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Date: 03 Oct 2006 01:07:46
From: Richard Burton
Subject: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

sincerely,
Richard Burton




 
Date: 07 Oct 2006 05:59:41
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
rg is VERY 'troll sensitive'

On Oct 4, 11:35 am, Randy G. <f...@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
> Richard Burton <burt...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> >I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
> >have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
> >machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
> >grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
> >grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
> >fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
> >have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
> >Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> >sincerely,
> >Richard Burton



 
Date: 05 Oct 2006 09:04:11
From: feeman_4_life
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
It's an easy decicion to make. Buy your Silvia first.... play around
with pre ground coffee. If you like what you drink, no you don't need
a grinder. And if you do need one, then get one. It's that simple.
I just bought a Sbux Barista machine a month ago, and I was like "yea,
I can grind this at the coffee places that I buy my beans from"..... 2
pounds and one month later, I *had* to go get a semi decent grinder. I
got the Sbux Solis 166 one. Its not the best, but you compensate and
work with it with your tamp, since it doesn't have enough steps after
the mod to really play around with the grind. I had no money for a
Rocky or Mazzer.

Does it make a difference? I really think so. Do you see coffee shops
using preground coffee for espresso?

You might as well go the full way to make the most of your hobby.

Richard Burton wrote:
> I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
> have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
> machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
> grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
> grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
> fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
> have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> sincerely,
> Richard Burton



 
Date: 04 Oct 2006 08:35:37
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Richard Burton <burtonr@telusplanet.net > wrote:

>I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
>have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
>machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
>grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
>grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
>fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
>have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>sincerely,
>Richard Burton


Richard,

When I first read your post I passed it over- it sounded much like a
troll who drops by here asking questions just to elicit some sort of
negative response from us. I have decided to respond based on your
ability to accept the thoughts of alt.coffee members as represented by
your subsequent participation in this thread which you started.

As you are learning, a quality grinder is not only required to make
espresso, it is actually more important than the espresso machine. You
could actually spend more on a grinder than on the machine and you
would not be wasting money. As a real-life example, I bought an older
Krups espresso machine at a thrift store for about $8 and it actually
makes drinkable espresso when mated with my Rancilio Rocky grinder.

Preground coffee will never do unless you have a coffee addiction
equal to a crack addiction and just need a fix, even if it means a
mouthful of FOlger's straight from the red can into your mouth. When
it comes to espresso, fresh is critical, and once ground the coffee
should be used within minutes for best taste. The grind also needs to
be adjusted for the roast, humidity, your style of preparation, and
taste. One click can make a huge difference, and depending on the
grinder, one click is a change of a thousandth of an inch or less.

I suggest you take some time to read through my website- mainly so
that you don't make the mistakes I almost made, and certainly so that
you don't make the mistakes I did make.


Randy "Mistakes LLC" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




  
Date: 05 Oct 2006 02:58:19
From: Richard Burton
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Appreciate the post, as I mentioned, I have decided to completely
rethink my purchase and put the priority on the grinder. Having said
that, I think my question arrives from the fact that most of the reviews
I read I think focused more on the craft/art of creating the perfect cup
which seems to revolve around working around the imperfect espresso
machines (temp surfing, etc.) and the grinder though mentioned and
important just didn't get the same detail or come across with the same
emphasis. Hence my question meant in a purely "innocent" way.


Randy G. wrote:
> Richard Burton <burtonr@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
>> I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
>> have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
>> machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
>> grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
>> grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
>> fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
>> have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Richard Burton
>
>
> Richard,
>
> When I first read your post I passed it over- it sounded much like a
> troll who drops by here asking questions just to elicit some sort of
> negative response from us. I have decided to respond based on your
> ability to accept the thoughts of alt.coffee members as represented by
> your subsequent participation in this thread which you started.
>
> As you are learning, a quality grinder is not only required to make
> espresso, it is actually more important than the espresso machine. You
> could actually spend more on a grinder than on the machine and you
> would not be wasting money. As a real-life example, I bought an older
> Krups espresso machine at a thrift store for about $8 and it actually
> makes drinkable espresso when mated with my Rancilio Rocky grinder.
>
> Preground coffee will never do unless you have a coffee addiction
> equal to a crack addiction and just need a fix, even if it means a
> mouthful of FOlger's straight from the red can into your mouth. When
> it comes to espresso, fresh is critical, and once ground the coffee
> should be used within minutes for best taste. The grind also needs to
> be adjusted for the roast, humidity, your style of preparation, and
> taste. One click can make a huge difference, and depending on the
> grinder, one click is a change of a thousandth of an inch or less.
>
> I suggest you take some time to read through my website- mainly so
> that you don't make the mistakes I almost made, and certainly so that
> you don't make the mistakes I did make.
>
>
> Randy "Mistakes LLC" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>


