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Date: 14 Sep 2007 16:03:19
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Well I did it...I hacked a Procon pump into my LaScala Butterfly Lever
machine. Once I took out the tank and the bracket that the tank sat in
and the vibe pump, there was actually quite a bit of room in there.
The motor I had was way too big so I was going to remote mount the
pump but I found a small 1/3HP motor on Chris Coffee that, along with
the pump, slipped right in. Had to drill a couple of holes in the
bottom on the machine's frame to bolt the motor in. I used some big
rubber grommets between the frame and motor mount. The relay got
bolted down using one of the threaded holes from the old pump mount. I
spliced into the main power cord so I did not need any additional plug
for the pump. The motor is only 1.2 amps and the cord has 12 gauge
wire so it should be fine. I only needed 2 3/8X1/4 reducers to connect
the two water lines that went to the vibe pump using the "stock"
fittings. The only thing I need to do now is work up a better mount
for the "black box" which used to be attached to the tank frame. Right
now it's just stuck to the inside side panel with some HD double
mounting tape. I also ordered a higher rated timer than the 1200 watt
one I have been using.

Pics here:
http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/pump/

The first pic is right before I put the back panel on. In the second,
that black thing way down at the bottom is the relay.

So far, here's the bottom line. The flow from the PF is much smoother
and more consistent with the rotary pump. It's a lot quieter
too....not "silent" by any means but not that annoying vibe pump
sound. Shots seem better but the coffee I have right now is not the
freshest. I plan to fix that right now! And fun? Well at least more
than the law should allow. Very little blood too...just a couple of
knuckles....

DD





 
Date: 21 Sep 2007 05:19:49
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 19, 3:42 pm, r_h_har...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sep 19, 5:44 am, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
> nipped
>
> > BTW, it does seem to me that you're giving David a bit of a hard time in the
> > thread. I think tinkering with machines is a valuable activity in itself,
> > if for no other reason than because one might accidentally stumble across
> > something useful. Even some of the wierd chimeras that RH has proposed are
> > interesting, regardless of whether they are an obvious waste of time w/r to
> > espresso quality.
>
> > - David R.
>


When I need the definition of a word I generally go to a DICTIONARY.

Webster: " 2 : an illusion or fabrication of the mind; especially : an
unrealizable dream <a fancy, a chimera in my brain, troubles me in my
prayer -- John Donne > "

not the (illustrated) webpedia.

D Ross is correct. and a great use of the word.




 
Date: 21 Sep 2007 05:02:17
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 20, 10:30 pm, "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipT...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> Howdy Robert!
>
> Thank you for clarifying for us the reasons why reading this group has
> become even less fulfilling than cleaning the guestroom toilet. Now that I
> know that I am the cause, I'll simply disappear and you can all go back to
> congratulating each other on how much you get out of participating here.
>
> ken
>
> "Robert Harmon" <R_H_HAR...@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
>
> news:13f6a2i2f6guq8a@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Howdy Ken!
> > Sometimes one has difficulty determining if you're making an observation
> > about the declining participation in this group or stating a wish.
>
> > As a long time Usenet regular I've observed that unmoderated groups
> > typically start off hot as folks find an answer to their needs. At some
> > point groups start to cycle up & down in membership & content. Often it's
> > spammers who kill off groups, but the most frequent cause for their demise
> > is negativism such as you sometimes exhibit. Maybe instead of pointing the
> > finger at others you should be pointing at yourself?
> > --
> > Robert Harmon
> > --
> >http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj- My coffee pages.
>
> >http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87- My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
>
> >http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2- I have things for sale here.
>
> > REPLY TO TEXAS_COFFEE AT THIS ISP EARTHLINK DOT NET
> > "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipT...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:5lgm68F86uf1U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > snipped
>
> >> And sorry, this forum IS dead.
>
> >> ken

AC has been pronounced dead by fox. [oh lawdy!]

If so, why do you continue to post here?

harmon has a great point! (can I be agreeing w/ harmon?)

The negativism, the pomp, the flaming, the OT blather about "X or Y",
the solemnity, the attacks on newbies labeled -- often incorrectly --
as 'trolls', the god-like pronouncements by certain majordomos like
rg, fox, bernie, et al.

these are just some of the reasons AC is less active.

Who are YOU to make such a pronouncement, fox? (that is a rhetorical
question)

dave

www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 21 Sep 2007 01:09:54
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 20, 2:22 pm, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I don't know how some people can get up in the morning, look in the mirror,
> and not decide to kill themselves.

another nugget from a some 'ol drunk in idaho.



 
Date: 20 Sep 2007 18:07:06
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 20, 1:32 pm, "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG..

Guaranteed to elicit a response from the moreceau

Say foxy, why not try to tone down the pomp and meanness on the new
people??

Some actually take you seriously.




  
Date: 20 Sep 2007 12:22:44
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
I don't know how some people can get up in the morning, look in the mirror,
and not decide to kill themselves.




 
Date: 20 Sep 2007 17:02:18
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
t.
> foxy:
> > A number of former, highly regarded, posters here have told me they don't
> > even read this board anymore.
>
> > And to the OP, it seems as if all you wanted was positive "gee-whiz" type
> > reactions to your posts. In that vein, I'll strive to do only that on your
> > threads in the future.
>
> > ken
>
> This board seems to be 24/7 entertainment space for a maffia of
> retired commercial interests who:
>
> 1. Always have to sell worthless things,
>
> 2. Know only what they have learned here (citation of another poster),
>
> 3. Absolutely hate any science,
>
> 4. Promptly spew personal attacks.
>
> They know who they are (6 or 7).
>
> Only newbees would consider an approach to it's premises.
>
> David

!!!!!!


