Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

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Date: 05 Feb 2007 09:49:51
From:
Subject: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Consider a mug of American coffee. It is found everywhere. It can be
made by anyone. It is cheap and refills are free. Being largely
without flavor it can be diluted to taste. What it lacks in allure it
makes up in size. It is the most democratic method ever devised for
introducing caffeine into human beings. Now take a cup of Italian
espresso. It requires expensive equipment. Price-to-volume ratio is
outrageous, suggesting indifference to the consumer and ignorance of
the ket. The aesthetic satisfaction accessory to the beverage far
outweighs its metabolic impact. It is not a drink; it is an artifact.

"This contrast can stand for the differences between America and
Europe differences nowadays asserted with increased frequency and not
a little acrimony on both sides of the Atlantic. The mutual criticisms
are familiar. To American commentators Europe is "stagnant." Its
workers, employers, and regulations lack the flexibility and
adaptability of their US counterparts. The costs of European social
welfare payments and public services are "unsustainable." Europe's
aging and "cosseted" populations are underproductive and
self-satisfied. In a globalized world, the "European social model" is
a doomed mirage. This conclusion is typically drawn even by "liberal"
American observers, who differ from conservative (and neoconservative)
critics only in deriving no pleasure from it.

"To a growing number of Europeans, however, it is America that is in
trouble and the "American way of life" that cannot be sustained. The
American pursuit of wealth, size, and abundance as material surrogates
for happiness is aesthetically unpleasing and ecologically
catastrophic. The American economy is built on sand (or, more
precisely, other people's money). For many Americans the promise of a
better future is a fading hope. Contemporary mass culture in the US is
squalid and meretricious. No wonder so many Americans turn to the
church for solace. "

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726

_______________________________________
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offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 02:46:38
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On 5 =DEubat, 20:23, jim schulman <jim_schul...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:49:51 -0800, Roque Ja wrote:
> >"Consider a mug of American coffee. ... Now take a cup of Italian
> >espresso. ...
>
> >"This contrast can stand for the differences between America and
> >Europe differences nowadays asserted with increased frequency and not
> >a little acrimony on both sides of the Atlantic.

Why don't let the anti-intellectual average schmoe slurp watered down
coffee?

David

Date: 12 Feb 2007 10:34:03
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On 5 =DEubat, 20:23, jim schulman <jim_schul...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:49:51 -0800, Roque Ja wrote:
> >"Consider a mug of American coffee. ... Now take a cup of Italian
> >espresso. ...

> Over these identical foods, I know the profoundly metaphysical
> US/Europe differences were discussed at the Beer garden; don't recall
> that from Barry's party, but I guess it's bound to happen hereabouts
> too.

Yes, it happens: mud slinging (followed by Werner von Braun firework).

David

Date: 08 Feb 2007 08:44:51
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 8, 1:31 am, "Donn Cave" <d...@drizzle.com > wrote:
> I wonder if this would be a good time to bring up gun control and abortion,
> while we're at it?
>
> I read something today, to the effect that people's appetite for cruelty
> has diminished a great deal over the centuries. Today we'd be repelled
> by things our ancestors found entertaining - civil punishments, or even
> cruelties visited on innocent parties just for the entertaining spectacle.
>
> I don't know for sure that it's true, but I do feel, I guess more as a
> matter of faith, that when it's between individuals known to each other
> as such, we're far more reliably humane than when we deal with others
> as mobs.
>
> "Mob" is not the word we normally use to describe our communities, but
> I think we can all recognize the pattern of strident rhetoric that fuels
> the regression from humane to inhumane, and we can all see it at work
> in the world, and we can see that there are always people who benefit
> from perpetually unresolved conflicts. We become their tools, when we
> get caught up in it. I can't tell you to drop your rhetorical weapons
> and let the other side win (as if winning were really the point of the
> people in the driver's seat), but I propose that if there is a place
> for it, it ain't alt.coffee.
>
> Donn

Very well put, Donn!

thank you.

DAve

Date: 08 Feb 2007 08:20:19
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 7, 8:57 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> I consider selective "noticing"
> to be a form of anti - Semitism as I have already stated.

Happily, Jack, what you consider it to be and what it is are two
different things.

You may, of course, consider it to be anything you wish. You may also
consider that Noah carried dinosaurs on the ark. You may consider
that manned moon landings were a fraud. You may consider that the
USAF is flying captured alien spaceships around Roswell, New Mexico.
You may consider that flouride in drinking water is a communist plot.
You may consider that the earth is flat.

Just don't expect to be taken seriously.

Date: 08 Feb 2007 12:31:26
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Don't attribute opinions to me that I don't have - that's intellectually
dishonest of you but I guess I really didn't expect better. One of the
biggest mistakes of the left (one that has cost them the White House two
times in a row) is to assume that their opponents are knuckle dragging,
bible thumping creationist crackpots while they themselves are brilliant
rationalist intellectuals and policy wonks. It's fun to condescend in that
way (I enjoy imagining you as a smelly drug smoking sandal wearing hippie) ,
but don't be surprised if you get outmaneuvered when you "misunderestimate"
your opposition. We live in a democracy and a large percentage of the
American population believes in "flat earth" type ideas like the idea that
some guy was dead for 3 days 2000 years ago and then woke up again and
ascended to heaven. Feel free to demean such "unserious" ideas but don't
expect to get a lot of votes that way.

The idea that the disproportionate attention paid to "Zionist atrocities" is
a disguised form of anti-Semitism is an entirely mainstream and respectable
opinion for anyone who does not hang out in Chomskyite or other loony left
circles. For example, 14 members of the advisory board of the Carter Center
resigned as a result of Carter's anti-Israel book.

PS Noah did carry dinosaurs on the ark. He probably brought baby dinosaurs
so he would have room. http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dino_ark.html

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1170951619.149257.314540@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 8:57 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> I consider selective "noticing"
>> to be a form of anti - Semitism as I have already stated.
>
> Happily, Jack, what you consider it to be and what it is are two
> different things.
>
> You may, of course, consider it to be anything you wish. You may also
> consider that Noah carried dinosaurs on the ark. You may consider
> that manned moon landings were a fraud. You may consider that the
> USAF is flying captured alien spaceships around Roswell, New Mexico.
> You may consider that flouride in drinking water is a communist plot.
> You may consider that the earth is flat.
>
> Just don't expect to be taken seriously.
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 06:51:09
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 11, 8:36 am, "Omni...@gmail.com" <Omni...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 11, 1:44 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> > I was really referring more to Judt than anyone here - he's enough of a
> > public figure to have the potential of his lamebrained ideas being taken
> > seriously by some and leading to real damage, but if what you saw from
> > some of the others is your idea of cogent and reasonable, then it's very
> > different than mine. Andy used the word condescending and that sums it up
> > pretty well. But I think it's time to let this rest and get back to coffee.
>
> I'm sorry, Jack, that your family was victimized and, while I cannot
> for a moment countenance your positions on the various topics that
> have been mentioned, I can understand how your family's history could
> shape your thinking. You are, apparently, an ultra right winger and I
> am equally far to the left. Your views seem just as illogical,
> indefensible, and out of touch to me as do mine to you. Perhaps there
> is a great gulf fixed between us across which we will never
> communicate fluently. However, that does not mean that we cannot
> treat each other with respect and I am willing to do that if you are.
> It is true that my posts were condescending and patronizing. That was
> not a response to your views about the Israelis and the Palestinians
> nearly so much as about all the other stuff you pulled in there about
> Al Gore and global warming and so on. Perhaps, to you, those are all
> of a piece but to me that sounded a great deal like gratuitous mud-
> slinging.
>
> The bottom line for me is that I grieve for the atrocities perpetrated
> on the Jews in the Shoah and for many centuries before that. Had you
> any awareness of my writings, my teaching, my circle of friends, and
> my political activism over the past few decades, you would know that
> to suggest that I am anti-Semitic is folly. What I am, Jack, is
> profoundly upset by some of the actions of the state of Israel. The
> world has made it clear that the Palestinians must make room for a
> Jewish state. What the state of Israel must understand is that there
> must also be room for a Palestinian state. And that state must be as
> free as Israel rightly demands to be. Nothing else will work.
> Nothing else will end the violence. I do not for one second, condone
> or justify acts of violence on the part of Palestinians or their Arab
> neighbors against the state of Israel. But so long as Israel behaves
> equally violently toward the Palestinians, the shellings, bombings,
> tank attacks and so on by both parties will continue. The radicals of
> Hamas and others of their ilk do nothing but cause pain and anguish
> for all when they deny the right of Israel to exist. That is absolute
> nonsense that leads to bloodshed. And when Zionists take the
> contralateral position, they perpetrate equal nonsense that equally
> leads to bloodshed.
>
> I pray that you and others of your mindset and Palestinians and others
> of their mindset, will realize that political and/or religious
> ideology will not carry the day, however heartfelt it may be on either
> side of the border.
>
> Shalom and Sala'am, They mean exactly the same thing.
>
> Will

"Will" this be the last word?

Date: 11 Feb 2007 05:36:22
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 11, 1:44 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> I was really referring more to Judt than anyone here - he's enough of a
> public figure to have the potential of his lamebrained ideas being taken
> seriously by some and leading to real damage, but if what you saw from
> some of the others is your idea of cogent and reasonable, then it's very
> different than mine. Andy used the word condescending and that sums it up
> pretty well. But I think it's time to let this rest and get back to coffee.

I'm sorry, Jack, that your family was victimized and, while I cannot
for a moment countenance your positions on the various topics that
have been mentioned, I can understand how your family's history could
shape your thinking. You are, apparently, an ultra right winger and I
am equally far to the left. Your views seem just as illogical,
indefensible, and out of touch to me as do mine to you. Perhaps there
is a great gulf fixed between us across which we will never
communicate fluently. However, that does not mean that we cannot
treat each other with respect and I am willing to do that if you are.
It is true that my posts were condescending and patronizing. That was
not a response to your views about the Israelis and the Palestinians
nearly so much as about all the other stuff you pulled in there about
Al Gore and global warming and so on. Perhaps, to you, those are all
of a piece but to me that sounded a great deal like gratuitous mud-
slinging.

