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Date: 27 Dec 2006 15:02:04
From: nicfortin
Subject: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
After reading on HB, CG and alt-coffee for 2 months and "shopping" for
a quality grinder... Am I the only one who believe that Mazzer, Macap
etc. are not listening?
In the 400-800$ range all that I see is '50 design with some little new
features.
Do you expect us to be happy to pay 400-800$ for a device that still
has the same'old design and flaws and having to tweak/mod it? Having
your "holy" name on it doen't worth that much to me, I'm not shopping
for a piece of Italian art! By design flaws I mean : Vertical setup,
motor (heat) below grinding unit. Horizontal flat burr setup (conical
make a little more sense for that setup but still). Ok guys time to
re-think your design, give that old patent to the Chineses at least
they will be able to put it on the ket for 50$ (or less) in which
case I wouldn't mind buying some "flaws"...

Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to
their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for
150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good
quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much.
Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking
for their line of grinders!

My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
grinders that are worth 400-800$. Don't get me wrong they do a good job
but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
(Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.

By the way I'm still shopping for a good grinder, any deal out there?
;-)

nic





 
Date: 28 Dec 2006 14:09:43
From: nicfortin
Subject: Nice Mod!

Dan Bollinger wrote:
> > btw, considering my propensity for modifying equipment, it might come
> > as a shock to learn that i've NEVER MODIFIED A MAZZER. i've never
> > felt the urge to modify a mazzer.
>
> Clearly, some of us of stronger 'urges' than others. :) I converted my MM
> from multi-doser to single-doser. Dan
>
> http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/Mazzer%20Mini%20single%20doser.jpg

Wow, I guess (hope) you have already share with other what, how, what
tools and how much to do this mod?!? Looks like you need to cut or
mahcined SS? That's beyond my capabilities and tools that I own... ;-)

It is very interesting. Have you compare it with a Mini E?


nic



  
Date: 28 Dec 2006 18:53:57
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Nice Mod!
>> http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/Mazzer%20Mini%20single%20doser.jpg
>
> Wow, I guess (hope) you have already share with other what, how, what
> tools and how much to do this mod?!? Looks like you need to cut or
> mahcined SS? That's beyond my capabilities and tools that I own... ;-)
>
> It is very interesting. Have you compare it with a Mini E?

I've posted this picture once in awhile since I made it two years ago. Some
people think it is a doserless mod, but actually, it is a single-doser mod,
which I find to be more valuable. Before grinding just enough beans for a single
pull, the 'lollipop' is stuck ball first into the funnel. It acts as a stopper
so grounds collect in the funnel. When I'm ready I put the PF under the funnel,
lift the lollipop and dispense the grounds. The other end is used to scavenge
coffee from the grinder's chute. I like it alot since it means I can grind and
dispense exactly what I want and it is waiting for me while I'm doing something
else, like filling the milk pitcher, etc.

I found the SS funnel. The rest I did in my home shop. You can buy the ball
knob at any hardware store.

Dan



 
Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:15:22
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
In reference to 2 to $3K Espresso machines -- good point!

"Why should they need mods at all"

Indeed! why do they still have pressurestats??

a person is sending me her new $3K Elektra for a pid mod. you WOULD
think at that level one could be included!
Yes?

Dave
200 -- counting only the silvias 221 otherwise

nicfortin wrote:
> :-) I new I would get Mazzer and Macap owner angry with that post :-)
>
> What I wrote is a my opinion from 2 months of reading on grinder (CG,
> HB and alt-coffee) and I don't "trash" any grinder but manufacturers
> who get on the ket grinders and sell them with their PRO "brand"
> name. That's it.
>
> Another way to explain my point of view is :
> It's ok to mod/PID/etc a Sylvia it is an entry level with lot of room
> for improvements.
> Now if you buy a 2000-3000$ espresso machine I would expect to be great
> and not having to mod. or change a part for a better one unless you are
> a "gearhead". BUT unfortunately in our hobby (quest for the perfect
> Espresso) it is not like that (I've read forum on high-end machine
> talking about changing that part right out of the box because it's not
> good enough!).
> Why all that? Humm the ket is too small, not enough player
> (manufacturers) or ??? But the fact is still there: I think we have to
> pay too much for what we get...
> It would be very surprising to see a chinese copy of the Mini E price
> wise ;-)
>
> Please all the others MM owners I'm not bashing/trashing any grinder in
> particular.
> keep it cool ;-)



 
Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:11:06
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?

what mods are needed on the M grinders?? hmmm?