You nailed it, David -- and the number one "mafioso" is Fox.
(moreceaudemerde)

underneath that thin veneer of 'learned' discourse is a truly hostile
man (or woman) who really enjoys attacking. But he must do it here
-- as that stuff is not permitted in the moderated groups.

The "highly regarded" posters he speaks of? they are / were a lot
like him. They wanted to claim ownership of this group and become the
arbiters of taste, fact and overall tone.

but fox hangs on -- so he can vent his insults and sarcasm, on sincere
people. he has to have an outlet.

he thought I would go away if he insulted me enough. did not work.
can't ever reprint all the names he called me.

And BTW, I am not retired. I am VERY busy modding great espresso
machines, every day.
over a dozen / month.

Dave

www.hitechespresso.com




  
Date: 20 Sep 2007 18:29:33
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:02:18 -0000, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com >
wrote:

>And BTW, I am not retired. I am VERY busy modding great espresso
>machines, every day.
>over a dozen / month.

Geez Dave, now I understand your hostility, you're barely scraping by.
Buck up old boy, surely someone in here will hit upon another idea
that you can capitalize on, enabling you to pretend to be expert on
that subject too!



  
Date: 20 Sep 2007 11:32:40
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
It has been rare in my experience to encounter someone such as yourself, for
which I thank whatever deity that may exist.




 
Date: 19 Sep 2007 17:47:30
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
>Did you install an RO system for your machine? If so
>do you recommend any specifics?

I had installed an RO system quite a while back because the tap water
(or what the locals refer to as "sink water") here tastes like crap
and is loaded with minerals. So it was pretty easy to tap into that
for the machine. I got a pretty good deal on a system at my local
hardware store. I don't know that much about the systems but mine is
by Watts Premiere which is one of the more common home system mfgrs. I
know there is some debate about using RO water for espresso machines
but like I sain, the tap water here is undrinkable.
DD

PS To Ken: No I did not expect a bunch of "gee wiz" replies. But I
didn't expect to get a bunch of "raspberries" either.... Like I said,
this was more for the fun of it than anything else.



 
Date: 19 Sep 2007 13:23:56
From:
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On 19 Eyl=FCl, 22:51, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Danny" <da...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5ldb56F7l7t0U2@mid.individual.net...
>
> > D. Ross wrote:
>
> >> Ken, while the traffic in this newsgroup is way down, there's really n=
ot
> >> all
> >> that much of earthshaking interest going on in the other forums either,
> >> at
> >> least the three I peek in on regularly.
>
> The unfortunate fact is that whatever traffic this site gets, it is
> "content-challenged." I cannot think of a single useful new thread I have
> read on this site in quite some time. If one glances even for a moment a=
t a
> site such as home-barista.com, one finds novel and interesting information
> posted nearly every week. Off the top of my head, I can think of the
> following informative and useful threads and articles on HB that have
> occurred in the last few months:
>
> (1) various pressure modifying/flow rate observations made and shown in
> graph and tabular form.
>
> (2) In depth discussion of dosing and its effects on shot quality, taste,
> and consistency;
>
> (3) A randomized trial on freezing coffee and its effects compared with
> fresh;
>
> (4) A lengthy and continuing examination of many different grinders
> including the larger connical ones
>
> (5) Various technical posts dealing with the impact of boiler fill level =
on
> shot temperature consistency
>
> (6) The impact of ambient room temperature on shot temperature consistency
>
> (7) innumerable posts on extraction ratios, tastes, etc. as effected by
> dosing.
>
> and many more. Some of this stuff used to get posted here, but not anymo=
re.
>
> Sure, a lot of the uninteresting and mundane stuff one used to find here,
> e.g. "I just ordered a Silvia and I'm so excited" has migrated over there=
as
> well, but the audience is going to follow the content.
>
> A number of former, highly regarded, posters here have told me they don't
> even read this board anymore.
>
> And to the OP, it seems as if all you wanted was positive "gee-whiz" type
> reactions to your posts. In that vein, I'll strive to do only that on your
> threads in the future.
>
> ken

This board seems to be 24/7 entertainment space for a maffia of
retired commercial interests who:

1=2E Always have to sell worthless things,

2=2E Know only what they have learned here (citation of another poster),

3=2E Absolutely hate any science,

4=2E Promptly spew personal attacks.

They know who they are (6 or 7).

Only newbees would consider an approach to it's premises.

David



 
Date: 19 Sep 2007 12:42:45
From:
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 19, 5:44 am, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
nipped

> BTW, it does seem to me that you're giving David a bit of a hard time in the
> thread. I think tinkering with machines is a valuable activity in itself,
> if for no other reason than because one might accidentally stumble across
> something useful. Even some of the wierd chimeras that RH has proposed are
> interesting, regardless of whether they are an obvious waste of time w/r to
> espresso quality.
>
> - David R.

Hmmm... chimerism as in: http://tinyurl.com/6oaql. Have I just been
libeled? And they aint weird, they be fun! {;-)

I be keepin' on keepin' on.



