while
implying, but not actually claiming, that he is a very fine barista,
indeed)

Ken Fox wrote:
> "jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:g8nsj2t5voegfr778jlkki3h1vcslsv5jn@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:15:33 -0600, "Ken Fox"
> > <morceaudemerde@snipThisPleaseHotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>So, your $12 expenditure on some green coffee might not produce the same
> >>results in the cup as Jim Schulman's purchase of the same beans.
> >
> > FYI, tin is a very good roaster.
>
> Of course I already knew THAT. Not only did he more or less invent the
> HG/DD method, but I've heard reports from people (I believe including you)
> that he's a good roaster.
>
> FWIW, the above sentence of mine could be interpreted to mean his results
> are different (than yours) but equal, or "better" than yours. It was simply
> a generic comment that could be applied to anyone buying unfinished
> ingredients, processing them in some way, and then observing their results
> in comparison to those obtained by others who likewise have had to "process"
> them beforehand.
>
> ken



 
Date: 25 Oct 2006 04:02:03
From: JulesG
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
jim schulman wrote:
> On 24 Oct 2006 16:17:02 -0700, "JulesG" <jules.gobeil@videotron.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >We are lucky to be able to buy high quality beans and to have access to
> >reasonably priced equipment to make top quality coffee at home from
> >green beans. I'll drink to that ! Wine or espresso ? Why not both !
>
> That part is right, buit you're missing my point. Youi can buy the
> best green coffee on the planet relatively cheaply - 60 odd cups for
> around $10. You can't buy either the grapes or the wine for 60 glasses
> from say Chateau geaux or Yquem for anything less than the down
> payment on your house.

Jim, I hope you are joking and that you are not writing this
seriously... Of course you cannot buy those grapes but what do you
think the cost of the grapes is in a 500$ Chateau d'Yquem ?

By the way, it seems that my last post in this thread has disappeared,
the one you are referring to. Can you still see it ?



  
Date: 25 Oct 2006 06:49:49
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
On 25 Oct 2006 04:02:03 -0700, "JulesG" <jules.gobeil@videotron.ca >
wrote:

>Jim, I hope you are joking and that you are not writing this
>seriously... Of course you cannot buy those grapes but what do you
>think the cost of the grapes is in a 500$ Chateau d'Yquem ?

60 glasses at 4 glasses a bottle is 15 bottles, or $7,500.

OK, an exceedingly cozy house


 
Date: 24 Oct 2006 16:17:02
From: JulesG
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
I really don't think it is fair to compare wine with green coffee.
Wine is the finished product - the output - and green beans are the
raw ingredient - the input.

In restaurants and coffee shops, espresso is more expensive than a
decent bottle of wine. There are 18 1.5 ounces espresso shots at 2$
each in the 750 ml. of a bottle of wine, for a total of 36$.

Comparing the cost of making wine at home from grapes to the cost of
making espresso at home from green beans - coffee costs much less. It
is also easier to make and less time consuming.

Comparing complexity - it is likely impossible to make wine from grapes
at home that has the same quality as the espresso we can make at home
from green beans. Wine is too complex, there are zillions variables to
be accounted for, it is impossible to get top quality grapes with just
the correct ripeness and it must be made in large volume.

We are lucky to be able to buy high quality beans and to have access to
reasonably priced equipment to make top quality coffee at home from
green beans. I'll drink to that ! Wine or espresso ? Why not both !



  
Date: 24 Oct 2006 19:37:22
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
On 24 Oct 2006 16:17:02 -0700, "JulesG" <jules.gobeil@videotron.ca >
wrote:

>
>We are lucky to be able to buy high quality beans and to have access to
>reasonably priced equipment to make top quality coffee at home from
>green beans. I'll drink to that ! Wine or espresso ? Why not both !

That part is right, buit you're missing my point. Youi can buy the
best green coffee on the planet relatively cheaply - 60 odd cups for
around $10. You can't buy either the grapes or the wine for 60 glasses
from say Chateau geaux or Yquem for anything less than the down
payment on your house.


   
Date: 25 Oct 2006 14:17:59
From: Brent
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
But Jim,

I feel like I have spent more than the down payment on a house on coffee
stuff...

