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Date: 12 Aug 2007 13:09:52
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Bitter for taste training
At some (several) points in the past, the topic of taste training
kits has come up.
Sweet, salty, and sour are easily covered - but bitter has lead to
discussion.

We just recently made some. guacamole. We always but a (very
small) pinch of dry epazote in - very small as that stuff is
extraordinarily bitter to my taste.

I hear the fresh stuff isn't so bad - but I've never seen it up
here.

Anybody who diffinitively understands what makes bitter a distinct
taste have any experience with dry epazote? Does it qualify?

--
M for N in address to mail reply




 
Date: 19 Aug 2007 04:18:38
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
At the risk of beating a dead horse - epazote isn't bitter to me.
I've used it dry and fresh (it grows vigorously in the US Pacific
Northwest, though I don't remember if it's perennial here.)

I picked up a "bitter melon" on a whim at the farmer's market this
morning, and I was given to understand that I can expect it to be
bitter indeed, at least if eaten uncooked.

Donn


 
Date: 15 Aug 2007 11:43:02
From:
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
On 14 A ustos, 23:22, jim schulman <jim_schul...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:09:52 -0400, Neal Reid <NealR...@Nagma.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >At some (several) points in the past, the topic of taste training
> >kits has come up.
> >Sweet, salty, and sour are easily covered - but bitter has lead to
> >discussion.
>
> >We just recently made some. guacamole. We always but a (very
> >small) pinch of dry epazote in - very small as that stuff is
> >extraordinarily bitter to my taste.
>
> >I hear the fresh stuff isn't so bad - but I've never seen it up
> >here.
>
> >Anybody who diffinitively understands what makes bitter a distinct
> >taste have any experience with dry epazote? Does it qualify?
>
> Bitter is not a bad taste, despite it's negative semantics. The
> Germans use the term "Edelbitter" or "nobly bitter" to describe good
> bitter tastes (e.g. chocolate, cinnamon). Italian and French has
> similar expressions, I'm told. Wormwood's primary use in the past has
> been to wean babies, so I doubt it qualifies as a noble bitter.
>
> Gentian root, the major taste in Campari, is a frequently used "noble
> bitter" flavor. I have some extract, it works fairly well, and tastes
> fairly pleasant at low thresholds. Its major drawback for blind taste
> testing is that it is strongly red.

"Edelbitter" refers to the chocolate, not to "bitter". Bitter
chocolate alone is already considered a good taste in not obese
circles of the society. Edelbitter means a bitter chocolate with even
more cacao content.

David



  
Date: 16 Aug 2007 08:02:20
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:43:02 -0700, yuvali300@gmail.com wrote:

>Edelbitter" refers to the chocolate, not to "bitter". Bitter
>chocolate alone is already considered a good taste in not obese
>circles of the society. Edelbitter means a bitter chocolate with even
>more cacao content.

I've heard the term used in other contexts, along with Zartbitter, as
a way of describing foods as bitter in a good way.


   
Date: 17 Aug 2007 01:05:37
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training

"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:7ji8c31l61pk26hgo58bh98e88g6o9347s@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 11:43:02 -0700, yuvali300@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>Edelbitter" refers to the chocolate, not to "bitter". Bitter
>>chocolate alone is already considered a good taste in not obese
>>circles of the society. Edelbitter means a bitter chocolate with even
>>more cacao content.
>
> I've heard the term used in other contexts, along with Zartbitter, as
> a way of describing foods as bitter in a good way.

Zartbitter, like Edelbitter, is a word which is used only in relation to
chocolate. It is not used to describe the taste of any other substances
(unless they happen to taste like chocolate). As yuvali pointed out in his
post, Edelbitter is a bitter chocolate with a high cacao content.
Zartbitter has a somewhat lower cacao content, but still more than an
ordinary milk chocolate. No one who speaks German considers Edelbitter or
Zartbitter to be special portions of a general spectrum of taste.
If you'd like confirmation of this, have a look at:
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed§Hdr=on&spellToler=on&search=Zartbitter&relink=on

--
alan



 
Date: 14 Aug 2007 15:22:45
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:09:52 -0400, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca >
wrote:

>At some (several) points in the past, the topic of taste training
>kits has come up.
>Sweet, salty, and sour are easily covered - but bitter has lead to
>discussion.
>
>We just recently made some. guacamole. We always but a (very
>small) pinch of dry epazote in - very small as that stuff is
>extraordinarily bitter to my taste.
>
>I hear the fresh stuff isn't so bad - but I've never seen it up
>here.
>
>Anybody who diffinitively understands what makes bitter a distinct
>taste have any experience with dry epazote? Does it qualify?


Bitter is not a bad taste, despite it's negative semantics. The
Germans use the term "Edelbitter" or "nobly bitter" to describe good
bitter tastes (e.g. chocolate, cinnamon). Italian and French has
similar expressions, I'm told. Wormwood's primary use in the past has
been to wean babies, so I doubt it qualifies as a noble bitter.

Gentian root, the major taste in Campari, is a frequently used "noble
bitter" flavor. I have some extract, it works fairly well, and tastes
fairly pleasant at low thresholds. Its major drawback for blind taste
testing is that it is strongly red.