 
Date: 19 Sep 2007 09:39:47
From: JoeP
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 15, 8:20 pm, David De Cristoforo <da...@daviddecristoforo.com >
wrote:
> > You need to edit your directory for the pictures. You currently have
> > personal files accessable in the parent directory.>
>
> Thanx for the heads up on this Joe. I totally forgot to delete those
> files.
> DD

No Problem Dave,

I think your mod is cool. My freind has the La Spaz S1 which has a
rotary and I have long been jealous of its quite operation and
predictable water flow. Just two days ago I found someone selling a
commercial 1 group Elektra with electronic shot timing and I picked it
up for $180. I can't believe the deal I got, now I have to setup the
water plumbing and drain situation, the plumbing is no problem since I
will just install a "T" fitting for my refrigerator water line, the
drain is a concern however so I am looking for a solution, is it
possible just to run a hose to a tupperware bowl? Currently my Elektra
is over at Jim Dukes for service, I am having him go through the whole
machine and professionally descale it and replace any seal/ electrical
connectors etc... I wasn't specifically looking for a machine but I
couldn't pass that deal up, now I have to sell my Bezzera's I have a
BZ99 and a BZ02. Did you install an RO system for your machine? If so
do you recommend any specifics? I would like something that doesn't
take much room.

I was a KC-10a Flying Crew chief in the USAF, nice to see another
former Airman on the board.
Don't let anyone here poo poo your mod and chase you away, this place
is very diverse and someone will find inspiration from your post I'm
sure.

Joe
www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com
"where freinds get together and split bags of coffee"




 
Date: 16 Sep 2007 09:15:16
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
> Modifications need to be viewed from more than the standpoint of whether or
> not they are "cool" or "interesting," but also must be evaluated as to
> whether they are useful or beneficial. Your modification almost certainly
> reduces the noise level and aggravation that your machine gave you before,
> so from that viewpoint it was well worth doing. But shot quality is also
> important and I would say that it is the most important factor in
> determining whether a mod is "worth doing."

Well would that not depend on one's goals? If I had stated that my
objective was to improve shot quality by altering the method by which
water is pumped through the coffee, that would be one thing. But I
would not agree that something is not "useful or beneficial" or "worth
doing" because it does not address the primary goal (better espresso).
It's like saying there is no benefit in putting a more comfortable
seat in a race car because it does not make it go any faster.

As to "overdosing" all I can say is this is America and the prevailing
attitude in America is "more is better". I don't measure or weigh my
ground coffee but I never fill my PF more than to just below the clip
ring after tamping because I discovered long ago that doing so
produces very "heavy" espresso that is not to my liking. My son, on
the other hand packs as much coffee into his PF as he can and still be
able to get it onto the brew head. Then he "pulls" an 8oz "shot"! But
he is not after taste or quality, he's after the maximum caffeine
dose....yecch....

DD (still here????)



  
Date: 19 Sep 2007 10:44:11
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
There are way too many "quoted phrases" in this thread. Every time I "read
one", I mentally "mime" the quote marks with my "virtual fingers", which are
now "cramping up".

Ken, while the traffic in this newsgroup is way down, there's really not all
that much of earthshaking interest going on in the other forums either, at
least the three I peek in on regularly. I'm not sure what that signifies
vis-a-vis the state of home coffee production, but I'm inclined to think
that it is a good sign.

BTW, it does seem to me that you're giving David a bit of a hard time in the
thread. I think tinkering with machines is a valuable activity in itself,
if for no other reason than because one might accidentally stumble across
something useful. Even some of the wierd chimeras that RH has proposed are
interesting, regardless of whether they are an obvious waste of time w/r to
espresso quality.

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net


   
Date: 19 Sep 2007 20:21:32
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
D. Ross wrote:
> There are way too many "quoted phrases" in this thread. Every time I "read
> one", I mentally "mime" the quote marks with my "virtual fingers", which are
> now "cramping up".
>
> Ken, while the traffic in this newsgroup is way down, there's really not all
> that much of earthshaking interest going on in the other forums either, at
> least the three I peek in on regularly. I'm not sure what that signifies
> vis-a-vis the state of home coffee production, but I'm inclined to think
> that it is a good sign.
>
> BTW, it does seem to me that you're giving David a bit of a hard time in the
> thread. I think tinkering with machines is a valuable activity in itself,
> if for no other reason than because one might accidentally stumble across
> something useful. Even some of the wierd chimeras that RH has proposed are
> interesting, regardless of whether they are an obvious waste of time w/r to
> espresso quality.
>
> - David R.
> --
> Less information than you ever thought possible:
> http://www.demitasse.net

What he said, and kudos to the OP for some quality tinkering - nothing
wrong with that :)

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



    
Date: 19 Sep 2007 13:51:32
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5ldb56F7l7t0U2@mid.individual.net...
> D. Ross wrote:
>>>>
>> Ken, while the traffic in this newsgroup is way down, there's really not
>> all
>> that much of earthshaking interest going on in the other forums either,
>> at
>> least the three I peek in on regularly.

The unfortunate fact is that whatever traffic this site gets, it is
"content-challenged." I cannot think of a single useful new thread I have
read on this site in quite some time. If one glances even for a moment at a
site such as home-barista.com, one finds novel and interesting information
posted nearly every week. Off the top of my head, I can think of the
following informative and useful threads and articles on HB that have
occurred in the last few months:

(1) various pressure modifying/flow rate observations made and shown in
graph and tabular form.

(2) In depth discussion of dosing and its effects on shot quality, taste,
and consistency;

(3) A randomized trial on freezing coffee and its effects compared with
fresh;

(4) A lengthy and continuing examination of many different grinders
including the larger connical ones

(5) Various technical posts dealing with the impact of boiler fill level on
shot temperature consistency

(6) The impact of ambient room temperature on shot temperature consistency

(7) innumerable posts on extraction ratios, tastes, etc. as effected by
dosing.

and many more. Some of this stuff used to get posted here, but not anymore.

