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Date: 13 Jun 2007 18:10:29
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
During our vacation an idea was broached by a fellow fisherman. As usual we
were grouped around the bottle, solving the world's problems (if only they'd
listen to us!) & swapping war stories when one of my friends asked how much
noodling it would take to figure out how to take a pump like the one in the
Coleman lantern we had hanging from the mast & use it to pressurize the
upper bowl of a vac pot?

His reasoning went like this; the greatest problem with using a vac pot is
that it's difficult to get the coffee back down into the lower pot. We've
discussed different ways to deal with this - just do a search & you'll get
lots of hits here & on CG - but to be honest everyone I know who uses a vac
pot occasionally ends up with a less than full release. {;-)

The four of us sat there, sipping our libations, & hatched the following
scenario.
* Prepare the pot as usual.
* Let the brew process proceed until all the water is in the top bowl.
* After the coffee has steeped use a small Coleman-type pump to introduce a
positive pressure into the top bowl.
* This positive pressure plus the negative pressure in the bottom bowl
should result in a completely empty upper bowl.

Seems like cheating to me but I'll reserve judgment until I see it in
action. Right now he's off searching for someone to fill his needs
(psychiatrist?), a top to seal the upper bowl & a pump.

What do you believe the results will be?

--
Robert Harmon
--
My coffee pages. - http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj

My 'Guidelines For Newbies' - http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87

Gaggia Classic; a great machine! - http://www.tinyurl.com/2enxjo

Nuova Simonelli Mac & grinder price cut! - http://www.tinyurl.com/2aogu2






 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 18:08:54
From: cschepers
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
Robert Harmon wrote:
> During our vacation an idea was broached by a fellow fisherman. As usual we
> were grouped around the bottle, solving the world's problems (if only they'd
> listen to us!) & swapping war stories when one of my friends asked how much
> noodling it would take to figure out how to take a pump like the one in the
> Coleman lantern we had hanging from the mast & use it to pressurize the
> upper bowl of a vac pot?
>
> His reasoning went like this; the greatest problem with using a vac pot is
> that it's difficult to get the coffee back down into the lower pot. We've
> discussed different ways to deal with this - just do a search & you'll get
> lots of hits here & on CG - but to be honest everyone I know who uses a vac
> pot occasionally ends up with a less than full release. {;-)
>
> The four of us sat there, sipping our libations, & hatched the following
> scenario.
> * Prepare the pot as usual.
> * Let the brew process proceed until all the water is in the top bowl.
> * After the coffee has steeped use a small Coleman-type pump to introduce a
> positive pressure into the top bowl.
> * This positive pressure plus the negative pressure in the bottom bowl
> should result in a completely empty upper bowl.
>
> Seems like cheating to me but I'll reserve judgment until I see it in
> action. Right now he's off searching for someone to fill his needs
> (psychiatrist?), a top to seal the upper bowl & a pump.
>
> What do you believe the results will be?

Just make sure to use a metal vac pot, such as a Nicro. Mine likes to
stall on the way down, but a pump might still be a bit of overkill...
good luck, and don't hurt yourself!

chris

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 12:20:56
From: shane
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
On Jun 15, 11:13 am, EskWI...@spamblock.panix.com wrote:
> In alt.coffee, shane <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't the failure of the vacuum pot to produce a vacuum sufficient
> > to cause the coffee to move south be a product of the failure of the
> > seal between the two pots?
>
> Not necessarily. The seal could be adequete, but the filter could be
> clogged with dust. That is the only reason I have ever seen for a stall.
>
> When it happens, I clean my grinder, and the process goes smoothly
> afterwards.
>
> I have heard of poor-quality, modern vac-pots actually imploding due to a
> stall. This is not possible with a poor seal.
>
> --
> The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
> certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
> -- Bertrand Russel

If an implosion is a possibility, that the flaw would lie with getting
the proper filter. I have only used a Cory glass rod in a vac pot and
not an actual filter.

Shane



  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 21:46:23
From:
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
In alt.coffee, shane <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote:
> >
> > I have heard of poor-quality, modern vac-pots actually imploding due to a
> > stall. This is not possible with a poor seal.

> If an implosion is a possibility, that the flaw would lie with getting
> the proper filter. I have only used a Cory glass rod in a vac pot and
> not an actual filter.

