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Date: 03 Jul 2007 01:31:54
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
A friend brought over 6 new in the box Gaggia Classic machines that he's
giving to family & friends as Christmas gifts this year. He asked me to
bench-test each one & make sure they were working as designed.

The brew temps were checked (190F low & 210 high). Water debits were
checked. And we had fun developing different tests for things you wouldn't
even think of. How about a test to see how quickly water flows through the
filters (using a one-gallon jug, we rigged a holder for the baskets, filled
the bucket with 1/2 gallon of water, & timed how long it took to empty the
jug), or how about decibel tests for these home machines? We basically went
nuts & based on what we found, there is too little attention paid to quality
control at the Gaggia plant in Milano.

One thing I found that confirms what others have noted - Gaggia doesn't test
the brew pressure before they ship machines, or is it that they
intentionally set the machines to run at full bore so customers won't be
complaining that their new machine plugs up too easily? Of the six machines
the lowest was set at 166 psi (11 bar) and the others maxed out my 200 psi
(13.79 bar) pressure gauge.

This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should look
into a class action lawsuit. Just to make sure of my results I had another
friend buy a new Gaggia Espresso from another online dealer & it's brew
pressure was set at 230 psi (11.5 bar).

Maybe I won't be recommending Gaggia machines quite so enthusiastically in
the future.
--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.






 
Date: 23 Jul 2007 07:59:35
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
On Jul 22, 12:46 pm, Steve Ackman <st...@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com >
wrote:
> In <46a20f65$0$4871$4c368...@roadrunner.com>, on Sat, 21 Jul 2007
> 09:51:32 -0400, Crabman, crab...@dud.net wrote:
>
> > Tamp is the only thing you can actually control the pressure with.
>
> Grind (particle size) has much more effect than
> tamp.

Running into a 58mm PF was a relatively huge experience. I had to come
up with a $20 bill for 58mm aluminum tamp just to accommodate the
thing (no more barber shop brush handles glued to plastic plates).
What's interesting is how little that tamp plays now in preparation.
I put the PF under and directly catch the grinds. Roughly smooth any
pile up flat with my smallest -a finger (p-i-m-a in classical guitar
notation). Slap it down once, not especially hard, in settling things
across. Edge-of-coin tamping: Spin a coin on its end and before
coming to rest, while still spinning least from its vertical plane of
origin, to it's horizontal axis, then, such that momentum is imparted
to where the same technique is derived to apply to the tamp (I first
saw the method posted by Herr Ken S.). Significant pressure is not
necessary, only in following momentum.

What's curious is if I deviate by adding downward force on the tamp,
perhaps too vigorously to polish, or otherwise deviate from the
technique -- I'm very much apt to loose resistance to water pressure
with a resulting under-extraction. (Grinder can't be considered,
Capresso Infinity maxed out for finest, which is simply enough and
indeed fine, sic, for anything above to be unsatisfactory, or a
genuine pain likely to accommodate by any tamp).

Other alternative methods, some quite detailed, to heavier-handed
"pressure tamping" I seriously doubt are worth investigating. The
initial bed formed from the grinder at its present setting seems most
conducive to a means I'm given, an optimal, in requiring little effort
other than to affect a neat convex consistency across tamping
technique.



 
Date: 21 Jul 2007 13:55:04
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
There is confusion about pressure for making quality espresso; how to
achieve proper group pressure & how to accurately measure it. Here is
a simplified look at a pressure relief valve of the type usually found
in espresso machines: http://tinyurl.com/28w3cy


While it's true that pumps in these machines can produce 12 - 16 bar
pressure, that is not the optimum brew pressure for espresso.
Conventional wisdom holds that the best extraction is made at 9 bar
pressure in 25 - 30 seconds. This is measured with a properly packed
puck of coffee in the filter (dynamic pressure), not in a static
pressure situation such as occurs when a blank filter is used to back
flush a group.


To measure dynamic pressure at the group it's necessary to have a
gauge equipped with a bleed valve to permit the flow of water equal to
the amount and duration of an ideal shot; 1 - 1.5 ounces in 25 - 30
seconds. With such a gauge it's possible to set the OPV/PRV to draw
off pressure in excess of 9 bar. Then, and only then, after the
dynamic pressure is accurately set to 9 bar, can the grind & tamp can
be tailored, resulting in better shot quality.


The idea of adjusting grind & tamp to account for excess pressure is
wrong, because 1.5 oz shots pulled in 25 seconds at full pump pressure
will be over extracted. Folks a lot smarter than me have worked the
science on proper espresso extraction methods. I for one believe them
when they state that the temp/pressure/time/volume elements can be
treated as constants; 1) 202F 2) 9 bar 3) 25 seconds 4) 1.5 oz.


After you've mastered the constants there are only be two variables
left to deal with, grind consistency & tamp pressure. Only the former
is *really* variable since each individual should find one tamp &
apply it from shot to shot as consistently as possible. That leaves
grind as the only *true* variable - increased & decreased according to
bean freshness & degree of roast, determined by shot duration of 25
seconds.

--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.