Sure, a lot of the uninteresting and mundane stuff one used to find here,
e.g. "I just ordered a Silvia and I'm so excited" has migrated over there as
well, but the audience is going to follow the content.

A number of former, highly regarded, posters here have told me they don't
even read this board anymore.

And to the OP, it seems as if all you wanted was positive "gee-whiz" type
reactions to your posts. In that vein, I'll strive to do only that on your
threads in the future.

ken




     
Date: 21 Sep 2007 22:18:40
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Ken Fox wrote:

> The unfortunate fact is that whatever traffic this site gets, it is
> "content-challenged." I cannot think of a single useful new thread I have
> read on this site in quite some time. If one glances even for a moment at a
> site such as home-barista.com, one finds novel and interesting information
> posted nearly every week. Off the top of my head, I can think of the
> following informative and useful threads and articles on HB that have
> occurred in the last few months:
>
> (1) various pressure modifying/flow rate observations made and shown in
> graph and tabular form.
>
> (2) In depth discussion of dosing and its effects on shot quality, taste,
> and consistency;
>
> (3) A randomized trial on freezing coffee and its effects compared with
> fresh;
>
> (4) A lengthy and continuing examination of many different grinders
> including the larger connical ones
>
> (5) Various technical posts dealing with the impact of boiler fill level on
> shot temperature consistency
>
> (6) The impact of ambient room temperature on shot temperature consistency
>
> (7) innumerable posts on extraction ratios, tastes, etc. as effected by
> dosing.
>
> and many more. Some of this stuff used to get posted here, but not anymore.
>
> Sure, a lot of the uninteresting and mundane stuff one used to find here,
> e.g. "I just ordered a Silvia and I'm so excited" has migrated over there as
> well, but the audience is going to follow the content.
>
> A number of former, highly regarded, posters here have told me they don't
> even read this board anymore.
>
> And to the OP, it seems as if all you wanted was positive "gee-whiz" type
> reactions to your posts. In that vein, I'll strive to do only that on your
> threads in the future.
>
> ken
>
>

Your views here, and in other posts, where you pronounce alt.coffee to
be "dead" do no-one any good. If you dislike it so much just leave.
I myself don't look in here much these days either (and I don't follow
any coffee-related web forums either, since I dislike the format), but
I don't pop in and just say how bad it is. Either contribute or
dissapear into the web forums you seem so fond of, since I don't
understand why you are actually posting here at all if you dislike it
so much. IIRC your last posts when a regular here were just as
esoteric as the OP's post in this thread, so why belittle him?


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



      
Date: 21 Sep 2007 17:37:02
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5liqoqF8gaf4U1@mid.individual.net...
> Ken Fox wrote:
>
>> The unfortunate fact is that whatever traffic this site gets, it is
>> "content-challenged." I cannot think of a single useful new thread I have
>> read on this site in quite some time. If one glances even for a moment
>> at a site such as home-barista.com, one finds novel and interesting
>> information posted nearly every week. Off the top of my head, I can
>> think of the following informative and useful threads and articles on HB
>> that have occurred in the last few months:
>>
>> (1) various pressure modifying/flow rate observations made and shown in
>> graph and tabular form.
>>
>> (2) In depth discussion of dosing and its effects on shot quality, taste,
>> and consistency;
>>
>> (3) A randomized trial on freezing coffee and its effects compared with
>> fresh;
>>
>> (4) A lengthy and continuing examination of many different grinders
>> including the larger connical ones
>>
>> (5) Various technical posts dealing with the impact of boiler fill level
>> on shot temperature consistency
>>
>> (6) The impact of ambient room temperature on shot temperature
>> consistency
>>
>> (7) innumerable posts on extraction ratios, tastes, etc. as effected by
>> dosing.
>>
>> and many more. Some of this stuff used to get posted here, but not
>> anymore.
>>
>> Sure, a lot of the uninteresting and mundane stuff one used to find here,
>> e.g. "I just ordered a Silvia and I'm so excited" has migrated over there
>> as well, but the audience is going to follow the content.
>>
>> A number of former, highly regarded, posters here have told me they don't
>> even read this board anymore.
>>
>> And to the OP, it seems as if all you wanted was positive "gee-whiz" type
>> reactions to your posts. In that vein, I'll strive to do only that on
>> your threads in the future.
>>
>> ken
>>
>>
>
> Your views here, and in other posts, where you pronounce alt.coffee to be
> "dead" do no-one any good. If you dislike it so much just leave. I myself
> don't look in here much these days either (and I don't follow any
> coffee-related web forums either, since I dislike the format), but I don't
> pop in and just say how bad it is. Either contribute or dissapear into
> the web forums you seem so fond of, since I don't understand why you are
> actually posting here at all if you dislike it so much. IIRC your last
> posts when a regular here were just as esoteric as the OP's post in this
> thread, so why belittle him?
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>

Just to stroke his own ego?.. I just deleted 3 paragraphs of some thoughts I
put in an email to someone about this from over on HB (& CG too).. Don't
want to start a flame war or stir the shit pot.. so I'll just let sleepin'
dogs lie.. lol
Craig.