:)

Brent


>>We are lucky to be able to buy high quality beans and to have access to
>>reasonably priced equipment to make top quality coffee at home from
>>green beans. I'll drink to that ! Wine or espresso ? Why not both !
>
> That part is right, buit you're missing my point. Youi can buy the
> best green coffee on the planet relatively cheaply - 60 odd cups for
> around $10. You can't buy either the grapes or the wine for 60 glasses
> from say Chateau geaux or Yquem for anything less than the down
> payment on your house.




    
Date: 24 Oct 2006 15:25:48
From:
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:17:59 +1300, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:

>But Jim,
>
>I feel like I have spent more than the down payment on a house on
coffee
>stuff...
>
>:)
>
>Brent
>
Coffee stuff is not coffee beans of course:). Our high quality
roasted coffee costs about 75 per cup and that includes postage. Even
COSTCO Woodbridge Chardonnay according to my (might be addled) brain
costs $1.25 per wine glass.

And I could explain why some coffee does cost more. Because it costs
more to get the bean to your cup for a slew of reasons not limited to
land costs,tax costs, picking costs, processing costs (ours just went
up to $.25/cherry this year), US Dept of Ag safety rules, *fair
everything* rules, etc.. Balance some of those issues against the
very cheap coffees and why they are so cheap. And of course supply is
often determined by land available, workers available, processing
facilities available and unfortunately the accepted standard of
living.

Just my $.02.

aloha,
cea
--smithfarms.com
farmers of pure kona
roast beans to kona to email


     
Date: 25 Oct 2006 16:34:06
From: Brent
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
I saw an interesting 15 kg roaster for sale...

I even know where I could fit it, it wouldn't involve to big a hole in a
wall, and the wall was put in to come out...

Now of course the problme as you get bigger roasters is they require bigger
amounts of green, so green bean should count as "stuff"!!

I have no idea why I have no spare cash...

Brent


>
>>But Jim,
>>
>>I feel like I have spent more than the down payment on a house on
> coffee
>>stuff...
>>
>>:)
>>
>>Brent
>>
> Coffee stuff is not coffee beans of course:). Our high quality
> roasted coffee costs about 75 per cup and that includes postage. Even
> COSTCO Woodbridge Chardonnay according to my (might be addled) brain
> costs $1.25 per wine glass.
>
> And I could explain why some coffee does cost more. Because it costs
> more to get the bean to your cup for a slew of reasons not limited to
> land costs,tax costs, picking costs, processing costs (ours just went
> up to $.25/cherry this year), US Dept of Ag safety rules, *fair
> everything* rules, etc.. Balance some of those issues against the
> very cheap coffees and why they are so cheap. And of course supply is
> often determined by land available, workers available, processing
> facilities available and unfortunately the accepted standard of
> living.
>
> Just my $.02.
>
> aloha,
> cea
> --smithfarms.com
> farmers of pure kona
> roast beans to kona to email




      
Date: 25 Oct 2006 20:24:34
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
Finding the keyboard operational
Brent entered:

> I saw an interesting 15 kg roaster for sale...
>
> I even know where I could fit it, it wouldn't involve to big a hole
> in a wall, and the wall was put in to come out...
>
> Now of course the problme as you get bigger roasters is they require
> bigger amounts of green, so green bean should count as "stuff"!!
>
> I have no idea why I have no spare cash...
>
> Brent
Have you ever heard that a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour
money? With a roaster, the money goes up the stack. (thru the cyclone and
the afterburner if needed)
Also with your own roaster, you will want more beans.
So if you have no spare cash now, buy a big roaster and then you will really
won't have any cash. (but some really great coffee)
Bob (with a 10kg roaster)
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com



       
Date: 27 Oct 2006 10:59:46
From: Brent
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
> Finding the keyboard operational
> Brent entered:
>
>> I saw an interesting 15 kg roaster for sale...
>>
>> I even know where I could fit it, it wouldn't involve to big a hole
>> in a wall, and the wall was put in to come out...
>>
>> Now of course the problme as you get bigger roasters is they require
>> bigger amounts of green, so green bean should count as "stuff"!!
>>
>> I have no idea why I have no spare cash...
>>
>> Brent
> Have you ever heard that a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour
> money? With a roaster, the money goes up the stack. (thru the cyclone and
> the afterburner if needed)
> Also with your own roaster, you will want more beans.
> So if you have no spare cash now, buy a big roaster and then you will
> really won't have any cash. (but some really great coffee)
> Bob (with a 10kg roaster)

Bob,

ah, thats why I think green should count as stuff...

we have a 5kg roaster, and plenty enough green to go with it - adding a 10
or 15 wouldn't be an issue green wise.

