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Date: 12 May 2007 16:38:22
From: arthur
Subject: Getting started
I'm a newbie to the group, also a beginner in the search for the perfect
cup of coffee.

Basically what I want is to make espresso at home. I accept that the
process has many elements and that each is capable of an indefinite
degree of refinement. However, my main concern at present is to decide
on a machine that will get me over the initial threshold, to give me
something that is not a mockery of the real thing. I realise it may not
be cheap; indeed I expect I may have to pay so much that I won't be able
to afford to try again ...

Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
URL. I've trying Google and such, but only get lots of thinly disguised
commercials and am at a loss how to devise a search that will keep them
out.

I'd be very grateful for suggestions about books or web references, or
other sources of advice to get me started.




 
Date: 16 May 2007 07:02:35
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Getting started
On May 15, 4:51 pm, shane <shane.ol...@juno.com > wrote:
> On May 15, 2:02 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > How much is the GS3 retailing at, ~$4000? All consumer espresso machines are
> > niche items - how many homes have even a Delonghi?
>
> > Then there are niches within the consumer niche;
> > * under $200 => Delonghi, Krups, etc.
> > * $200 - $700 => Gaggia, Solis, Silvia, etc.
> > * $700 - $1700 => most prosumer models
> > * $1700 & above => status symbols like the GS3
>
> > It would appear that as a prosumer machine priced near $4000, the GS3 is
> > placing itself in a *very* rarified niche & their production estimates must
> > be in the low 3 figure range. So I don't see it affecting the market or
> > causing the other companies to change the ways they do business. IMHO, It's
> > just not going to be a factor one way or the other.
> > --
> > Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> > newsgroup!) Harmon
> > --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj-My coffee pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87-My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2-I have things for sale here.
>
> > Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane" <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1179253525.998549.6520@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Aren't most prosumer espresso machines basically niche items? By this
> > > I mean anything over $1000.
> > > If a machine is priced under $1000 your average non-coffeegeek
> > > consumer might buy one. I know a couple, who live modestly, bought a
> > > $700-800 superauto, as they figured it would pay for itself in not
> > > taking trips to Starbucks. I have seen other people who do not know
> > > much about coffee, except that they like it, go out and buy sub $1000
> > > espresso machines.
>
> > > Is the GS3 even available in the US yet? Will it hit a saturation
> > > point of demand?
>
> > > Shane
>
> > > On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Howdy Shane!
> > >> If the GS3 is directed toward the home/office user, then it's priced
> > >> itself
> > >> to be a niche player & will be no threat (therefore no motivator for
> > >> change)
> > >> to the espresso makers with consumer/prosumer models. *IF* they were more
> > >> competitive in the price & could satisfy the ensuing demand, then it
> > >> might
> > >> cause the other makers to enhance their lineups.
>
> > >> FWIW - I see the GS3 solely as a prosumer machine. If they're able to
> > >> make
> > >> inroads into the coffee house market then the above statements are null &
> > >> void.
> > >> --
> > >> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> > >> newsgroup!) Harmon
> > >> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj-Mycoffee
> > >> pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87-My'Guidelines For Newbies'
> > >> page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2-Ihave things for sale here.
>
> > >> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane"
> > >> <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> > >>news:1179248741.081865.213870@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > >> Snipped
>
> > >> > .... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it shifts the
> > >> > espresso machine market any.
>
> > >> > Shane- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I guess I meant a niche item of niche items. How big is the GS3? It
> is hard to judge from the pictures. It makes sense that it would have
> to compete on price against most of the prosumer models to do anything
> to change the market.
> It seems insane enough spending $1700 on an espresso machine, for the
> truly insane making the jump to $4000 does not seem like that much. I
> am sort of hoping the price might drop after the thing is out.
>
> Shane
>
> Shane

somebody came up with : "The Law of diminishing marginal utility.

i.e. a 1,000 pair of speakers is much better than a $500 pair.

but a 4,000 pair is NOT 4 times better than than the 1,000 pair.

gs3 dimensions 14H X 16 W X21D most home countertops are 24 to 25
inches from edge to wall.