  
Date: 21 Jul 2007 18:55:44
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Robert Harmon wrote:
> There is confusion about pressure for making quality espresso; how to
> achieve proper group pressure & how to accurately measure it. Here is
> a simplified look at a pressure relief valve of the type usually found
> in espresso machines: http://tinyurl.com/28w3cy
>
>
> While it's true that pumps in these machines can produce 12 - 16 bar
> pressure, that is not the optimum brew pressure for espresso.
> Conventional wisdom holds that the best extraction is made at 9 bar
> pressure in 25 - 30 seconds. This is measured with a properly packed
> puck of coffee in the filter (dynamic pressure), not in a static
> pressure situation such as occurs when a blank filter is used to back
> flush a group.
>
>
> To measure dynamic pressure at the group it's necessary to have a
> gauge equipped with a bleed valve to permit the flow of water equal to
> the amount and duration of an ideal shot; 1 - 1.5 ounces in 25 - 30
> seconds. With such a gauge it's possible to set the OPV/PRV to draw
> off pressure in excess of 9 bar. Then, and only then, after the
> dynamic pressure is accurately set to 9 bar, can the grind & tamp can
> be tailored, resulting in better shot quality.
>
>
> The idea of adjusting grind & tamp to account for excess pressure is
> wrong, because 1.5 oz shots pulled in 25 seconds at full pump pressure
> will be over extracted. Folks a lot smarter than me have worked the
> science on proper espresso extraction methods. I for one believe them
> when they state that the temp/pressure/time/volume elements can be
> treated as constants; 1) 202F 2) 9 bar 3) 25 seconds 4) 1.5 oz.
>
>
> After you've mastered the constants there are only be two variables
> left to deal with, grind consistency & tamp pressure. Only the former
> is *really* variable since each individual should find one tamp &
> apply it from shot to shot as consistently as possible. That leaves
> grind as the only *true* variable - increased & decreased according to
> bean freshness & degree of roast, determined by shot duration of 25
> seconds.
>
> --
> Robert Harmon
> --
> http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
>
> http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
>
> http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.
>

OKay, you're incorrect.
If you tamp too much you need more than 9 bar to pass water, if you
don't tamp enough, then you'll never reach 9 bar, NO MATTER WHAT. Now if
your saying average or mean pressure over time then I understand,
however you still need MORE than 9bar to achieve this average, and it
makes no difference how much more you have available. You'll only use
what you need based on the tamp and orifices. Simple flow rate available
and restriction to flow.

>"I for one believe them
> when they state that the temp/pressure/time/volume elements can be
> treated as constants; 1) 202F 2) 9 bar 3) 25 seconds 4) 1.5 oz

What you describe is an overall "power" function NOT pressure function.

Your concept of "dynamic" pressure makes no sense. Pressure is pressure.
Incidentally, this is what I do, I am an Automation Engineer and fluid
power specialist with 25 years experience.

Can you make better espresso? Most definitely, but you don't really have
the concept correct of pressure. In fact you don't really understand the
formula you quoted.

Clay


   
Date: 22 Jul 2007 04:29:36
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Crabman <crabman@dud.net > wrote in news:46a28ef1$0$4662
$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:


> OKay, you're incorrect.
> If you tamp too much you need more than 9 bar to pass water, if you
> don't tamp enough, then you'll never reach 9 bar, NO MATTER WHAT. Now
if
> your saying average or mean pressure over time then I understand,
> however you still need MORE than 9bar to achieve this average, and it
> makes no difference how much more you have available. You'll only use
> what you need based on the tamp and orifices. Simple flow rate
available
> and restriction to flow.
>
> >"I for one believe them
> > when they state that the temp/pressure/time/volume elements can be
> > treated as constants; 1) 202F 2) 9 bar 3) 25 seconds 4) 1.5 oz
>
> What you describe is an overall "power" function NOT pressure function.
>
> Your concept of "dynamic" pressure makes no sense. Pressure is
pressure.
> Incidentally, this is what I do, I am an Automation Engineer and fluid
> power specialist with 25 years experience.
>
> Can you make better espresso? Most definitely, but you don't really
have
> the concept correct of pressure. In fact you don't really understand
the
> formula you quoted.
>
> Clay
>

Howdy Clay!

I may be incorrect, but for me the reasoning behind using a gauge & bleed
valve to establish 9 bar group pressure is to simulate the ideal, albeit
arbitrary, brewing conditions necessary to determine the proper grind.


I acknowledge that there is a direct cause & effect between the pump
volume/pressure & the orifice size of the bleed valve that introduces
variables into the readings at the gauge; such as, the larger the valve
orifice the less volume/pressure is needed to output a simulated shot.
Likewise, the smaller the orifice the greater the volume/pressure needed
to output a simulated shot.


What I did was based on adjusting the bleed valve orifice while the test
gauge assembly was attached to a machine that produces great shots. In
other words, I adjusted the bleed valve orifice to a specific setting
that produced the preferred volume in the desired time and then locked
the orifice in place using a LocTite. The orifice never changes from test
to test, so I now have a test shot equal to a consistent grind & tamp. I
can adjust any machine to 9 bar and know that it is a measurement of
pressure that is consistent with that of a machine known to produce great
esspresso.


Does that explanation better satisfy the engineer in you? How would you
better describe the use of a gauge to set brew pressure by adjusting the
OPV/PRV?

Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.