     
Date: 20 Sep 2007 18:27:29
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux


      
Date: 20 Sep 2007 19:48:07
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:46f2b6bf.963415@localhost...
>
> [snip]
>
> I saw most of those. Some were interesting, but nothing earth-shattering,
> arguably no more so than what David did.

we'll have to severely disagree on that.


>>At least two of the items you
> mentioned were, to me, disappointments - I won't mention which ones, since
> I
> otherwise admire the authors.

I think that is very kind of you, David.

As someone who has put a lot of time and effort into some work I've done, I
would very much prefer to have my ideas challenged than merely seeming to
have been accepted but not. That way, everyone learns something. I would
suspect that these other people (who might have disappointed you) feel the
same.

You have a considerable knowledge base in coffee given your years (shall we
say decades) involved in it. You're not obligated to contribute anything
original, but if you simply read the material, have reservations, but then
make no further effort, then everyone loses.
>
> It is certainly true that every time someone like Barry or Alan or Jim
> posts
> on one of the other forums, that is a post that 2 years ago would have
> been
> here, but notably all three also still post here. People are free to post
> what they want where they want. I'm not sure I see the point of
> repeatedly
> posting here about how much better one thinks the other forums are, and
> that
> this forum is dead.

it isn't the fact that X Y or Z still posts here, it is WHAT they post here.
And what they post here is essentially nothing of substance. That stuff
goes elsewhere. If you ask X Y or Z (not referring to any one person but a
composite of people who used to post serious material here) why they no
longer post worthwhile stuff here (or any stuff in some cases), they will
tell you that when they do, they get no responses indicating that their
posts are seriously read here by any or certainly many, people. They gave
up. So did I.

And sorry, this forum IS dead.

ken




       
Date: 21 Sep 2007 10:28:02
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux


       
Date: 20 Sep 2007 21:12:10
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Howdy Ken!
Sometimes one has difficulty determining if you're making an observation
about the declining participation in this group or stating a wish.

As a long time Usenet regular I've observed that unmoderated groups
typically start off hot as folks find an answer to their needs. At some
point groups start to cycle up & down in membership & content. Often it's
spammers who kill off groups, but the most frequent cause for their demise
is negativism such as you sometimes exhibit. Maybe instead of pointing the
finger at others you should be pointing at yourself?
--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

REPLY TO TEXAS_COFFEE AT THIS ISP EARTHLINK DOT NET
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5lgm68F86uf1U1@mid.individual.net...

snipped

>
> And sorry, this forum IS dead.
>
> ken
>
>




        
Date: 20 Sep 2007 20:30:20
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Howdy Robert!

Thank you for clarifying for us the reasons why reading this group has
become even less fulfilling than cleaning the guestroom toilet. Now that I
know that I am the cause, I'll simply disappear and you can all go back to
congratulating each other on how much you get out of participating here.

ken


"Robert Harmon" <R_H_HARMON@YAHOO.COM > wrote in message
news:13f6a2i2f6guq8a@corp.supernews.com...
> Howdy Ken!
> Sometimes one has difficulty determining if you're making an observation
> about the declining participation in this group or stating a wish.
>
> As a long time Usenet regular I've observed that unmoderated groups
> typically start off hot as folks find an answer to their needs. At some
> point groups start to cycle up & down in membership & content. Often it's
> spammers who kill off groups, but the most frequent cause for their demise
> is negativism such as you sometimes exhibit. Maybe instead of pointing the
> finger at others you should be pointing at yourself?
> --
> Robert Harmon
> --
> http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
>
> http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
>
> http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.
>
> REPLY TO TEXAS_COFFEE AT THIS ISP EARTHLINK DOT NET
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5lgm68F86uf1U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> snipped
>
>>
>> And sorry, this forum IS dead.
>>
>> ken
>>
>>
>
>




 
Date: 16 Sep 2007 15:56:59
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
> " . . . . can come away
> thinking that they are keeping up to date by reading the posts on this site,
> however they are very much mistaken.
>
> ken

Well, we all appreciate YOU keeping us up-to-date, foxy!

I'd hate to be "very much mistaken."

dave

910 616 0980

www.hitechespresso.com



  
Date: 16 Sep 2007 10:08:48
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
one of the nicest things about web forums is that it is possible to
eliminate disruptive elements.




 
Date: 16 Sep 2007 08:40:04
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Way to go! I retrofitted my E-61 with a rotary triple-diaphram pump and liked
the result. Not only is it quieter, but the coffee tastes better, too. Dan
http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/isomac_millenium_pump_retrofit.htm

"David De Cristoforo" <david@daviddecristoforo.com > wrote in message
news:1189810999.139790.26250@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Well I did it...I hacked a Procon pump into my LaScala Butterfly Lever
> machine. Once I took out the tank and the bracket that the tank sat in
> and the vibe pump, there was actually quite a bit of room in there.
> The motor I had was way too big so I was going to remote mount the
> pump but I found a small 1/3HP motor on Chris Coffee that, along with
> the pump, slipped right in. Had to drill a couple of holes in the
> bottom on the machine's frame to bolt the motor in. I used some big
> rubber grommets between the frame and motor mount. The relay got
> bolted down using one of the threaded holes from the old pump mount. I
> spliced into the main power cord so I did not need any additional plug
> for the pump. The motor is only 1.2 amps and the cord has 12 gauge
> wire so it should be fine. I only needed 2 3/8X1/4 reducers to connect
> the two water lines that went to the vibe pump using the "stock"
> fittings. The only thing I need to do now is work up a better mount
> for the "black box" which used to be attached to the tank frame. Right
> now it's just stuck to the inside side panel with some HD double
> mounting tape. I also ordered a higher rated timer than the 1200 watt
> one I have been using.
>
> Pics here:
> http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/pump/
>
> The first pic is right before I put the back panel on. In the second,
> that black thing way down at the bottom is the relay.
>
> So far, here's the bottom line. The flow from the PF is much smoother
> and more consistent with the rotary pump. It's a lot quieter
> too....not "silent" by any means but not that annoying vibe pump
> sound. Shots seem better but the coffee I have right now is not the
> freshest. I plan to fix that right now! And fun? Well at least more
> than the law should allow. Very little blood too...just a couple of
> knuckles....
>
> DD
>