The bottom line for me is that I grieve for the atrocities perpetrated
on the Jews in the Shoah and for many centuries before that. Had you
any awareness of my writings, my teaching, my circle of friends, and
my political activism over the past few decades, you would know that
to suggest that I am anti-Semitic is folly. What I am, Jack, is
profoundly upset by some of the actions of the state of Israel. The
world has made it clear that the Palestinians must make room for a
Jewish state. What the state of Israel must understand is that there
must also be room for a Palestinian state. And that state must be as
free as Israel rightly demands to be. Nothing else will work.
Nothing else will end the violence. I do not for one second, condone
or justify acts of violence on the part of Palestinians or their Arab
neighbors against the state of Israel. But so long as Israel behaves
equally violently toward the Palestinians, the shellings, bombings,
tank attacks and so on by both parties will continue. The radicals of
Hamas and others of their ilk do nothing but cause pain and anguish
for all when they deny the right of Israel to exist. That is absolute
nonsense that leads to bloodshed. And when Zionists take the
contralateral position, they perpetrate equal nonsense that equally
leads to bloodshed.

I pray that you and others of your mindset and Palestinians and others
of their mindset, will realize that political and/or religious
ideology will not carry the day, however heartfelt it may be on either
side of the border.

Shalom and Sala'am, They mean exactly the same thing.

Will

Date: 11 Feb 2007 10:58:44
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

BTW, Judt is way past you. He does not want a Palestian state along side
Israel He recognizes (properly) I think, that such a state would be a
failed state that does not have the elements needed to thrive. Instead he
advocates a single "binational state" encompassing all of Israel and the
occupied territories. If his plan is implemented, Judt will get too keep
his keep his comfortable academic job and his apartment in NY no matter how
many how many die when his retarded idea turns to the inevitable genocide -
this kind of armchair theorizing with no responsibility for results is what
maddens me the most.

I think you're completely wrong as well - nothing short of the complete
desctruction of Israel will satisfy the fanatics, who would first eliminate
all internal opposition in an independent Palestine thru civil war and then
go on to use it as base to continue their jihad. Their fellow travelers, the
global terrorists in the Islamist movement, would find a welcome home there
as well. We can glimpse the future of what such a failed state would look
like in Gaza today. Most Israelis would love to have peace but its
impossible to make peace with a people who are dedicated to your
destruction. If the violent fanatics had been willing to lay down their
arms they could have had a Palestinian state already, albeit not one that
includes Tel Aviv and Haifa. Those who think that if the big bad Jooos would
just stop oppressing them, the Palestinians would peacefully tend their
goats and olive trees are living in a fantasy. But this is not the
place to have that discussion.

To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you can
tell the difference the next time.

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171200982.007152.227780@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 11, 1:44 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> I was really referring more to Judt than anyone here - he's enough of a
>> public figure to have the potential of his lamebrained ideas being taken
>> seriously by some and leading to real damage, but if what you saw from
>> some of the others is your idea of cogent and reasonable, then it's very
>> different than mine. Andy used the word condescending and that sums it
>> up
>> pretty well. But I think it's time to let this rest and get back to
>> coffee.
>
>
> I'm sorry, Jack, that your family was victimized and, while I cannot
> for a moment countenance your positions on the various topics that
> have been mentioned, I can understand how your family's history could
> shape your thinking. You are, apparently, an ultra right winger and I
> am equally far to the left. Your views seem just as illogical,
> indefensible, and out of touch to me as do mine to you. Perhaps there
> is a great gulf fixed between us across which we will never
> communicate fluently. However, that does not mean that we cannot
> treat each other with respect and I am willing to do that if you are.
> It is true that my posts were condescending and patronizing. That was
> not a response to your views about the Israelis and the Palestinians
> nearly so much as about all the other stuff you pulled in there about
> Al Gore and global warming and so on. Perhaps, to you, those are all
> of a piece but to me that sounded a great deal like gratuitous mud-
> slinging.
>
> The bottom line for me is that I grieve for the atrocities perpetrated
> on the Jews in the Shoah and for many centuries before that. Had you
> any awareness of my writings, my teaching, my circle of friends, and
> my political activism over the past few decades, you would know that
> to suggest that I am anti-Semitic is folly. What I am, Jack, is
> profoundly upset by some of the actions of the state of Israel. The
> world has made it clear that the Palestinians must make room for a
> Jewish state. What the state of Israel must understand is that there
> must also be room for a Palestinian state. And that state must be as
> free as Israel rightly demands to be. Nothing else will work.
> Nothing else will end the violence. I do not for one second, condone
> or justify acts of violence on the part of Palestinians or their Arab
> neighbors against the state of Israel. But so long as Israel behaves
> equally violently toward the Palestinians, the shellings, bombings,
> tank attacks and so on by both parties will continue. The radicals of
> Hamas and others of their ilk do nothing but cause pain and anguish
> for all when they deny the right of Israel to exist. That is absolute
> nonsense that leads to bloodshed. And when Zionists take the
> contralateral position, they perpetrate equal nonsense that equally
> leads to bloodshed.
>
> I pray that you and others of your mindset and Palestinians and others
> of their mindset, will realize that political and/or religious
> ideology will not carry the day, however heartfelt it may be on either
> side of the border.
>
> Shalom and Sala'am, They mean exactly the same thing.
>
> Will
>

Date: 12 Feb 2007 00:39:52
From: Moose
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>BTW, Judt is way past you. He does not want a Palestian state along side
>Israel He recognizes (properly) I think, that such a state would be a
>failed state that does not have the elements needed to thrive. Instead he
>advocates a single "binational state" encompassing all of Israel and the
>occupied territories. If his plan is implemented, Judt will get too keep
>his keep his comfortable academic job and his apartment in NY no matter how
>many how many die when his retarded idea turns to the inevitable genocide -
>this kind of armchair theorizing with no responsibility for results is what
>maddens me the most.
>
>
>I think you're completely wrong as well - nothing short of the complete
>desctruction of Israel will satisfy the fanatics, who would first eliminate
>all internal opposition in an independent Palestine thru civil war and then
>go on to use it as base to continue their jihad. Their fellow travelers, the
>global terrorists in the Islamist movement, would find a welcome home there
>as well. We can glimpse the future of what such a failed state would look
>like in Gaza today. Most Israelis would love to have peace but its
>impossible to make peace with a people who are dedicated to your
>destruction. If the violent fanatics had been willing to lay down their
>arms they could have had a Palestinian state already, albeit not one that
>includes Tel Aviv and Haifa. Those who think that if the big bad Jooos would
>just stop oppressing them, the Palestinians would peacefully tend their
>goats and olive trees are living in a fantasy. But this is not the
>place to have that discussion.
>
>To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you can
>tell the difference the next time.

Hey Jack -

Ten short hours ago you wrote, "But I think it's time to let this rest
and get back to coffee."

You were right. It's PAST time to let this rest and get back to coffee.

But no. You couldn't stop. You just had to have the last word. So
we're the lucky recipients of yet another harangue.

Why in God's name couldn't you have sent this off-topic screed to Will
via e-mail? Will's e-mail address is <Omniryx@gmail.com >. It's
plastered all over every one of his posts.

We all know you are a learned man. You don't need to feel obligated
to prove it over and over.

> But this is not the place to have that discussion.

AMEN!

Date: 12 Feb 2007 15:05:15
From: Otto Bahn
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Moose" <moose@no_spam.org > wrote in message news:5obvs29j7v21s8fvu32kr65v12bsv35vrv@4ax.com...

> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
> >BTW, Judt is way past you. He does not want a Palestian state along side
> >Israel He recognizes (properly) I think, that such a state would be a
> >failed state that does not have the elements needed to thrive. Instead he
> >advocates a single "binational state" encompassing all of Israel and the
> >occupied territories. If his plan is implemented, Judt will get too keep
> >his keep his comfortable academic job and his apartment in NY no matter how
> >many how many die when his retarded idea turns to the inevitable genocide -
> >this kind of armchair theorizing with no responsibility for results is what
> >maddens me the most.
> >
> >
> >I think you're completely wrong as well - nothing short of the complete
> >desctruction of Israel will satisfy the fanatics, who would first eliminate
> >all internal opposition in an independent Palestine thru civil war and then
> >go on to use it as base to continue their jihad. Their fellow travelers, the
> >global terrorists in the Islamist movement, would find a welcome home there
> >as well. We can glimpse the future of what such a failed state would look
> >like in Gaza today. Most Israelis would love to have peace but its
> >impossible to make peace with a people who are dedicated to your
> >destruction. If the violent fanatics had been willing to lay down their
> >arms they could have had a Palestinian state already, albeit not one that
> >includes Tel Aviv and Haifa. Those who think that if the big bad Jooos would
> >just stop oppressing them, the Palestinians would peacefully tend their
> >goats and olive trees are living in a fantasy. But this is not the
> >place to have that discussion.
> >
> >To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you can
> >tell the difference the next time.
>
> Hey Jack -
>
> Ten short hours ago you wrote, "But I think it's time to let this rest
> and get back to coffee."
>
> You were right. It's PAST time to let this rest and get back to coffee.
>
> But no. You couldn't stop. You just had to have the last word. So
> we're the lucky recipients of yet another harangue.
>
> Why in God's name couldn't you have sent this off-topic screed to Will
> via e-mail? Will's e-mail address is <Omniryx@gmail.com>. It's
> plastered all over every one of his posts.
>
> We all know you are a learned man. You don't need to feel obligated
> to prove it over and over.
>
> > But this is not the place to have that discussion.
>
> AMEN!

Me too!

--oTTo--

Date: 11 Feb 2007 17:20:00
From: Alan
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Jack Denver" wrote
[ ... ]

> To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you
> can tell the difference the next time.