> Having
> your "holy" name on it doen't worth that much to me, I'm not shopping
> for a piece of Italian art! By design flaws I mean : Vertical setup,

gravity is still fairly reliable, last time I looked.

> motor (heat) below grinding unit.

Heat? how many pounds to you grind at one session?

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> Horizontal flat burr setup (conical
> make a little more sense for that setup but still). Ok guys time to
> re-think your design, give that old patent to the Chineses at least
> they will be able to put it on the ket for 50$ (or less) in which
> case I wouldn't mind buying some "flaws"...

> Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to
> their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
> The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for
> 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good
> quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much.
> Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking
> for their line of grinders!

> My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
> grinders that are worth 400-800$.

hmmm a well known coffee chain founded their business on Mazzers. Can
you name the chain?

> Don't get me wrong they do a good job
> but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
> (Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.

versaWHO?


Dave
200



 
Date: 28 Dec 2006 07:36:25
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
Given the small number of units they sell, I think Mazzer does very
well with the Mini at its current price point. I was a Rocky user for
years and just recently got a Mini E (after having my head cleared
about VL--thanks, guys). Although the price increment over the
"standard" Mini is pretty steep given nothing more than slightly
different burrs, a timer, and a glittery stainless steel cone, I must
confess that the improvement over the Rocky is apparent in the cup. I
have to admit that, after years of sneering about expensive toys for
grown up boys, I've become a MM convert.

But, hey, if'n ya don't think they're worth the money, don't buy one.



 
Date: 28 Dec 2006 14:24:53
From: RoughJaw
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:31:59 -0800, nicfortin wrote:

> Someone wrote " VersaWHO" I hope he is kidding ;-)
> Looks like he deleted his post... or there is some mysterious things in
> usenet group that I don't know. Which I wouldn't be surprised I'm
> fairly new to posting here. But that's OT !!

Yes, Dave deleted his post from google, as he often does when he
realizes he's wrong, but it's impossible to delete from usenet. Were you
using a real newsreader, you'd still see it (I'm including full headers
for archival purposes):

Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!postnews.google.com!48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <1167264493.796053.304130@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com >
From: "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com >
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
Date: 27 Dec 2006 16:08:13 -0800
References: <1167260524.809869.99750@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >
Lines: 50
Organization: http://groups.google.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 72.150.170.117
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1167264500 23656 127.0.0.1 (28 Dec 2006 00:08:20 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:08:20 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <1167260524.809869.99750@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >
User-Agent: G2/1.0
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Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
Injection-Info: 48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com; posting-host=72.150.170.117; posting-account=jsTQ7Q0AAADTAT1q9gDPaVpJ7ePZb1O5

nicfortin wrote:
> After reading on HB, CG and alt-coffee for 2 months and "shopping" for
> a quality grinder... Am I the only one who believe that Mazzer, Macap
> etc. are not listening?
> In the 400-800$ range all that I see is '50 design with some little new
> features.
> Do you expect us to be happy to pay 400-800$ for a device that still
> has the same'old design and flaws and having to tweak/mod it?

what mods are needed on the M grinders?? hmmm?

> Having
> your "holy" name on it doen't worth that much to me, I'm not shopping
> for a piece of Italian art! By design flaws I mean : Vertical setup,

gravity is still fairly reliable, last time I looked.

> motor (heat) below grinding unit.

Heat? how many pounds to you grind at one session?

> Horizontal flat burr setup (conical
> make a little more sense for that setup but still). Ok guys time to
> re-think your design, give that old patent to the Chineses at least
> they will be able to put it on the ket for 50$ (or less) in which
> case I wouldn't mind buying some "flaws"...
>
> Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to
> their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
> The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for
> 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good
> quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much.
> Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking
> for their line of grinders!
>
> My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
> grinders that are worth 400-800$.

hmmm a well known coffee chain founded their business on Mazzers. Can
you name the chain?

> Don't get me wrong they do a good job
> but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
> (Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.

versaWHO?

