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Main
Date: 13 Feb 2007 14:36:53
From: Gus
Subject: Full Cream microfoam?
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I was given a DVD for Christmas, Coffee Crazy, which has been mentioned on
ac in the past and is narrated by past Barista champ, Paul Bassett. One
thing that surprised me is that one of his top tips was that if you're after
microfoam "use full cream milk". At the end there's a plug for Dairy
Farmers Crema milk, which he was involved with making. But full cream? I
always thought semi-skim produced better results.
I'd be curious to know how the DF Crema product differs from other milk. On
their website they have a link for more info on all their products, except
for this one.
Gus
PS - I'm just adapting to life in Australia and noticed that Australian
don't use the term "semi-skim". I've been assuming that the equivalent is
"Lite" ("skim" is used)...is that right? Alan F?
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Date: 19 Feb 2007 07:32:32
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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On Feb 18, 10:43 pm, "Ed Needham" <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote:
> "Flasherly" <gjerr...@ij.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171744498.210212.267390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I saw them anti-foaming agents in cheese processing. Imperfectly
> > understood, fats between their crystalline and soluable states
> > (derived from hard fraction resonance imaging), apparently leave
> > something to be desired to an end exacted upon formalaic "brandname"
> > processing of milk. No less, to infer, some deviation will exist
> > across a consistency encountered on occasion. So far as I see in this
> > introduction - so not to read any farther than need be. :)
>
> >http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/1/55.pdf
>
> I found this statement from the above referenced paper interesting,
> "the presence of solid fat was destructive to the formation of the foam e=
ven
> though it subsequently proved to enhance the overall stability"
> ...meaning, the high fat milk may be more difficult to foam, but once
> foamed, will be more stable.
> --
> *********************
> Ed Needham=AE
> "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com
> (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
> *********************
For an aerated quality desired in cafelattes, heavier milkfats or
cream would then be optimal, except for a taste each accords.
Personally, I'd as soon forgo a heavy cream taste to coffee, reminds
me of synthesized coffee creamers (coconut extracts?). Not too wild
about light milks, a "skinny", either.
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Date: 19 Feb 2007 15:22:48
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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I love a good double shot of well crafted espresso, but I also like
cappuccino. When the milk is frothed properly and added to a tasty double
espresso, there is a blending of the two that just works. It's neither
coffee flavored milk or milk flavored coffee. It becomes something totally
different and enjoyable.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote in message
news:1171899151.942524.179600@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
For an aerated quality desired in cafelattes, heavier milkfats or
cream would then be optimal, except for a taste each accords.
Personally, I'd as soon forgo a heavy cream taste to coffee, reminds
me of synthesized coffee creamers (coconut extracts?). Not too wild
about light milks, a "skinny", either.
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Date: 17 Feb 2007 12:34:58
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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On Feb 13, 7:25 pm, "Ed Needham" <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote:
> I've heard that some brands of milk use an anti foaming additive to aid in
> processing. Anyone know the truth? I've used an organic whole milk with
> great results, but I've never had much trouble with any of them. Once in a
> whole I've gotten a gallon that just won't steam to a decent microfoam at
> all, but it's rare.
I saw them anti-foaming agents in cheese processing. Imperfectly
understood, fats between their crystalline and soluable states
(derived from hard fraction resonance imaging), apparently leave
something to be desired to an end exacted upon formalaic "brandname"
processing of milk. No less, to infer, some deviation will exist
across a consistency encountered on occasion. So far as I see in this
introduction - so not to read any farther than need be. :)
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/1/55.pdf
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Date: 18 Feb 2007 22:43:02
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote in message
news:1171744498.210212.267390@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> I saw them anti-foaming agents in cheese processing. Imperfectly
> understood, fats between their crystalline and soluable states
> (derived from hard fraction resonance imaging), apparently leave
> something to be desired to an end exacted upon formalaic "brandname"
> processing of milk. No less, to infer, some deviation will exist
> across a consistency encountered on occasion. So far as I see in this
> introduction - so not to read any farther than need be. :)
>
> http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/1/55.pdf
>
I found this statement from the above referenced paper interesting,
"the presence of solid fat was destructive to the formation of the foam even
though it subsequently proved to enhance the overall stability"
...meaning, the high fat milk may be more difficult to foam, but once
foamed, will be more stable.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 19:25:44
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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I've heard that some brands of milk use an anti foaming additive to aid in
processing. Anyone know the truth? I've used an organic whole milk with
great results, but I've never had much trouble with any of them. Once in a
whole I've gotten a gallon that just won't steam to a decent microfoam at
all, but it's rare.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"Gus" <DamnSpam@NoDamnSpam.com > wrote in message
news:45d13251$0$9772$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>I was given a DVD for Christmas, Coffee Crazy, which has been mentioned on
>ac in the past and is narrated by past Barista champ, Paul Bassett. One
>thing that surprised me is that one of his top tips was that if you're
>after microfoam "use full cream milk". At the end there's a plug for Dairy
>Farmers Crema milk, which he was involved with making. But full cream? I
>always thought semi-skim produced better results.
