coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main
Date: 31 Dec 2006 08:39:18
From: Godzilla
Subject: HEB espresso
Yesterday, while shopping in the largest superket chain in Texas, I was
somewhat surprised to see the deli manager making an "Espresso-type"
beverage on a multi-group Cimballi machine. After she extracted the brown
liquid into a large paper cup, she then squirted a load of imitation
whipped cream from a pressurized can on top and finally garnished it with
a ring of chocolate syrup from another dispenser. I was expecting a
aschino cherry to be put on top, but that was where she stopped short.;-)

I asked if this was a new machine, and she answered that it was. She said
that she liked their old machine (un-named) better, but it was constantly
breaking down and needing repair.

After going home and pulling myself a very decent plain single shot,
I reminded myself that Charles Schulz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks
became a Billionaire by correctly surmising that Americans would rather
pay large amounts of money for "Candy" type beverages than drink espresso.

Godzilla




 
Date: 01 Jan 2007 17:37:16
From: Felix
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
Omniryx@gmail.com writes:
> Barry Jarrett wrote:
> > the one that first came to mind was george howell and
> > the coffee connection in boston.
>
> Whose timid roasting proclivities didn't keep him in the
> retail business in Cambridge.
>
> I say that without rancour. I drank many a cup there.

Timid roasting proclivities? Que??

When I discussed roasting with Boston area roasters, they'd alternate
between the high road of preserving varietal character and the low road
of satisfying demand. Shortly before selling CC, Howell launched a
Vienna roast line that still elicits sighs from Cantabrigians.
Sometimes, I wonder if CC would still be here if more people had bought
that coffee. It was too light for the people who equated darkness with
quality, and too dark for (almost) everyone else.

I remember buying my first macchiato at his tiny Coolidge Corner cafe,
walking to the T, the way the sun shined that afternoon ...


Felix



 
Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:33:47
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: HEB espresso

Barry Jarrett wrote:
> the one that first came to mind was george howell and the coffee
> connection in boston.

Whose timid roasting proclivities didn't keep him in the retail
business in Cambridge.

I say that without rancour. I drank many a cup there.



 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 10:18:13
From: daveb
Subject: Re: HEB espresso -- crap?
AND if the stuff IS CRAP -- demand a refund!

how else will they learn?

dave



 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 13:08:53
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
Howard, not Charles
Schultz, not Schulz

Not the founder of Starbucks. He first went to work for the founders of the
company and then later bought them out. Like Kroc of McDonalds, he first
encountered them as a successful customer while he was a salesman selling
something to them (Hammerplast coffee makers in the case of Schultz,
milkshake machines in the case of Kroc, IIRC). It's no accident that both
Kroc and Schultz were successful salesmen before they bought businesses
founded by others and took them to a new level.

His real insight was that Americans wanted a place to sit down, unlike say
McDonalds where even if they provide seating they make it purposely
uncomfortable so you'll leave as quickly as possible. Really what he served
there was secondary. He roasted the coffee dark so that it would have an
identifiable "signature" taste which could be associated thru keting with
"European sophistication". If the traditional American roast had been dark,
he probably would have picked a light roast - the point was to be different
in an identifiable and (then) unique way. Of course he couldn't have sold
straight shots they way they really do in Italy - this was an American
fantasy of Euro sophistication, not the real thing, so he added lots and
lots of milk to create the "latte", a drink associated in Italy with
children and the infirm elderly. I guess all the lactose was not enough for
the American sweet tooth so the syrups and whipped cream etc. were also
added. But really the coffee was incidental to the whole experience, though
the addictive and stimulating properties of caffeine certainly help. If
Schultz had fixed on say the chai latte as his signature beverage, he might
have done just as well.