   
Date: 05 Oct 2006 04:12:18
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Richard Burton wrote:
> Appreciate the post, as I mentioned, I have decided to completely
> rethink my purchase and put the priority on the grinder. Having said
> that, I think my question arrives from the fact that most of the reviews
> I read I think focused more on the craft/art of creating the perfect cup
> which seems to revolve around working around the imperfect espresso
> machines (temp surfing, etc.) and the grinder though mentioned and
> important just didn't get the same detail or come across with the same
> emphasis. Hence my question meant in a purely "innocent" way.

There's not much to enthuse about a grinder. Once at the right level
(anything from a Gaggia MDF upwards) they just work. Some leave more
grounds in the doser path, some could do with better (finer)
adjustment controls, but they generally just do the job, without the
tweaking required to get a single boiler espresso machine to brew and
steam at the right temperatures.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 05:34:51
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Buying a GRINDER
Q: do you need a grinder
A: Yes. -- buy the grinder FIRST

there are USED grinders to be had for $150 to 200.

Dave "121"
Saeco / Gaggia service SE



Richard Burton wrote:
> I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
> have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
> machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
> grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
> grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
> fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
> have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> sincerely,
> Richard Burton



 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 04:00:49
From: Richard Burton
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Thanks for the posts. Personally, I don't think it is as questionable a
question as some replies seem to imply. I mean a) the good local roaster
has an excellent grinder b) if you get 1/2 lb freshly ground per week,
yes it is not as fresh as "freshly", but I don't think it is that stale
either if the beans are high quality and the package is sealed properly.
Nonetheless, I do agree that getting that perfect grind vis-a-vis minute
adjustment and constant testing would not be possible or at the very
least take a long longer (week per iteration). You have answered my
question for me. Many thanks.

R.


Richard Burton wrote:
> I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
> have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
> machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
> grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
> grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
> fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
> have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> sincerely,
> Richard Burton


  
Date: 03 Oct 2006 08:02:38
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Richard Burton wrote:
> Thanks for the posts. Personally, I don't think it is as questionable a
> question as some replies seem to imply. I mean a) the good local roaster
> has an excellent grinder b) if you get 1/2 lb freshly ground per week,
> yes it is not as fresh as "freshly", but I don't think it is that stale
> either if the beans are high quality and the package is sealed properly.
> Nonetheless, I do agree that getting that perfect grind vis-a-vis minute
> adjustment and constant testing would not be possible or at the very
> least take a long longer (week per iteration). You have answered my
> question for me. Many thanks.

Richard, you absolutely do not understand the need for a good burr
grinder. You will produce a far poorer drink without one, since
espresso is all about timing, and the timing can only be influenced by
the fineness of the grind. read the FAQ on my site below, for the
details, but to summerize, a double espresso is 2fl oz of liquid
(espresso), prepared from 15 grammes of coffee *ground in such a way*
that it takes 25 seconds to pour. The numbers are ballpark and open
to interpretation, but the only way to influence the shot is to grind
for each shot and have the ability to adjust the grind to suit the
conditions - bean freshness, humidity etc. The espresso machine takes
care of the water temp, pressure etc, so we can only change the grind
etc. If the grind is out by any degree, the resultant beverage will
be undrinkable.

There is not a lot of point in buying a machine without a grinder.
Far better to buy the best grinder you can afford first (which will
then outlast many espresso machine upgrades) and use it with any
brewing method you like.

If funds permit, you could continue down your chosen path - get a good
espresso machine then realise you will need the grinder also.



--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



   
Date: 03 Oct 2006 12:32:43
From: Richard Burton
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
My post probably doesn't reflect it, but I now understand the need for
the grinder and that realization has changed the whole purchasing
equation and I may need to put off the purchase for a couple of months
so that I can afford the correct grinder. I do appreciate the comments
here; the purpose of the post was to plumb other folks experience. I
have been swayed and am rethinking everything. Thanks.

sincerely,
R.

