coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main
Date: 01 Feb 2007 00:20:19
From: SnizbutsDad
Subject: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
Just got back from a great holiday in Rome, had loads of great coffee
but I noticed that all the cappuccinos I tried were served quite cool,
certainly to my taste, even at Cafe Greco. The only one I had that was
hot enough was an espresso macchiato served actually in the shot
glass. I like my cappuccinos at about 70 degrees C. Am I drinking my
cappuccinos too hot?





 
Date: 02 Feb 2007 04:12:45
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
On Feb 1, 12:56 pm, "Amy F." <amyferra...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:

> I think it has more to do with the fact that above around 60 C milk
> starts to take on a "cooked" flavor, and a little beyond that, it
> starts to taste salty instead of sweet. OP, did you notice when you
> were in Rome that the capps were sweeter than the really hot ones we
> tend get in the states? You could try heating your milk a little less
> at home and see if you notice a difference.

Wow, all of the stuff I'd read and heard indicated that you should
heat your milk to about 155f, allowing some overshoot to about 160,
but you didn't want to go over 160. You guys are basically saying
don't go over about 130-140 (55-60c). this is substantially cooler
than I've been steaming. I'll have to try it.

Thanks for the continuing education,

-Ray



  
Date: 04 Feb 2007 20:42:02
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
ramboorider@gmail.com wrote:

> Wow, all of the stuff I'd read and heard indicated that you should
> heat your milk to about 155f, allowing some overshoot to about 160,
> but you didn't want to go over 160. You guys are basically saying
> don't go over about 130-140 (55-60c). this is substantially cooler
> than I've been steaming. I'll have to try it.
>
> Thanks for the continuing education,
>
> -Ray
>

You aren't doing anything wrong. 140F is about right for cappuccino,
and we steam to 155F routinely, as customers complain if much cooler,
especially when drinking outside in the winter. 170F + is in milk
scalding territory.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



   
Date: 06 Feb 2007 09:39:33
From: JC Dill
Subject: Scalding milk (was Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome)
On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:42:02 +0000, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

>You aren't doing anything wrong. 140F is about right for cappuccino,
>and we steam to 155F routinely,

When I first learned how to steam milk for espresso drinks 20 years
ago, I was taught to steam to 155-160 F.

>as customers complain if much cooler,
>especially when drinking outside in the winter. 170F + is in milk
>scalding territory.

I got into a discussion about scalding a few days ago. My friend was
certain that scalding was a process of heating milk without stiring, I
was certain it meant heating it to a certain temp rather than heating
it a certain way. We cracked open books - Larousse Gastronomique
didn't have a better answer, and neither did Joy of Cooking. (I can't
find my copy of So I went and researched the term online. Numerous
online sites say scalding (a liquid) is the process of raising a
liquid (usually but not always milk) to just below the boiling point.

<http://www.baking911.com/howto/milk_scald.htm >
<http://home.ivillage.com/cooking/technique/0,,38fk,00.html >

I tried to find an actual boiling/scalding point of milk and came up
empty. Most cites said "milk boils at about the same temp as water
(212 F) or a bit higher" but I couldn't find any site that named an
actual temperature.

Assuming that milk really does boil at or around 212 F, then I'm
curious as to why 50 degrees below the boiling point is considered
scalding, or if the process of "scalding" the milk is different when
heating it in a pan versus heating it with steam. I'd love if someone
could point me at a cite (online or in a book) that gives a
temperature *and* that explains exactly what happens at this "below
boiling temperature" to produce the effect we call scalding.

Finally, WRT to heating milk for espresso drinks, why is scalding
detrimental? Does it change the flavor, or change the texture, or
both?

Thanks!

jc

--

"The nice thing about a e is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."
~ Eileen Morgan of The e's Nest, PA


    
Date: 06 Feb 2007 14:00:02
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Scalding milk (was Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome)

"JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1gdhs2lvnnrone63sfvc0f97ebsp20u80r@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 20:42:02 +0000, Danny
> <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>
>>You aren't doing anything wrong. 140F is about right for cappuccino,
>>and we steam to 155F routinely,
>
> When I first learned how to steam milk for espresso drinks 20 years
> ago, I was taught to steam to 155-160 F.
>
>>as customers complain if much cooler,
>>especially when drinking outside in the winter. 170F + is in milk
>>scalding territory.
>
> I got into a discussion about scalding a few days ago. My friend was
> certain that scalding was a process of heating milk without stiring, I
> was certain it meant heating it to a certain temp rather than heating
> it a certain way. We cracked open books - Larousse Gastronomique
> didn't have a better answer, and neither did Joy of Cooking. (I can't
> find my copy of So I went and researched the term online. Numerous
> online sites say scalding (a liquid) is the process of raising a
> liquid (usually but not always milk) to just below the boiling point.
>
> <http://www.baking911.com/howto/milk_scald.htm>
> <http://home.ivillage.com/cooking/technique/0,,38fk,00.html>
>
> I tried to find an actual boiling/scalding point of milk and came up
> empty. Most cites said "milk boils at about the same temp as water
> (212 F) or a bit higher" but I couldn't find any site that named an
> actual temperature.
>
> Assuming that milk really does boil at or around 212 F, then I'm
> curious as to why 50 degrees below the boiling point is considered
> scalding, or if the process of "scalding" the milk is different when
> heating it in a pan versus heating it with steam. I'd love if someone
> could point me at a cite (online or in a book) that gives a
> temperature *and* that explains exactly what happens at this "below
> boiling temperature" to produce the effect we call scalding.
>
> Finally, WRT to heating milk for espresso drinks, why is scalding
> detrimental? Does it change the flavor, or change the texture, or
> both?
>
> Thanks!
>
> jc
>
> --
>
> "The nice thing about a e is you get to ride a lot
> of different horses without having to own that many."
> ~ Eileen Morgan of The e's Nest, PA


Scalded milk in cooking/baking is milk heated to the point of
pasturization, 180F.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-01,GGLD:en&q=Scaulded+milk%2c+what+temp

I have a post here with an explanation:
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/279416#279416
Craig.



    
Date: 06 Feb 2007 13:52:39
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Scalding milk (was Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome)
> I got into a discussion about scalding a few days ago. My friend was
> certain that scalding was a process of heating milk without stiring, I
> was certain it meant heating it to a certain temp rather than heating
> it a certain way.

To me, scalded milk is milk heated very hot, but never boiling (if it boils you
throw it away), but more importantly, it is the point at which the milk is
'cooked', that is when the proteins are converted by heat. This gives the mild a
different flavor and texture. The flavor of scaled milk cooled to drinking
temperatures is not unlike custard.

Dan



     
Date: 06 Feb 2007 16:55:11
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Scalding milk (was Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome)
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:52:39 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>> I got into a discussion about scalding a few days ago. My friend was
>> certain that scalding was a process of heating milk without stiring, I
>> was certain it meant heating it to a certain temp rather than heating
>> it a certain way.
>
>To me, scalded milk is milk heated very hot, but never boiling (if it boils you
>throw it away), but more importantly, it is the point at which the milk is
>'cooked', that is when the proteins are converted by heat. This gives the mild a
>different flavor and texture. The flavor of scaled milk cooled to drinking
>temperatures is not unlike custard.
>
>Dan

I have people from time to time asking me for a latte or chai extra
hot. I boil it and warn them not to hurt themselves. Never had a
complaint, and some of them actually sip it on the way out and
exclaim, "perfect." Not sure how they aren't burning their tongues.
The rumble and roll of milk boiling is very easy to hear and feel when
steaming.

Most of the coffee and espresso that I personally drink is room
temperature. I pour myself coffee or drink odd numbered shots
throughout the day but rarely have time to sip at the time I pour.

North Sullivan





      
Date: 07 Feb 2007 09:08:20
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Scalding milk (was Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome)
North Sullivan wrote:

> I have people from time to time asking me for a latte or chai extra
> hot. I boil it and warn them not to hurt themselves. Never had a
> complaint, and some of them actually sip it on the way out and
> exclaim, "perfect." Not sure how they aren't burning their tongues.
> The rumble and roll of milk boiling is very easy to hear and feel when
> steaming.
>
> Most of the coffee and espresso that I personally drink is room
> temperature. I pour myself coffee or drink odd numbered shots
> throughout the day but rarely have time to sip at the time I pour.
>
> North Sullivan

Same here. I have two customers who complain that our coffee is too
cold (150-160) so we steam to 180 and they like it. We don't go the
lowest rumble :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



    
Date: 06 Feb 2007 13:44:18
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: Scalding milk (was Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome)
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:39:33 -0800, JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com > wrote:

>I got into a discussion about scalding a few days ago. My friend was
>certain that scalding was a process of heating milk without stiring, I
>was certain it meant heating it to a certain temp rather than heating
>it a certain way.
>
>I tried to find an actual boiling/scalding point of milk and came up
>empty....

In cooking, scalding means heating milk -- unstirred -- to the point where it
starts giving off visible vapors.