>
> I'd be curious to know how the DF Crema product differs from other milk.
> On their website they have a link for more info on all their products,
> except for this one.
<SNIP >
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 22:39:45
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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> I've heard that some brands of milk use an anti foaming additive to aid in
> processing. Anyone know the truth? I've used an organic whole milk with
> great results, but I've never had much trouble with any of them. Once in a
> whole I've gotten a gallon that just won't steam to a decent microfoam at all,
> but it's rare.
Ed, you live near me and I've had the same experience. I wonder if we aren't
getting the same milk? The half-gallons of Organic Valley whole milk froths
great, but the gallons don't do squat. Not a single microbubble, just hot milk.
Horizon whole milk froths so-so. Someone told me that it's probably the
processing temps or times. Or, they are re-processing the milk for the gallons.
There is food-grade silicone additives that are FDA approved to be used as an
anti-foam agent in food processing. Their use is limited on a percent basis. It
is possible that is the reason.
Dan
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Date: 17 Feb 2007 04:35:55
From: Roger Shoaf
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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I drove a milk tanker for a while and I have some observations. First off
cows vary. This might sound strange but those big old black and white
Holstein cows give more milk per milking, but the butterfat level in the
milk is less. The Brown jersey cows give less milk, but it is far richer.
Some farmers have mixed bread cows so that changes things also.
Next observation is that one milk truck might pick up the production from 5
or 6 dairy farms. Each is sampled and the milk processor is concerned with
3 basic things. First is the bacteria count. The next thing is if there is
any trace of antibiotics. (The milk from one cow being treated with
antibiotics is enough to scrap the entire 6,000 truckload of milk.) And the
third priy factor is the butterfat content of the milk. (This is how the
farmer gets paid, the more cream the milk has, the higher the price.)
When the milk arrives at the plant, an additional sample is drawn from the
tanker. If it passes inspection, it is accepted and pumped into a big silo.
Now I am told the milk is separated into it's component parts, and then
recombined into different dairy products. The only non milk additive I know
about is the vitamin fortification. (A & D)
Some states have different quality standards. As an example California has
a requirement that fluid milk have a minimum amount of milk solids as a
percentage, so if the cows product is a little thin that day the processor
twists a knob and the milk in the bottle is now saleable in CA.
Organic milk is a little different. It is processed in the same way, but it
is kept segregated from the regular milk. At the farm the cows are fed only
"organic" pesticide free food and there are restrictions as to the
veterinary care that the cows can receive. My opinion is that the "organic"
milk is just a keting gimmick.
My suspicion is that the foaming problem is probably due to the age of the
milk, or the milk solids level, and that as you have noticed, can be a crap
shoot depending on the weather, the breed of the cows, the diet of the cows
etc.
You might want to contact the individual milk processing plant and express
your concerns to them, they might have the definitive answer. What I have
said here is only the observations of a curious truck driver that asked lots
of questions and listened to the replies.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:LeKdnbd1StNZGU_YnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> > I've heard that some brands of milk use an anti foaming additive to aid
in
> > processing. Anyone know the truth? I've used an organic whole milk
with
> > great results, but I've never had much trouble with any of them. Once
in a
> > whole I've gotten a gallon that just won't steam to a decent microfoam
at all,
> > but it's rare.
>
> Ed, you live near me and I've had the same experience. I wonder if we
aren't
> getting the same milk? The half-gallons of Organic Valley whole milk
froths
> great, but the gallons don't do squat. Not a single microbubble, just hot
milk.
> Horizon whole milk froths so-so. Someone told me that it's probably the
> processing temps or times. Or, they are re-processing the milk for the
gallons.
>
> There is food-grade silicone additives that are FDA approved to be used as
an
> anti-foam agent in food processing. Their use is limited on a percent
basis. It
> is possible that is the reason.
>
> Dan
>
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Date: 17 Feb 2007 08:33:55
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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>I drove a milk tanker for a while and I have some observations. First off
> cows vary.
Roger, Everything you say rings true for me. I grew up on a farm. Our neighbor
had a milk herd and I helped out with milking sometimes. My former father-in-law
was a vet and had a farm with some animals including a cow we milked (a Jersey
or Guernsey, I forget which).
Anti-foamer wouldn't be added unless needed, and then only at the bottling
stage. Since it is used in such low amounts, it isn't reported on the label. Of
course, its use would negate any organic claims.
I don't think my whole milk's problem is low solids content. After all, it is
whole milk, more solids than say skim, and skim is frothable.
I haven't tried it, but I suspect that you could not froth cooled, scalded milk.
The reason being the proteins have all been cooked.