I've used a bunch of different filters, from gauze pads (which work great
in the right holder, but are difficult to clean) to the circa-1938 Silex
cloth filters, to a ceramic "Dutch Filter", paper vac-pot filters and, of
course, the Cory Rod.

The Cory rod is my favorite day-in, day-out filter. But any of them will
clog if the grind contains excessive fines.

And do vac pots REALLY implode? Anyone ever seen one do it?

--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel



 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 08:44:45
From: shane
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
On Jun 15, 6:26 am, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
> Robert Harmon <r_h_har...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>


  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 17:59:12
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
With a vacuum system the maximum pressure differential is 1 bar (1 bar of
atmos. vs. 0 bar IF you could get a perfect vacuum). We know that with
certain filters and grind levels, 1 bar is not sufficient pressure to force
the water thru (thus the stall) and that higher pressures may result in a
richer cup. So, in theory this idea has some modicum of value.

BUT, we already have plenty of pressure brewing methods (moka, espresso).
And, if you are having stall problems with a vac pot, the solution is to fix
the cause of the stall (improper grind, poor neck seal) not to brute force
the coffee down with a pump. Given the difficulty of achieving the seal at
the neck it seems to me the last thing you want is to add another seal
problem at the top as well, especially since vac pots were never designed
to seal at the top of the upper bowl and have no provision for threads,
bayonet fittings, etc. Something like a giant cork or rubber stopper is
likely to blow out or leak as soon as you start to pressurize the upper
bowl.



"shane" <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1181922285.590571.78600@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 15, 6:26 am, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>> Robert Harmon <r_h_har...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>


   
Date: 15 Jun 2007 22:56:39
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
Howdy Jack! ;)

Yeah, yeah, yeah - in a perfect world everything works just the way it was
designed, every time & without fail.

What this idea proposed was a fix for those times when the bad coffee
gremlins crept into the dining room - remember that some only use their vac
pots for dinners when; 1) they have folks over who don't enjoy espresso
drinks, & 2) when they feel like showing off their toys.

And what happened the last time the church deacons had cocktails & coffee at
my friends? Yep, he pulled out the Silex, ground some beans, & proceeded to
brew a perfect half pot of coffee. *VERY* embarrassing. That's what prompted
the tipsy conversation in the first place; not a way to make the machine
idiot proof (although that could be useful for some of you) but a way to
wipe the egg off our faces when the inevitable happens.

Keep the faith, bro!
--
Robert (Damned near perfect - missed by just thaaat much.)Harmon
--
My coffee pages. - http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj

My 'Guidelines For Newbies' - http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87

Gaggia Classic; a great machine! - http://www.tinyurl.com/2enxjo

Nuova Simonelli Mac & grinder price cut! - http://www.tinyurl.com/2aogu2
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:4oGdnWIRS7gtlu7bnZ2dnUVZ_sSmnZ2d@comcast.com...
> With a vacuum system the maximum pressure differential is 1 bar (1 bar of
> atmos. vs. 0 bar IF you could get a perfect vacuum). We know that with
> certain filters and grind levels, 1 bar is not sufficient pressure to
> force the water thru (thus the stall) and that higher pressures may
> result in a richer cup. So, in theory this idea has some modicum of
> value.
>
> BUT, we already have plenty of pressure brewing methods (moka, espresso).
> And, if you are having stall problems with a vac pot, the solution is to
> fix the cause of the stall (improper grind, poor neck seal) not to brute
> force the coffee down with a pump. Given the difficulty of achieving the
> seal at the neck it seems to me the last thing you want is to add another
> seal problem at the top as well, especially since vac pots were never
> designed to seal at the top of the upper bowl and have no provision for
> threads, bayonet fittings, etc. Something like a giant cork or rubber
> stopper is likely to blow out or leak as soon as you start to pressurize
> the upper bowl.
>
>
>
> "shane" <shane.olson@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1181922285.590571.78600@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 15, 6:26 am, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>>> Robert Harmon <r_h_har...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>


    
Date: 16 Jun 2007 08:08:58
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
Alcohol has been known to inspire musicians and artists to greatness but
engineers?