"Godzilla" <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote in message
news:5e980$4597bd86$cf9b1316$21403@ALLTEL.NET...
> Yesterday, while shopping in the largest superket chain in Texas, I was
> somewhat surprised to see the deli manager making an "Espresso-type"
> beverage on a multi-group Cimballi machine. After she extracted the brown
> liquid into a large paper cup, she then squirted a load of imitation
> whipped cream from a pressurized can on top and finally garnished it with
> a ring of chocolate syrup from another dispenser. I was expecting a
> aschino cherry to be put on top, but that was where she stopped
> short.;-)
>
> I asked if this was a new machine, and she answered that it was. She said
> that she liked their old machine (un-named) better, but it was constantly
> breaking down and needing repair.
>
> After going home and pulling myself a very decent plain single shot,
> I reminded myself that Charles Schulz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks
> became a Billionaire by correctly surmising that Americans would rather
> pay large amounts of money for "Candy" type beverages than drink espresso.
>
> Godzilla




  
Date: 01 Jan 2007 12:22:18
From: Godzilla
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
Jack Denver wrote:

> Howard, not Charles
> Schultz, not Schulz
>
> Not the founder of Starbucks. He first went to work for the founders of
> the company and then later bought them out. Like Kroc of McDonalds, he
> first encountered them as a successful customer while he was a salesman
> selling something to them (Hammerplast coffee makers in the case of
> Schultz, milkshake machines in the case of Kroc, IIRC). It's no accident
> that both Kroc and Schultz were successful salesmen before they bought
> businesses founded by others and took them to a new level.
>
> His real insight was that Americans wanted a place to sit down, unlike say
> McDonalds where even if they provide seating they make it purposely
> uncomfortable so you'll leave as quickly as possible. Really what he
> served there was secondary. He roasted the coffee dark so that it would
> have an identifiable "signature" taste which could be associated thru
> keting with "European sophistication". If the traditional American
> roast had been dark, he probably would have picked a light roast - the
> point was to be different
> in an identifiable and (then) unique way. Of course he couldn't have sold
> straight shots they way they really do in Italy - this was an American
> fantasy of Euro sophistication, not the real thing, so he added lots and
> lots of milk to create the "latte", a drink associated in Italy with
> children and the infirm elderly. I guess all the lactose was not enough
> for the American sweet tooth so the syrups and whipped cream etc. were
> also added. But really the coffee was incidental to the whole experience,
> though
> the addictive and stimulating properties of caffeine certainly help. If
> Schultz had fixed on say the chai latte as his signature beverage, he
> might have done just as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Godzilla" <godzilla@monsters.org> wrote in message
> news:5e980$4597bd86$cf9b1316$21403@ALLTEL.NET...
>> Yesterday, while shopping in the largest superket chain in Texas, I
>> was somewhat surprised to see the deli manager making an "Espresso-type"
>> beverage on a multi-group Cimballi machine. After she extracted the brown
>> liquid into a large paper cup, she then squirted a load of imitation
>> whipped cream from a pressurized can on top and finally garnished it with
>> a ring of chocolate syrup from another dispenser. I was expecting a
>> aschino cherry to be put on top, but that was where she stopped
>> short.;-)
>>
>> I asked if this was a new machine, and she answered that it was. She said
>> that she liked their old machine (un-named) better, but it was constantly
>> breaking down and needing repair.
>>
>> After going home and pulling myself a very decent plain single shot,
>> I reminded myself that Charles Schulz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks
>> became a Billionaire by correctly surmising that Americans would rather
>> pay large amounts of money for "Candy" type beverages than drink
>> espresso.
>>
>> Godzilla

Thank you for correcting my spelling. Uhs Texuns iz knowd fur spellin thangs
funi. However, I must respectfully disagree as to your interpretation of
why $Bucks roasts every coffee to the same degree of darkness. First of
all, it takes training and experience to determine an optimum roast level
for each individual coffee. Each type and batch of coffee has distinct
characteristics. A master roaster will make a series of sample roasts and
choose the best one based upon cupping trials. It is far, far less
expensive to set a roaster to one point and keep it there for everything.
That way, minimum wage employees need only to dump the beans in, press a
button, and dump the beans out when the bell rings.