Danny wrote:
> Richard Burton wrote:
>> Thanks for the posts. Personally, I don't think it is as questionable
>> a question as some replies seem to imply. I mean a) the good local
>> roaster has an excellent grinder b) if you get 1/2 lb freshly ground
>> per week, yes it is not as fresh as "freshly", but I don't think it is
>> that stale either if the beans are high quality and the package is
>> sealed properly. Nonetheless, I do agree that getting that perfect
>> grind vis-a-vis minute adjustment and constant testing would not be
>> possible or at the very least take a long longer (week per iteration).
>> You have answered my question for me. Many thanks.
>
> Richard, you absolutely do not understand the need for a good burr
> grinder. You will produce a far poorer drink without one, since
> espresso is all about timing, and the timing can only be influenced by
> the fineness of the grind. read the FAQ on my site below, for the
> details, but to summerize, a double espresso is 2fl oz of liquid
> (espresso), prepared from 15 grammes of coffee *ground in such a way*
> that it takes 25 seconds to pour. The numbers are ballpark and open to
> interpretation, but the only way to influence the shot is to grind for
> each shot and have the ability to adjust the grind to suit the
> conditions - bean freshness, humidity etc. The espresso machine takes
> care of the water temp, pressure etc, so we can only change the grind
> etc. If the grind is out by any degree, the resultant beverage will be
> undrinkable.
>
> There is not a lot of point in buying a machine without a grinder. Far
> better to buy the best grinder you can afford first (which will then
> outlast many espresso machine upgrades) and use it with any brewing
> method you like.
>
> If funds permit, you could continue down your chosen path - get a good
> espresso machine then realise you will need the grinder also.
>
>
>


    
Date: 04 Oct 2006 09:19:36
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Buy the grinder first...

> My post probably doesn't reflect it, but I now understand the need for the
> grinder and that realization has changed the whole purchasing equation and
> I may need to put off the purchase for a couple of months so that I can
> afford the correct grinder. I do appreciate the comments here; the purpose
> of the post was to plumb other folks experience. I have been swayed and am
> rethinking everything. Thanks.
>
> sincerely,
> R.
>
> Danny wrote:
>> Richard Burton wrote:
>>> Thanks for the posts. Personally, I don't think it is as questionable a
>>> question as some replies seem to imply. I mean a) the good local roaster
>>> has an excellent grinder b) if you get 1/2 lb freshly ground per week,
>>> yes it is not as fresh as "freshly", but I don't think it is that stale
>>> either if the beans are high quality and the package is sealed properly.
>>> Nonetheless, I do agree that getting that perfect grind vis-a-vis minute
>>> adjustment and constant testing would not be possible or at the very
>>> least take a long longer (week per iteration). You have answered my
>>> question for me. Many thanks.
>>
>> Richard, you absolutely do not understand the need for a good burr
>> grinder. You will produce a far poorer drink without one, since espresso
>> is all about timing, and the timing can only be influenced by the
>> fineness of the grind. read the FAQ on my site below, for the details,
>> but to summerize, a double espresso is 2fl oz of liquid (espresso),
>> prepared from 15 grammes of coffee *ground in such a way* that it takes
>> 25 seconds to pour. The numbers are ballpark and open to interpretation,
>> but the only way to influence the shot is to grind for each shot and have
>> the ability to adjust the grind to suit the conditions - bean freshness,
>> humidity etc. The espresso machine takes care of the water temp,
>> pressure etc, so we can only change the grind etc. If the grind is out
>> by any degree, the resultant beverage will be undrinkable.
>>
>> There is not a lot of point in buying a machine without a grinder. Far
>> better to buy the best grinder you can afford first (which will then
>> outlast many espresso machine upgrades) and use it with any brewing
>> method you like.
>>
>> If funds permit, you could continue down your chosen path - get a good
>> espresso machine then realise you will need the grinder also.
>>
>>



     
Date: 05 Oct 2006 02:29:11
From: Casey Jay Lewis
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Richard,
You seem doubtful that ground coffee will stale as quickly as
has been suggested in the replies to your post. Please consider how much
the surface area of the coffee is increased. Whilst this is a good thing
for brewing, it's horrible for freshness (oxygen and moisture act far more
effectively).