http://www.lamarzocco.it/pdf/GS3_eng.pdf

DAVE





 
Date: 15 May 2007 13:51:14
From: shane
Subject: Re: Getting started
On May 15, 2:02 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> How much is the GS3 retailing at, ~$4000? All consumer espresso machines are
> niche items - how many homes have even a Delonghi?
>
> Then there are niches within the consumer niche;
> * under $200 => Delonghi, Krups, etc.
> * $200 - $700 => Gaggia, Solis, Silvia, etc.
> * $700 - $1700 => most prosumer models
> * $1700 & above => status symbols like the GS3
>
> It would appear that as a prosumer machine priced near $4000, the GS3 is
> placing itself in a *very* rarified niche & their production estimates must
> be in the low 3 figure range. So I don't see it affecting the market or
> causing the other companies to change the ways they do business. IMHO, It's
> just not going to be a factor one way or the other.
> --
> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> newsgroup!) Harmon
> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj- My coffee pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87- My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2- I have things for sale here.
>
> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane" <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1179253525.998549.6520@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Aren't most prosumer espresso machines basically niche items? By this
> > I mean anything over $1000.
> > If a machine is priced under $1000 your average non-coffeegeek
> > consumer might buy one. I know a couple, who live modestly, bought a
> > $700-800 superauto, as they figured it would pay for itself in not
> > taking trips to Starbucks. I have seen other people who do not know
> > much about coffee, except that they like it, go out and buy sub $1000
> > espresso machines.
>
> > Is the GS3 even available in the US yet? Will it hit a saturation
> > point of demand?
>
> > Shane
>
> > On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Howdy Shane!
> >> If the GS3 is directed toward the home/office user, then it's priced
> >> itself
> >> to be a niche player & will be no threat (therefore no motivator for
> >> change)
> >> to the espresso makers with consumer/prosumer models. *IF* they were more
> >> competitive in the price & could satisfy the ensuing demand, then it
> >> might
> >> cause the other makers to enhance their lineups.
>
> >> FWIW - I see the GS3 solely as a prosumer machine. If they're able to
> >> make
> >> inroads into the coffee house market then the above statements are null &
> >> void.
> >> --
> >> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> >> newsgroup!) Harmon
> >> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj-My coffee
> >> pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87-My 'Guidelines For Newbies'
> >> page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2-I have things for sale here.
>
> >> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane"
> >> <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1179248741.081865.213870@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >> Snipped
>
> >> > .... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it shifts the
> >> > espresso machine market any.
>
> >> > Shane- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I guess I meant a niche item of niche items. How big is the GS3? It
is hard to judge from the pictures. It makes sense that it would have
to compete on price against most of the prosumer models to do anything
to change the market.
It seems insane enough spending $1700 on an espresso machine, for the
truly insane making the jump to $4000 does not seem like that much. I
am sort of hoping the price might drop after the thing is out.

Shane

Shane



 
Date: 15 May 2007 12:59:00
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Getting started
On May 15, 3:02 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> How much is the GS3 retailing at, ~$4000? All consumer espresso machines are
> niche items - how many homes have even a Delonghi?
>
> Then there are niches within the consumer niche;
> * under $200 => Delonghi, Krups, etc.
> * $200 - $700 => Gaggia, Solis, Silvia, etc.
> * $700 - $1700 => most prosumer models
> * $1700 & above => status symbols like the GS3
>
> It would appear that as a prosumer machine priced near $4000, the GS3 is
> placing itself in a *very* rarified niche & their production estimates must
> be in the low 3 figure range. So I don't see it affecting the market or
> causing the other companies to change the ways they do business. IMHO, It's
> just not going to be a factor one way or the other.
> --
> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> newsgroup!) Harmon
> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj- My coffee pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87- My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2- I have things for sale here.
>
> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane" <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1179253525.998549.6520@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Aren't most prosumer espresso machines basically niche items? By this
> > I mean anything over $1000.
> > If a machine is priced under $1000 your average non-coffeegeek
> > consumer might buy one. I know a couple, who live modestly, bought a
> > $700-800 superauto, as they figured it would pay for itself in not
> > taking trips to Starbucks. I have seen other people who do not know
> > much about coffee, except that they like it, go out and buy sub $1000
> > espresso machines.
>
> > Is the GS3 even available in the US yet? Will it hit a saturation
> > point of demand?
>
> > Shane
>
> > On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Howdy Shane!
> >> If the GS3 is directed toward the home/office user, then it's priced
> >> itself
> >> to be a niche player & will be no threat (therefore no motivator for
> >> change)
> >> to the espresso makers with consumer/prosumer models. *IF* they were more
> >> competitive in the price & could satisfy the ensuing demand, then it
> >> might
> >> cause the other makers to enhance their lineups.
>
> >> FWIW - I see the GS3 solely as a prosumer machine. If they're able to
> >> make
> >> inroads into the coffee house market then the above statements are null &
> >> void.
> >> --
> >> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> >> newsgroup!) Harmon
> >> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj-My coffee
> >> pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87-My 'Guidelines For Newbies'
> >> page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2-I have things for sale here.
>
> >> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane"
> >> <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1179248741.081865.213870@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >> Snipped
>
> >> > .... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it shifts the
> >> > espresso machine market any.
>
> >> > Shane- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -

damn. me and harmon agreeing.

whoa.




 
Date: 15 May 2007 11:55:41
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Getting started



the GS3 could move the market, IF it sold for under $1,500 or so AND
fit on a normal home countertop.

But since it costs at least twice that plus shipping, and is <<BIG >>
it remains a fun thing for the wealthy. -- not that there is
anything wrong with that!

dave
www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 15 May 2007 11:25:26
From: shane
Subject: Re: Getting started
Aren't most prosumer espresso machines basically niche items? By this
I mean anything over $1000.
If a machine is priced under $1000 your average non-coffeegeek
consumer might buy one. I know a couple, who live modestly, bought a
$700-800 superauto, as they figured it would pay for itself in not
taking trips to Starbucks. I have seen other people who do not know
much about coffee, except that they like it, go out and buy sub $1000
espresso machines.

Is the GS3 even available in the US yet? Will it hit a saturation
point of demand?

Shane

On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Howdy Shane!
> If the GS3 is directed toward the home/office user, then it's priced itself
> to be a niche player & will be no threat (therefore no motivator for change)
> to the espresso makers with consumer/prosumer models. *IF* they were more
> competitive in the price & could satisfy the ensuing demand, then it might
> cause the other makers to enhance their lineups.
>
> FWIW - I see the GS3 solely as a prosumer machine. If they're able to make
> inroads into the coffee house market then the above statements are null &
> void.
> --
> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
> newsgroup!) Harmon
> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj- My coffee pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87- My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2- I have things for sale here.
>
> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane" <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1179248741.081865.213870@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Snipped
>
>
>
> > .... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it shifts the
> > espresso machine market any.
>
> > Shane- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -




  
Date: 15 May 2007 19:02:27
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Getting started
How much is the GS3 retailing at, ~$4000? All consumer espresso machines are
niche items - how many homes have even a Delonghi?

Then there are niches within the consumer niche;
* under $200 = > Delonghi, Krups, etc.
* $200 - $700 = > Gaggia, Solis, Silvia, etc.
* $700 - $1700 = > most prosumer models
* $1700 & above = > status symbols like the GS3

It would appear that as a prosumer machine priced near $4000, the GS3 is
placing itself in a *very* rarified niche & their production estimates must
be in the low 3 figure range. So I don't see it affecting the market or
causing the other companies to change the ways they do business. IMHO, It's
just not going to be a factor one way or the other.
--
Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.
"shane" <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1179253525.998549.6520@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Aren't most prosumer espresso machines basically niche items? By this
> I mean anything over $1000.
> If a machine is priced under $1000 your average non-coffeegeek
> consumer might buy one. I know a couple, who live modestly, bought a
> $700-800 superauto, as they figured it would pay for itself in not
> taking trips to Starbucks. I have seen other people who do not know
> much about coffee, except that they like it, go out and buy sub $1000
> espresso machines.
>
> Is the GS3 even available in the US yet? Will it hit a saturation
> point of demand?
>
> Shane
>
> On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>> Howdy Shane!
>> If the GS3 is directed toward the home/office user, then it's priced
>> itself
>> to be a niche player & will be no threat (therefore no motivator for
>> change)
>> to the espresso makers with consumer/prosumer models. *IF* they were more
>> competitive in the price & could satisfy the ensuing demand, then it
>> might
>> cause the other makers to enhance their lineups.
>>
>> FWIW - I see the GS3 solely as a prosumer machine. If they're able to
>> make
>> inroads into the coffee house market then the above statements are null &
>> void.
>> --
>> Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
>> newsgroup!) Harmon
>> --http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj- My coffee
>> pages.http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87- My 'Guidelines For Newbies'
>> page.http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2- I have things for sale here.
>>
>> Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email."shane"
>> <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1179248741.081865.213870@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> Snipped
>>
>>
>>
>> > .... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it shifts the
>> > espresso machine market any.
>>
>> > Shane- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>