If I can find the website, I'll contact the dairy and ask them what's up. Dan
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 23:07:36
From: Steven C
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:36:53 +1100, Gus wrote:
> I was given a DVD for Christmas, Coffee Crazy, which has been mentioned on
> ac in the past and is narrated by past Barista champ, Paul Bassett. One
> thing that surprised me is that one of his top tips was that if you're
after
> microfoam "use full cream milk". At the end there's a plug for Dairy
> Farmers Crema milk, which he was involved with making. But full cream? I
> always thought semi-skim produced better results.
>
> I'd be curious to know how the DF Crema product differs from other milk.
On
> their website they have a link for more info on all their products, except
> for this one.
>
> Gus
> PS - I'm just adapting to life in Australia and noticed that Australian
> don't use the term "semi-skim". I've been assuming that the equivalent is
> "Lite" ("skim" is used)...is that right? Alan F?
Jim Hoffman wrote an good article in his blog on this subject.
http://jimseven.com/2006/12/16/why-wont-my-milk-foam/
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 14:57:13
From: razmoo
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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People use full cream because of the fat, ie the creamier taste. Lite
milk has more protein/less fat that is why its easier to foam, but on
the same hand easier to overfoam.
I used to work at a place that only used that crema milk.. it has more
protein than normal full cream milk.
I personally use woolworths lite milk as I have problems drinking full
cream.
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 18:28:00
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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"Gus" But full cream? I
> always thought semi-skim produced better results.
http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/Milkfrothing.htm
bit old but i concluded Channnel island was the biz - which is super full
fat as you may remember. the other two independant full fat brands frothed
well . Of the run of the mill past-your- eyes stuff the skimmed worked
best.
Incidentally a chap a work just gave me that DVD. Trouble is its australian
(different region - not behung with corks and tinnies). So i might get to
see it or i might not.
Ken
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 17:56:28
From: Rusty
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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"Gus" <DamnSpam@NoDamnSpam.com > wrote in message
news:45d13251$0$9772$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>I was given a DVD for Christmas, Coffee Crazy, which has been mentioned on
>ac in the past and is narrated by past Barista champ, Paul Bassett. One
>thing that surprised me is that one of his top tips was that if you're
>after microfoam "use full cream milk". At the end there's a plug for Dairy
>Farmers Crema milk, which he was involved with making. But full cream? I
>always thought semi-skim produced better results.
>
> I'd be curious to know how the DF Crema product differs from other milk.
> On their website they have a link for more info on all their products,
> except for this one.
>
> Gus
> PS - I'm just adapting to life in Australia and noticed that Australian
> don't use the term "semi-skim". I've been assuming that the equivalent is
> "Lite" ("skim" is used)...is that right? Alan F?
Hi Gus,
I will try the DF Crema, but I have excellent results with Woolworths Lite
as well as their full cream. I do find the full cream works best contrary
to all the expert's opinions.
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 19:23:21
From: Gus
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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> I will try the DF Crema, but I have excellent results with Woolworths Lite
> as well as their full cream. I do find the full cream works best contrary
> to all the expert's opinions.
Interesting. In the UK I couldn't get decent microfoam with full cream, but
could with semi skim. Just bought a bottle of each here in Oz and found the
results between the two are pretty similar. Go figure.
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Date: 13 Feb 2007 11:39:21
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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>Just bought a bottle of each here in Oz
Hah! If it came in a bottle, it's <upket > milk, results unpredictable.
Results will vary from state to state, as the major chains (Coles & Woolies)
are supplied from local dairy farms. In general, I find Coles Farmland milk
(MILK milk) to be the most reliable over time. Paul's is generally worst.
All the others are buggered with in some way or another, which IMHO affects
the taste.
All of the above doesn't apply to USA conditions, where I usually find
simple pasteurized milk unavailable and the twin abominations, half-and-half
and skim, as the popular menu choices. In Oz, the customer ISN'T always
right... try ordering a "skinny" latte at io's in Brinswick St. and see
how you go.
--
Alan
alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
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Date: 12 Feb 2007 20:43:26
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Full Cream microfoam?
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On Feb 12, 10:36 pm, "Gus" <DamnS...@NoDamnSpam.com > wrote:
> I was given a DVD for Christmas, Coffee Crazy, which has been mentioned on
> ac in the past and is narrated by past Barista champ, Paul Bassett. One
> thing that surprised me is that one of his top tips was that if you're after
> microfoam "use full cream milk". At the end there's a plug for Dairy
> Farmers Crema milk, which he was involved with making. But full cream? I
> always thought semi-skim produced better results.
>
> I'd be curious to know how the DF Crema product differs from other milk. On
> their website they have a link for more info on all their products, except
> for this one.
>
> Gus
> PS - I'm just adapting to life in Australia and noticed that Australian
> don't use the term "semi-skim". I've been assuming that the equivalent is
> "Lite" ("skim" is used)...is that right? Alan F?
Sponsorship plug. Same as I've run across, SM is said to be easier to
work with. They all work fine for me, but I like regular.
Investigate if needed, or enjoy what you like.
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