Second reason: If you are going to paint a wall, which will conceal defects
better, a light colored paint or a dark colored paint? The same applies to
coffee beans. As long as you can merchandise something so well to customers
who have been seduced into paying premium prices for your product, the more
faults that can be hidden the better. Shultzi (sic) is a master huckster.
One has to admire that. The same does not apply to his products.

Godzilla


   
Date: 01 Jan 2007 13:47:50
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
As shall alluded to, the original (pre-Schultz) reason Starbucks roasted
dark was a matter of roasting philosophy - they came from the school of Peet
and were dark roast believers. Schultz kept it for what I'm guessing were
keting reasons- the dark roast fit in well with his keting plan, which
was to give Starbucks an immediately recognizable "signature" identity -
the hallk of any successful brand, and one that could be pitched as
"European sophistication".

Starbucks has plenty of money to hire (and does hire) skilled roasters -
it's not a matter of button pushing and in fact requires some skill to get
various coffees that roast at various speeds all to the same point. Nor are
they known for cheaping on their beans. Again, if you are selling a cup of
coffee for $3.00, there's no need to cheap on the beans, there's lots of
profit in there already. But the dark roast fits in with their intended
"image" and was distinctive from the traditional light roast served by DD
and others. As I said before, if (in the Schultz era) a light roast fit the
keting scheme better , I don't think Schultz would have hesitated to go
for a light roast even if it required a little extra on the cost side. *$
didn't make its money by pinching pennies on the cost side - it was
Schultz's insight (when everyone else thought "how are you going to get
people to pay more when any diner in America will sell you a cup of coffee
for 60 cents") that people would pay for the right "experience" and
"lifestyle". Every cafe and roaster in America should thank Schultz for
breaking that mentality - up until him, it was a race to the bottom, with
Folgers and Maxwell House competing on who could put out a can that could
sell for 99 cents on sale, even if it meant that the can had to be filled
with trash and weighed less every year.


"Godzilla" <Godzilla@monsters.org > wrote in message
news:b7137$45995129$cf9b1316$3534@ALLTEL.NET...
>>>
>>> Godzilla
>
> Thank you for correcting my spelling. Uhs Texuns iz knowd fur spellin
> thangs
> funi. However, I must respectfully disagree as to your interpretation of
> why $Bucks roasts every coffee to the same degree of darkness. First of
> all, it takes training and experience to determine an optimum roast level
> for each individual coffee. Each type and batch of coffee has distinct
> characteristics. A master roaster will make a series of sample roasts and
> choose the best one based upon cupping trials. It is far, far less
> expensive to set a roaster to one point and keep it there for everything.
> That way, minimum wage employees need only to dump the beans in, press a
> button, and dump the beans out when the bell rings.
>
> Second reason: If you are going to paint a wall, which will conceal
> defects
> better, a light colored paint or a dark colored paint? The same applies to
> coffee beans. As long as you can merchandise something so well to
> customers
> who have been seduced into paying premium prices for your product, the
> more
> faults that can be hidden the better. Shultzi (sic) is a master huckster.
> One has to admire that. The same does not apply to his products.
>
> Godzilla




    
Date: 01 Jan 2007 18:58:37
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 13:47:50 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>"lifestyle". Every cafe and roaster in America should thank Schultz for
>breaking that mentality - up until him, it was a race to the bottom, with
>Folgers and Maxwell House competing on who could put out a can that could
>sell for 99 cents on sale, even if it meant that the can had to be filled
>with trash and weighed less every year.
>


painted with an exceptionally broad brush. there were plenty of
regional roasters & retailers pushing for quality before howard ever
came along. starbies rode the wave; they didn't make the wave.



     
Date: 01 Jan 2007 14:20:51
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
I was thinking more about the "by the cup" ket. Yes, there were a few
cafes that served espresso and cappuccino at prices higher than you'd pay
for a cup of brewed coffee but these were mostly in big older cities and
below the radar of most Americans. Maybe a few of the specialty roasters
whom you mention did some in-store coffee service too but again their names
were not exactly tripping from the lips of the average person - these were
semi-secret places known to local yuppie types. Obviously *$ did not invent
specialty coffee but they sure as hell raised its profile and brought it to
a broader ket. As much as they are your competition, I think you have to
thank them for doing so. Nowadays my cleaning lady from the ghetto of West
Philadelphia talks about going to Starbucks and buying a $3.00 cup of
coffee. If Howard Schultz had been hit by a trolley car in 1980 I'm not
sure she would have ever bought into that idea.