 
Date: 15 May 2007 10:05:41
From: shane
Subject: Re: Getting started
On May 15, 11:53 am, arthur <art...@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote:
> The message <1179168438.365925.147...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
> from shane <shane.ol...@juno.com> contains these words:
>
> > Welcome to the foray.. I would also second the advice about spending
> > money on a grinder.
> > Are you looking to make just espresso, or do you also want to steam
> > milk and stuff?
> > Shane
>
> I think, only espresso. This could change. However, just espresso
> would keep me busy and happy for a long time!

I have a Mazzer Mini Grinder and a Starbuck's Barista espresso
machine. The Mazzer grinder made a big improvement in my espresso.
When you start looking for a machine that can make both espresso and
steam milk well, the price starts going up quickly. Just making
espresso well, requires less than doing both.
After studying various reviews for a few years myself, I came to the
conclusion that to get a machine that would be a significant, key
word: significant, improvement on the Barista, would be well over a
$1000. I had thought of getting a Silvia, but no significant
improvement over the barista, so I am waiting until I can go
higher.... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it
shifts the espresso machine market any.

Shane



  
Date: 15 May 2007 17:22:17
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Getting started
Howdy Shane!
If the GS3 is directed toward the home/office user, then it's priced itself
to be a niche player & will be no threat (therefore no motivator for change)
to the espresso makers with consumer/prosumer models. *IF* they were more
competitive in the price & could satisfy the ensuing demand, then it might
cause the other makers to enhance their lineups.

FWIW - I see the GS3 solely as a prosumer machine. If they're able to make
inroads into the coffee house market then the above statements are null &
void.
--
Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.
"shane" <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1179248741.081865.213870@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Snipped
> .... I really like the new GS3....I am curious to see if it shifts the
> espresso machine market any.
>
> Shane
>




 
Date: 14 May 2007 11:47:18
From: shane
Subject: Re: Getting started
Welcome to the foray.. I would also second the advice about spending
money on a grinder.

Are you looking to make just espresso, or do you also want to steam
milk and stuff?

Shane

On May 12, 10:38 am, arthur <art...@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote:
> I'm a newbie to the group, also a beginner in the search for the perfect
> cup of coffee.
>
> Basically what I want is to make espresso at home. I accept that the
> process has many elements and that each is capable of an indefinite
> degree of refinement. However, my main concern at present is to decide
> on a machine that will get me over the initial threshold, to give me
> something that is not a mockery of the real thing. I realise it may not
> be cheap; indeed I expect I may have to pay so much that I won't be able
> to afford to try again ...
>
> Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
> had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
> URL. I've trying Google and such, but only get lots of thinly disguised
> commercials and am at a loss how to devise a search that will keep them
> out.
>
> I'd be very grateful for suggestions about books or web references, or
> other sources of advice to get me started.




  
Date: 15 May 2007 17:53:11
From: arthur
Subject: Re: Getting started
The message <1179168438.365925.147480@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >
from shane <shane.olson@juno.com > contains these words:

> Welcome to the foray.. I would also second the advice about spending
> money on a grinder.

> Are you looking to make just espresso, or do you also want to steam
> milk and stuff?

> Shane

I think, only espresso. This could change. However, just espresso
would keep me busy and happy for a long time!


 
Date: 13 May 2007 15:15:12
From: arthur
Subject: Re: Getting started
Thanks to all of you for helful advice.

Coffeegeek is indeed the website I wanted; home-barista and Bogiesan and
hasbean have all proved of interest, and I have a lot more now to read
and digest.

Regards to all and 'more power to your elbows'.