 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 20:36:37
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
> It is good that you posted your experiences with this mod, as others will
> search for this sort of thing from time to time and finding that someone
> else has done it successfully is useful information. However, and it is a
> big "however," this sort of mod should not be done by someone who doesn't
> understand the complexity, and it should not be done wth the expectation of
> improving shot quality. That is all that I wanted to convey, and I think it
> balances somewhat the benefits that another person might expect to get were
> they to do what you did.

I understand what you are saying but I never even mentioned "shot
quality" as a reason for wanting to do the conversion. And I did not
rewire the machine. I just ran the power leads from the vibe pump to a
relay that switches on the bigger pump motor. As far as the "brain
box" "knows", there is no dif in the circuitry so jumping the contacts
as suggested by Alan should not be required unless there is another
reason which is why I asked. While I am not an expert in the area of
espresso machines, I have, for going on 30 years now, wired, rewired,
repaired and maintained all of my shop equipment, some of which has
much more complex electrics than an espresso machine. Also, I was an
electrical power production specialist when I was in the USAF so I
have a pretty solid background. I did not undertake this "mod" without
some confidence that I could do a proper job of it. And I never
suggested that anyone else do this to their own machines. I just
thought that everyone would get a "kick" out of it.
DD



  
Date: 15 Sep 2007 22:51:32
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
"David De Cristoforo" <david@daviddecristoforo.com > wrote in message
news:1189913797.885506.169920@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I understand what you are saying but I never even mentioned "shot
> quality" as a reason for wanting to do the conversion. And I did not
> rewire the machine. I just ran the power leads from the vibe pump to a
> relay that switches on the bigger pump motor. As far as the "brain
> box" "knows", there is no dif in the circuitry so jumping the contacts
> as suggested by Alan should not be required unless there is another
> reason which is why I asked. While I am not an expert in the area of
> espresso machines, I have, for going on 30 years now, wired, rewired,
> repaired and maintained all of my shop equipment, some of which has
> much more complex electrics than an espresso machine. Also, I was an
> electrical power production specialist when I was in the USAF so I
> have a pretty solid background. I did not undertake this "mod" without
> some confidence that I could do a proper job of it. And I never
> suggested that anyone else do this to their own machines. I just
> thought that everyone would get a "kick" out of it.
> DD
>

I think it is cool that you did this. I wanted to do this on my own vibe
machine for a long time before I decided not to do it, going so far as to
discuss it with a number of people who supply espresso machine parts, and
service people who know more about this stuff than I do.

I have not shied away from modding my own equipment, and to date I have
PID'd both espresso machines and produced pre-infusion in my rotary machine
by installing a rotary pump delay timer and input water pressure regulator.
The latter modification was done after I noticed that the rotary machine was
much less "forgiving" when it came to shotmaking, and I was producing many
more "sink" shots on it than on the old vibe.

Modifications need to be viewed from more than the standpoint of whether or
not they are "cool" or "interesting," but also must be evaluated as to
whether they are useful or beneficial. Your modification almost certainly
reduces the noise level and aggravation that your machine gave you before,
so from that viewpoint it was well worth doing. But shot quality is also
important and I would say that it is the most important factor in
determining whether a mod is "worth do´ng."

From that viewpoint, one also needs to continually evaluate what one has
done in the light of new information. In this light, I question whether the
delay timer mod I did was worth the effort in light of changes I have
recently made in my own technique of pulling espresso shots. Cutting to the
chase, I have been evaluating whether or not the N. American practice of
"overdosing" or "updosing" PF baskets makes sense. I have concluded that it
does NOT, and now use ~14 of coffee to make my double shots instead of the
18-20g I used to use. When one uses 14g (or shall we say ~12-15g), as the
Italians do, one does not get channeling and one does not need to do all the
fancy and some might say ridiculous things that have been proposed by the
"3rd Wave Espresso Industry" that was heavily influenced by Mr. David
Schomer. The resulting shots are (in my opinion and that of many others)
both better tasting and better balanced, and lose that in-your-face
soccerpunch that one is used to putting up with in straight shots in these
parts. In addition, the shots becoming consistent and repeatable, almost to
the point of boredom.

In the light of this experience, I have not scientifically studied my prior
preinfusion mod, but my best guess is that it has become unneeded with my
change towards Italian-ish dosing practices.