Do I count the building as coffee stuff?

Brent




    
Date: 24 Oct 2006 21:21:02
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees

"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4q7rb8Fm2m9iU1@individual.net...
> But Jim,
>
> I feel like I have spent more than the down payment on a house on
> coffee stuff...
>
> :)
>
> Brent
>
>
>>>We are lucky to be able to buy high quality beans and to have access
>>>to
>>>reasonably priced equipment to make top quality coffee at home from
>>>green beans. I'll drink to that ! Wine or espresso ? Why not both
>>>!
>>
>> That part is right, buit you're missing my point. Youi can buy the
>> best green coffee on the planet relatively cheaply - 60 odd cups for
>> around $10. You can't buy either the grapes or the wine for 60
>> glasses
>> from say Chateau geaux or Yquem for anything less than the down
>> payment on your house.
>
>

You can say that again Brent, LOL!! {;-D
Cheers!
Craig.



 
Date: 24 Oct 2006 13:10:38
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
Mostly, I'm trying to fathom the arbitrary price points that I, and
maybe others, assign to the two commodities. For example, a "table
wine" (one tin category with its attendant rules) must not cost more
than $10--nearer 8 is more correct--and may be bought by the case.
(Don't argue with me, that's the rule!) An "event wine" is bought by
the bottle for a particular meal or occasion; it may cost $15--or
more. How much more? I've gone into the $50-s in restaurants (where
there were few other options), but I don't believe I've ever shelled
out that much at my local wine merchant. Did I say arbitrary?

So my question, and the wine/coffee comparison, is really about
less-than-rational decision making, with no presumption that our
behavior stands up to any sort of logical scrutiny. In sum, I
completely agree with each of the three very disparate posts above:
a)$5 makes sense; b)tin probably doesn't appreciate (with great
consistency) higher quality greens; and c) not being such a knee-jerk
tightwad might open up some new coffee taste possibilities once I get
used to that quality.

I knew that.

tin




jim schulman wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:15:33 -0600, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerde@snipThisPleaseHotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >So, your $12 expenditure on some green coffee might not produce the same
> >results in the cup as Jim Schulman's purchase of the same beans.
>
> FYI, tin is a very good roaster.
>
> On the larger question of how much is it worthwhile to pay for green:
>
> 1. Farmers barely get subsistence from regular quality coffees, and
> the price of specialty is still strongly coupled to C grade. A lot of
> roasters, including many we're reviewing, are willing to pay well
> above ket for well-prepped beans, mainly to ensire that good
> farmers stay on the land, and good land stays in production. If buyers
> are willing to pay more than they need in order to ensure safe
> supplies, and the millenium hasn't broken out while I wasn't looking,
> it usually means things must be pretty awful for the sellers.
>
> 2. The price of green is only a small part of the cost of a cup. This
> is not just true in a cafe, but also for homeroasters if they count
> the opportunity costs of the time they spend roasting and preparing
> coffee.
>
> 3. Sometimes prices jump due to nothing but corruption. Kenya green is
> now about 50% more than it was two years ago. This is probably not
> doing the Kenyan farmers much good, since, according to one version
> (the ministry that lost control of the trade), it is going to a new
> state cartel of authorizedt raders and a few divisions of the Kenyan
> army to keep the farmers from running away from gulag plantations. In
> the other version (from the ministry that now does control the trade),
> farmers are now benefitting directly from the world ket with far
> fewer intermediaries.
>
> 4. Sometimes prices jump because of new products. The "relationship
> coffee" roasters are offering specially prepped micro-lots which cost
> about twice as much green as regular coffees from the same region. On
> average, the quality of these micro-lots is a good deal higher than
> regular lots; however, there are always regular lots brought in that
> are just as good as any of these super-specialties. This is a bit like
> buying $10 to $15 wine -- occasionally one finds a gem that can stand
> up to anything at any price; but it's a bit like hitting the lottery
> -- if you're looking for a great wine, it may be cheaper in the long
> run to pay the freight once, than to have a half dozen bargain bottles
> waiting their turn for the stewpot.