    
Date: 21 Jul 2007 23:45:43
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Crabman <crabman@dud.net> wrote in news:46a28ef1$0$4662
> $4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>
>
>> OKay, you're incorrect.
>> If you tamp too much you need more than 9 bar to pass water, if you
>> don't tamp enough, then you'll never reach 9 bar, NO MATTER WHAT. Now
> if
>> your saying average or mean pressure over time then I understand,
>> however you still need MORE than 9bar to achieve this average, and it
>> makes no difference how much more you have available. You'll only use
>> what you need based on the tamp and orifices. Simple flow rate
> available
>> and restriction to flow.
>>
>>> "I for one believe them
>>> when they state that the temp/pressure/time/volume elements can be
>>> treated as constants; 1) 202F 2) 9 bar 3) 25 seconds 4) 1.5 oz
>> What you describe is an overall "power" function NOT pressure function.
>>
>> Your concept of "dynamic" pressure makes no sense. Pressure is
> pressure.
>> Incidentally, this is what I do, I am an Automation Engineer and fluid
>> power specialist with 25 years experience.
>>
>> Can you make better espresso? Most definitely, but you don't really
> have
>> the concept correct of pressure. In fact you don't really understand
> the
>> formula you quoted.
>>
>> Clay
>>
>
> Howdy Clay!
>
> I may be incorrect, but for me the reasoning behind using a gauge & bleed
> valve to establish 9 bar group pressure is to simulate the ideal, albeit
> arbitrary, brewing conditions necessary to determine the proper grind.
>
>
> I acknowledge that there is a direct cause & effect between the pump
> volume/pressure & the orifice size of the bleed valve that introduces
> variables into the readings at the gauge; such as, the larger the valve
> orifice the less volume/pressure is needed to output a simulated shot.
> Likewise, the smaller the orifice the greater the volume/pressure needed
> to output a simulated shot.
>
>
> What I did was based on adjusting the bleed valve orifice while the test
> gauge assembly was attached to a machine that produces great shots. In
> other words, I adjusted the bleed valve orifice to a specific setting
> that produced the preferred volume in the desired time and then locked
> the orifice in place using a LocTite. The orifice never changes from test
> to test, so I now have a test shot equal to a consistent grind & tamp. I
> can adjust any machine to 9 bar and know that it is a measurement of
> pressure that is consistent with that of a machine known to produce great
> esspresso.
>
>
> Does that explanation better satisfy the engineer in you? How would you
> better describe the use of a gauge to set brew pressure by adjusting the
> OPV/PRV?
>
> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> newsgroup!) Harmon

If in fact the orifice does not change, AND the FLOW or volume of water
does not change, then the laws of known physics says the pressure will
be exactly the same regardless of the PRV setting. It sounds to me like
you got the orifice fixed, if so then the only thing that can increase
the pressure is higher water flow from the pump trying to force more
water through it. I hope you see where this is going. Your original
statements about the Gaggia pressure being too high is still false. You
basically proved they have higher water volume available and that their
relief valves are set higher than some others. There is no possible way
for any manufacturer to know what size effective orifice you are going
to use when making "your" espresso.

> Does that explanation better satisfy the engineer in you? How would you
> better describe the use of a gauge to set brew pressure by adjusting the
> OPV/PRV?

This is basically what started my curiosity into this subject. Being an
inquisitive person I thought maybe I didn't understand exactly how
espresso was made and that I would learn something new. When you
explained what you did in your test, I had to question your conclusion.
Please keep in mind, I'm not knocking what you've done. I admire when
people do testing and experimenting.

I can tell you this about Over pressure valves and Pressure relief
valves, they ONLY work to relieve or limit down stream pressure from
becoming TOO high, and are ONLY used for safety in this type
application. They have to be set HIGH enough to allow enough pressure to
be available, without allowing dangerous or damaging levels to be
present. You cannot however use them "universally" to set your brew
pressure because that's determined by flow available and effective
orifice as well.

Unless I am missing something in the process of espresso making.

Water is heated and then forced through the coffee grounds by the pump,
correct? If so I stand by what I said, and that means the your comments
about the Gaggias are wrong.

Clay


     
Date: 22 Jul 2007 07:24:22
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Crabman <crabman@dud.net > wrote in
news:46a2d2fd$0$8964$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

>
> > Does that explanation better satisfy the engineer in you? How would
> > you better describe the use of a gauge to set brew pressure by
> > adjusting the OPV/PRV?
>
> This is basically what started my curiosity into this subject. Being
> an inquisitive person I thought maybe I didn't understand exactly how
> espresso was made and that I would learn something new. When you
> explained what you did in your test, I had to question your
> conclusion. Please keep in mind, I'm not knocking what you've done. I
> admire when people do testing and experimenting.
>
> I can tell you this about Over pressure valves and Pressure relief
> valves, they ONLY work to relieve or limit down stream pressure from
> becoming TOO high, and are ONLY used for safety in this type
> application. They have to be set HIGH enough to allow enough pressure
> to be available, without allowing dangerous or damaging levels to be
> present. You cannot however use them "universally" to set your brew
> pressure because that's determined by flow available and effective
> orifice as well.
>
> Unless I am missing something in the process of espresso making.
>
> Water is heated and then forced through the coffee grounds by the
> pump, correct? If so I stand by what I said, and that means the your
> comments about the Gaggias are wrong.
>
> Clay
>

Howdy Clay!
Are you implying that your knowledge is superior to the engineers at
Procon & Fluid-o-Tech and that they are misrepresenting their products
when they refer to using built-in pressure relief valves or by-pass
valves to regulate pressure? No, my observations & conclusions are not
wrong because adjusting the OPV/PRV does lower or raise the pressure in
the group. I have seen this with my own eyes, as have others.