Like most of what is interesting in espresso these days, discussions about
dosing and other important topics are occuring elsewhere, not on a.c., so
those who don't read other sites such as home-barista.com can come away
thinking that they are keeping up to date by reading the posts on this site,
however they are very much mistaken.

ken




   
Date: 16 Sep 2007 11:19:16
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Does / taste Was: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
In article <5l3r0lF672fiU1@mid.individual.net >,
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Cutting to the
> chase, I have been evaluating whether or not the N. American practice of
> "overdosing" or "updosing" PF baskets makes sense. I have concluded that it
> does NOT, and now use ~14 of coffee to make my double shots instead of the
> 18-20g I used to use. When one uses 14g (or shall we say ~12-15g), as the
> Italians do, one does not get channeling and one does not need to do all the
> fancy and some might say ridiculous things that have been proposed by the
> "3rd Wave Espresso Industry" that was heavily influenced by Mr. David
> Schomer.
I'm one of those mildly obsessed people who weighs each shot in an
effort to get consistent shoots. Long ago, I found 16 gm just
filled my Rancilio double basket without swelling to leave an
impression on the puck - so that's what I used.

A while ago (for a reason now forgotten) I tried grinding a little
finer with a 15 gm shot.
> The resulting shots are (in my opinion and that of many others)
> both better tasting and better balanced, and lose that in-your-face
> soccerpunch that one is used to putting up with in straight shots in these
> parts. In addition, the shots becoming consistent and repeatable, almost to
> the point of boredom.
And that has become my standard. I've been meaning to post stating
that the 15 gm shots (same volume and time as the old 16 gm) are
consistently sweeter and more balanced and asking for comment. Now
I offer it as support for Ken.
n
p.s. Oddly, I agree with the 'point of boredom" bit. Some days I
almost miss the, "Wonder what THIS one will taste like" element.

--
M for N in address to mail reply


 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 20:20:40
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
> You need to edit your directory for the pictures. You currently have
> personal files accessable in the parent directory.>

Thanx for the heads up on this Joe. I totally forgot to delete those
files.
DD




 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 14:14:19
From: JoeP
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 14, 4:03 pm, David De Cristoforo <da...@daviddecristoforo.com >
wrote:
> Well I did it...I hacked a Procon pump into my LaScala Butterfly Lever
> machine. Once I took out the tank and the bracket that the tank sat in
> and the vibe pump, there was actually quite a bit of room in there.
> The motor I had was way too big so I was going to remote mount the
> pump but I found a small 1/3HP motor on Chris Coffee that, along with
> the pump, slipped right in. Had to drill a couple of holes in the
> bottom on the machine's frame to bolt the motor in. I used some big
> rubber grommets between the frame and motor mount. The relay got
> bolted down using one of the threaded holes from the old pump mount. I
> spliced into the main power cord so I did not need any additional plug
> for the pump. The motor is only 1.2 amps and the cord has 12 gauge
> wire so it should be fine. I only needed 2 3/8X1/4 reducers to connect
> the two water lines that went to the vibe pump using the "stock"
> fittings. The only thing I need to do now is work up a better mount
> for the "black box" which used to be attached to the tank frame. Right
> now it's just stuck to the inside side panel with some HD double
> mounting tape. I also ordered a higher rated timer than the 1200 watt
> one I have been using.
>
> Pics here:http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/pump/
>
> The first pic is right before I put the back panel on. In the second,
> that black thing way down at the bottom is the relay.
>
> So far, here's the bottom line. The flow from the PF is much smoother
> and more consistent with the rotary pump. It's a lot quieter
> too....not "silent" by any means but not that annoying vibe pump
> sound. Shots seem better but the coffee I have right now is not the
> freshest. I plan to fix that right now! And fun? Well at least more
> than the law should allow. Very little blood too...just a couple of
> knuckles....
>
> DD

You need to edit your directory for the pictures. You currently have
personal files accessable in the parent directory. I hope you haven't
left before you read this.

Joe
www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com
"where freinds get together and split bags of coffee"



 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 11:44:34
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 15, 11:31 am, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> perhaps Alan was trying to help you avoid damaging your brainbox. He is
> familiar with this machine and has written about the two versions of them
> before on his website. I believe he sells them.
>
> ken

Obviously. I looked at Alan's site and he not only sells them but
knows quite a bit about them. I'm not trying to argue with him. I was
just asking why. I gotta tell you that I'm out of here. The people on
this board are way too touchy for me.

Bye...
DD




  
Date: 21 Sep 2007 01:25:18
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 20, 2:29 pm, Steve <n...@use.net > wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:02:18 -0000, lockjaw <davebo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >And BTW, I am not retired. I am VERY busy modding great espresso
> >machines, every day.
> >over a dozen / month.
>
> Geez Dave, now I understand your hostility, you're barely scraping by.
> Buck up old boy, surely someone in here will hit upon another idea
> that you can capitalize on, enabling you to pretend to be expert on
> that subject too!

more brilliance from the virtual cretin, "Steve"

"A Person that is: brainless, stupid, child-like, and full of
pointless information that makes no sense and appeals only to other
cretins. They can be found in abundance in every single populated
internet forum, where they race to post as many mind-numbing messages
as possible in a single session. In addition, they seemingly
interbreed with other cretins, ensuring that their cretinous genes
continue long after they end up dead meaning the Internet will never
be rid of their kind. More's the pity. "




  
Date: 15 Sep 2007 13:21:20
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
"David De Cristoforo" <david@daviddecristoforo.com > wrote in message
news:1189881874.953763.26270@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 15, 11:31 am, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> perhaps Alan was trying to help you avoid damaging your brainbox. He is
>> familiar with this machine and has written about the two versions of them
>> before on his website. I believe he sells them.
>>
>> ken
>
> Obviously. I looked at Alan's site and he not only sells them but
> knows quite a bit about them. I'm not trying to argue with him. I was
> just asking why. I gotta tell you that I'm out of here. The people on
> this board are way too touchy for me.
>
> Bye...
> DD
>
>

Far be it from me to defend this usenet "board," which most no longer find
very useful.