  
Date: 24 Oct 2006 16:50:12
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
On 24 Oct 2006 13:10:38 -0700, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Mostly, I'm trying to fathom the arbitrary price points that I, and
>maybe others, assign to the two commodities. For example, a "table
>wine" (one tin category with its attendant rules) must not cost more
>than $10--nearer 8 is more correct--and may be bought by the case.
>(Don't argue with me, that's the rule!) An "event wine" is bought by
>the bottle for a particular meal or occasion; it may cost $15--or
>more. How much more? I've gone into the $50-s in restaurants (where
>there were few other options), but I don't believe I've ever shelled
>out that much at my local wine merchant. Did I say arbitrary?

I have roughly the same rules for wine (although I've raised my
tablewine limit to $12 this year, and my event wine to $25). I'd love
to have Richebourgs and TBAs with my dinner, but I'd need to raise my
income by a factor of 10 to 100 to afford it. With wines costing up to
$1000 per bottle, this is true for just about anyone; and any sort of
budget rule is inherently arbitrary.

The nice thing about green coffee is at current prices I **can**
easily afford the Richebourgs and Trockebeerenauslesen several times a
day for the rest of my life with no financial pain whatsoever (I spend
a lot more on my glass of budget wine with dinner, and glass of
semi-budget wine in the evening - and given the way the price/quality
is moving, I'd be pinching there first).

That is likely to change, but I intend to enjoy the ride while it
lasts. It'll be nice to bore the kids by rasping "I used to drink
Yrgacheffe every day" when I'm a dithering old coot.


  
Date: 25 Oct 2006 10:22:56
From: Brent
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
Of course, it still comes down to whether or not you like the coffee...

> Mostly, I'm trying to fathom the arbitrary price points that I, and
> maybe others, assign to the two commodities. For example, a "table
> wine" (one tin category with its attendant rules) must not cost more
> than $10--nearer 8 is more correct--and may be bought by the case.
> (Don't argue with me, that's the rule!) An "event wine" is bought by
> the bottle for a particular meal or occasion; it may cost $15--or
> more. How much more? I've gone into the $50-s in restaurants (where
> there were few other options), but I don't believe I've ever shelled
> out that much at my local wine merchant. Did I say arbitrary?
>
> So my question, and the wine/coffee comparison, is really about
> less-than-rational decision making, with no presumption that our
> behavior stands up to any sort of logical scrutiny. In sum, I
> completely agree with each of the three very disparate posts above:
> a)$5 makes sense; b)tin probably doesn't appreciate (with great
> consistency) higher quality greens; and c) not being such a knee-jerk
> tightwad might open up some new coffee taste possibilities once I get
> used to that quality.
>
> I knew that.
>
> tin
>
>
>
>
> jim schulman wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:15:33 -0600, "Ken Fox"
>>
>> >
>> >So, your $12 expenditure on some green coffee might not produce the same
>> >results in the cup as Jim Schulman's purchase of the same beans.
>>
>> FYI, tin is a very good roaster.
>>
>> On the larger question of how much is it worthwhile to pay for green:
>>
>> 1. Farmers barely get subsistence from regular quality coffees, and
>> the price of specialty is still strongly coupled to C grade. A lot of
>> roasters, including many we're reviewing, are willing to pay well
>> above ket for well-prepped beans, mainly to ensire that good
>> farmers stay on the land, and good land stays in production. If buyers
>> are willing to pay more than they need in order to ensure safe
>> supplies, and the millenium hasn't broken out while I wasn't looking,
>> it usually means things must be pretty awful for the sellers.
>>
>> 2. The price of green is only a small part of the cost of a cup. This
>> is not just true in a cafe, but also for homeroasters if they count
>> the opportunity costs of the time they spend roasting and preparing
>> coffee.
>>
>> 3. Sometimes prices jump due to nothing but corruption. Kenya green is
>> now about 50% more than it was two years ago. This is probably not
>> doing the Kenyan farmers much good, since, according to one version
>> (the ministry that lost control of the trade), it is going to a new
>> state cartel of authorizedt raders and a few divisions of the Kenyan
>> army to keep the farmers from running away from gulag plantations. In
>> the other version (from the ministry that now does control the trade),
>> farmers are now benefitting directly from the world ket with far
>> fewer intermediaries.
>>
>> 4. Sometimes prices jump because of new products. The "relationship
>> coffee" roasters are offering specially prepped micro-lots which cost
>> about twice as much green as regular coffees from the same region. On
>> average, the quality of these micro-lots is a good deal higher than
>> regular lots; however, there are always regular lots brought in that
>> are just as good as any of these super-specialties. This is a bit like
>> buying $10 to $15 wine -- occasionally one finds a gem that can stand
>> up to anything at any price; but it's a bit like hitting the lottery
>> -- if you're looking for a great wine, it may be cheaper in the long
>> run to pay the freight once, than to have a half dozen bargain bottles
>> waiting their turn for the stewpot.
>