Arthur


  
Date: 13 May 2007 21:26:56
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Getting started
arthur <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote:



   
Date: 15 May 2007 17:50:46
From: arthur
Subject: Re: Getting started
The message <46477f9c.4880487@localhost >
from ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) contains these words:

Thanks. I've had a look and am impressed.

I'm approaching reviews and articles about espresso just as I would ones
on hi-fi. I'm always aware that for some folk the equipment is more
important than the music.

> Be very wary of individual user reviews, as you will often get someone who
> is as green as you say you are, who buys a machine, and almosts immediately
> posts a positive review without having a basis for comparison. Because of
> this, CG is notorious for having positive reviews of grinders which tend to
> be OK for a year or so and then they wear out. It is harder to extract
> information from this newsgroup, but it has longer institutional memory.

> I see nobody recommended Alan Frew's website, http://www.coffeeco.com.au/;
> this is a commercial site, but Alan's comparisons of machines and grinders
> are careful, extremely detailed, and informed, and frankly you will learn
> more about buying a home espresso setup from 15 minutes on that site than
> you will spending hours on CG or a.c.

> - David R.
> --
> Less information than you ever thought possible:
> http://www.demitasse.net


    
Date: 16 May 2007 06:23:38
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Getting started


 
Date: 13 May 2007 05:18:02
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Getting started


  
Date: 13 May 2007 11:28:12
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Getting started
Oh, and sorry about the typos.

- David R.
--
Less information than you ever thought possible:
http://www.demitasse.net


 
Date: 12 May 2007 10:58:18
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Getting started
Arthur,

Welcome to the group. it sounds like you are starting off in the right
direction. Take your time, do a lot of reading, then decide how to go
about it. A substantial investment (which is a relative thing, I know)
is worth the expenditure to start off. Good tools with last years (if
not decades) and will allow you to grow.

You will need:
1) a quality grinder. The right grinder will last a lifetime. The
burrs will be replaceable, so every couple of years or so it will be
like getting a brand new grinder. Figure the low end here at about
$200 USD.

2) an espresso machine. As you have mentioned, this is the most
difficult decision. Just like purchasing a car, there are little price
increments that will take you from economy, through affordable,
straight on through to ridiculous... depending on to whom you speak.
Price can range from ABOUT $300 or so all the way to WAY over
$1000USD.

Part of that decision will be based on how the machine will be used.
if it is just for you and/or a small household, the Rancilio Silvia or
other quality single-boiler is sufficient. If it will be used for
groups or entertaining then look towards a heat exchanger model (HX)
which run from ABOUT $800 to well over $1700USD... We know of a very
nice $4500 USD home machine ;-) As you can see, this decision can be
difficult.


3) a source of FRESH, quality beans, properly roasted. For espresso,
beans that are mush more than two weeks old are a compromise at best,
and after three weeks since roasted will approach undrinkable 9or at
least they do for my palate).

Please feel free to read through my website (non-commercial). It
documents the path I began, just like yours, 6+ years ago. it is not
the same path you need to follow, but it might help you choose the one
that best suits you. if 80+ chapters plus all the instructional info
is not enough, take a look at my page of links. On www.coffeegeek.com
there are user reviews which you can read for specific machine which
can also be a big help.

Hope that helps get you started down the road to the asylum in which
we here on alt.coffee all reside.


Randy "Ward A - Room 32" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com



Arthur <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote:
>
>I'm a newbie to the group, also a beginner in the search for the perfect
>cup of coffee.
>
>Basically what I want is to make espresso at home. I accept that the
>process has many elements and that each is capable of an indefinite
>degree of refinement. However, my main concern at present is to decide
>on a machine that will get me over the initial threshold, to give me
>something that is not a mockery of the real thing. I realise it may not
>be cheap; indeed I expect I may have to pay so much that I won't be able
>to afford to try again ...
>
>Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
>had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
>URL. I've trying Google and such, but only get lots of thinly disguised
>commercials and am at a loss how to devise a search that will keep them
>out.
>
>I'd be very grateful for suggestions about books or web references, or
>other sources of advice to get me started.