If pump volume is a constant (it is) & the flow of coffee from the group
filter is a constant (not exactly, but very close if attention has been
paid to details), the machine must have variable pressure capabilities or
over extraction will constantly result. On machines with rotary pumps the
adjustment is made to the valve built into the pump. Machines with
oscillating pumps sometimes have valves at the pump, but most often the
valve is attached to the boiler.

As tension on the spring inside the OPV/PRV increases the pressure in the
group rises because less pressure is being bled off. Likewise, when the
tension on the spring decreases the valve is more easily opened by
pressure, reducing the pressure available in the group.

So, I guess the bottom line is I can't buy your arguments that OPV/PRV's
cannot be used to regulate brew pressure. Your arguments don't make sense
logically or empirically. Or to put it another way; if you're correct
that pressure in the group isn't adjustable then the research by Illy &
others is completely wrong.


Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.


      
Date: 22 Jul 2007 09:49:04
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Crabman <crabman@dud.net> wrote in
> news:46a2d2fd$0$8964$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>
>>> Does that explanation better satisfy the engineer in you? How would
>>> you better describe the use of a gauge to set brew pressure by
>>> adjusting the OPV/PRV?
>> This is basically what started my curiosity into this subject. Being
>> an inquisitive person I thought maybe I didn't understand exactly how
>> espresso was made and that I would learn something new. When you
>> explained what you did in your test, I had to question your
>> conclusion. Please keep in mind, I'm not knocking what you've done. I
>> admire when people do testing and experimenting.
>>
>> I can tell you this about Over pressure valves and Pressure relief
>> valves, they ONLY work to relieve or limit down stream pressure from
>> becoming TOO high, and are ONLY used for safety in this type
>> application. They have to be set HIGH enough to allow enough pressure
>> to be available, without allowing dangerous or damaging levels to be
>> present. You cannot however use them "universally" to set your brew
>> pressure because that's determined by flow available and effective
>> orifice as well.
>>
>> Unless I am missing something in the process of espresso making.
>>
>> Water is heated and then forced through the coffee grounds by the
>> pump, correct? If so I stand by what I said, and that means the your
>> comments about the Gaggias are wrong.
>>
>> Clay
>>
>
> Howdy Clay!
> Are you implying that your knowledge is superior to the engineers at
> Procon & Fluid-o-Tech and that they are misrepresenting their products
> when they refer to using built-in pressure relief valves or by-pass
> valves to regulate pressure? No, my observations & conclusions are not
> wrong because adjusting the OPV/PRV does lower or raise the pressure in
> the group. I have seen this with my own eyes, as have others.
>
> If pump volume is a constant (it is) & the flow of coffee from the group
> filter is a constant (not exactly, but very close if attention has been
> paid to details), the machine must have variable pressure capabilities or
> over extraction will constantly result. On machines with rotary pumps the
> adjustment is made to the valve built into the pump. Machines with
> oscillating pumps sometimes have valves at the pump, but most often the
> valve is attached to the boiler.
>
> As tension on the spring inside the OPV/PRV increases the pressure in the
> group rises because less pressure is being bled off. Likewise, when the
> tension on the spring decreases the valve is more easily opened by
> pressure, reducing the pressure available in the group.
>
> So, I guess the bottom line is I can't buy your arguments that OPV/PRV's
> cannot be used to regulate brew pressure. Your arguments don't make sense
> logically or empirically. Or to put it another way; if you're correct
> that pressure in the group isn't adjustable then the research by Illy &
> others is completely wrong.
>
>
> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> newsgroup!) Harmon

I believe what I said is that they can't be set universally, based on
the variables you presented. If that's not what I said I apologize.
OPV/PRV do regulate pressure. I specifically mention that if pump flow
and restriction don't change, then pressure will not change. End of
discussion. The laws of physics don't change for anyone no matter the
experience or knowledge. There is something else I am missing in this
espresso equation.

You said "I for one believe them when they state that the
temp/pressure/time/volume elements can be treated as constants; 1) 202F
2) 9 bar 3) 25 seconds 4) 1.5 oz" I assume this is coffee volume? If
these are constant the water volume is not based on the tamp.

I suspect what these numbers mean is this: for a perfect espresso you
want water temp 202f, 9bar, 1.5oz coffee, and and extraction to be 25
seconds. 25 seconds here has to relate to the fixed volume of water for
extraction. Setting the pressure relief at 9 bar means the time for
extraction is going to change based on your tamp. In other words, if you
don't tamp hard enough, your total extraction time will go down(actually
you run out of water), and if you tamp too much extraction time will go
up if everything else is constant. Since we want time, pressure, and
water flow as a constant, then tamp is critical, and your fixed orifice
test is valid.

I am not trying to argue with you, and if I missed your explanation of
this, I again apologize. I am trying to understand "espresso",not
physics, and I think I have it now.

If you see an error in my explanation let me know.

Clay


       
Date: 22 Jul 2007 19:15:43
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Crabman <crabman@dud.net > wrote in
news:46a36053$0$29645$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>
> I am not trying to argue with you, and if I missed your explanation of
> this, I again apologize. I am trying to understand "espresso",not
> physics, and I think I have it now.
>
> If you see an error in my explanation let me know.
>
> Clay
>
Howdy Clay!

202F = brew temp (at the top of the puck)
9 bar = brew pressure (at the top of the puck)
1.5 oz = fluid in the cup (post puck)
25 seconds = duration of shot (switch on/switch off)

I believe that we were dancing around the same concepts, so I'll simplify the
formula; items #1 & #2 are constants, but #3 & #4 will vary by grind & tamp and
this is left for the barista to deal with.

