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Date: 06 May 2007 18:20:57
From: Godzilla
Subject: Further proof of staling
The last few days, I have been too pre-occupied with other problems to
make any espresso for myself. I had been drinking the Black Cat that
I purchased from Intelligencia as a comparison to my usual Malabar
Gold that I roast myself. The bag of BC has been in the freezer since
it arrived by UPS. Each time that I wanted a shot, I would measure
out a little more than I needed and give it an hour to come down to
room temperature as I warmed up my inadequate aging Estro Vapore.
Although it was a completely different taste from the MG, I considered
it to be quite good.

Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.

Back to the roaster for me. Now, I must wait the required three or
four days for my Malabar Gold to "mature."

Godzilla




 
Date: 26 May 2007 09:31:47
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
On May 7, 3:39 pm, tcplann...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> We keep it simple. I order 6 pounds of Black Cat at a time. They
> arrive about 48 hours post-roast. I freeze them immediately. I take a
> pound out of the freezer the night before I'm going to start using it.
> A pound lasts us anywhere from 3-5 days so its good for the entire
> period. Just had a very nice shot of Black Cat this morning from a
> batch that's several weeks old. But this coffee has only been out of
> the freezer a couple of days.
>
> -Ray

Got into the last pre-roasted stuff I ordered before getting a roaster
and going green. I vacuum sealed the stuff with no loss of air -
still tightly packaged. Maybe sat up for three months in the
freezer. Now, after three or four days after taking it out to drink,
its taste sucks so bad, I didn't want to continue and, rather, roasted
fresh beans this morning. Stale and nondescript - not as bad but
analogously kin to cheap, canned coffee that's drip brewed. Decidedly
better to be had. Doesn't seem that the pre-roast could have tasted
so bad when I got it, while at the same time getting into and being
new to green beans, somehow, that a taste for fresh roast should come
between to overshadow my recollection. Easier to conceive I've simply
pushed it too long in the freezer.



 
Date: 08 May 2007 07:03:50
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
On May 7, 6:02 pm, Godzilla <godzi...@monsters.org > wrote:
> Paul Vojta wrote:
> > In article <111d5$463e62da$cf9b1316$30...@ALLTEL.NET>,
> > Godzilla <godzi...@monsters.org> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >>Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
> >>UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
> >>roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.
>
> > Proof of staling, yes, but proof of staling of what? It seems very
> > likely to me that the stale coffee you are tasting is the residual
> > coffee in your grinder, not the beans that you took out of the
> > freezer. Ever taken your grinder apart for cleaning, and noticed how
> > many grinds
> > get left behind? (Of course, this depends on your grinder, mine
> > being a rocky, but except for the Versalab and maybe some conical
> > grinders, I would expect the amount of residual grinds to be roughly
> > the same.)
>
> > --Paul Vojta, v...@math.berkeley.edu
>
> I am a little fanatic on that point, therefore I don't believe that
> your conjecture is valid in this case. Every other time that I load
> the hopper of my Macap with 20 grams of beans, I bring out the vacuum
> cleaner and vacuum first from the top where the beans enter the
> grinding burrs and then stick the end of the hose into the out chute.
>
> Godzilla

I think you are going WAY overboard on this cleaning thing.


and putting a small amount of beans in the hopper for a few days use
is not a bad idea.

dave
dave



 
Date: 07 May 2007 23:40:06
From: Paul Vojta
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
In article <111d5$463e62da$cf9b1316$30390@ALLTEL.NET >,
Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote:

[snip]

>Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
>UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
>roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.

Proof of staling, yes, but proof of staling of what? It seems very likely
to me that the stale coffee you are tasting is the residual coffee in
your grinder, not the beans that you took out of the freezer.
Ever taken your grinder apart for cleaning, and noticed how many grinds
get left behind? (Of course, this depends on your grinder, mine being
a rocky, but except for the Versalab and maybe some conical grinders,
I would expect the amount of residual grinds to be roughly the same.)

--Paul Vojta, vojta@math.berkeley.edu


  
Date: 07 May 2007 20:02:19
From: Godzilla
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
Paul Vojta wrote:

> In article <111d5$463e62da$cf9b1316$30390@ALLTEL.NET>,
> Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
>>UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
>>roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.
>
> Proof of staling, yes, but proof of staling of what? It seems very
> likely to me that the stale coffee you are tasting is the residual
> coffee in your grinder, not the beans that you took out of the
> freezer. Ever taken your grinder apart for cleaning, and noticed how
> many grinds
> get left behind? (Of course, this depends on your grinder, mine
> being a rocky, but except for the Versalab and maybe some conical
> grinders, I would expect the amount of residual grinds to be roughly
> the same.)
>
> --Paul Vojta, vojta@math.berkeley.edu

I am a little fanatic on that point, therefore I don't believe that
your conjecture is valid in this case. Every other time that I load
the hopper of my Macap with 20 grams of beans, I bring out the vacuum
cleaner and vacuum first from the top where the beans enter the
grinding burrs and then stick the end of the hose into the out chute.