"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:31mip2t0mt0p03b1i2q3kh98356pt1ib6h@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 13:47:50 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >"lifestyle". Every cafe and roaster in America should thank Schultz for
> >breaking that mentality - up until him, it was a race to the bottom, with
> >Folgers and Maxwell House competing on who could put out a can that could
> >sell for 99 cents on sale, even if it meant that the can had to be filled
> >with trash and weighed less every year.
> >
>
>
> painted with an exceptionally broad brush. there were plenty of
> regional roasters & retailers pushing for quality before howard ever
> came along. starbies rode the wave; they didn't make the wave.
>




      
Date: 01 Jan 2007 22:30:18
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:20:51 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>I was thinking more about the "by the cup" ket. Yes, there were a few
>cafes that served espresso and cappuccino at prices higher than you'd pay
>for a cup of brewed coffee but these were mostly in big older cities and
>below the radar of most Americans.

the one that first came to mind was george howell and the coffee
connection in boston.



  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 19:09:35
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:08:53 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

> He roasted the coffee dark so that it would have an
>identifiable "signature" taste which could be associated thru keting with
>"European sophistication". If the traditional American roast had been dark,
>he probably would have picked a light roast - the point was to be different
>in an identifiable and (then) unique way.

Although much of the rest of your post was right, this was seriously
wrong. As our departed Maddy might have said, "wrong, wrong, wrong,
wrongedy, wrong." It dismisses both Alfred Peet and is an indirect
insult to Jim Reynolds (with whom I have discussed this issue, not to
drop names or anything).

Alfred Peet dark roasted in Indonesia, dark roasted in Berkeley, and
taught his Starbucks-founding (later Peets buying) acolytes to roast
dark and love it. You can disagree with their taste, claim the roast
quality has declined since Howard took over, but there is no basis to
claim they chose dark roasting as a keting decision.

shall



   
Date: 31 Dec 2006 17:03:29
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
I don't doubt that for Peet, Reynolds, et al. dark roasting was a matter of
religious conviction or whatever, but I really doubt that Schultz had any
real convictions on this other than he observed that this dark roast stuff
was selling real good and it fit in with his vision of a faux-Italian cafe.
This was a man that sold plastics in his last job. The dark roast was
already there when he came to Starbucks and he kept it because it worked for
his purposes. Schultz would not have hesitated to discard it if he felt
there was better keting value in some other roast.

With all respect to Reynolds, his vision thing extended only as far as being
a real nice shop roaster in the Seattle area. This is why he has millions
and Schultz has billions. Reynolds is the better coffee man, Schultz the
better business man.



"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:b12gp2h1o6ga8s9i9cutphcq7bgnvd8gf5@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:08:53 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> He roasted the coffee dark so that it would have an
>>identifiable "signature" taste which could be associated thru keting
>>with
>>"European sophistication". If the traditional American roast had been
>>dark,
>>he probably would have picked a light roast - the point was to be
>>different
>>in an identifiable and (then) unique way.
>
> Although much of the rest of your post was right, this was seriously
> wrong. As our departed Maddy might have said, "wrong, wrong, wrong,
> wrongedy, wrong." It dismisses both Alfred Peet and is an indirect
> insult to Jim Reynolds (with whom I have discussed this issue, not to
> drop names or anything).
>
> Alfred Peet dark roasted in Indonesia, dark roasted in Berkeley, and
> taught his Starbucks-founding (later Peets buying) acolytes to roast
> dark and love it. You can disagree with their taste, claim the roast
> quality has declined since Howard took over, but there is no basis to
> claim they chose dark roasting as a keting decision.
>
> shall
>




    
Date: 01 Jan 2007 20:05:24
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 17:03:29 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>I don't doubt that for Peet, Reynolds, et al. dark roasting was a matter of
>religious conviction or whatever, but I really doubt that Schultz had any

>With all respect to Reynolds, his vision thing extended only as far as being
>a real nice shop roaster in the Seattle area. This is why he has millions
>and Schultz has billions. Reynolds is the better coffee man, Schultz the
>better business man.