[ ... ]

Thanks so much for the illustration, Jack.
Speaking of "cogent responses", just how "cogent" was your response to
Judt's article?
Insofar as Judt's article had absolutely NOTHING to do with Jews or Arabs,
and absolutely NOTHING to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict, I though
that your response (a bitter, mudslinging rant about your perception of Judt
as an anti-Semite) could be seen as somewhat less than cogent.
And before you read into MY words what is not there, I wish to make it clear
that I am a left-leaning Jew of Middle Eastern descent, I live in the US
(and do not hate either the US or Israel, although I take strong exception
to the policies and actions of their respective governments), and I am not
an anti-Semite, nor am I self-hating.

So, tell me ---- where do you stand on the tamping issue? No tamp? A light
tamp? Do you place your tamper on top of coffee grounds (which have been
carefully tap-settled and evenly distributed) and hit it with a sledge
hammer?
And while we're at it --- do you back-flush? And, if not, why? :-)

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 08 Feb 2007 12:05:27
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:31:26 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>
>PS Noah did carry dinosaurs on the ark. He probably brought baby dinosaurs
>so he would have room.

Which accounts for the extinctions. Those baby dinosaurs are so hard
to sex, Noah ended up without mated pairs.

More to the point: I think your eloquent desciption of how the
brain-dead flat-earthers are the natural constiutents of the racist
right is spot on. The truly frightening thing is that you're actually
proud of it.

Somehow I don't think I would feel so upbeat about having my political
survival dependent on pandering to ginal morons. But, I guess when
you're intellectually bankrupt you take whatever small change you can
scrounge up.

_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:50:17
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

OTOH, I'm not so sure that it's wise in the long run to base your political
survival on constituencies such as gays, people who favor abortion and other
"non-breeders". Seems to me the Shakers tried a similar strategy and they
put themselves out of business. Google "Roe Effect".

If you think that people who are religious believers are "small change" in
American politics then you really need to get out more. As long as the left
continues to consider the majority of Americans to be morons, we don't have
to worry about leftists winning many elections west of Zabars and east of
Chez Panisse.

<Roque Ja > wrote in message
news:150ns2l74fl448cr3jflqhj39u3l99s6n5@4ax.com...
>>
>
> Somehow I don't think I would feel so upbeat about having my political
> survival dependent on pandering to ginal morons. But, I guess when
> you're intellectually bankrupt you take whatever small change you can
> scrounge up.
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 08:40:04
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 11, 10:58 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> BTW, Judt is way past you. He does not want a Palestian state along side
> Israel He recognizes (properly) I think, that such a state would be a
> failed state that does not have the elements needed to thrive. Instead he
> advocates a single "binational state" encompassing all of Israel and the
> occupied territories. If his plan is implemented, Judt will get too keep
> his keep his comfortable academic job and his apartment in NY no matter how
> many how many die when his retarded idea turns to the inevitable genocide -
> this kind of armchair theorizing with no responsibility for results is what
> maddens me the most.
>
> I think you're completely wrong as well - nothing short of the complete
> desctruction of Israel will satisfy the fanatics, who would first eliminate
> all internal opposition in an independent Palestine thru civil war and then
> go on to use it as base to continue their jihad. Their fellow travelers, the
> global terrorists in the Islamist movement, would find a welcome home there
> as well. We can glimpse the future of what such a failed state would look
> like in Gaza today. Most Israelis would love to have peace but its
> impossible to make peace with a people who are dedicated to your
> destruction. If the violent fanatics had been willing to lay down their
> arms they could have had a Palestinian state already, albeit not one that
> includes Tel Aviv and Haifa. Those who think that if the big bad Jooos would
> just stop oppressing them, the Palestinians would peacefully tend their
> goats and olive trees are living in a fantasy. But this is not the
> place to have that discussion.
>
> To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you can
> tell the difference the next time.
>

IZZY! GET A GRIP

Date: 08 Feb 2007 16:25:28
From: Bill Barner
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:g7ednTcjgMiVEFbYnZ2dnUVZ_smonZ2d@comcast.com...
> OTOH, I'm not so sure that it's wise in the long run to base your
political
> survival on constituencies such as gays, people who favor abortion and
other
> "non-breeders". Seems to me the Shakers tried a similar strategy and
they
> put themselves out of business.
[...]

There are four Shakers left, according to the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2006/07/23/the_last_ones_standing/?page=full

They don't have sex but they do drink alcohol. So, I'll bet they are
allowed coffee, too.

Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:19:11
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

In article <g7ednTcjgMiVEFbYnZ2dnUVZ_smonZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

> OTOH, I'm not so sure that it's wise in the long run to base your political
> survival on constituencies such as gays, people who favor abortion and other
> "non-breeders". Seems to me the Shakers tried a similar strategy and they
> put themselves out of business. Google "Roe Effect".
>
> If you think that people who are religious believers are "small change" in
> American politics then you really need to get out more. As long as the left
> continues to consider the majority of Americans to be morons, we don't have
> to worry about leftists winning many elections west of Zabars and east of
> Chez Panisse.
>
>
> <Roque Ja> wrote in message
> news:150ns2l74fl448cr3jflqhj39u3l99s6n5@4ax.com...
> >>
> >
> > Somehow I don't think I would feel so upbeat about having my political
> > survival dependent on pandering to ginal morons. But, I guess when
> > you're intellectually bankrupt you take whatever small change you can
> > scrounge up.
> >
Religious believers have always been a part of the electorate. But, the
far Christian right is relatively new. Sure, they've been there all
along, they just didn't vote much in the past. And for the most part,
they've been single-issue voters - abortion. And since neither party
has done more than talk about it, they may just go back to not voting
again.

Date: 08 Feb 2007 16:37:23
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Are you sure this is not just wishful thinking on your part? It seems to
me that once a group has become politically engaged it does not just quitely
retreat back into its hole afterward. For one thing, a whole little industry
springs up around any pressure group of "professional activists" , fund
raisers and the like and these people don't want to lose their jobs. After
the passage of the civil rights reforms of the 60s, the civil rights
activists could theoretically have declared victory and gone home but of
course they didn't. In the case of those who are anti-abortion, it seems
like the fact that their goal is not yet achieved would only cause them to
redouble their efforts, not go home.

"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-D90277.15191108022007@individual.net...
> And since neither party
> has done more than talk about it, they may just go back to not voting
> again.
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:02:35
From: Max
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Are you sure this is not just wishful thinking on your part? It seems to
>me that once a group has become politically engaged it does not just quitely
>retreat back into its hole afterward. For one thing, a whole little industry
>springs up around any pressure group of "professional activists" , fund
>raisers and the like and these people don't want to lose their jobs. After
>the passage of the civil rights reforms of the 60s, the civil rights
>activists could theoretically have declared victory and gone home but of
>course they didn't. In the case of those who are anti-abortion, it seems
>like the fact that their goal is not yet achieved would only cause them to
>redouble their efforts, not go home.

For Christ's sake, take this rant to e-mail Jack!

Date: 08 Feb 2007 20:31:20
From: AZ Nomad
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:05:27 -0800, Roque Ja <Roque > wrote:

>On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:31:26 -0500, "Jack Denver"
><nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:

>>
>>PS Noah did carry dinosaurs on the ark. He probably brought baby dinosaurs
>>so he would have room.

>Which accounts for the extinctions. Those baby dinosaurs are so hard
>to sex, Noah ended up without mated pairs.

I am still amazed that there is a single person over the age of ten who takes
any part of that story seriously. Every specie aboard the ship including
humans would have died out in a few generations due to lack of genetic
diversity. Can you say inbreeding?

Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:56:51
From: hfw
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

I take the story seriously. Which is not the same as taking the story
literally.

--Heidi

AZ Nomad wrote:
> I am still amazed that there is a single person over the age of ten who takes
> any part of that story seriously. Every specie aboard the ship including
> humans would have died out in a few generations due to lack of genetic
> diversity. Can you say inbreeding?
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:35:29
From: AZ Nomad
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:56:51 -0500, hfw <nospam@nospam.com > wrote:

>AZ Nomad wrote:
>> I am still amazed that there is a single person over the age of ten who takes
>> any part of that story seriously. Every specie aboard the ship including
>> humans would have died out in a few generations due to lack of genetic
>> diversity. Can you say inbreeding?
>>

>I take the story seriously. Which is not the same as taking the story
>literally.
>
>--Heidi

Its nasty, savage, and immoral either way.

Date: 07 Feb 2007 13:43:35
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 7, 3:24 pm, "Omni...@gmail.com" <Omni...@gmail.com > wrote:
> daveb said...
>
> > WHEW! get a grip, "Jack"
>
> Good advice, Dave. He won't, but its good advice just the same.
>
> I had lunch today with a couple of physician friends named Schilowitz
> and Adler, one orthodox, the other conservative, both observant, both
> supporters of the state of Israel. Hardly self-loathing types.
>
> Their observation: "If you are looking for racists, Zionism is as
> good a source as any."
>
> I'd submit that Jack's rants pretty well support that statement.
>
> Maybe it is time to get back to kawfee.

agreed.
I thought the fact that we actually met in person in Philly would
help,
but . . . . .

Date: 07 Feb 2007 13:24:25
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 5, 12:49 pm, Roque Ja wrote:
>
> "Consider a mug of American coffee. It is found everywhere. It can be
> made by anyone. It is cheap and refills are free. Being largely
> without flavor it can be diluted to taste. What it lacks in allure it
> makes up in size. It is the most democratic method ever devised for
> introducing caffeine into human beings. Now take a cup of Italian
> espresso. It requires expensive equipment. Price-to-volume ratio is
> outrageous, suggesting indifference to the consumer and ignorance of
> the ket. The aesthetic satisfaction accessory to the beverage far
> outweighs its metabolic impact. It is not a drink; it is an artifact."