  
Date: 17 Aug 2007 10:34:45
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
In article <ud34c3p4k9uof1qrle5jldhrmq6hjrh720@4ax.com >,
jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

> >Anybody who diffinitively understands what makes bitter a distinct
> >taste have any experience with dry epazote? Does it qualify?
>
>
> Bitter is not a bad taste, despite it's negative semantics. The
> Germans use the term "Edelbitter" or "nobly bitter" to describe good
> bitter tastes (e.g. chocolate, cinnamon). Italian and French has
> similar expressions, I'm told. Wormwood's primary use in the past has
> been to wean babies, so I doubt it qualifies as a noble bitter.
>
> Gentian root, the major taste in Campari, is a frequently used "noble
> bitter" flavor. I have some extract, it works fairly well, and tastes
> fairly pleasant at low thresholds. Its major drawback for blind taste
> testing is that it is strongly red.

Which leaves the question open... I'm the proverbial, "I don't
know much about taste - but I know what I like."

I have the opportunity ti 'tune' a Cimbali M2- more tunable
settings than I know what to do with. As a precursor, I'd like to
'tune' my tasting (with the longer term goal of working with my
roaster to offer taste training for coffee tasting at his store
front).

I feel somewhat presumptuous thinking I can work out taste
training by reading - but I haven't found a feasible opportunity
to GET trained so I thought I'd start on myself and see what
happens...

Sweet, sour, and salty are covered - but I've never really been
clear on the sour/bitter differential (other than where they
differ in the part of the mouth most affected) so I'm fishing for
a bitter sample.

Is Gentian root the same stuff used in microscopy slide
preparation? I know I have some of that lieing around...

--
M for N in address to mail reply


 
Date: 12 Aug 2007 19:14:28
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training

"Neal Reid" <NealReid@Nagma.ca > wrote in message
news:NealReid-9080F3.13095212082007@ispnews.usenetserver.com...
> At some (several) points in the past, the topic of taste training
> kits has come up.
> Sweet, salty, and sour are easily covered - but bitter has lead to
> discussion.
>
> We just recently made some. guacamole. We always but a (very
> small) pinch of dry epazote in - very small as that stuff is
> extraordinarily bitter to my taste.
>
> I hear the fresh stuff isn't so bad - but I've never seen it up
> here.
>
> Anybody who diffinitively understands what makes bitter a distinct
> taste have any experience with dry epazote? Does it qualify?
>

"Bitter" is not necessarily the same as "unpleasant". Epazote's flavor is
variously likened to petroleum, camphor, citrus, and so on, none of which is
markedly "bitter".

A better bet for "bitter" would be wormwood (Artemisia absinthium),
described by one source as " . . . a strong bitter that affects the
bittersensing taste buds on the tongue . . ."

(see
http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/wormwood?utm_term=wormwood&utm_medium=mw&utm_campaign=article )

If there aren't any herb/spice stores in your area that carry it, you can
probably buy it online.

--
Alan



  
Date: 13 Aug 2007 11:29:50
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
In article <o_Ivi.45556$Um6.18611@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net >,
"*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:

> A better bet for "bitter" would be wormwood (Artemisia absinthium),
> described by one source as " . . . a strong bitter that affects the
> bittersensing taste buds on the tongue . . ."

Odd article - odd that it is one of very few I've seen on wormwood
that don't give its Nahuatl/Spanish name - Epazote...

--
M for N in address to mail reply


   
Date: 13 Aug 2007 16:49:34
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training

"Neal Reid" <NealReid@Nagma.ca > wrote in message
news:NealReid-A34D22.11295013082007@ispnews.usenetserver.com...
> In article <o_Ivi.45556$Um6.18611@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
> "*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A better bet for "bitter" would be wormwood (Artemisia absinthium),
>> described by one source as " . . . a strong bitter that affects the
>> bittersensing taste buds on the tongue . . ."
>
> Odd article - odd that it is one of very few I've seen on wormwood
> that don't give its Nahuatl/Spanish name - Epazote...


It would be an odd article indeed that would give "epazote" as Spanish (or
"epazotl" as Nahuatl) names for wormwood. They are two different plants.

Wormwood (as I'd noted above) is Artemisia absinthium.

Epazote is Chenopodium ambrosioides.

Perhaps your confusion of the two lies in the fact that epazote is sometimes
also known as "wormseed".
--
Alan



    
Date: 17 Aug 2007 10:16:44
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
In article <j66wi.515$vw7.298@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com >,
"*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Perhaps your confusion of the two lies in the fact that epazote is sometimes
> also known as "wormseed".

** Blush **

--
M for N in address to mail reply


    
Date: 13 Aug 2007 18:39:08
From: Ken Blake
Subject: Re: Bitter for taste training
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:49:34 -0700, "*alan*"
<in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:

>
> "Neal Reid" <NealReid@Nagma.ca> wrote in message
> news:NealReid-A34D22.11295013082007@ispnews.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <o_Ivi.45556$Um6.18611@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net>,
> > "*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> A better bet for "bitter" would be wormwood (Artemisia absinthium),
> >> described by one source as " . . . a strong bitter that affects the
> >> bittersensing taste buds on the tongue . . ."
> >
> > Odd article - odd that it is one of very few I've seen on wormwood
> > that don't give its Nahuatl/Spanish name - Epazote...
>
>
> It would be an odd article indeed that would give "epazote" as Spanish (or
> "epazotl" as Nahuatl) names for wormwood. They are two different plants.
>
> Wormwood (as I'd noted above) is Artemisia absinthium.
>
> Epazote is Chenopodium ambrosioides.



Not only are they different plants, but they are not even in the same
family.

--
Ken Blake
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