Godzilla


   
Date: 08 May 2007 10:18:36
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
In article <dee28$463fcc1b$cf9b1316$28779@ALLTEL.NET >,
Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote:
> Paul Vojta wrote:

> > In article <111d5$463e62da$cf9b1316$30390@ALLTEL.NET>,
> > Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org> wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >>Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
> >>UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
> >>roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.
> >
> > Proof of staling, yes, but proof of staling of what? It seems very
> > likely to me that the stale coffee you are tasting is the residual
> > coffee in your grinder, not the beans that you took out of the
> > freezer. Ever taken your grinder apart for cleaning, and noticed how
> > many grinds
> > get left behind? (Of course, this depends on your grinder, mine
> > being a rocky, but except for the Versalab and maybe some conical
> > grinders, I would expect the amount of residual grinds to be roughly
> > the same.)
> >
> > --Paul Vojta, vojta@math.berkeley.edu

> I am a little fanatic on that point, therefore I don't believe that
> your conjecture is valid in this case. Every other time that I load
> the hopper of my Macap with 20 grams of beans, I bring out the vacuum
> cleaner and vacuum first from the top where the beans enter the
> grinding burrs and then stick the end of the hose into the out chute.

I use a thin artists/child's paintbrush, a cheapy
with stiff(ish) bristles rather soft camel hair,
to qickly brush out the horizontal chute leading
from the grinding chamber to the doser on my Cunill
CT-1. A quick 2 second dab of the motor ..and any
grounds that I've pushed back into the chamber are
also ejected. Mind, it's easy to get at as it's
just under the doser lid.

Takes but 10 seconds or so in total, leaves the path
and chamber clear as well and immediately utilises
the 2 grammes or whatever of ground that remains in
the chute.

With nothing left to stale there's no need to strip
anything apart before you absolutely need to ..and
no connoisseur taste/odour from the grinder.

hh.. :))

Bill ZFC

For interest, the grinding chamber of the CT-1 is
always swept pretty clean by it's blade wipers -
as is the floor of the doser by it's sweepers...

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/


 
Date: 07 May 2007 12:39:07
From:
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
On May 7, 12:59 pm, "I- >Ian" <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2007 12:22:52 -0400, "Ed Needham"
>
> <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com> wrote:
> >Store in small, weekly use sized jars or mylar coffee bags. Take out what
> >you would use for a week and the night before you run out, take another
> >bag/jar from the freezer so it is at room temperature before morning.
>
> 3 or 4 day storage maybe more appropriate.
>
> Some consider days 4-8 the espresso sweet spot in the staling process.
>
> Assuming you get the coffee within a day or two from the roaster:
> Split the order into 3 day sized lots.
> As you start one, remove the next from the freezer. This way, the bag
> in use will be on days 4 or 5 through days 7 or 8 when it runs out.

We keep it simple. I order 6 pounds of Black Cat at a time. They
arrive about 48 hours post-roast. I freeze them immediately. I take a
pound out of the freezer the night before I'm going to start using it.
A pound lasts us anywhere from 3-5 days so its good for the entire
period. Just had a very nice shot of Black Cat this morning from a
batch that's several weeks old. But this coffee has only been out of
the freezer a couple of days.

-Ray



  
Date: 07 May 2007 18:09:33
From: Godzilla
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
tcplanning@gmail.com wrote:

> On May 7, 12:59 pm, "I->Ian" <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 May 2007 12:22:52 -0400, "Ed Needham"
>>
>> <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com> wrote:
>> >Store in small, weekly use sized jars or mylar coffee bags. Take
>> >out what you would use for a week and the night before you run
>> >out, take another bag/jar from the freezer so it is at room
>> >temperature before morning.
>>
>> 3 or 4 day storage maybe more appropriate.
>>
>> Some consider days 4-8 the espresso sweet spot in the staling
>> process.
>>
>> Assuming you get the coffee within a day or two from the roaster:
>> Split the order into 3 day sized lots.
>> As you start one, remove the next from the freezer. This way, the
>> bag in use will be on days 4 or 5 through days 7 or 8 when it runs
>> out.
>
> We keep it simple. I order 6 pounds of Black Cat at a time. They
> arrive about 48 hours post-roast. I freeze them immediately. I take
> a pound out of the freezer the night before I'm going to start using
> it. A pound lasts us anywhere from 3-5 days so its good for the
> entire period. Just had a very nice shot of Black Cat this morning
> from a batch that's several weeks old. But this coffee has only been
> out of the freezer a couple of days.
>
> -Ray

You are indeed fortunate in your logistics, which I am in no position
to duplicate. Living in Texas, my package arrived 5 days post roast
for openers. Since most of the time I am the only espresso drinker
down at the ranch, I must deal in grams instead of pounds for
espresso consumption. This is a rare example of something being
SMALLER in Texas than it is elsewhere ;-)

Godzilla


 
Date: 07 May 2007 11:25:59
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
Part of your problem might be your method of storage and retrieval.
Repeatedly opening and closing the bag allows condensation to form on
the beans. Coffee is hygroscopic, it absorbs water. Repeated doses of
condensation will more than promote staling, it will encourage the
coffee to go rancid.