First off, I'd wonder about the author's presumptions before readily
drawing cultural analogies affecting a widespread bipolar global
disarray across schisms of work and productivity. Another presumption
might be one modeled as asymmetric keting. Coffee as an American
beverage possesses different qualities from its Italian, or European,
counterpart. Disparity and inequality are present for value to be
ascribed by volume, and taste relegated apart from any ancillary
aethetics, if coffee altogether serves for a social drug. Notice the
equation. Poor quality drugs equates to an American assumption
Italian coffee is at an inferior artifical valuation. The nature of
asymmetric information present exists at imbalance: Truth being, as
that which is known within optimal agreement, Italians do not perceive
coffee at an inferior valuation. Nor do Eurpeans, or all their
grandchildren, as American representatives of Western civilization.
Looking at this nobel winner and later comments on a paper he's
written, the supportive gist is that informational advantage exists,
ipso facto, in observable, experienced, qualified truth. . . that such
as coffee is a Starbucks phenomena, and a consequent exacerbation of
business-cycle fluctuations (1), it is, then, no more than a natural
trade response to viable information. There's little more ado with
perceived living or business standards, coffee wise, apart from a
balance cultures draw by comparative analysis in accounting taste.

Guy's obviously a muckraker. Good, Rogue. Got any more like that?

1 http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/articles/akerlof/index.html

Date: 07 Feb 2007 12:24:03
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

daveb said...

> WHEW! get a grip, "Jack"

Good advice, Dave. He won't, but its good advice just the same.

I had lunch today with a couple of physician friends named Schilowitz
and Adler, one orthodox, the other conservative, both observant, both
supporters of the state of Israel. Hardly self-loathing types.

Their observation: "If you are looking for racists, Zionism is as
good a source as any."

I'd submit that Jack's rants pretty well support that statement.

Maybe it is time to get back to kawfee.

Date: 07 Feb 2007 15:59:25
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1170879843.493336.47880@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Their observation: "If you are looking for racists, Zionism is as
> good a source as any."

That's the problem - the world is filled with "racists" but for some reason
the Jews get held up to a higher standard and singled out for scrutiny. For
example, the UN General Assembly has spent an inordinate amount of its time
since 1948 passing resolutions condemning Israel while millions have been
murdered by other governments all around the globe with nary a resolution
passed. It's OK when people set higher standards for their own conduct than
they expect from others . This is within the Jewish religious and moral
tradition (so you could argue that self-criticism by Jews is not always the
same as self- hatred, although it can cross the line as Judt does). But when
others focus inordinately on the faults of the "Zionists" it's a "double
standard" which is a form of anti-Semitism .

Date: 07 Feb 2007 09:55:38
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 6, 5:57 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> <Omni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1170793700.475053.31730@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Oh, Jack, Jack, Jack. Can you not discern a difference between being
> > opposed to the actions of the state of Israel and being antisemitic?
>
> Judt goes well beyond being opposed to the actions of the State of Israel -
> he calls for the dissolution of the state itself. If he is not an
> anti-Semite himself, this point of view certainly puts him in the company of
> those who are. Israel is now so wrapped up with the identity of the Jewish
> people that I don't know whether Judaism could withstand another catastrophe
> after all that has happened in the last century, so as a practical matter I
> don't believe that there is really any meaningful difference any more
> between an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite.
>
> But brilliant intellectuals such as yourself can make such fine
> distinctions. In Germany there used to be brilliant intellectuals such as
> Judt. The SS gassed them the same as all the other Jews. In Russia,
> intellectuals such as yourself, so much wiser and more educated than their
> leadiers, used to debate the fine distinctions between permanent revolution
> and revolution in one country. Stalin packed them all off to the Gulag. Too
> bad that Iranian missiles won't distinguish between Zionists and progressive
> believers in the binational state either.

WHEW! get a grip, "Jack"

dave

Date: 07 Feb 2007 09:15:57
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 5, 11:01 pm, "Alan" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> To say that "our economy grows further" is meaningless (as well as lacking
> grammatical sense ---- since when is economic growth referred to in terms of
> distance?).

As an adjective to a degree, in addition, by extent, further[more]; if
only to help, furthermore, the common cause, should their furtherance
be principled upon said goodly enumerates, namely applicable, et al.
Farthest strewn, in distant glints presage to point the way;-- so
furthest a center yet remains, so fair a hint while do butterfly wings
yet effect to grace my face. 'And every year our economy grows
further';-- as an adverb still [grows], also [grows], besides
[grows]. In so many comparative superlatives in literal conjunction,
as either exists farther from further distance, futhermore from
reduction and a sense tradition lacks presently to impose
distinction;-- neither without due consideration, for conjecture to
espouse usage in all ways further ought connote*, to any subsequently
extant farther, in essense, denotes as a linear measure of distance.

* http://www.bartleby.com/68/49/2449.html

Date: 07 Feb 2007 07:25:19
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 6, 5:57 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:

> I don't believe that there is really any meaningful difference any more
> between an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite.

Happily for the world, Jack, there are several millions of other
people--including many Jews (something that really must boggle your
mind) who DO believe that there is a meaningful difference.

Date: 07 Feb 2007 12:44:53
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

It doesn't make any difference what those fools believe - the head choppers
don't distinguish at all between Zionists and Jews. Ask Daniel Pearl if he
is anti-Zionist Jew. Or ask Leon Klinghoffer. Oh wait, you can't - they're
dead.

It doesn't boggle my mind at all - humans are capable of all sorts of
rationalization and self-hatred is a disease that afflicts most minorities -
these are all psychological defenses that keep you from going nuts when you
realize that the world hates you for something that you were born with and
have no ability to change.

Judt also has the peculiar disease of the left - real life is never as good
as the ideal, so you become disillusioned and condemn the whole enterprise
as corrupt. You see this in American leftists who hate America because the
high minded words of the Declaration ("all men are created equal") are not
implemented 100% in reality, therefore America is nothing but a hypocritical
monster. They don't accept Churchill's idea that democracy is the worst
possible system of government (except for all the others that have been
tried). As a young man Judt was an ardent Zionist and moved to Israel for a
time. "I went with this idealistic fantasy of creating a socialist,
communitarian country through work", Judt is quoted as saying. Of course,
the fantasy did not end up matching the reality and so the whole country
must go.
http://www.forward.com/articles/embattled-academic-tony-judt-defends-call-for-bina/

By the way, I get accused of calling people "communists" but Judt
self-identifies as such and makes no attempt to hide or deny this.

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1170861919.458129.134400@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 6, 5:57 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't believe that there is really any meaningful difference any more
>> between an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite.
>
> Happily for the world, Jack, there are several millions of other
> people--including many Jews (something that really must boggle your
> mind) who DO believe that there is a meaningful difference.
>

Date: 10 Feb 2007 14:29:59
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 10, 2:50 pm, Andy Schecter
<schec...@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote:
> From what I've seen so far, you, sir, will be posting here for many decades
> before the value of your contribution approaches the value of his.

Andy, I respect your knowledge enormously but, happily, my ego
strength does not depend on your affirmation. Further, I do not
suffer fools gladly. Jack may be profoundly knowledgeable about
coffee but his vitriolic, dismissive, ideological Ultra-Zionist
rhetoric does not earn him my respect and it should not earn him
yours, either.

His posts have been far uglier than all the folks who have opposed
him. So chide him, sir, and then chide the rest of us. Then perhaps
we can take YOUR opinion seriously.

Date: 10 Feb 2007 12:17:15
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On 10 =DEubat, 21:50, Andy Schecter
<schec...@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote:
> Omni...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 4:20 pm, "JackDenver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >> Yes, it's true, I am but a plaything in the hands of your superior
> >> intellect.
>
> > It is good that you know your place in the divine economy,Jack.
>
> What your condescending judgment ignores isJack'slong, distinguished hist=
ory
> on alt.coffee.
>
> Some of his posts in this thread have (perhaps) been over the top. But th=
ey
> don't even begin to offset the years of original, cogent, and insightful =
posts
> thatJackhas offered us.
>
> From what I've seen so far, you, sir, will be posting here for many deca=
des
> before the value of your contribution approaches the value of his.
>
> IMHO.
>
> So please, let's abandon this unpleasant detour and get back to posting a=
bout
> coffee....
>
> --
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Solidarity of ignorance.

David

Date: 10 Feb 2007 09:48:40
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 10, 12:11 pm, "Omni...@gmail.com" <Omni...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 9, 4:20 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, it's true, I am but a plaything in the hands of your superior
> > intellect.
>
> It is good that you know your place in the divine economy, Jack.

you are revealing YOUR true colors, Will. -- as an antagonist.

Date: 10 Feb 2007 09:11:10
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 9, 4:20 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> Yes, it's true, I am but a plaything in the hands of your superior
> intellect.

It is good that you know your place in the divine economy, Jack.

Date: 10 Feb 2007 14:50:51
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 9, 4:20 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Yes, it's true, I am but a plaything in the hands of your superior
>> intellect.
>
> It is good that you know your place in the divine economy, Jack.

What your condescending judgment ignores is Jack's long, distinguished history
on alt.coffee.

Some of his posts in this thread have (perhaps) been over the top. But they
don't even begin to offset the years of original, cogent, and insightful posts
that Jack has offered us.

From what I've seen so far, you, sir, will be posting here for many decades
before the value of your contribution approaches the value of his.

IMHO.

So please, let's abandon this unpleasant detour and get back to posting about
coffee....

--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 20:29:18
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Thanks for your support. I apologize for getting upset and posting off topic
(though someone else started this thread with a reference to the foul Judt
which was only obliquely about coffee and mostly another execuse for him to
spout his twisted views) , but this is a sensitive subject for me given my
family's history. Some people think its all good fun and games to
de-humanize and de-legitimize others but I know that this way lies hell on
earth.