 
Date: 12 May 2007 11:17:02
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Getting started
"arthur" <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote in message
news:31303030303331304645ED7E79@nospam.zetnet.co.uk...
> I'm a newbie to the group, also a beginner in the search for the perfect
> cup of coffee.

try www.home-barista.com

Once you get over the very basic stuff, I think you will find that it
provides the most enduring interest in the various forums out there.

ken




 
Date: 12 May 2007 16:54:00
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Getting started

"arthur" <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote in message
news:31303030303331304645ED7E79@nospam.zetnet.co.uk...
> I'm a newbie to the group, also a beginner in the search for the perfect
> cup of coffee.
>
> Basically what I want is to make espresso at home. I accept that the
> process has many elements and that each is capable of an indefinite
> degree of refinement. However, my main concern at present is to decide
> on a machine that will get me over the initial threshold, to give me
> something that is not a mockery of the real thing. I realise it may not
> be cheap; indeed I expect I may have to pay so much that I won't be able
> to afford to try again ...
>
> Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
> had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
> URL. I've trying Google and such, but only get lots of thinly disguised
> commercials and am at a loss how to devise a search that will keep them
> out.
>
> I'd be very grateful for suggestions about books or web references, or
> other sources of advice to get me started.

Check out Ken's website at www.kenwilson.fsnet.co.uk

Regards, BMC




  
Date: 12 May 2007 16:59:27
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Getting started

"Brian Colwell" <bmcolwell@shaw.ca > wrote in message
news:Iim1i.178495$aG1.20938@pd7urf3no...
>
> "arthur" <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:31303030303331304645ED7E79@nospam.zetnet.co.uk...
>> I'm a newbie to the group, also a beginner in the search for the perfect
>> cup of coffee.
>>
>> Basically what I want is to make espresso at home. I accept that the
>> process has many elements and that each is capable of an indefinite
>> degree of refinement. However, my main concern at present is to decide
>> on a machine that will get me over the initial threshold, to give me
>> something that is not a mockery of the real thing. I realise it may not
>> be cheap; indeed I expect I may have to pay so much that I won't be able
>> to afford to try again ...
>>
>> Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
>> had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
>> URL. I've trying Google and such, but only get lots of thinly disguised
>> commercials and am at a loss how to devise a search that will keep them
>> out.
>>
>> I'd be very grateful for suggestions about books or web references, or
>> other sources of advice to get me started.
>
> Check out Ken's website at www.kenwilson.fsnet.co.uk
>
> Regards, BMC
Sorry try this one !!
>http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/UKsuppliers.htm




   
Date: 12 May 2007 21:20:26
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: Getting started
"Brian

>>http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/UKsuppliers.htm
>


Er, thanks Brian, but that page is getting v long in the tooth now - if i
knew how to access it to update it i probably would........

I have just had a quick re-read of the original post that I found so
seful - its some 13 years old and the prices are well out of kilter but it
does explain the process IMHO better than anyone has managed since:
http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/Bogiesan.htm

There have only been 3 "innovations" since - it is possible to retro fit a
heath robinson eletrical gizmo/mod that maintains a more precise
temperature and hence allows you to more precisely hit the exact temperature
that you decide or are told is perfect - a PID controller; a "naked"
portafilter without the spouts at the bottom which, apparently, also
improves the cup to warrant buying retro market stuff - and the greater
affluence of alt.coffeeites which has led to a greater proportion of
machines which don't heat the water on the fly (as eg the Silvia and home
Gaggias) and have to be switched between steam and shot but uses a large
boiler maintained at steaming temperature to heat water from a fresh
soiurce for the shot. I don't have either of the first two - but my machine
is now 8 yrs old and is used daily.
The krups option on my website hasn't been seen for ages - so ignore those.
The gaggias are the entry level - the Rancilio Sivia is probably a step up.

For the grinder, which has to be precise enough for consistency so don't be
swayed by the cheaper burr grinders, there are a couple of industrial
options - the Dualit (in my local large Whittards for 70 odd) is a
possibility - but only lasts a year or so. i have had the Rancilio Rocky
for ( very similar to the gaggia MDF but with a few more settings) , gosh, 7
yrs.


when you have your head around an unbiaised uncommercial view and need to
eye the eqpmnt and prices - i quite trust steve at hasbean.co.uk. His site
isn't unduly misleading; i got my last roaster from him and one of my chaps
at work gets coffee fortnightly from him and i'm impressed with that as
well.