>
Dave
200

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 28 Dec 2006 06:46:16
From: shane
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
I have a Mazzer Mini and with the possible exception of removing the
fingerguard in the doser for cleaning purposes, I do not see where it
would need to be modified.

Shane

Barry Jarrett wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2006 22:11:27 -0800, "nicfortin" <otorot8@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Well I guess at some point it is inevitable to have to mod/tweak
> >before it does the job needed by the customer like with any industrial
> >product. It's too bad that we have to consider our hobby like my
> >industrial example, because the ket is too small to get affordable
> >devices...
>
> btw, considering my propensity for modifying equipment, it might come
> as a shock to learn that i've NEVER MODIFIED A MAZZER. i've never
> felt the urge to modify a mazzer.
>
> --barry "odd, that."



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 23:33:26
From: Paul Pratt
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?

nicfortin wrote:

> After reading on HB, CG and alt-coffee for 2 months and "shopping" for
> a quality grinder... Am I the only one who believe that Mazzer, Macap
> etc. are not listening?
> In the 400-800$ range all that I see is '50 design with some little new
> features.
> Do you expect us to be happy to pay 400-800$ for a device that still
> has the same'old design and flaws and having to tweak/mod it? Having
> your "holy" name on it doen't worth that much to me, I'm not shopping
> for a piece of Italian art! By design flaws I mean : Vertical setup,
> motor (heat) below grinding unit. Horizontal flat burr setup (conical
> make a little more sense for that setup but still). Ok guys time to
> re-think your design, give that old patent to the Chineses at least
> they will be able to put it on the ket for 50$ (or less) in which
> case I wouldn't mind buying some "flaws"...
>
> Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to
> their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
> The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for
> 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good
> quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much.
> Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking
> for their line of grinders!
>
> My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
> grinders that are worth 400-800$. Don't get me wrong they do a good job
> but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
> (Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.
>
> By the way I'm still shopping for a good grinder, any deal out there?
> ;-)
>
> nic

Nic, it seems to me from your post that you have trawled the forums and
picked up on various bits and pieces and lumped them all together
without actually having first hand experience. Not sure where you
get the idea that these grinders are flawed as these are commercial
grinders first and foremost. You can ask almost any commercial or high
end domestic machine seller and they will say that $800 on a mazzer is
a bargain, ultra reliability with great performance.

FWIW I picked up 2 new old stock DRM grinders earlier this year, sold
one and the other has been loaned. It was not the be all and end all
and for day to day use I still prefer a Mazzer.

Paul



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 22:11:27
From: nicfortin
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?


On Dec 27, 10:57 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2006 18:58:27 -0800, "nicfortin" <otor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Now if you buy a 2000-3000$ espresso machine I would expect to be great
> >and not having to mod. or change a part for a better one unless you are
> >a "gearhead".
>
> jeez, i've modified a $10,000 espresso machine.... does that make me
> a 'gearhead'?
>
> --barry "www.espressolab.com"

Well I guess at some point it is inevitable to have to mod/tweak
before it does the job needed by the customer like with any industrial
product. It's too bad that we have to consider our hobby like my
industrial example, because the ket is too small to get affordable
devices...

nic



  
Date: 28 Dec 2006 06:32:29
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
On 27 Dec 2006 22:11:27 -0800, "nicfortin" <otorot8@gmail.com > wrote:

>Well I guess at some point it is inevitable to have to mod/tweak
>before it does the job needed by the customer like with any industrial
>product. It's too bad that we have to consider our hobby like my
>industrial example, because the ket is too small to get affordable
>devices...

btw, considering my propensity for modifying equipment, it might come
as a shock to learn that i've NEVER MODIFIED A MAZZER. i've never
felt the urge to modify a mazzer.

--barry "odd, that."


   
Date: 28 Dec 2006 09:51:45
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
> btw, considering my propensity for modifying equipment, it might come
> as a shock to learn that i've NEVER MODIFIED A MAZZER. i've never
> felt the urge to modify a mazzer.

Clearly, some of us of stronger 'urges' than others. :) I converted my MM
from multi-doser to single-doser. Dan

http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/Mazzer%20Mini%20single%20doser.jpg



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 21:19:24
From: nicfortin
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?