"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:45ce2204$0$28117$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 4:20 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>> Yes, it's true, I am but a plaything in the hands of your superior
>>> intellect.
>>
>> It is good that you know your place in the divine economy, Jack.
>
>
> What your condescending judgment ignores is Jack's long, distinguished
> history on alt.coffee.
>
> Some of his posts in this thread have (perhaps) been over the top. But
> they don't even begin to offset the years of original, cogent, and
> insightful posts that Jack has offered us.
>
> From what I've seen so far, you, sir, will be posting here for many
> decades before the value of your contribution approaches the value of his.
>
> IMHO.
>
> So please, let's abandon this unpleasant detour and get back to posting
> about coffee....
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 02:27:04
From: Alan
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Jack Denver" wrote
> Thanks for your support. I apologize for getting upset and posting off
> topic (though someone else started this thread with a reference to the
> foul Judt which was only obliquely about coffee and mostly another execuse
> for him to spout his twisted views) , but this is a sensitive subject for
> me given my family's history. Some people think its all good fun and
> games to de-humanize and de-legitimize others but I know that this way
> lies hell on earth.

I've no idea what your family's history may have been, but it certainly is
no excuse for claiming that anyone here has "de-humanized" or
"de-legitimized" anyone else. Perhaps I've missed it, but all I've seen
were cogent, reasonably expressed points of view which just happened to be
at odds with your point of view.

Date: 11 Feb 2007 01:44:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

I was really referring more to Judt than anyone here - he's enough of a
public figure to have the potential of his lamebrained ideas being taken
seriously by some and leading to real damage, but if what you saw from
some of the others is your idea of cogent and reasonable, then it's very
different than mine. Andy used the word condescending and that sums it up
pretty well. But I think it's time to let this rest and get back to coffee

"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Y9vzh.20379$zH1.18550@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
.
>
> I've no idea what your family's history may have been, but it certainly is
> no excuse for claiming that anyone here has "de-humanized" or
> "de-legitimized" anyone else. Perhaps I've missed it, but all I've seen
> were cogent, reasonably expressed points of view which just happened to be
> at odds with your point of view.
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 14:50:13
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 9, 1:48 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Jesus, sometimes I think some of us need to switch to decaf. It's getting
> kinda deep in here.
> --
>

Even I am in AWE!

d

Date: 09 Feb 2007 12:39:18
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 9, 1:48 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Jesus, sometimes I think some of us need to switch to decaf. It's getting
> kinda deep in here.

Right you are, Robert. I'm done. Jack is miserable and I'm
entertaining myself by picking on him. Not very nice of me so I'll
stop.

Date: 12 Feb 2007 15:50:16
From: Dr. HotSalt
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 12, 12:05 pm, "Otto Bahn" <e...@eio.com > wrote:
> "Moose" <moose@no_spam.org> wrote in messagenews:5obvs29j7v21s8fvu32kr65v12bsv35vrv@4ax.com...
> > "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
> > >BTW, Judt is way past you. He does not want a Palestian state along side
> > >Israel He recognizes (properly) I think, that such a state would be a
> > >failed state that does not have the elements needed to thrive. Instead he
> > >advocates a single "binational state" encompassing all of Israel and the
> > >occupied territories. If his plan is implemented, Judt will get too keep
> > >his keep his comfortable academic job and his apartment in NY no matter how
> > >many how many die when his retarded idea turns to the inevitable genocide -
> > >this kind of armchair theorizing with no responsibility for results is what
> > >maddens me the most.
>
> > >I think you're completely wrong as well - nothing short of the complete
> > >desctruction of Israel will satisfy the fanatics, who would first eliminate
> > >all internal opposition in an independent Palestine thru civil war and then
> > >go on to use it as base to continue their jihad. Their fellow travelers, the
> > >global terrorists in the Islamist movement, would find a welcome home there
> > >as well. We can glimpse the future of what such a failed state would look
> > >like in Gaza today. Most Israelis would love to have peace but its
> > >impossible to make peace with a people who are dedicated to your
> > >destruction. If the violent fanatics had been willing to lay down their
> > >arms they could have had a Palestinian state already, albeit not one that
> > >includes Tel Aviv and Haifa. Those who think that if the big bad Jooos would
> > >just stop oppressing them, the Palestinians would peacefully tend their
> > >goats and olive trees are living in a fantasy. But this is not the
> > >place to have that discussion.
>
> > >To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you can
> > >tell the difference the next time.
>
> > Hey Jack -
>
> > Ten short hours ago you wrote, "But I think it's time to let this rest
> > and get back to coffee."
>
> > You were right. It's PAST time to let this rest and get back to coffee.
>
> > But no. You couldn't stop. You just had to have the last word. So
> > we're the lucky recipients of yet another harangue.
>
> > Why in God's name couldn't you have sent this off-topic screed to Will
> > via e-mail? Will's e-mail address is <Omni...@gmail.com>. It's
> > plastered all over every one of his posts.
>
> > We all know you are a learned man. You don't need to feel obligated
> > to prove it over and over.
>
> > > But this is not the place to have that discussion.
>
> > AMEN!
>
> Me too!

Then why do I, who don't even give a flying flonk about it to begin
with, have to see it as well WHEN I DON'T EVEN HANG OUT IN ALT
FRIGGING COFFEE????

Also, why doesn't the psot have anything to do with the title?

Dr. HotSalt

Date: 13 Feb 2007 03:21:09
From: Glenn Knickerbocker
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On 12 Feb 2007 15:50:16 -0800, Dr. HotSalt wrote:
> Then why do I, who don't even give a flying flonk about it to begin
>with, have to see it as well WHEN I DON'T EVEN HANG OUT IN ALT
>FRIGGING COFFEE????

I think SOMEbody needs to switch to decaf.

�R - we don't have branes made of clockworks, chocolate maidens
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/arkville.html --the Ur-beatle

Date: 12 Feb 2007 19:26:28
From: Otto Bahn
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Dr. HotSalt" <Alien8752@gmail.com > wrote in

> > > >BTW, Judt is way past you. He does not want a Palestian state along side
> > > >Israel He recognizes (properly) I think, that such a state would be a
> > > >failed state that does not have the elements needed to thrive. Instead he
> > > >advocates a single "binational state" encompassing all of Israel and the
> > > >occupied territories. If his plan is implemented, Judt will get too keep
> > > >his keep his comfortable academic job and his apartment in NY no matter how
> > > >many how many die when his retarded idea turns to the inevitable genocide -
> > > >this kind of armchair theorizing with no responsibility for results is what
> > > >maddens me the most.
> >
> > > >I think you're completely wrong as well - nothing short of the complete
> > > >desctruction of Israel will satisfy the fanatics, who would first eliminate
> > > >all internal opposition in an independent Palestine thru civil war and then
> > > >go on to use it as base to continue their jihad. Their fellow travelers, the
> > > >global terrorists in the Islamist movement, would find a welcome home there
> > > >as well. We can glimpse the future of what such a failed state would look
> > > >like in Gaza today. Most Israelis would love to have peace but its
> > > >impossible to make peace with a people who are dedicated to your
> > > >destruction. If the violent fanatics had been willing to lay down their
> > > >arms they could have had a Palestinian state already, albeit not one that
> > > >includes Tel Aviv and Haifa. Those who think that if the big bad Jooos would
> > > >just stop oppressing them, the Palestinians would peacefully tend their
> > > >goats and olive trees are living in a fantasy. But this is not the
> > > >place to have that discussion.
> >
> > > >To Alan - below is what a cogent response would have looked like, so you can
> > > >tell the difference the next time.
> >
> > > Hey Jack -
> >
> > > Ten short hours ago you wrote, "But I think it's time to let this rest
> > > and get back to coffee."
> >
> > > You were right. It's PAST time to let this rest and get back to coffee.
> >
> > > But no. You couldn't stop. You just had to have the last word. So
> > > we're the lucky recipients of yet another harangue.
> >
> > > Why in God's name couldn't you have sent this off-topic screed to Will
> > > via e-mail? Will's e-mail address is <Omni...@gmail.com>. It's
> > > plastered all over every one of his posts.
> >
> > > We all know you are a learned man. You don't need to feel obligated
> > > to prove it over and over.
> >
> > > > But this is not the place to have that discussion.
> >
> > > AMEN!
> >
> > Me too!
>
> Then why do I, who don't even give a flying flonk about it to begin
> with, have to see it as well WHEN I DON'T EVEN HANG OUT IN ALT
> FRIGGING COFFEE????

You don't have to see it. Get a real browser.

> Also, why doesn't the psot have anything to do with the title?

Threads wander, not unlike cows.

--oTTo--

Date: 09 Feb 2007 16:20:41
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Yes, it's true, I am but a plaything in the hands of your superior
intellect. It's as if you are the brilliant Al Gore explaining global
warming and I am a mere earthling like the slack jawed tools who sit and
watch his slide shows.

Please don't throw me in the briar patch, B'rer Fox!

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171053558.793939.279140@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 9, 1:48 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>> Jesus, sometimes I think some of us need to switch to decaf. It's getting
>> kinda deep in here.
>
> Right you are, Robert. I'm done. Jack is miserable and I'm
> entertaining myself by picking on him. Not very nice of me so I'll
> stop.
>
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 06:02:51
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 8, 10:02 pm, Max <m...@no-spam.invalid > wrote:
> For Christ's sake, take this rant to e-mail Jack!

Careful, Max, your Christocentric rek is clear evidence of rampant
anti-Semitism.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 06:01:23
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Dialoging with you, Jack, is like dueling with an unarmed man. If you
had anything--ANYTHING--to say that made any sense or had an basis in
rationality, it would be fun to keep goading and taunting you. But
picking on you is like shooting a big fish in a small barrel. There
just isn't enough challenge to it to make the endeavor worth my while.

Besides that, I have leftist, P-soodoh-intellectual plots of think up,
drugs to smoke, sandals to wear, and body odor to annoy neocons
with.

I would say have a nice day but paranoid personalities almost never
have a nice day, do they?

Have a day.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 13:43:22
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Yes, yes, I admit it, you are just so much better than me or anyone else. I
bow down before your superior intellect and rhetorical skills! All hail!