    
Date: 13 May 2007 03:02:06
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Getting started

"Ken Wilson" <ken@kwilsonDEDUCT.fsnet.co.uk > wrote in message
news:f257ju$9n7$1@aioe.org...
> "Brian
>
>>>http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/UKsuppliers.htm
>>
>
>
> Er, thanks Brian, but that page is getting v long in the tooth now - if i
> knew how to access it to update it i probably would........
>
> I have just had a quick re-read of the original post that I found so
> eful - its some 13 years old and the prices are well out of kilter but it
> does explain the process IMHO better than anyone has managed since:
> http://www.kwilson.fsnet.co.uk/Bogiesan.htm
>
> There have only been 3 "innovations" since - it is possible to retro fit a
> heath robinson eletrical gizmo/mod that maintains a more precise
> temperature and hence allows you to more precisely hit the exact
> temperature that you decide or are told is perfect - a PID controller; a
> "naked" portafilter without the spouts at the bottom which, apparently,
> also improves the cup to warrant buying retro market stuff - and the
> greater affluence of alt.coffeeites which has led to a greater proportion
> of machines which don't heat the water on the fly (as eg the Silvia and
> home Gaggias) and have to be switched between steam and shot but uses a
> large boiler maintained at steaming temperature to heat water from a
> fresh soiurce for the shot. I don't have either of the first two - but my
> machine is now 8 yrs old and is used daily.
> The krups option on my website hasn't been seen for ages - so ignore
> those. The gaggias are the entry level - the Rancilio Sivia is probably a
> step up.
>
> For the grinder, which has to be precise enough for consistency so don't
> be swayed by the cheaper burr grinders, there are a couple of industrial
> options - the Dualit (in my local large Whittards for 70 odd) is a
> possibility - but only lasts a year or so. i have had the Rancilio Rocky
> for ( very similar to the gaggia MDF but with a few more settings) , gosh,
> 7 yrs.
>
>
> when you have your head around an unbiaised uncommercial view and need to
> eye the eqpmnt and prices - i quite trust steve at hasbean.co.uk. His
> site isn't unduly misleading; i got my last roaster from him and one of my
> chaps at work gets coffee fortnightly from him and i'm impressed with that
> as well.
>
Hi Ken,
Wow where does the time go !!! The first time I checked out you site was to
modify my grinder ( it worked out fine )
Things have certainly changed around here, The Silva/Rocky combination is
now considered entry level equipment ! it took me years to reach that
plateau, maybe because I didn't know any better :-))

Guess your right into the sailing season, must be nice !

Regards,
Brian




 
Date: 12 May 2007 15:45:47
From: Randall Nortman
Subject: Re: Getting started
On 2007-05-12, arthur <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk > wrote:
[...]
> Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
> had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
> URL.
[...]

Probably coffeegeek.com. Technically, it is Canada-based, but most
folks posting there are in the US. I think toomuchcoffee.com is the
most often mentioned one with a focus on the other side of the pond.
Some of the advice and selection of equipment will be different mostly
because of the different voltages in Europe vs. N. America.

You will need a good grinder before you get a good machine. Better to
have a $400 grinder and a $100 espresso machine than the other way
around. You'll see that advice given over and over and over and over
and over and over on both of the above forums.

--
Randall


  
Date: 12 May 2007 13:02:19
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Getting started
Randall is so right.

US $200 is IMHO the entry level for a decent espresso grinder -- gaggia MDF.

+
the Gaggia espresso around US$ 200 NEW -- you are on your way!

dave





"Randall Nortman" <usenet8189@wonderclown.com > wrote in message
news:Lil1i.14364$3P3.5870@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> On 2007-05-12, arthur <arthur@nospam.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> [...]
>> Someone once recommended me to a website ( I suspect, USA - based) which
>> had lots of articles and independent reviews, but of course I lost the
>> URL.
> [...]
>
> Probably coffeegeek.com. Technically, it is Canada-based, but most
> folks posting there are in the US. I think toomuchcoffee.com is the
> most often mentioned one with a focus on the other side of the pond.
> Some of the advice and selection of equipment will be different mostly
> because of the different voltages in Europe vs. N. America.
>
> You will need a good grinder before you get a good machine. Better to
> have a $400 grinder and a $100 espresso machine than the other way
> around. You'll see that advice given over and over and over and over
> and over and over on both of the above forums.
>
> --
> Randall