-- Larry



 
Date: 01 Feb 2007 18:07:59
From: chardinej
Subject: Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
On Feb 1, 1:56 pm, "Amy F." <amyferra...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:40 am, "chardinej" <chard...@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 4:20 am, "SnizbutsDad" <p...@rockfaith.net> wrote:
>
> > > Just got back from a great holiday in Rome, had loads of great coffee
> > > but I noticed that all the cappuccinos I tried were served quite cool,
> > > certainly to my taste, even at Cafe Greco. The only one I had that was
> > > hot enough was an espresso macchiato served actually in the shot
> > > glass. I like my cappuccinos at about 70 degrees C. Am I drinking my
> > > cappuccinos too hot?
>
> > A Guardian article on the "official cappucinno" as recently pronounced
> > by the Italian National Espresso Institute circulated in the group a
> > while ago:
>
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html
>
> > The "official" temperature of the milk added to the drink is 55=B0C. I
> > personally find this too cool and I prefer to steam to 60-65=B0C. Is the
> > cooler 55=B0C in keeping with the general Italian way of consuming
> > espresso drinks quickly?
>
> > John
>
> I think it has more to do with the fact that above around 60 C milk
> starts to take on a "cooked" flavor, and a little beyond that, it
> starts to taste salty instead of sweet. OP, did you notice when you
> were in Rome that the capps were sweeter than the really hot ones we
> tend get in the states? You could try heating your milk a little less
> at home and see if you notice a difference.

If you can believe these "instruments", my milk thermometer has a red
zone above 65=B0C, which I assumed was the scalding temperature of milk.
I stop heating the milk at about 60=B0C (140=B0F) which allows for a
little overshoot, but not past 65=B0C.
John



 
Date: 01 Feb 2007 09:56:05
From: Amy F.
Subject: Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
On Feb 1, 8:40 am, "chardinej" <chard...@nbnet.nb.ca > wrote:
> On Feb 1, 4:20 am, "SnizbutsDad" <p...@rockfaith.net> wrote:
>
> > Just got back from a great holiday in Rome, had loads of great coffee
> > but I noticed that all the cappuccinos I tried were served quite cool,
> > certainly to my taste, even at Cafe Greco. The only one I had that was
> > hot enough was an espresso macchiato served actually in the shot
> > glass. I like my cappuccinos at about 70 degrees C. Am I drinking my
> > cappuccinos too hot?
>
> A Guardian article on the "official cappucinno" as recently pronounced
> by the Italian National Espresso Institute circulated in the group a
> while ago:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html
>
> The "official" temperature of the milk added to the drink is 55=B0C. I
> personally find this too cool and I prefer to steam to 60-65=B0C. Is the
> cooler 55=B0C in keeping with the general Italian way of consuming
> espresso drinks quickly?
>
> John

I think it has more to do with the fact that above around 60 C milk
starts to take on a "cooked" flavor, and a little beyond that, it
starts to taste salty instead of sweet. OP, did you notice when you
were in Rome that the capps were sweeter than the really hot ones we
tend get in the states? You could try heating your milk a little less
at home and see if you notice a difference.



 
Date: 01 Feb 2007 08:40:56
From: chardinej
Subject: Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
On Feb 1, 4:20 am, "SnizbutsDad" <p...@rockfaith.net > wrote:
> Just got back from a great holiday in Rome, had loads of great coffee
> but I noticed that all the cappuccinos I tried were served quite cool,
> certainly to my taste, even at Cafe Greco. The only one I had that was
> hot enough was an espresso macchiato served actually in the shot
> glass. I like my cappuccinos at about 70 degrees C. Am I drinking my
> cappuccinos too hot?

A Guardian article on the "official cappucinno" as recently pronounced
by the Italian National Espresso Institute circulated in the group a
while ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html

The "official" temperature of the milk added to the drink is 55=B0C. I
personally find this too cool and I prefer to steam to 60-65=B0C. Is the
cooler 55=B0C in keeping with the general Italian way of consuming
espresso drinks quickly?

John



  
Date: 01 Feb 2007 13:36:26
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Cold cappuccinos in Rome
I don't think that cappuccino is a "down the hatch" drink like an espresso,
so that doesn't explain it. Cappuccino is a breakfast drink that you'd sip
along with a cornetto (croissant). This can be fairly quick (breakfast is
the least important meal of the day in Italy) but not as quick as drinking
a shot. In addition to the considerations of taste and custom, also keep in
mind that Rome is rather warm most of the year and a large very hot drink is
not exactly what most people crave when they already feeling quite warm.



"chardinej" <chardine@nbnet.nb.ca > wrote in message
news:1170348056.510913.314590@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 4:20 am, "SnizbutsDad" <p...@rockfaith.net > wrote:
> Just got back from a great holiday in Rome, had loads of great coffee
> but I noticed that all the cappuccinos I tried were served quite cool,
> certainly to my taste, even at Cafe Greco. The only one I had that was
> hot enough was an espresso macchiato served actually in the shot
> glass. I like my cappuccinos at about 70 degrees C. Am I drinking my
> cappuccinos too hot?

A Guardian article on the "official cappucinno" as recently pronounced
by the Italian National Espresso Institute circulated in the group a
while ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html

The "official" temperature of the milk added to the drink is 55C. I
personally find this too cool and I prefer to steam to 60-65C. Is the
cooler 55C in keeping with the general Italian way of consuming
espresso drinks quickly?

John