How could I possibly have a nice day when the war criminal Bush still reigns
in Washington, our globe is warming (it's 23F here today - this is proof
certain) , there is no justice for Palestinians and other oppressed peoples,
Iran is not allowed to pursue its sovereign rights to peaceful nuclear
power, etc.?

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171029683.551185.36990@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Dialoging with you, Jack, is like dueling with an unarmed man. If you
> had anything--ANYTHING--to say that made any sense or had an basis in
> rationality, it would be fun to keep goading and taunting you. But
> picking on you is like shooting a big fish in a small barrel. There
> just isn't enough challenge to it to make the endeavor worth my while.
>
> Besides that, I have leftist, P-soodoh-intellectual plots of think up,
> drugs to smoke, sandals to wear, and body odor to annoy neocons
> with.
>
> I would say have a nice day but paranoid personalities almost never
> have a nice day, do they?
>
> Have a day.
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 18:48:37
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Jesus, sometimes I think some of us need to switch to decaf. It's getting
kinda deep in here.
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:t5OdndF9Ta9XXVHYnZ2dnUVZ_smonZ2d@comcast.com...
> Yes, yes, I admit it, you are just so much better than me or anyone else.
> I bow down before your superior intellect and rhetorical skills! All
> hail!
>
> How could I possibly have a nice day when the war criminal Bush still
> reigns in Washington, our globe is warming (it's 23F here today - this is
> proof certain) , there is no justice for Palestinians and other oppressed
> peoples, Iran is not allowed to pursue its sovereign rights to peaceful
> nuclear power, etc.?
>
>
> <Omniryx@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171029683.551185.36990@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Dialoging with you, Jack, is like dueling with an unarmed man. If you
>> had anything--ANYTHING--to say that made any sense or had an basis in
>> rationality, it would be fun to keep goading and taunting you. But
>> picking on you is like shooting a big fish in a small barrel. There
>> just isn't enough challenge to it to make the endeavor worth my while.
>>
>> Besides that, I have leftist, P-soodoh-intellectual plots of think up,
>> drugs to smoke, sandals to wear, and body odor to annoy neocons
>> with.
>>
>> I would say have a nice day but paranoid personalities almost never
>> have a nice day, do they?
>>
>> Have a day.
>>
>
>

Date: 07 Feb 2007 16:38:59
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:44:53 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>It doesn't make any difference what those fools believe - the head choppers
>don't distinguish at all between Zionists and Jews. Ask Daniel Pearl if he
>is anti-Zionist Jew. Or ask Leon Klinghoffer. Oh wait, you can't - they're
>dead.
>

Pearl and Klinghoffer are, of course, individuals with names,
histories and grieving relatives in front of the media glare. It does
not diminish their murders at all to note that uncountable, but unseen
and nameless, Palestinian men women and children have died brutal,
cruel and meaningless deaths at the hands of Israelis. Each had a
name, a history and left grieving relatives. But they are invisible.
Collateral damage.

I'm not in any way making excuses for the murderers of Klinghoffer,
Pearl and hundreds of suicide bomb victims, but there is plenty of
guilt and plenty of shame to go around. Everyone who notices is not
simply anti-Semetic. That's self-serving and simplistic name-calling.
I would have thought that you were intelligent enough to know it.

_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Date: 07 Feb 2007 20:57:58
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

As I mentioned before, the world (and especially the Arab world and
especially the left) seems to "notice" Israeli actions more than any other
kind. Arab dictators routinely murder thousands and this barely gets
"noticed" or commented on, the residents of Gaza kill each other, Sunnis
kill Shiites and vice versa by the thousand (not to mention all the stuff
that goes on in Africa, Indonesia, N. Korea, all over the place) , but if
one nervous teenage Israeli soldier mistakes a rock throwing boy for a
grenade thrower (and there are plenty of rock throwing boys) then the
pictures are on Page 1. Jimmy Carter writes a book accusing Israel of being
an apartheid state even though there must be 50 countries with worse human
rights records (starting with Saudi Arabia where there is no freedom of
religion and women are treated like cattle). I consider selective "noticing"
to be a form of anti - Semitism as I have already stated.

<Roque Ja > wrote in message
news:enrks2dk95ilr4uvfe669tf0kdpp4aoc94@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:44:53 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>It doesn't make any difference what those fools believe - the head
>>choppers
>>don't distinguish at all between Zionists and Jews. Ask Daniel Pearl if he
>>is anti-Zionist Jew. Or ask Leon Klinghoffer. Oh wait, you can't - they're
>>dead.
>>
>
> Pearl and Klinghoffer are, of course, individuals with names,
> histories and grieving relatives in front of the media glare. It does
> not diminish their murders at all to note that uncountable, but unseen
> and nameless, Palestinian men women and children have died brutal,
> cruel and meaningless deaths at the hands of Israelis. Each had a
> name, a history and left grieving relatives. But they are invisible.
> Collateral damage.
>
> I'm not in any way making excuses for the murderers of Klinghoffer,
> Pearl and hundreds of suicide bomb victims, but there is plenty of
> guilt and plenty of shame to go around. Everyone who notices is not
> simply anti-Semetic. That's self-serving and simplistic name-calling.
> I would have thought that you were intelligent enough to know it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
>

Date: 10 Feb 2007 15:39:37
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 10, 5:29 pm, "Omni...@gmail.com" <Omni...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2:50 pm, Andy Schecter
>
> <schec...@remove.me.rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> > From what I've seen so far, you, sir, will be posting here for many decades
> > before the value of your contribution approaches the value of his.
>
> Andy, I respect your knowledge enormously but, happily, my ego
> strength does not depend on your affirmation. Further, I do not
> suffer fools gladly. Jack may be profoundly knowledgeable about
> coffee but his vitriolic, dismissive, ideological Ultra-Zionist
> rhetoric does not earn him my respect and it should not earn him
> yours, either.
>
> His posts have been far uglier than all the folks who have opposed
> him. So chide him, sir, and then chide the rest of us. Then perhaps
> we can take YOUR opinion seriously.

on and on and on . . . .

Date: 08 Feb 2007 06:31:59
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

I wonder if this would be a good time to bring up gun control and abortion,
while we're at it?

I read something today, to the effect that people's appetite for cruelty
has diminished a great deal over the centuries. Today we'd be repelled
by things our ancestors found entertaining - civil punishments, or even
cruelties visited on innocent parties just for the entertaining spectacle.

I don't know for sure that it's true, but I do feel, I guess more as a
matter of faith, that when it's between individuals known to each other
as such, we're far more reliably humane than when we deal with others
as mobs.

"Mob" is not the word we normally use to describe our communities, but
I think we can all recognize the pattern of strident rhetoric that fuels
the regression from humane to inhumane, and we can all see it at work
in the world, and we can see that there are always people who benefit
from perpetually unresolved conflicts. We become their tools, when we
get caught up in it. I can't tell you to drop your rhetorical weapons
and let the other side win (as if winning were really the point of the
people in the driver's seat), but I propose that if there is a place
for it, it ain't alt.coffee.

Donn

Date: 08 Feb 2007 11:48:30
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

"Donn Cave" <donn@drizzle.com > wrote in message
news:1170916318.672789@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
>I wonder if this would be a good time to bring up gun control and abortion,
> while we're at it?
>
> I read something today, to the effect that people's appetite for cruelty
> has diminished a great deal over the centuries. Today we'd be repelled
> by things our ancestors found entertaining - civil punishments, or even
> cruelties visited on innocent parties just for the entertaining spectacle.
>
> I don't know for sure that it's true, but I do feel, I guess more as a
> matter of faith, that when it's between individuals known to each other
> as such, we're far more reliably humane than when we deal with others
> as mobs.
>
> "Mob" is not the word we normally use to describe our communities, but
> I think we can all recognize the pattern of strident rhetoric that fuels
> the regression from humane to inhumane, and we can all see it at work
> in the world, and we can see that there are always people who benefit
> from perpetually unresolved conflicts. We become their tools, when we
> get caught up in it. I can't tell you to drop your rhetorical weapons
> and let the other side win (as if winning were really the point of the
> people in the driver's seat), but I propose that if there is a place
> for it, it ain't alt.coffee.
>
> Donn

Very well put, Donn!

thank you.

let's just get back to the good 'ol ad hominem attacks, flames, redundant
discussions of tearing apart perfectly functioning machines, backflsuhing
and other more routine pursuits!

DAve

Date: 08 Feb 2007 11:50:40
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Date: 08 Feb 2007 01:03:09
From: Stuart Hudson
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Roque Ja wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:44:53 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> It doesn't make any difference what those fools believe - the head choppers
>> don't distinguish at all between Zionists and Jews. Ask Daniel Pearl if he
>> is anti-Zionist Jew. Or ask Leon Klinghoffer. Oh wait, you can't - they're
>> dead.
>>
>
> Pearl and Klinghoffer are, of course, individuals with names,
> histories and grieving relatives in front of the media glare. It does
> not diminish their murders at all to note that uncountable, but unseen
> and nameless, Palestinian men women and children have died brutal,
> cruel and meaningless deaths at the hands of Israelis. Each had a
> name, a history and left grieving relatives. But they are invisible.
> Collateral damage.
>
> I'm not in any way making excuses for the murderers of Klinghoffer,
> Pearl and hundreds of suicide bomb victims, but there is plenty of
> guilt and plenty of shame to go around. Everyone who notices is not
> simply anti-Semetic. That's self-serving and simplistic name-calling.
> I would have thought that you were intelligent enough to know it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
I agree with your point.
Stuart Hudson

Date: 06 Feb 2007 12:28:20
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 5, 11:11 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> Next time I won't pull my punches. Guys like Judt really upset me because
> my family has paid a very heavy price in the last century for the
> ideological fantasies of wacos like him who wanted to remold the resistant
> clay of human nature according to their intellectual plans. His beautiful
> paper fantasies of a "binational state" of Arabs and Jews where Israel
> used to stand and an America that was not "squalid and meretricious" in
> his eyes could only be realized thru unimaginable bloodshed in real life
> (the Arabs can't even live with each other in one state) - either his head
> is too far up his ass to know this or he knows and doesn't care. If he gets
> eaten by a mountain lion tomorrow I wouldn't care.