 
Date: 24 Oct 2006 04:29:13
From: JulesG
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
Ken Fox wrote:

> In my view, the comparison with wine is not apt for coffee, especially when
> bought green, as there are simply too many variables with coffee compared to
> wine.

Ken, I think the comparison with wine is valid but it should be made at
the same level. One should not compare green coffee with bottled wine
but with grapes. If you make wine, using high quality grapes, or
choosing between a blend or a SO, makes a huge difference in the
finished product.

Grapes are just like green beans. The end result will depend on the
expertise of the person that transforms it in a finished product. Also
similar, one has to be able to taste and appreciate the difference,
which is not always the case.



  
Date: 25 Oct 2006 09:17:14
From: Brent
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
> Ken Fox wrote:
>
>> In my view, the comparison with wine is not apt for coffee, especially
>> when
>> bought green, as there are simply too many variables with coffee compared
>> to
>> wine.
>
> Ken, I think the comparison with wine is valid but it should be made at
> the same level. One should not compare green coffee with bottled wine
> but with grapes. If you make wine, using high quality grapes, or
> choosing between a blend or a SO, makes a huge difference in the
> finished product.
>
>

which is what Ken said essentially...

As Jim points out, at present the price we pay for green does not
neceesarily reflect the cost of production, so to say $x is my top price in
time will severally limit your choices. I know that my cheapest green is
half the price of my most expensive green, and that after I have bought t he
green I ignore the purchase price and enjoy the coffee.

Actually, I ignore the purchase price when I buy as well - I just order what
I want, and as long as the invoice is about where I think it should be, I
don't really pay much more attention than that.

Brent




 
Date: 24 Oct 2006 01:15:33
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
"Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161655523.877727.315070@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> CoffeeCuppers.com (reviewers I trust more than others) has some
> enticing reviews of coffees from Paradise Roasters. Paradise sells a
> couple of these as greens for $10 and $12 per pound. In your opinion
> and practice do you spend this kind of money on green coffee that you
> roast for your espresso? I have, on occasion, spent the big bucks on
> some wonderful coffees (rationalizing by comparing the per/cup cost to
> the wines on my shelf). And yes, I usually notice something very
> special. Nice.
>
> But the "delta" between these coffees and other quality coffees for
> half or less the price is not as significant as the between-shot
> variation that I experience as a competent-but-not-amazing home roaster
> and barista.
>
> What's your thought and practice? Do you have an informal max that's
> equivalent, for example, to "best wines under $10" or some such.
>
> tin
>

Hi tin,

In my view, the comparison with wine is not apt for coffee, especially when
bought green, as there are simply too many variables with coffee compared to
wine.

Assuming one buys a reasonably well made young wine from a reputable
merchant who cares enough to ensure that the wine was not subjected to
excess heat or other damage before he sold it to you, then you have only to
deal with such things as bottle variation and maybe a bad cork. The other
things, such as using an appropriate and clean glass without remaining
tinges of detergent are fairly easy to control. Buying an older wine is
more difficult and requires more time.

When you buy green coffee you assume responsibility for its roasting, which
is more or like taking it upon yourself to take a vineyard and turn it's
produce into wine; it is like having to decide when you will pick the grapes
and how to vinify it. And obviously, two different wine producers might
produce completely different results from the same plot of land. Throw in
the variables in espresso preparation (to which you allude above) and the
differences magnify further.

So, your $12 expenditure on some green coffee might not produce the same
results in the cup as Jim Schulman's purchase of the same beans.