The barista strives to use the same tamping pressure from shot to shot (light brush
to full hand-stand), so the true variable will be the adjustment of the grinder so
that the resulting pull will be within the parameters of items #3 & #4.

When a manufacturer sets the group pressure in excess of 9 bar they're throwing the
home barista a curve ball. In a futile attempt to achieve the 1.5 oz in 25 second
ideal cup, they'll over grind the beans and end up with over extracted espresso.

If the manufacturer sends the machine out with the OPV/PRV adjusted to less than 9
bar pressure the home barista, in another futile attempt at achieving the ideal
cup, will grind too coarsely and produce under extracted shots in the cup.

If you can accept my statement then let's drive a stake through the heart of this
thread & let it die.

{;-)

Robert (Semantics kill - conversations!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.


        
Date: 22 Jul 2007 13:37:23
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: Espresso brew pressure - what it is & how to measure it.
Robert Harmon wrote:


>>
> Howdy Clay!

>
> When a manufacturer sets the group pressure in excess of 9 bar they're throwing the
> home barista a curve ball. In a futile attempt to achieve the 1.5 oz in 25 second
> ideal cup, they'll over grind the beans and end up with over extracted espresso.
>
> If the manufacturer sends the machine out with the OPV/PRV adjusted to less than 9
> bar pressure the home barista, in another futile attempt at achieving the ideal
> cup, will grind too coarsely and produce under extracted shots in the cup.
>
> If you can accept my statement then let's drive a stake through the heart of this
> thread & let it die.
>
> {;-)
>
> Robert (Semantics kill - conversations!) Harmon

I'm clear now. Fair enough statements. This thread is dead to me! :)
Clay


 
Date: 21 Jul 2007 09:51:32
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
Robert Harmon wrote:

> One thing I found that confirms what others have noted - Gaggia doesn't test
> the brew pressure before they ship machines, or is it that they
> intentionally set the machines to run at full bore so customers won't be
> complaining that their new machine plugs up too easily? Of the six machines
> the lowest was set at 166 psi (11 bar) and the others maxed out my 200 psi
> (13.79 bar) pressure gauge.

The pressure is set to make sure it is HIGH enough to reach a certain
point. The orifices in the fittings, the tamp, and the holes in the
porta-filter determine the actual operating pressure. High test pressure
is GOOD, not bad. Provided that it is within safe levels. That's also
why there is an over pressure safety valve.
Tamp is the only thing you can actually control the pressure with.
Physics do apply here, unless maybe I don't fully understand how
espresso is made.

Clay




  
Date: 22 Jul 2007 12:46:05
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
In <46a20f65$0$4871$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >, on Sat, 21 Jul 2007
09:51:32 -0400, Crabman, crabman@dud.net wrote:

> Tamp is the only thing you can actually control the pressure with.

Grind (particle size) has much more effect than
tamp.


   
Date: 22 Jul 2007 19:20:25
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
Steve Ackman <steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com > wrote in
news:slrnfa72fs.8q7.steve@sorceror.wizard.dyndns.org:

> In <46a20f65$0$4871$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, on Sat, 21 Jul 2007
> 09:51:32 -0400, Crabman, crabman@dud.net wrote:
>
>> Tamp is the only thing you can actually control the pressure with.
>
> Grind (particle size) has much more effect than
> tamp.
>

Not neceassarily so. They're actually part & parcel of the same element -
consistency of particle contact in the puck. It's just that tamp is the
easier of the two to control from shot to shot & roast to roast. So a
barista will find a tamp that suits them & maintain that tamp as a constant
for eternity, leaving the grinding of the beans as the only variable to be
dealt with.

Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.


 
Date: 04 Jul 2007 14:34:55
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
The important thing -- and the ONLY meaningful measure -- is the
quaility of the shot.





  
Date: 04 Jul 2007 21:46:13
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
OK Bub, I'll buy that argument. But, how do you get there if the machine's
not properly set up in the first place? The PID's for your conversions are
preset to some standard preset, so why don't you just stuff them in & send
them out the door? I'd bet that *most* of your clients wouldn't appreciate
the difference anyway. Is it because you know that coffee should be
extracted within a few degrees of 198F, and even if your customers wouldn't
know the difference you do?
--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.
"lockjaw" <davebobbl@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1183584895.033928.52330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> The important thing -- and the ONLY meaningful measure -- is the
> quaility of the shot.
>
>
>




 
Date: 04 Jul 2007 07:40:58
From: mocha
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
............Just to make sure of my results I had another
> friend buy a new Gaggia Espresso from another online dealer & it's brew
> pressure was set at 230 psi (11.5 bar).

The "brew pressure" of Gaggia Espresso can't be set at 11.5 bar due to
some physical restrictions (except in the case of blind P/F).
The brew valve acts as a pressure regulator. Factory settings allow 6
to 8.5 bar max in brewing depending on the manufacturing tolerances of
that spring loaded valve, not adjustable.