Oh, Jack, Jack, Jack. Can you not discern a difference between being
opposed to the actions of the state of Israel and being antisemitic?
Get a grip. I realize that you are a conservative but even
conservatives aren't usually that stupid. Your president aside, of
course.

But what do I know. I'm just another leftist commie, full of
intellectual plans.

Date: 06 Feb 2007 17:57:29
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1170793700.475053.31730@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Oh, Jack, Jack, Jack. Can you not discern a difference between being
> opposed to the actions of the state of Israel and being antisemitic?
>>
Judt goes well beyond being opposed to the actions of the State of Israel -
he calls for the dissolution of the state itself. If he is not an
anti-Semite himself, this point of view certainly puts him in the company of
those who are. Israel is now so wrapped up with the identity of the Jewish
people that I don't know whether Judaism could withstand another catastrophe
after all that has happened in the last century, so as a practical matter I
don't believe that there is really any meaningful difference any more
between an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite.

But brilliant intellectuals such as yourself can make such fine
distinctions. In Germany there used to be brilliant intellectuals such as
Judt. The SS gassed them the same as all the other Jews. In Russia,
intellectuals such as yourself, so much wiser and more educated than their
leadiers, used to debate the fine distinctions between permanent revolution
and revolution in one country. Stalin packed them all off to the Gulag. Too
bad that Iranian missiles won't distinguish between Zionists and progressive
believers in the binational state either.

Date: 05 Feb 2007 21:02:39
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

I've rarely seen such a strained and poor analogy. The minute I read it I
realized it must have been written by some leftist zombie and it was - it's
by Tony Judt, who is an anti-Semitic piece of shit who wants to see Israel
destroyed in favor of a "binational state". Like one of those self-hating
Jews that attended the Holocaust denial conference in Teheran. Why do these
leftist pieces of excrement always hate both America and Israel? Is it in
the leftoid contract that you have to hate both?

Chicken littles have been saying that the American way of life is
"unsustainable" for a least 100 years now, probably longer. We were supposed
to run out of oil, food, space, everything. And every year our economy grows
further. "Aesthetically unpleasing" - you can take your condescension and
stick it where the sun don't shine. Our economy is built on "other people's
money"? What is the European economy built on? Our future is fading and
we have turned to religion. "Internal contradictions", "Imperialism",
"Opiate of the Masses". Judt doesn't have one original idea - he gets this
crap straight from Das Kapital. He could have written this same analysis in
1907 and it would have been just as wrong then.

Coffee analogy or not, please don't pollute this group with the ravings of
this syphilitic idiot.

<Roque Ja > wrote in message
news:kbres2958t0jda2d6e07l2pt565v1hcvcn@4ax.com...
> "Consider a mug of American coffee. It is found everywhere. It can be
> made by anyone. It is cheap and refills are free. Being largely
> without flavor it can be diluted to taste. What it lacks in allure it
> makes up in size. It is the most democratic method ever devised for
> introducing caffeine into human beings. Now take a cup of Italian
> espresso. It requires expensive equipment. Price-to-volume ratio is
> outrageous, suggesting indifference to the consumer and ignorance of
> the ket. The aesthetic satisfaction accessory to the beverage far
> outweighs its metabolic impact. It is not a drink; it is an artifact.
>
> "This contrast can stand for the differences between America and
> Europe differences nowadays asserted with increased frequency and not
> a little acrimony on both sides of the Atlantic. The mutual criticisms
> are familiar. To American commentators Europe is "stagnant." Its
> workers, employers, and regulations lack the flexibility and
> adaptability of their US counterparts. The costs of European social
> welfare payments and public services are "unsustainable." Europe's
> aging and "cosseted" populations are underproductive and
> self-satisfied. In a globalized world, the "European social model" is
> a doomed mirage. This conclusion is typically drawn even by "liberal"
> American observers, who differ from conservative (and neoconservative)
> critics only in deriving no pleasure from it.
>
> "To a growing number of Europeans, however, it is America that is in
> trouble and the "American way of life" that cannot be sustained. The
> American pursuit of wealth, size, and abundance as material surrogates
> for happiness is aesthetically unpleasing and ecologically
> catastrophic. The American economy is built on sand (or, more
> precisely, other people's money). For many Americans the promise of a
> better future is a fading hope. Contemporary mass culture in the US is
> squalid and meretricious. No wonder so many Americans turn to the
> church for solace. "
>
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Date: 06 Feb 2007 04:01:06
From: Alan
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

((Jack Denver's top-posting has been corrected))

"Jack Denver" wrote
<Roque Ja > wrote
>> "Consider a mug of American coffee. It is found everywhere. It can be
>> made by anyone. It is cheap and refills are free. Being largely
>> without flavor it can be diluted to taste. What it lacks in allure it
>> makes up in size. It is the most democratic method ever devised for
>> introducing caffeine into human beings. Now take a cup of Italian
>> espresso. It requires expensive equipment. Price-to-volume ratio is
>> outrageous, suggesting indifference to the consumer and ignorance of
>> the ket. The aesthetic satisfaction accessory to the beverage far
>> outweighs its metabolic impact. It is not a drink; it is an artifact.
>>
>> "This contrast can stand for the differences between America and
>> Europe differences nowadays asserted with increased frequency and not
>> a little acrimony on both sides of the Atlantic. The mutual criticisms
>> are familiar. To American commentators Europe is "stagnant." Its
>> workers, employers, and regulations lack the flexibility and
>> adaptability of their US counterparts. The costs of European social
>> welfare payments and public services are "unsustainable." Europe's
>> aging and "cosseted" populations are underproductive and
>> self-satisfied. In a globalized world, the "European social model" is
>> a doomed mirage. This conclusion is typically drawn even by "liberal"
>> American observers, who differ from conservative (and neoconservative)
>> critics only in deriving no pleasure from it.
>>
>> "To a growing number of Europeans, however, it is America that is in
>> trouble and the "American way of life" that cannot be sustained. The
>> American pursuit of wealth, size, and abundance as material surrogates
>> for happiness is aesthetically unpleasing and ecologically
>> catastrophic. The American economy is built on sand (or, more
>> precisely, other people's money). For many Americans the promise of a
>> better future is a fading hope. Contemporary mass culture in the US is
>> squalid and meretricious. No wonder so many Americans turn to the
>> church for solace. "
>>
>> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726

> I've rarely seen such a strained and poor analogy. The minute I read it
> I realized it must have been written by some leftist zombie and it was -
> it's by Tony Judt, who is an anti-Semitic piece of shit who wants to see
> Israel destroyed in favor of a "binational state". Like one of those
> self-hating Jews that attended the Holocaust denial conference in Teheran.
> Why do these leftist pieces of excrement always hate both America and
> Israel? Is it in the leftoid contract that you have to hate both?
>
> Chicken littles have been saying that the American way of life is
> "unsustainable" for a least 100 years now, probably longer. We were
> supposed to run out of oil, food, space, everything. And every year our
> economy grows further.

[...] (the rest of Denver's little rant has been mercifully snipped)

To say that "our economy grows further" is meaningless (as well as lacking
grammatical sense ---- since when is economic growth referred to in terms of
distance?).Yes, more money is being made --- no doubt about that. However,
just a cursory look at this economy will tell you that while there's a small
sector (which becomes smaller every year) making tons more money, there is
the other sector (pretty much the rest of us) who are making less, enjoying
decreased buying power, working longer hours, etc. You don't need to employ
xian analysis to see the writing on the wall. So stop already with your
"booming economy" crap.

And since Judt's article had nothing at all to do with Israel and Palestine
or a binational state, what's your purpose in ranting about THAT subject?
There is, of course, no point in addressing your ridiculous assertion that
Judt is anti-Semitic . . .

P.S. Thank you, Roque Ja, for the link to Judt's article.

--
Alan

Date: 05 Feb 2007 20:36:31
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Jack Denver wrote:

> I've rarely seen such a strained and poor analogy. The minute I read it I
> realized it must have been written by some leftist zombie and it was - it's
> by Tony Judt, who is an anti-Semitic piece of shit who wants to see Israel
> destroyed in favor of a "binational state". Like one of those self-hating
> Jews that attended the Holocaust denial conference in Teheran. Why do these
> leftist pieces of excrement always hate both America and Israel? Is it in
> the leftoid contract that you have to hate both?
>
> Chicken littles have been saying that the American way of life is
> "unsustainable" for a least 100 years now, probably longer. We were supposed
> to run out of oil, food, space, everything. And every year our economy grows
> further. "Aesthetically unpleasing" - you can take your condescension and
> stick it where the sun don't shine. Our economy is built on "other people's
> money"? What is the European economy built on? Our future is fading and
> we have turned to religion. "Internal contradictions", "Imperialism",
> "Opiate of the Masses". Judt doesn't have one original idea - he gets this
> crap straight from Das Kapital. He could have written this same analysis in
> 1907 and it would have been just as wrong then.
>
> Coffee analogy or not, please don't pollute this group with the ravings of
> this syphilitic idiot.
>
>
>
>
>

Heck, Jack, if you don't like the guy just come out and say it.
Bernie

Date: 05 Feb 2007 23:11:14
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

Next time I won't pull my punches. Guys like Judt really upset me because
my family has paid a very heavy price in the last century for the
ideological fantasies of wacos like him who wanted to remold the resistant
clay of human nature according to their intellectual plans. His beautiful
paper fantasies of a "binational state" of Arabs and Jews where Israel
used to stand and an America that was not "squalid and meretricious" in
his eyes could only be realized thru unimaginable bloodshed in real life
(the Arabs can't even live with each other in one state) - either his head
is too far up his ass to know this or he knows and doesn't care. If he gets
eaten by a mountain lion tomorrow I wouldn't care.