On Dec 27, 8:26 pm, "gscace" <gregory.sc...@nist.gov > wrote:

Most of what I have read about pro grinders relates to doser /
> non-doser issues, and otherwise adapting pro gear to the home. The
> issue of motor heat doesn't apply to home use at all. It only applies
> to high volume cafes. I don't really share your view that current pro
> grinders (Mazzer and Cimbali are the ones I have experience with) are
> garbage. The Mazzers I've owned have been completely bulletproof and I
> don't have any issues with them for home use. I would like to see
> rethinking of grinds path out of the burrs with an eye toward more even
> distribution, but that work is actually being done right now. Won't be
> cheap though. And speaking as a person who produces a product on a
> small scale, I challenge you to substantially reduce the cost of a very
> robust piece of gear like the Mazzer grinders while maintaining the
> level of quality required to withstand more or less continuous use in
> a commercial environment.
>
> -Greg

I do agree with you Greg on the "small scale" thing. But for
manufacturer like mazzer they should be able to make them either
cheaper or get something out that will please alot more people.
I didn't say pro grinder (MM and others) are garbage by the way. Just
too expensive for a good elec. motor, quality burr set, nice casing and
a "far from being perfect" distributing device/setup. ;-)

nic



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 19:31:59
From: nicfortin
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
Someone wrote " VersaWHO" I hope he is kidding ;-)
Looks like he deleted his post... or there is some mysterious things in
usenet group that I don't know. Which I wouldn't be surprised I'm
fairly new to posting here. But that's OT !!

Let's stay focus on the quest for the perfect/cheapest home espress
grinder!

nic



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 19:26:14
From: gscace
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?

nicfortin wrote:
> :-) I new I would get Mazzer and Macap owner angry with that post :-)
>
> What I wrote is a my opinion from 2 months of reading on grinder (CG,
> HB and alt-coffee) and I don't "trash" any grinder but manufacturers
> who get on the ket grinders and sell them with their PRO "brand"
> name. That's it.
>
> Another way to explain my point of view is :
> It's ok to mod/PID/etc a Sylvia it is an entry level with lot of room
> for improvements.
> Now if you buy a 2000-3000$ espresso machine I would expect to be great
> and not having to mod. or change a part for a better one unless you are
> a "gearhead". BUT unfortunately in our hobby (quest for the perfect
> Espresso) it is not like that (I've read forum on high-end machine
> talking about changing that part right out of the box because it's not
> good enough!).
> Why all that? Humm the ket is too small, not enough player
> (manufacturers) or ??? But the fact is still there: I think we have to
> pay too much for what we get...
> It would be very surprising to see a chinese copy of the Mini E price
> wise ;-)
>
> Please all the others MM owners I'm not bashing/trashing any grinder in
> particular.
> keep it cool ;-)

Most of what I have read about pro grinders relates to doser /
non-doser issues, and otherwise adapting pro gear to the home. The
issue of motor heat doesn't apply to home use at all. It only applies
to high volume cafes. I don't really share your view that current pro
grinders (Mazzer and Cimbali are the ones I have experience with) are
garbage. The Mazzers I've owned have been completely bulletproof and I
don't have any issues with them for home use. I would like to see
rethinking of grinds path out of the burrs with an eye toward more even
distribution, but that work is actually being done right now. Won't be
cheap though. And speaking as a person who produces a product on a
small scale, I challenge you to substantially reduce the cost of a very
robust piece of gear like the Mazzer grinders while maintaining the
level of quality required to withstand more or less continuous use in
a commercial environment.

-Greg



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 19:24:02
From: razmoo
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
I kind of agree with nic in terms of grinders needing improvement.

I'm no engineer or whatever but surely if you pay upwards of $400 you
shouldnt have to do any common mods/workarounds.

My main gripe is with uneven distribution.. and clumps.



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 19:13:39
From: nicfortin
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?


On Dec 27, 6:56 pm, "Harry Moos" <har...@ruraltel.net > wrote:
> You are kidding, right. Kitchen Aid? Have you actually used one? There is
> a reason it is so often discounted.
>

Did I said "this is the Best Grinder" somewhere? What I've been reading
is not too bad specially the newer version (not the older super
discounted on eBay, Empire Red ;-). and you can get it for hundreds
less than those MM alike.
KA has room for improvement but it's already a damn good grinder for
the price from all the threads I've read on it.
I'm just saying Hey guys look what KA have put on the ket for waayyy
less than your product. And it ain't bad too, time to react no?

nic



 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 19:05:44
From: nicfortin
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?