 
Date: 03 Jul 2007 15:19:08
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
On Jul 2, 9:31 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
>
> The brew temps were checked (190F low & 210 high). Water debits were
> checked. And we had fun developing different tests for things you wouldn't
> even think of. How about a test to see how quickly water flows through the
> filters (using a one-gallon jug, we rigged a holder for the baskets, filled
> the bucket with 1/2 gallon of water, & timed how long it took to empty the
> jug), or how about decibel tests for these home machines? We basically went
> nuts & based on what we found, there is too little attention paid to quality
> control at the Gaggia plant in Milano.
>
> One thing I found that confirms what others have noted - Gaggia doesn't test
> the brew pressure before they ship machines, or is it that they
> intentionally set the machines to run at full bore so customers won't be
> complaining that their new machine plugs up too easily? Of the six machines
> the lowest was set at 166 psi (11 bar) and the others maxed out my 200 psi
> (13.79 bar) pressure gauge.
>
> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
> shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should look
> into a class action lawsuit. Just to make sure of my results I had another
> friend buy a new Gaggia Espresso from another online dealer & it's brew
> pressure was set at 230 psi (11.5 bar).
>

With an adequate grinder to compensate for a robust pump and boiler
setup, I'd as soon have the surplus than lack pressure. Ideally one
should be able to finely dial in pressure. Unless, of course, one
makes budget espresso from a $150 machine. When I first went to
Walmart and bought a steam Mr. Coffee espresso maker for $25, yes,
then I'd have been disappointed in stepping up to bat with a Gaggia.
As it is, even without a Mazzer Mini, I can manage to slow it well
within acceptable results (just not stop it with my budget grinder).

A "rolled ground" method from an included vacuum can of espresso
Gaggia provided, shot through PF like, hm. . .well, suffice to say
within a few seconds, although D. Ross did kindly address that
deficiency through a post-processing method from a link I didn't
follow through. I'm probably a died-in-the-wool SO drinker and didn't
consume the can.



 
Date: 03 Jul 2007 19:01:02
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
A quick point: I'm not implying that Gaggia is any better or worse than any
other espresso manufacturer. I just happened to have seven new machines on
my workbench this month. If someone wanted to send a half-dozen Rancilio or
Expobar machines I'd be happy to check them out too.
--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

snipped

> One thing I found that confirms what others have noted - Gaggia doesn't
> test the brew pressure before they ship machines, or is it that they
> intentionally set the machines to run at full bore so customers won't be
> complaining that their new machine plugs up too easily?

snipped




 
Date: 03 Jul 2007 11:15:14
From:
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
On Jul 3, 8:35 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> "Danny" <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5eu6piF3b1airU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > Robert Harmon wrote:
> > -snip-
> >> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
> >> shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should
> >> look into a class action lawsuit. -snip-
>
> > That ought to guarantee that Gaggia withdraws completely from your market,
> > especially as the "fault" doesn't render the machine dangerous to use.
>
> We operate under different legal standards in this country, Danny.
>
> The improperly adjusted machines may not be dangerous, but in the US we have
> a legal concept called "implied warranty" of fitness for a particular
> purpose or merchantability. Consumer protection laws force manufacturers to
> recall products all the time. Why not in this case?
>
> Basically it's supposed that a buyer of an espresso machine has the right to
> expect the machine to meet certain industry standards, i.e., temp &
> pressure. Since these standards are clearly defined, any company not meeting
> these standards could be subjected to law suits forcing them to repair or
> replace the defective or misadjusted part.
>
> I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect a consumer product to work
> properly, right out of the box. These consumers aren't professional baristas
> after all.
>
> snipped
>
> > --
> > Regards, Danny
>
> >http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> > (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)

Seems someone at Gaggia missed the class in Marketing when they
'splained that happy customers come back and also tell their
friends. If Gaggia machines worked "out of the box", and helped
newbies make a good espresso early on in their experimenting, more of
them would stay on the counter and not get relegated to the back of
the closet while their disgruntled owners went and bought more
expensive machines that aren't ultimately any more capable. Bad
judgement at Gaggia !!!

Having never bought a new Gaggia, it never occurred to me that my
machines should work properly when I got them, which probably gave me
a different perspective on the tweaking part of the experience.
However, had I plonked down good bux for a new machine I'd be
aggravated not to have it do what it is supposed to. Unfortunately
for Gaggia, most of the people who buy their machines won't even
understand that the failure to succeed isn't their fault....they'll
just abandon them.

Susan



 
Date: 03 Jul 2007 06:57:07
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
Robert Harmon wrote:
-snip-
> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
> shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should look
> into a class action lawsuit. -snip-

That ought to guarantee that Gaggia withdraws completely from your
market, especially as the "fault" doesn't render the machine dangerous
to use.

>
> Maybe I won't be recommending Gaggia machines quite so enthusiastically in
> the future.

See above - you probably wouldn't be able to anyway.

There should be at least some excitement in espresso making :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



  
Date: 03 Jul 2007 15:35:46
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5eu6piF3b1airU1@mid.individual.net...
> Robert Harmon wrote:
> -snip-
>> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
>> shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should
>> look into a class action lawsuit. -snip-
>
> That ought to guarantee that Gaggia withdraws completely from your market,
> especially as the "fault" doesn't render the machine dangerous to use.

We operate under different legal standards in this country, Danny.

The improperly adjusted machines may not be dangerous, but in the US we have
a legal concept called "implied warranty" of fitness for a particular
purpose or merchantability. Consumer protection laws force manufacturers to
recall products all the time. Why not in this case?

Basically it's supposed that a buyer of an espresso machine has the right to
expect the machine to meet certain industry standards, i.e., temp &
pressure. Since these standards are clearly defined, any company not meeting
these standards could be subjected to law suits forcing them to repair or
replace the defective or misadjusted part.