It is good that you posted your experiences with this mod, as others will
search for this sort of thing from time to time and finding that someone
else has done it successfully is useful information. However, and it is a
big "however," this sort of mod should not be done by someone who doesn't
understand the complexity, and it should not be done wth the expectation of
improving shot quality. That is all that I wanted to convey, and I think it
balances somewhat the benefits that another person might expect to get were
they to do what you did.

ken




 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 09:28:18
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 15, 2:40 am, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
<alanf...@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:
> if your Butterfly has a recent Gicar brainbox, then you need to remove the
> strip of black tape on the top and "jumper" the 2 prongs (looks like a
> standard jumper pin to me.) Of course, this presupposes you are using the
> correct wiring for a rotary pump.

And the reason for this would be.....?

Thanx
DD



  
Date: 15 Sep 2007 12:31:18
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
"David De Cristoforo" <david@daviddecristoforo.com > wrote in message
news:1189873698.470549.309920@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 15, 2:40 am, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
> <alanf...@coffeeco.com.au> wrote:
>> if your Butterfly has a recent Gicar brainbox, then you need to remove
>> the
>> strip of black tape on the top and "jumper" the 2 prongs (looks like a
>> standard jumper pin to me.) Of course, this presupposes you are using the
>> correct wiring for a rotary pump.
>
> And the reason for this would be.....?
>
> Thanx
> DD
>

perhaps Alan was trying to help you avoid damaging your brainbox. He is
familiar with this machine and has written about the two versions of them
before on his website. I believe he sells them.

ken




 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 13:39:23
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
On Sep 14, 10:05 pm, David De Cristoforo <da...@daviddecristoforo.com >
wrote:
> Whatta bunch of killjoys.....sheech! Next time I post here I'll try to
> make sure it's about a "PID"....

Now, now I did say -- enjoy!

no?

dave



 
Date: 14 Sep 2007 19:05:57
From: David De Cristoforo
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Whatta bunch of killjoys.....sheech! Next time I post here I'll try to
make sure it's about a "PID"....





  
Date: 15 Sep 2007 09:40:57
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
Without getting too carried away with Ken's enthusiasm, I have to agree with
him that as far as the Butterfly/Eroica is concerned, pump type makes no
difference to the end result in the cup. However, I can offer one tip: if
your Butterfly has a recent Gicar brainbox, then you need to remove the
strip of black tape on the top and "jumper" the 2 prongs (looks like a
standard jumper pin to me.) Of course, this presupposes you are using the
correct wiring for a rotary pump.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




 
Date: 15 Sep 2007 00:33:36
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux

> DD

Good effort, but you KNOW about the pump.

so, shall we say you are biased.

like high end stereophiles:
"Geez, these new 100 % silver cables for $1,000 a 3 foot pair DO
sound much better!"

but -- enjoy!

Dave

www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 14 Sep 2007 18:13:48
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Convert vibe to Rotary? Redux
"David De Cristoforo" <david@daviddecristoforo.com > wrote in message
news:1189810999.139790.26250@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Well I did it...I hacked a Procon pump into my LaScala Butterfly Lever
> machine. >
> So far, here's the bottom line. The flow from the PF is much smoother
> and more consistent with the rotary pump. It's a lot quieter
> too....not "silent" by any means but not that annoying vibe pump
> sound. Shots seem better but the coffee I have right now is not the
> freshest. I plan to fix that right now! And fun? Well at least more
> than the law should allow. Very little blood too...just a couple of
> knuckles....
>
> DD
>

First, congratulations on your mods; it always feels good to succeed when
one hacks a machine. No doubt your machine is quieter than before.

As to smoothness of flow, I don't know what you mean, but with a properly
adjusted over pressure valve (OPV) in a vibe pump driven system, there
should be no significant difference in flow vs. a rotary except that a
rotary lacking preinfusion would likely ramp up almost immediately to the
preset pressure, whereas a vibe will have a slower ramp up. There are
those, including myself, who consider the slower vibe pump ramp up to be
"better" than an "instant on" 9 bar as found in some rotary pump driven
machines. This will be most apparent for those who "overdose" or "updose"
their PF baskets with more than 15g of coffee. The lack of preinfusion
(which comes automatically to some extent with a vibe pump) will often
result in channeling, especially in updosed baskets.

As to taste, I would be amazed to find that there was any improvement
whatsoever from this conversion. I have personally conducted three
randomized, controlled, simultaneous blind tasting trials over 3 years using
my two Cimbali Juniors, one a vibe and one a rotary. More than a hundred
paired shots have been presented simultaneously from these machines to
myself and at least 3 other tasters, and there has been no consistently
detected difference in taste. The taste between machines is so similar that
when Jim Schulman comes to visit and we informally test an idea, we go back
and forth between the machines, pulling paired shots that differ by one
factor (such as coffee or dose used), one in the vibe and one in the rotary,
and give nary a thought as to which machine produced which shot.

I seriously considered converting my vibe machine to a rotary pump some time
ago, but have been convinced that there would be no improvement in taste.
Rotary pump driven systems are considerably more complex and I personally
would not recommend performing such a conversion. If the idea is to
eliminate the noise from the vibe pump, I would suggest either "outboarding"
the vibe pump outside of the machine, as has been done by Dan Kehn and
written up on his website, www.home-barista.com , or I'd sell the vibe
machine and buy a factory built rotary one.

ken