On Dec 27, 6:52 pm, bernie <bdig...@zianet.com > wrote:
> Try turning out a commercial grinder for what you would pay. In terms
> of commercial equipment they are exceedingly small production runs. The
> certifications they are required to meet,CU, UL, NSF are very expensive
> and that is only for the USA. The company has to carry certifications
> for whatever country they are used in and that cost has to be accounted
> for somehow. Mazzer isn't designed or keted for the tiny home use
> ket. I'm guessing less than 1/100,000th of the coffee drinking
> households in the US would have a grinder like a Mazzer. Not the numbers
> to cause much effort for change at headquarters. Remember, these are pro
> machines. Expect to pay pro prices.
> Bernie (running a Jolly and Mini in my home)D.

Well if I pay PRo price I don't expect to read tons of threads talking
about how "my PRO device" would better with that change or this part.
That's my point of view.
See you own 2 Mazzer one Jolly (it has the most "mod" thread I've seen
for a PRO device) and a Mini one of the best home grinder but at what
price... Like I said give to the Chinese the blue print of the Mini
and let's see the price point they gonne come with. ;-)

If only our "Quest" would be share by billions... I guess we could find
a "Mazzer copycat" at Home Depot for 14.99$ ;-)

nic



  
Date: 28 Dec 2006 09:36:34
From: AG
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
In article <1167275144.417678.42040@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"nicfortin" <otorot8@gmail.com > wrote:

> See you own 2 Mazzer one Jolly (it has the most "mod" thread I've seen
> for a PRO device) and a Mini one of the best home grinder but at what
> price... Like I said give to the Chinese the blue print of the Mini
> and let's see the price point they gonne come with. ;-)

I don't know how much Chinese made equipment you have purchased recently.
The PRC is able to produce just about anything but the quality is mostly
not there (yet). When it comes to anything that requires tolerance you
better think twice before you "invest" in their products. If you want a
specific example look at rec.crafts.metalworking and read some comments
about old US made Atlas/Clausing machines vs the $#@^!* that comes from
the PRC.

Yes, I too shelled the $$ for the Mazzer and I would admit that it is not
perfect. However, if you compare its quality/price with that of Rocky I
think it represents a reasonable investment. When the times comes and
there is a real, not hypothetical lower cost alternative the people who
make the Mazzer may have to change their products/price.

AG


   
Date: 28 Dec 2006 11:49:04
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
In article <dot-2812060936340001@192.168.1.60 >, dot@dot.dot says...
> [...] When the times comes and
> there is a real, not hypothetical lower cost alternative the people who
> make the Mazzer may have to change their products/price.

...and country of manufacture.

--
-Mike


  
Date: 28 Dec 2006 05:53:45
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
On 27 Dec 2006 19:05:44 -0800, "nicfortin" <otorot8@gmail.com > wrote:

>Well if I pay PRo price I don't expect to read tons of threads talking
>about how "my PRO device" would better with that change or this part.
>That's my point of view.

there isn't a device made that someone, somewhere, hasn't wished it
were different, "better", somehow.

mazzers are very well made for their purpose. the fact that a handful
of overly particular <out-of-the-intended-ket > customers want to
tweak them shouldn't be held against them. are they perfect? nope.
but they're pretty darned good.

i'd love to have a clean, quiet, vertical drop conical burr grinder
with mass dosing and automatic adjustable tamping for under $200, but
i'm not holding my breath.

--barry "it's hard to complain when my last mazzer only cost $75"


 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 18:58:27
From: nicfortin
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
:-) I new I would get Mazzer and Macap owner angry with that post :-)

What I wrote is a my opinion from 2 months of reading on grinder (CG,
HB and alt-coffee) and I don't "trash" any grinder but manufacturers
who get on the ket grinders and sell them with their PRO "brand"
name. That's it.