These production variables are important but there are other important
differences with wine. The per cup costs for a good or better coffee are
almost always going to be less than for a good glass of wine, and the
multiplier between something that is good but not exceptional, and the very
top choice, is also less in the case of coffee, with the possible exception
of a few of those highly sought after COE lots.

One option available in coffee that is not available in wine, is the
existance of very interesting, very flavor rich single origins, that are
very cheap for what they are. You can buy any number of dry processed
Ethiopians, for example, that provide a very interesting cup at the price of
$4 or so per pound, green, if bought in quantities of say, 10lbs. The
comparable wine equivalent that would be drinkable, might be something at
around $10/bottle, and I doubt you could find comparable flavor interest in
a wine such as that. SO, you have really good and really cheap alternatives
in green coffee that you don't have in wine.

In trying to answer your question for myself, no, as of yet, I have not
bought any of the "boutique" expensive green coffees. I might try one as
time goes on but at the moment I'm pretty happy with what I can buy, in
quantity, for under $5 per pound.

ken




  
Date: 24 Oct 2006 13:56:24
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:15:33 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerde@snipThisPleaseHotmail.com > wrote:

>
>So, your $12 expenditure on some green coffee might not produce the same
>results in the cup as Jim Schulman's purchase of the same beans.

FYI, tin is a very good roaster.

On the larger question of how much is it worthwhile to pay for green:

1. Farmers barely get subsistence from regular quality coffees, and
the price of specialty is still strongly coupled to C grade. A lot of
roasters, including many we're reviewing, are willing to pay well
above ket for well-prepped beans, mainly to ensire that good
farmers stay on the land, and good land stays in production. If buyers
are willing to pay more than they need in order to ensure safe
supplies, and the millenium hasn't broken out while I wasn't looking,
it usually means things must be pretty awful for the sellers.

2. The price of green is only a small part of the cost of a cup. This
is not just true in a cafe, but also for homeroasters if they count
the opportunity costs of the time they spend roasting and preparing
coffee.

3. Sometimes prices jump due to nothing but corruption. Kenya green is
now about 50% more than it was two years ago. This is probably not
doing the Kenyan farmers much good, since, according to one version
(the ministry that lost control of the trade), it is going to a new
state cartel of authorizedt raders and a few divisions of the Kenyan
army to keep the farmers from running away from gulag plantations. In
the other version (from the ministry that now does control the trade),
farmers are now benefitting directly from the world ket with far
fewer intermediaries.

4. Sometimes prices jump because of new products. The "relationship
coffee" roasters are offering specially prepped micro-lots which cost
about twice as much green as regular coffees from the same region. On
average, the quality of these micro-lots is a good deal higher than
regular lots; however, there are always regular lots brought in that
are just as good as any of these super-specialties. This is a bit like
buying $10 to $15 wine -- occasionally one finds a gem that can stand
up to anything at any price; but it's a bit like hitting the lottery
-- if you're looking for a great wine, it may be cheaper in the long
run to pay the freight once, than to have a half dozen bargain bottles
waiting their turn for the stewpot.


   
Date: 25 Oct 2006 01:05:25
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:g8nsj2t5voegfr778jlkki3h1vcslsv5jn@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:15:33 -0600, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerde@snipThisPleaseHotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>So, your $12 expenditure on some green coffee might not produce the same
>>results in the cup as Jim Schulman's purchase of the same beans.
>
> FYI, tin is a very good roaster.

Of course I already knew THAT. Not only did he more or less invent the
HG/DD method, but I've heard reports from people (I believe including you)
that he's a good roaster.

FWIW, the above sentence of mine could be interpreted to mean his results
are different (than yours) but equal, or "better" than yours. It was simply
a generic comment that could be applied to anyone buying unfinished
ingredients, processing them in some way, and then observing their results
in comparison to those obtained by others who likewise have had to "process"
them beforehand.

ken




 
Date: 23 Oct 2006 21:14:26
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: About "expensive" green coffees
I usually buy greens in the $5-$7 range. By the time they are delivered,
that adds another $1-$1.50 per pound [unless you order huge amounts, which I
don't]. But really, the blends I prefer are less expensive then the single
origins that do not seem to be any better in the cup.

"Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161655523.877727.315070@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> What's your thought and practice? Do you have an informal max that's
> equivalent, for example, to "best wines under $10" or some such.
>
> tin
>