Actually the head roaster for Peets (based in the Bay Area) until his
recent semi-retirement. Not exactly a "shop roaster."

shall


     
Date: 01 Jan 2007 17:25:30
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
According to Wikipedia,

"As of 2006-06, Peet's [has] a ket cap of roughly $393M compared to
Starbucks's roughly $28B." In other words, they aren't even a pimple on
Starbucks *ss.

The point was really that Schultz took his proposal to expand Starbucks when
he was still their employee to the founders, and they told him that they
didn't want to be "in the restaurant business". So Schultz ended up buying
them out instead, and the rest is history, as they say. They took their
Starbucks money and Reynolds with them to Peets (and in the end, ended up in
the coffee by the drink business anyway).


"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:t7qip2dokcps3djr9ktknviahek62jud0h@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 17:03:29 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>I don't doubt that for Peet, Reynolds, et al. dark roasting was a matter
>>of
>>religious conviction or whatever, but I really doubt that Schultz had any
>
>>With all respect to Reynolds, his vision thing extended only as far as
>>being
>>a real nice shop roaster in the Seattle area. This is why he has millions
>>and Schultz has billions. Reynolds is the better coffee man, Schultz the
>>better business man.
>
> Actually the head roaster for Peets (based in the Bay Area) until his
> recent semi-retirement. Not exactly a "shop roaster."
>
> shall




 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 09:46:38
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
The same thing happens at Whole Foods. I don't know whether to feel
disdainful, superior, or thankful for their efforts. The first two are
self-explanatory & the third (thankful) is because at least these
places are beginning to break the association of espresso drinks with
Starbucks. More exposure leads to higher consumer expectations & this
will (eventually?) lead to good shots being the norm rather than the
exception.

Robert (If you don't try it how do you know if it's crap or not?)
Harmon

Godzilla wrote:
> Yesterday, while shopping in the largest superket chain in Texas, I was
> somewhat surprised to see the deli manager making an "Espresso-type"
> beverage on a multi-group Cimballi machine. After she extracted the brown
> liquid into a large paper cup, she then squirted a load of imitation
> whipped cream from a pressurized can on top and finally garnished it with
> a ring of chocolate syrup from another dispenser. I was expecting a
> aschino cherry to be put on top, but that was where she stopped short.;-)
>
> I asked if this was a new machine, and she answered that it was. She said
> that she liked their old machine (un-named) better, but it was constantly
> breaking down and needing repair.
>
> After going home and pulling myself a very decent plain single shot,
> I reminded myself that Charles Schulz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks
> became a Billionaire by correctly surmising that Americans would rather
> pay large amounts of money for "Candy" type beverages than drink espresso.
>
> Godzilla



 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 14:15:22
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:39:18 -0500, Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org >
wrote:

>After going home and pulling myself a very decent plain single shot,
>I reminded myself that Charles Schulz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks
>became a Billionaire by correctly surmising that Americans would rather
>pay large amounts of money for "Candy" type beverages than drink espresso.
>
>Godzilla

It was Snoopy's favorite drink.

shall


  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 10:07:44
From: sprsso
Subject: Re: HEB espresso
heh, heh....al


On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:15:22 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:39:18 -0500, Godzilla <godzilla@monsters.org>
>wrote:
>
>>After going home and pulling myself a very decent plain single shot,
>>I reminded myself that Charles Schulz, the founder and CEO of Starbucks
>>became a Billionaire by correctly surmising that Americans would rather
>>pay large amounts of money for "Candy" type beverages than drink espresso.
>>
>>Godzilla
>
>It was Snoopy's favorite drink.
>
>shall