Want to try a bit of kitchen chemistry? First, think about how long a loaf
of bread will last without going stale. 3-5 days? Now take a slice of
bread and leave it on a plate. 1hr later (yah-huh, just 1 hour), come back
and feel how hard the bread has become (fluffy white bread is best to judge
the soft to hard transition).

There may be a lot of crappola that floats around this newsgroup but the
importance of a good grinder is not one of them.

Casey


"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4oftuvFdomelU1@individual.net...
> Buy the grinder first...
>
>> My post probably doesn't reflect it, but I now understand the need for
>> the grinder and that realization has changed the whole purchasing
>> equation and I may need to put off the purchase for a couple of months so
>> that I can afford the correct grinder. I do appreciate the comments here;
>> the purpose of the post was to plumb other folks experience. I have been
>> swayed and am rethinking everything. Thanks.
>>
>> sincerely,
>> R.
>>
>> Danny wrote:
>>> Richard Burton wrote:
>>>> Thanks for the posts. Personally, I don't think it is as questionable a
>>>> question as some replies seem to imply. I mean a) the good local
>>>> roaster has an excellent grinder b) if you get 1/2 lb freshly ground
>>>> per week, yes it is not as fresh as "freshly", but I don't think it is
>>>> that stale either if the beans are high quality and the package is
>>>> sealed properly. Nonetheless, I do agree that getting that perfect
>>>> grind vis-a-vis minute adjustment and constant testing would not be
>>>> possible or at the very least take a long longer (week per iteration).
>>>> You have answered my question for me. Many thanks.
>>>
>>> Richard, you absolutely do not understand the need for a good burr
>>> grinder. You will produce a far poorer drink without one, since
>>> espresso is all about timing, and the timing can only be influenced by
>>> the fineness of the grind. read the FAQ on my site below, for the
>>> details, but to summerize, a double espresso is 2fl oz of liquid
>>> (espresso), prepared from 15 grammes of coffee *ground in such a way*
>>> that it takes 25 seconds to pour. The numbers are ballpark and open to
>>> interpretation, but the only way to influence the shot is to grind for
>>> each shot and have the ability to adjust the grind to suit the
>>> conditions - bean freshness, humidity etc. The espresso machine takes
>>> care of the water temp, pressure etc, so we can only change the grind
>>> etc. If the grind is out by any degree, the resultant beverage will be
>>> undrinkable.
>>>
>>> There is not a lot of point in buying a machine without a grinder. Far
>>> better to buy the best grinder you can afford first (which will then
>>> outlast many espresso machine upgrades) and use it with any brewing
>>> method you like.
>>>
>>> If funds permit, you could continue down your chosen path - get a good
>>> espresso machine then realise you will need the grinder also.
>>>
>>>
>




      
Date: 05 Oct 2006 04:00:16
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:29:11 +0800, "Casey Jay Lewis"
<casey_jay@hotmail.com > wrote:

>Richard,
> You seem doubtful that ground coffee will stale as quickly as
>has been suggested in the replies to your post. Please consider how much
>the surface area of the coffee is increased. Whilst this is a good thing
>for brewing, it's horrible for freshness (oxygen and moisture act far more
>effectively).
>
>Want to try a bit of kitchen chemistry? First, think about how long a loaf
>of bread will last without going stale. 3-5 days? Now take a slice of
>bread and leave it on a plate. 1hr later (yah-huh, just 1 hour), come back
>and feel how hard the bread has become (fluffy white bread is best to judge
>the soft to hard transition).
>
>There may be a lot of crappola that floats around this newsgroup but the
>importance of a good grinder is not one of them.
>
>Casey

From one of my posts three years ago:

"Chuck Jones held the first of his "Coffee Workshops" for consumers
this evening in his Pasadena roastery. The subject was Coffee Brewing.
...

Then Joseph Rivera, a coffee quality chemist from SCAA, gave an
illustrated talk. One of the more interesting factoids was the
relative particle size of different coffee grinds. By the samples SCAA
uses, a "drip" grind has 0.75 mm particles (3,072/gram), "fine" grind
is 0.38 mm (24,572/g.) and "espresso" is 0.20 (491,440/g.!!!). I
thought those numbers cast some light on why very slight adjustments
of the grinder make such an enormous difference in extraction.