I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect a consumer product to work
properly, right out of the box. These consumers aren't professional baristas
after all.

snipped
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




   
Date: 04 Jul 2007 09:28:00
From: EdT
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
Robert Harmon wrote:
> "Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote in message
> news:5eu6piF3b1airU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> -snip-
>>> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
>>> shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should
>>> look into a class action lawsuit. -snip-
>> That ought to guarantee that Gaggia withdraws completely from your market,
>> especially as the "fault" doesn't render the machine dangerous to use.
>
> We operate under different legal standards in this country, Danny.
>
> The improperly adjusted machines may not be dangerous, but in the US we have
> a legal concept called "implied warranty" of fitness for a particular
> purpose or merchantability. Consumer protection laws force manufacturers to
> recall products all the time. Why not in this case?
>
> Basically it's supposed that a buyer of an espresso machine has the right to
> expect the machine to meet certain industry standards, i.e., temp &
> pressure. Since these standards are clearly defined, any company not meeting
> these standards could be subjected to law suits forcing them to repair or
> replace the defective or misadjusted part.
>
> I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect a consumer product to work
> properly, right out of the box. These consumers aren't professional baristas
> after all.
>
> snipped
>> --
>> Regards, Danny
>>
>> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>>
>
>

Gaggia specs their little semi automatics to output 15 bars of pressure.
Don't believe me. Visit their web site and see for yourself. Since your
pressure gage maxed out at 13.79 bars you were not properly equipped to
determine if the machines were operating to specification.

If the OPV on the Gaggias is adjustable, and I am not sure that they
are, then it would be reasonable to expect the seller to check out the
machine and ensure it is properly calibrated prior to shipping. In many
instances a manufacturer assumes the retailer to be the final quality
control checkpoint prior to delivery of the product. This is
particularly true for items as esoteric as espresso machines. Actually
the US auto industry operated on that premise for many years, in fact it
still does. Now, if you purchase your machine from a big discounter like
Costco.com, then you aren't going to get that kind of service but you
save a hundred or so by using them.

Reading your original post it looks like you ran 1/2 gallon of water
through the machines against a stop watch. What were the results of
that test? I am sure you realize that you never want to run a vibe pump
any longer than a minute or so continuously or it will burn out. By
running 1/2 gallon of water through the pump without break could easily
destroy a Ulka pump. It sounds like you guys did that on six brand new
machines. The fact that you didn't report a single pump failure speaks
well for the quality of components that Gaggia uses on their equipment
but nevertheless the pump life has most likely been shortened by
performing such a test. What baseline specification were you testing
against here. I couldn't find anything at Gaggia's web site.

Reading over the consumer reviews at coffeegeek I note that the Classic
has been very favorably reviewed by the majority of those who have
taken the time to post their impressions of the machines.

In any event your suggestion that Gaggia is operating in a dishonest and
unprofessional manner is not supported by your testing or the
assumptions you made after collating your results. In the future your
test results would be more relevant if you tested against a published
baseline specification and if you took a more scientific approach to the
testing itself.

Ed


    
Date: 04 Jul 2007 19:16:06
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
Howdy Ed!
Either; 1) you've not read the first post on this topic, 2) you've
completely missed the points, or 3) I need to have my work proofed before
release (when I was writing for tech journals I had a habit of using a lot
of jargon & assumed that everyone who read a journal had the same background
& understood me.) Let me rephrase what I said, OK?

The only test for the pumps involved water debit, and they all were fine.
The test of the OPV or PRV showed that too much pressure was being used for
proper extraction. The OPV should be set to divert excess pressure away from
the group & not one of the machines was anywhere near properly adjusted
(8.5 - 9.5 bar dynamic pressure). Regardless of the fineness of the grind of
the coffee, the brew pressure should remain constant ~9 bar for a 25 - 30
second pull. This is not to say that choking the filter won't result in a
spike of static pressure; but then this would not be considered brew
pressure if no fluids were being passed through the filter, would it.

The admittedly unscientific flow test for the filters was done with a
stand-alone container with a filter holder rigged to the bottom. The test
was to see if the filters were all permitting the same volume to pass
through. The water was supplied by gravity feed with no pump involved.

And, I'm not sure if retailers would buy into your idea of holding them
accountable for fine-tuning the machines before they're sold to the public.
In fact that's not possible for most online dealers who have no product
inventory. The machines are drop-shipped from the wholesaler and the
retailer is a third-party processor only. And as far as consumers being
responsible for adjustments to their new machines, can openers should remove
lids & espresso machines should make proper espresso, first time & every
time as long as proper care is taken (which NEVER involves accessing the
internal workings of the machine.)