Another way to explain my point of view is :
It's ok to mod/PID/etc a Sylvia it is an entry level with lot of room
for improvements.
Now if you buy a 2000-3000$ espresso machine I would expect to be great
and not having to mod. or change a part for a better one unless you are
a "gearhead". BUT unfortunately in our hobby (quest for the perfect
Espresso) it is not like that (I've read forum on high-end machine
talking about changing that part right out of the box because it's not
good enough!).
Why all that? Humm the ket is too small, not enough player
(manufacturers) or ??? But the fact is still there: I think we have to
pay too much for what we get...
It would be very surprising to see a chinese copy of the Mini E price
wise ;-)

Please all the others MM owners I'm not bashing/trashing any grinder in
particular.
keep it cool ;-)



  
Date: 28 Dec 2006 05:57:21
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
On 27 Dec 2006 18:58:27 -0800, "nicfortin" <otorot8@gmail.com > wrote:

>Now if you buy a 2000-3000$ espresso machine I would expect to be great
>and not having to mod. or change a part for a better one unless you are
>a "gearhead".

jeez, i've modified a $10,000 espresso machine.... does that make me
a 'gearhead'?


--barry "www.espressolab.com"


 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 19:56:59
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
You are kidding, right. Kitchen Aid? Have you actually used one? There is
a reason it is so often discounted.

"nicfortin" <otorot8@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167260524.809869.99750@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to
> their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
> The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for
> 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good
> quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much.
> Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking
> for their line of grinders!
>
> My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
> grinders that are worth 400-800$. Don't get me wrong they do a good job
> but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
> (Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.
>
> By the way I'm still shopping for a good grinder, any deal out there?
> ;-)
>
> nic
>




 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 18:52:10
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?
nicfortin wrote:

> My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
> grinders that are worth 400-800$. Don't get me wrong they do a good job
> but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
> (Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.
>
> By the way I'm still shopping for a good grinder, any deal out there?
> ;-)
>
> nic
>

Try turning out a commercial grinder for what you would pay. In terms
of commercial equipment they are exceedingly small production runs. The
certifications they are required to meet,CU, UL, NSF are very expensive
and that is only for the USA. The company has to carry certifications
for whatever country they are used in and that cost has to be accounted
for somehow. Mazzer isn't designed or keted for the tiny home use
ket. I'm guessing less than 1/100,000th of the coffee drinking
households in the US would have a grinder like a Mazzer. Not the numbers
to cause much effort for change at headquarters. Remember, these are pro
machines. Expect to pay pro prices.
Bernie (running a Jolly and Mini in my home)D.


 
Date: 27 Dec 2006 16:08:13
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Grinder Manufacturers : Hello! Anyone is listening?!?

nicfortin wrote:
> After reading on HB, CG and alt-coffee for 2 months and "shopping" for
> a quality grinder... Am I the only one who believe that Mazzer, Macap
> etc. are not listening?
> In the 400-800$ range all that I see is '50 design with some little new
> features.
> Do you expect us to be happy to pay 400-800$ for a device that still
> has the same'old design and flaws and having to tweak/mod it?

what mods are needed on the M grinders?? hmmm?
Having
> your "holy" name on it doen't worth that much to me, I'm not shopping
> for a piece of Italian art! By design flaws I mean : Vertical setup,

gravity is still fairly reliable, last time I looked.

> motor (heat) below grinding unit.
Heat? how many pounds to you grind at one session?

Horizontal flat burr setup (conical
> make a little more sense for that setup but still). Ok guys time to
> re-think your design, give that old patent to the Chineses at least
> they will be able to put it on the ket for 50$ (or less) in which
> case I wouldn't mind buying some "flaws"...
>
> Let's look at a fairly good unit from a company that seems to listen to
> their customers. (that is what I get from lots of forum threads)
> The KA Proline (sugg. retail 299.99 but you can easily find it for
> 150.00) all you need now (listen KA) is a stepless knob and a good
> quality burr. And I'm pretty sure that won't rise the price that much.
> Well at least not even close to what the Italian connection is asking
> for their line of grinders!
>
> My point is I don't believe Mazzer, Macap and alike are offering
> grinders that are worth 400-800$.

hmmm a well known coffee chain founded their business on Mazzers. Can
you name the chain?

Don't get me wrong they do a good job
> but hey the technology/knowledge for better grinder is out there
> (Versalab). Make it afordable and listen to your customer.

versaWHO?

>
Dave
200