And to test that theory, we then sampled the same coffee at three
different grinds. The differences were evident even to the novices."

shall


      
Date: 04 Oct 2006 15:40:57
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
On 2006-10-04, Casey Jay Lewis <casey_jay@hotmail.com > wrote:

> There may be a lot of crappola that floats around this newsgroup but the
> importance of a good grinder is not one of them.

There's a huge amount of bias, though. Not one person told the OP he
could pick up a perfectly good grinder for $20-50 on ebay. Yep, I'm
talking about a Zassenhaus hand grinder. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's
not motorized. Horrors! The coffee gods forbid someone in the 21st
century should actually put out some actual physical effort. Nonsense!
It takes all of two minutes to grind out a double shot of perfect
coffee grounds from my Zazzy, and that's being slow and lazy about it.
I could easily do it in one minute. Is that too big a chunk out of
one's day? I think not.

Am I going to buy a new Mazzi or used Jolly. Maybe. Someday. Maybe
not. That's a lot of money to avoid 1 min of one-arm effort.
Besides, I need the exercise. ;)

nb


       
Date: 05 Oct 2006 04:01:26
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
notbob wrote:
> On 2006-10-04, Casey Jay Lewis <casey_jay@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>There may be a lot of crappola that floats around this newsgroup but the
>>importance of a good grinder is not one of them.
>
>
> There's a huge amount of bias, though. Not one person told the OP he
> could pick up a perfectly good grinder for $20-50 on ebay.

Blimey, we hadn't even established that a grinder was important, never
mind what grinder. I, as most people, said a "quality burr grinder"
without determining what that is.

I have no problem with a manual grinder and a cordless drill :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



       
Date: 05 Oct 2006 02:53:12
From: Richard Burton
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Hey, thanks for the suggestion - I will have a look at it.


notbob wrote:
> On 2006-10-04, Casey Jay Lewis <casey_jay@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There may be a lot of crappola that floats around this newsgroup but the
>> importance of a good grinder is not one of them.
>
> There's a huge amount of bias, though. Not one person told the OP he
> could pick up a perfectly good grinder for $20-50 on ebay. Yep, I'm
> talking about a Zassenhaus hand grinder. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's
> not motorized. Horrors! The coffee gods forbid someone in the 21st
> century should actually put out some actual physical effort. Nonsense!
> It takes all of two minutes to grind out a double shot of perfect
> coffee grounds from my Zazzy, and that's being slow and lazy about it.
> I could easily do it in one minute. Is that too big a chunk out of
> one's day? I think not.
>
> Am I going to buy a new Mazzi or used Jolly. Maybe. Someday. Maybe
> not. That's a lot of money to avoid 1 min of one-arm effort.
> Besides, I need the exercise. ;)
>
> nb


    
Date: 03 Oct 2006 10:03:29
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Richard Burton wrote:
> My post probably doesn't reflect it, but I now understand the need for
> the grinder and that realization has changed the whole purchasing
> equation and I may need to put off the purchase for a couple of months
> so that I can afford the correct grinder. I do appreciate the comments
> here; the purpose of the post was to plumb other folks experience. I
> have been swayed and am rethinking everything. Thanks.

Good for you. You are about to join the multitude who know that there
are two types of people using quality espresso machines: those who
realize that the grinder is the more important component, and those who
will.

--
St. John
Zeus gave Leda the bird.


  
Date: 03 Oct 2006 17:36:43
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question


> Thanks for the posts. Personally, I don't think it is as questionable a
> question as some replies seem to imply.

Well you did say you had researched it!

> I mean a) the good local roaster has an excellent grinder

not always, and it aint calibrated to your machine...

> b) if you get 1/2 lb freshly ground per week,

it won't be fresh by the time you get it home if it's been ground already...

> yes it is not as fresh as "freshly", but I don't think it is that stale
> either if the beans are high quality and the package is sealed properly.

packaging doesn't stop staling, and you have to open it to use it, at which
point all that technology is negated in any case...

> Nonetheless, I do agree that getting that perfect grind vis-a-vis minute
> adjustment and constant testing would not be possible or at the very least
> take a long longer (week per iteration). You have answered my question for
> me. Many thanks.
>

Phew - get a decent grinder, don't worry about the minute adjustments in the
beginning, just get yourself a bag of preground coffee at the same time to
compare if you have any doubts about the freshness...

Brent

ps of course we could all be wrong...