And I agree, the Gaggia machines are deservedly highly rated consumer
espresso machines. I have one & have bought many for friends & neighbors.
They're easy to use, relatively cheap, and simple to maintain & repair. But
if Gaggia invested in a quality control program these machines would be even
better. Oh, and about those reviews on Coffee Geek & other forums - how many
of those reviewers had pressure gauges available to them? Lacking a proper
way to measure brew pressure what you get are VERY subjective opinions. Or
don't you believe that the conventions of pressure & temperature are truly
relevant?
--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

"EdT" <EdT@ornwart.net > wrote in message news:468bd871@news.acsalaska.net...
> Gaggia specs their little semi automatics to output 15 bars of pressure.
> Don't believe me. Visit their web site and see for yourself. Since your
> pressure gage maxed out at 13.79 bars you were not properly equipped to
> determine if the machines were operating to specification.
>
> If the OPV on the Gaggias is adjustable, and I am not sure that they are,
> then it would be reasonable to expect the seller to check out the machine
> and ensure it is properly calibrated prior to shipping. In many instances
> a manufacturer assumes the retailer to be the final quality control
> checkpoint prior to delivery of the product. This is particularly true
> for items as esoteric as espresso machines. Actually the US auto industry
> operated on that premise for many years, in fact it still does. Now, if
> you purchase your machine from a big discounter like Costco.com, then you
> aren't going to get that kind of service but you save a hundred or so by
> using them.
>
> Reading your original post it looks like you ran 1/2 gallon of water
> through the machines against a stop watch. What were the results of that
> test? I am sure you realize that you never want to run a vibe pump any
> longer than a minute or so continuously or it will burn out. By running
> 1/2 gallon of water through the pump without break could easily destroy a
> Ulka pump. It sounds like you guys did that on six brand new machines.
> The fact that you didn't report a single pump failure speaks well for the
> quality of components that Gaggia uses on their equipment but nevertheless
> the pump life has most likely been shortened by performing such a test.
> What baseline specification were you testing against here. I couldn't
> find anything at Gaggia's web site.
>
> Reading over the consumer reviews at coffeegeek I note that the Classic
> has been very favorably reviewed by the majority of those who have taken
> the time to post their impressions of the machines.
>
> In any event your suggestion that Gaggia is operating in a dishonest and
> unprofessional manner is not supported by your testing or the assumptions
> you made after collating your results. In the future your test results
> would be more relevant if you tested against a published baseline
> specification and if you took a more scientific approach to the testing
> itself.
>
> Ed




     
Date: 04 Jul 2007 19:11:18
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:WlSii.4220$zA4.740@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Howdy Ed!
> Either; 1) you've not read the first post on this topic, 2) you've
> completely missed the points, or 3) I need to have my work proofed before
> release (when I was writing for tech journals I had a habit of using a lot
> of jargon & assumed that everyone who read a journal had the same
> background & understood me.) Let me rephrase what I said, OK?

Maybe a year away from this group wasn't enough.

C




   
Date: 04 Jul 2007 09:31:21
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
Robert Harmon wrote:

> We operate under different legal standards in this country, Danny.

Not so different that you'd notice, probably.

>
> The improperly adjusted machines may not be dangerous, but in the US we have
> a legal concept called "implied warranty" of fitness for a particular
> purpose or merchantability. Consumer protection laws force manufacturers to
> recall products all the time. Why not in this case?
>
> Basically it's supposed that a buyer of an espresso machine has the right to
> expect the machine to meet certain industry standards, i.e., temp &
> pressure. Since these standards are clearly defined, any company not meeting
> these standards could be subjected to law suits forcing them to repair or
> replace the defective or misadjusted part.
>
> I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect a consumer product to work
> properly, right out of the box. These consumers aren't professional baristas
> after all.

I don't disagree that the pressure adjustment should be in the
ballpark when machines leave the factory, and that this should be
bought to their attention, firmly if necessary. I just think that
"class action lawsuit" is a big hammer which would possibly just
result in what I said - Gaggia withdrawing from that market, or at
least dumbing down the machines further.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



   
Date: 03 Jul 2007 20:47:51
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:35:46 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote in message
>news:5eu6piF3b1airU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> -snip-
>>> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped in
>>> shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should
>>> look into a class action lawsuit. -snip-
>>
>> That ought to guarantee that Gaggia withdraws completely from your market,
>> especially as the "fault" doesn't render the machine dangerous to use.
>
>We operate under different legal standards in this country, Danny.

Not so different. The EU Consumer Guarantees Directive (1999) went a
long way toward harmonizing US and EU law. I think you would be
surprised at how much greater consumer rights can be in many European
jurisdictions than in the U.S.

Marshall


   
Date: 03 Jul 2007 18:36:28
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Brew pressure for 7 new Gaggia machines.

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:m1uii.3203$Od7.1926@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote in message
> news:5eu6piF3b1airU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> -snip-
>>> This is ridiculous, and Gaggia & Importika should be inverted & dipped
>>> in shit by furious buyers - or at least some enterprising shyster should
>>> look into a class action lawsuit. -snip-
>>
>> That ought to guarantee that Gaggia withdraws completely from your
>> market, especially as the "fault" doesn't render the machine dangerous to
>> use.
>
> We operate under different legal standards in this country, Danny.
>
> The improperly adjusted machines may not be dangerous, but in the US we
> have a legal concept called "implied warranty" of fitness for a particular
> purpose or merchantability. Consumer protection laws force manufacturers
> to recall products all the time. Why not in this case?
>
> Basically it's supposed that a buyer of an espresso machine has the right
> to expect the machine to meet certain industry standards, i.e., temp &
> pressure. Since these standards are clearly defined, any company not
> meeting these standards could be subjected to law suits forcing them to
> repair or replace the defective or misadjusted part.
>
> I don't believe it's unreasonable to expect a consumer product to work
> properly, right out of the box. These consumers aren't professional
> baristas after all.
>
> snipped
>> --
>> Regards, Danny
>>
>> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>>
I hear the consumer can expect the same safeguards and financial
reimbursement, when getting his pants cleaned !!!!..:-))

bmc