R "yum" TF



Godzilla wrote:
> The last few days, I have been too pre-occupied with other problems to
> make any espresso for myself. I had been drinking the Black Cat that
> I purchased from Intelligencia as a comparison to my usual Malabar
> Gold that I roast myself. The bag of BC has been in the freezer since
> it arrived by UPS. Each time that I wanted a shot, I would measure
> out a little more than I needed and give it an hour to come down to
> room temperature as I warmed up my inadequate aging Estro Vapore.
> Although it was a completely different taste from the MG, I considered
> it to be quite good.
>
> Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
> UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
> roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.
>
> Back to the roaster for me. Now, I must wait the required three or
> four days for my Malabar Gold to "mature."
>
> Godzilla


  
Date: 07 May 2007 11:00:12
From: Godzilla
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
Moka Java wrote:

> Part of your problem might be your method of storage and retrieval.
> Repeatedly opening and closing the bag allows condensation to form
> on
> the beans. Coffee is hygroscopic, it absorbs water. Repeated doses
> of condensation will more than promote staling, it will encourage
> the coffee to go rancid.
>
> R "yum" TF
>

You raise an interesting point that I had not considered. However,
with pre-roasted coffee (such as what I purchased from Intelligencia)
how else could one store it to postpone staleness until the bag is
finished? It is a somewhat mute point, since I roast my own Malabar
Gold in 64 gram batches. However, it would be nice to know for future
reference.

Godzilla
>
>
> Godzilla wrote:
>> The last few days, I have been too pre-occupied with other problems
>> to make any espresso for myself. I had been drinking the Black Cat
>> that I purchased from Intelligencia as a comparison to my usual
>> Malabar Gold that I roast myself. The bag of BC has been in the
>> freezer since it arrived by UPS. Each time that I wanted a shot, I
>> would measure out a little more than I needed and give it an hour
>> to come down to room temperature as I warmed up my inadequate aging
>> Estro Vapore. Although it was a completely different taste from the
>> MG, I considered it to be quite good.
>>
>> Today, I took some out, did my usual routine and the result:
>> UGH! Stale is stale is stale, if I may paraphrase. Looking at the
>> roast date on the bag - three weeks have elapsed.
>>
>> Back to the roaster for me. Now, I must wait the required three or
>> four days for my Malabar Gold to "mature."
>>
>> Godzilla



   
Date: 25 May 2007 10:26:23
From: David Snyder Hale
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote:

> You raise an interesting point that I had not considered. However,
> with pre-roasted coffee (such as what I purchased from Intelligencia)
> how else could one store it to postpone staleness until the bag is
> finished?

Better to just put it in a cool dark cupboard. An airtight jar is
pretty good. A resealable foil bag (like with a zip-lock) and with
one-way valve so you can squeeze out the air is pretty good. There's
only so much you can do to prolong the life of roasted coffee, to
enable yourself to keep it for up to 3-4 weeks. The freezer is only
going to create problems, not magically make month-old coffee fresh.

--
Dave * N3WTK (DM04xf)


   
Date: 07 May 2007 12:22:52
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
Store in small, weekly use sized jars or mylar coffee bags. Take out what
you would use for a week and the night before you run out, take another
bag/jar from the freezer so it is at room temperature before morning.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

"Godzilla" wrote in message news:cb11c$463f4d0c$cf9b1316$768@ALLTEL.NET...
> You raise an interesting point that I had not considered. However,
> with pre-roasted coffee (such as what I purchased from Intelligencia)
> how else could one store it to postpone staleness until the bag is
> finished? It is a somewhat mute point, since I roast my own Malabar
> Gold in 64 gram batches. However, it would be nice to know for future
> reference.
>
> Godzilla




    
Date: 07 May 2007 09:59:05
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Further proof of staling
On Mon, 7 May 2007 12:22:52 -0400, "Ed Needham"
<ed@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote:

>Store in small, weekly use sized jars or mylar coffee bags. Take out what
>you would use for a week and the night before you run out, take another
>bag/jar from the freezer so it is at room temperature before morning.

3 or 4 day storage maybe more appropriate.

Some consider days 4-8 the espresso sweet spot in the staling process.

Assuming you get the coffee within a day or two from the roaster:
Split the order into 3 day sized lots.
As you start one, remove the next from the freezer. This way, the bag
in use will be on days 4 or 5 through days 7 or 8 when it runs out.