 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 03:05:51
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 01:07:46 GMT, Richard Burton
<burtonr@telusplanet.net > wrote:

>I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
>have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
>machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
>grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
>grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
>fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you?

In other words, people who advise on espresso machines are pretty
st, but the 1,000+ posters you've read who say you need a good
grinder were too dumb to realize they already have those things over
at coffee shops?

> Do you really
>have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Yes. Espresso pumps will push hot water through stale grounds like
they weren't there. Also they won't have much flavor left.

shall


 
Date: 02 Oct 2006 22:02:16
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
You can't very well change the grind on pre-ground coffee. But age of the
coffee and changes in the weather can require a different grind to get a
good shot. Yesterday my Silvia needed a #4 grind for a 25-second pour;
today that #4 was too fine and resulted in about half the volume in the same
time frame. How would Peet's know what grind your machine takes on any
given day? Yes, by all means, buy a GOOD grinder. I've been down the road
with a cheap grinder. You don't want to go there.

"Richard Burton" <burtonr@telusplanet.net > wrote in message
news:CJiUg.49639$E67.26220@clgrps13...
>I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and have
>been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
>machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
>grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
>grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
>fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really have
>to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine. Any
>thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> sincerely,
> Richard Burton




 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 02:14:52
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Ground coffee, whether from Peet's or Safeway, is not considered the best
way to go. Coffee gets stale days after roasting & hours (some would say
minutes) after grinding. But maybe your palate can't tell the difference.

Buy coffee from your local coffee roaster (Peets or ?) that's ground to your
specification. Draw a shot when you first get it home, then another shot 24
hrs later and another 3 days later. If you can tell the difference then you
need a quality grinder.

BTW Sir Richard, loved your translation of the Kama Sutra!
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r


"Richard Burton" <burtonr@telusplanet.net > wrote in message
news:CJiUg.49639$E67.26220@clgrps13...
>I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and have
>been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
>machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
>grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
>grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
>fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really have
>to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine. Any
>thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> sincerely,
> Richard Burton




 
Date: 02 Oct 2006 18:55:42
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question

Richard Burton wrote:
> I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
> have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
> machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
> grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
> grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
> fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
> have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Say, having invested in a quality grinder of some renown, the question
is instead posed to what end an espresso machine, lacking precise
determinates, or within leeway from coffee bean selections, will
present. Within latitude to assess what you intend to possess, in time,
grind restrictions should be apparent. Ideally, to then define them,
is to establish what lacks and is better achieved by owning a grinder
at advantage to a prepared store grind. The grind is integral to
adjusting for a consistant draw on the espresso machine, and a
restriction if not finely set to an optimal measure water pressure over
bean forms. There are several websites that illustrate setting up an
espresso machine, and how to adjust a grinder for expected results.



  
Date: 03 Oct 2006 07:54:20
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
Flasherly wrote:

> Say, having invested in a quality grinder of some renown, the question
> is instead posed to what end an espresso machine, lacking precise
> determinates, or within leeway from coffee bean selections, will
> present. Within latitude to assess what you intend to possess, in time,
> grind restrictions should be apparent. Ideally, to then define them,
> is to establish what lacks and is better achieved by owning a grinder
> at advantage to a prepared store grind. The grind is integral to
> adjusting for a consistant draw on the espresso machine, and a
> restriction if not finely set to an optimal measure water pressure over
> bean forms. There are several websites that illustrate setting up an
> espresso machine, and how to adjust a grinder for expected results.
>

I think what he means is yes, you do need a decent burr grinder.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



 
Date: 03 Oct 2006 01:40:46
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Buying a Rancilio Silvia: grinding question
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 01:07:46 GMT, Richard Burton
<burtonr@telusplanet.net > wrote:

>I am going to either buy a Rancilio Silvia or an ECM Botticelli 2 and
>have been pouring over the reviews and columns devoted to these type of
>machines. One thing isn't clear to me - do you need to own your own
>grinder. It is clear that one needs high quality coffee at the correct
>grind, but if you buy your coffee at a place like Peet's wouldn't it be
>fair to assume that they can grind the coffee for you? Do you really
>have to put $300 down on a Rancilio Rocky for these machines to shine.
>Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>sincerely,
>Richard Burton

Fresh roasted whole bean coffee stales in a week or two.

Divide that by 200 to 400 for ground coffee.

If you start with stale coffee, you don't need a grinder.