"bernie" <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote in message
news:45c7f7c2$1@nntp.zianet.com...
> >>
>>
>
> Heck, Jack, if you don't like the guy just come out and say it.
> Bernie
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 08:01:40
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: can y'all STOP this BS ??

On Feb 9, 9:13 am, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com > wrote:
> why don't you both just STOP!

Dave, bubba, you in a po' position to tell people ta stop pos'n junk.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 16:39:52
From: daveb
Subject: Re: can y'all STOP this BS ??

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 06:13:20 -0800, daveb wrote:

> why don't you both just STOP!
> (or can you?)
>
>
> swap phone numbers, emails, this is just absurd.

~

Date: 09 Feb 2007 06:13:20
From: daveb
Subject: Re: can y'all STOP this BS ??

why don't you both just STOP!
(or can you?)

swap phone numbers, emails, this is just absurd.

dave

Date: 09 Feb 2007 06:08:21
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 8, 5:56 pm, hfw <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> I take the story seriously. Which is not the same as taking the story
> literally.

Of course, Heidi. You are exactly right. Scriptures, be they
Hebraic, Christian, or Zoroastrian, are valuable for their metaphoric
truths.

Anyone who is fool enough to believe that Noah really sailed around in
a big boat filled with anny-mules (not to mention, of course, birds,
insects, bacteria, molds, viruses, and flora of all kinds) may line up
over here on the left. We've got a great deal for you on a bridge...

That doesn't mean that the story is without value. Just without
historical value.

Date: 05 Feb 2007 19:35:11
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:02:39 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>I've rarely seen such a strained and poor analogy. The minute I read it I
>realized it must have been written by some leftist zombie and it was - it's
>by Tony Judt, who is an anti-Semitic piece of shit who wants to see Israel
>destroyed in favor of a "binational state". Like one of those self-hating
>Jews that attended the Holocaust denial conference in Teheran. Why do these
>leftist pieces of excrement always hate both America and Israel? Is it in
>the leftoid contract that you have to hate both?
>
>Chicken littles have been saying that the American way of life is
>"unsustainable" for a least 100 years now, probably longer. We were supposed
>to run out of oil, food, space, everything. And every year our economy grows
>further. "Aesthetically unpleasing" - you can take your condescension and
>stick it where the sun don't shine. Our economy is built on "other people's
>money"? What is the European economy built on? Our future is fading and
>we have turned to religion. "Internal contradictions", "Imperialism",
>"Opiate of the Masses". Judt doesn't have one original idea - he gets this
>crap straight from Das Kapital. He could have written this same analysis in
>1907 and it would have been just as wrong then.
>
>Coffee analogy or not, please don't pollute this group with the ravings of
>this syphilitic idiot.
>

Odd, the only references I see to Israel are 1: They get a large
fraction of the American international aid dollars. And, 2, Israel,
along with Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Egypt supports an
international court opposed by the USA. Guess I missed the
anti-semetic bits. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good
rant.

Used to be folks got called Nazis all over usenet. Not so much anymore
as Godwin's Law -- that the first person who hurls the Nazi epithet
loses -- has become the cliche response. Seems Mr. Denver has taken
the other tack: "Disagree with me and you're a commie." Cliche holds
at both extremes in my view. Don't bother to think when you can raise
the specter of Karl x.

I don't know Mr Judt's writings that well. I suppose he finds some of
Israeli's excesses objectionable. I find it interesting that this
point of view now qualifies a person as an anti-Semite. Sounds like
trick learned from Karl Rove: The racist right stakes a claim to the
high ground by labeling anyone who says anything negative about
Israeli's excesses an anit-Semite. Unless of course it's a Jew, then
it's self-hatred.

In any case, I'd feel a lot better about the racist right's support
for Israel if it were grounded in something a bit more reassuring than
their belief that it's the next big step toward hastening the end of
the world.

_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Date: 05 Feb 2007 17:22:42
From:
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Feb 5, 12:49 pm, Roque Ja wrote:
> "Consider a mug of American coffee. It is found everywhere. It can be
> made by anyone. It is cheap and refills are free. Being largely
> without flavor it can be diluted to taste. What it lacks in allure it
> makes up in size. It is the most democratic method ever devised for
> introducing caffeine into human beings. Now take a cup of Italian
> espresso. It requires expensive equipment. Price-to-volume ratio is
> outrageous, suggesting indifference to the consumer and ignorance of
> the ket. The aesthetic satisfaction accessory to the beverage far
> outweighs its metabolic impact. It is not a drink; it is an artifact.
>
> "This contrast can stand for the differences between America and
> Europe differences nowadays asserted with increased frequency and not
> a little acrimony on both sides of the Atlantic. The mutual criticisms
> are familiar. To American commentators Europe is "stagnant." Its
> workers, employers, and regulations lack the flexibility and
> adaptability of their US counterparts. The costs of European social
> welfare payments and public services are "unsustainable." Europe's
> aging and "cosseted" populations are underproductive and
> self-satisfied. In a globalized world, the "European social model" is
> a doomed mirage. This conclusion is typically drawn even by "liberal"
> American observers, who differ from conservative (and neoconservative)
> critics only in deriving no pleasure from it.
>
> "To a growing number of Europeans, however, it is America that is in
> trouble and the "American way of life" that cannot be sustained. The
> American pursuit of wealth, size, and abundance as material surrogates
> for happiness is aesthetically unpleasing and ecologically
> catastrophic. The American economy is built on sand (or, more
> precisely, other people's money). For many Americans the promise of a
> better future is a fading hope. Contemporary mass culture in the US is
> squalid and meretricious. No wonder so many Americans turn to the
> church for solace. "
>
> http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Although I haven't travelled extensively in Europe my parents are
European and almost all my family is living there as well. From the
dozen or so times I've visited family in Europe the deep history and
age of the cultures is apparent and prevalent. For the most part the
industrially developed nations enjoying a similar standard of living
to North America favour a socialist democracy. I don't know if it's
changed but there are expectations and demands on average working
North Americans that the average European wouldn't tolerate. Give
North Americans some time, though, and things might change.

Good food and good drink reflect different standards and motivations
in Europe which account, I think, for a different work ethic and more
conprehensive social programs and benefits. Work is a means to live
not life itself.

As well, Europe is a collection of nations and cultures not only with
differing histories but at different stages of economic development.
Unifying Europe is not easy but the attempt shows the forward thinking
and diplomatic capability inherent in the European mind and
character. Conservative, maybe, but stagnant? Hardly.

Based on it's standards and motivations America, IMHO, is not
sustainable and the signs have been evident for some time. The coffee
analogy is fitting. Big, cheap, quick and produced for mass
consumption and essentially tasteless vs. smaller, more expensive but
produced with experience and care to provide a product to be savoured
and enjoyed. Profit vs. life. Give me life.

Date: 05 Feb 2007 12:23:11
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:49:51 -0800, Roque Ja wrote:

>"Consider a mug of American coffee. ... Now take a cup of Italian
>espresso. ...
>
>"This contrast can stand for the differences between America and
>Europe differences nowadays asserted with increased frequency and not
>a little acrimony on both sides of the Atlantic.

It's a lot more fun to assert these differences than to travel around
a bit and see how alike we've become. The beers, wines and quesadillas
at Barry's party were much the same as those in a subruban Munich
beergarden I ate at two years ago.

Over these identical foods, I know the profoundly metaphysical
US/Europe differences were discussed at the Beer garden; don't recall
that from Barry's party, but I guess it's bound to happen hereabouts
too.

Date: 05 Feb 2007 20:04:47
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:23:11 -0600, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>It's a lot more fun to assert these differences than to travel around
>a bit and see how alike we've become. The beers, wines and quesadillas
>at Barry's party were much the same as those in a subruban Munich
>beergarden I ate at two years ago.
>

quesadillas? we had quesadillas??

--barry "i always miss something"

Date: 06 Feb 2007 06:59:15
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:04:47 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> >It's a lot more fun to assert these differences than to travel around
> >a bit and see how alike we've become. The beers, wines and quesadillas
> >at Barry's party were much the same as those in a subruban Munich
> >beergarden I ate at two years ago.
> >
>
>quesadillas? we had quesadillas??

My Mexican ignorance is showing ... what were those things with
cheese, guacaole, olives, etc. and nachos for scooping?

Date: 06 Feb 2007 22:18:54
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 06:59:15 -0600, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:04:47 GMT, Barry Jarrett
><barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
>> >It's a lot more fun to assert these differences than to travel around
>> >a bit and see how alike we've become. The beers, wines and quesadillas
>> >at Barry's party were much the same as those in a subruban Munich
>> >beergarden I ate at two years ago.
>> >
>>
>>quesadillas? we had quesadillas??
>
>My Mexican ignorance is showing ... what were those things with
>cheese, guacaole, olives, etc. and nachos for scooping?

The simplest (and probably most authentic) quesadilla is just a
tortilla folded over cheese, which is heated to melt the cheese.

shall

Date: 07 Feb 2007 00:13:21
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:18:54 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>The simplest (and probably most authentic) quesadilla is just a
>tortilla folded over cheese, which is heated to melt the cheese.

and one of mad's favorites... it's fun to watch a 2-yr old order
"kay sah dee ya, pleez" in a restaurant.

Date: 06 Feb 2007 19:19:30
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Coffee as Metaphor for US/Europe Cutural Divide

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 06:59:15 -0600, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 20:04:47 GMT, Barry Jarrett
><barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
>> >It's a lot more fun to assert these differences than to travel around
>> >a bit and see how alike we've become. The beers, wines and quesadillas
>> >at Barry's party were much the same as those in a subruban Munich
>> >beergarden I ate at two years ago.
>> >
>>
>>quesadillas? we had quesadillas??
>
>My Mexican ignorance is showing ... what were those things with
>cheese, guacaole, olives, etc. and nachos for scooping?

that was some layered dip...

quesadillas are completely different, and maddie's favorite mex food.