R "I dunno" TF

Robert Harmon wrote:
> Howdy Jack! ;)
>
> Yeah, yeah, yeah - in a perfect world everything works just the way it was
> designed, every time & without fail.
>
> What this idea proposed was a fix for those times when the bad coffee
> gremlins crept into the dining room - remember that some only use their vac
> pots for dinners when; 1) they have folks over who don't enjoy espresso
> drinks, & 2) when they feel like showing off their toys.
>
> And what happened the last time the church deacons had cocktails & coffee at
> my friends? Yep, he pulled out the Silex, ground some beans, & proceeded to
> brew a perfect half pot of coffee. *VERY* embarrassing. That's what prompted
> the tipsy conversation in the first place; not a way to make the machine
> idiot proof (although that could be useful for some of you) but a way to
> wipe the egg off our faces when the inevitable happens.
>
> Keep the faith, bro!


     
Date: 16 Jun 2007 14:45:40
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
One day I may write a book about the brain storming sessions at NASA during
the Mercury - Apollo era. They're too anal now, all the fun is gone -
replaced by fear of failure. {:-


  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 16:13:43
From:
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
In alt.coffee, shane <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote:

> Wouldn't the failure of the vacuum pot to produce a vacuum sufficient
> to cause the coffee to move south be a product of the failure of the
> seal between the two pots?

Not necessarily. The seal could be adequete, but the filter could be
clogged with dust. That is the only reason I have ever seen for a stall.

When it happens, I clean my grinder, and the process goes smoothly
afterwards.

I have heard of poor-quality, modern vac-pots actually imploding due to a
stall. This is not possible with a poor seal.

--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel



 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 20:46:23
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:10:29 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>During our vacation an idea was broached by a fellow fisherman. As usual we
>were grouped around the bottle, solving the world's problems (if only they'd
>listen to us!) & swapping war stories when one of my friends asked how much
>noodling it would take to figure out how to take a pump like the one in the
>Coleman lantern we had hanging from the mast & use it to pressurize the
>upper bowl of a vac pot?

Glad to see some people are getting a head start on this year's Darwin
award. Why are you assuming the upper bowls are designed to withstand
pressure? What will happen, if they aren't?

The guaranteed solution to this "problem" is making sure the gasket is
functional and firmly in place.

Marshall


  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 18:08:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding

"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:v1a373psp8bv64p1js4ov26r34uqma3aoe@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:10:29 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
> <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Glad to see some people are getting a head start on this year's Darwin
> award. Why are you assuming the upper bowls are designed to withstand
> pressure? What will happen, if they aren't?

Chances are no bang - it would just crack along some stress line or weak
point - maybe where the stem joins the bowl. If you were unlucky, it would
spray hot liquid in your face thru the opening. You don't really stand much
of a chance of getting much pressure going anyway because there's no good
way to seal the top of the bowl - anything like a giant cork or stopper for
the top will just tend to blow itself out the top or leak as soon as you get
any pressure going.




 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 12:19:10
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
Howdy David!
We figured that out while we were batting the idea around. The
consensus was that the top cover would have to be a very soft &
pliable material to seal the top pot with minimal force (think of
something along the lines of the tacky glue holding magazine pull-outs
in place). Of course, we're only talking about a few PSI or so. Just
in case it breaks we decided that it should be tested outside, using a
propane hot plate, and as always being sure to wear appropriate safety
gear.

This may turn out to be applicable to Sunbeam & other metal topped vac
pots. We'll see?

Robert Harmon

On Jun 13, 9:35 pm, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>


 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 12:10:54
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
On Jun 13, 11:00 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

Howdy Barry!
Well, isn't that true of about 83% of the posts here; questions &
hypothesis? That's what the PID application was until it was backed up
with empirical data. If only perfect people presented tested & proven
ideas this forum would be no fun at all!

{;-)

Robert Harmon

http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/for%20sale.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~r_harmon/Gaggia%20for%20sale.htm



  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 11:26:21
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote:



 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 13:32:44
From:
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
In alt.coffee, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@zhotmail.com > wrote:

> What do you believe the results will be?

An increased velocity of coffee going south. Whether it makes a better
cup is something which has yet to be seen.


--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel



 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 04:00:10
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding

sounds like a solution in search of a problem.



 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 02:35:24
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding


 
Date: 13 Jun 2007 22:11:43
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
Robert Harmon wrote:
> During our vacation an idea was broached by a fellow fisherman. As usual we
> were grouped around the bottle, solving the world's problems (if only they'd
> listen to us!) & swapping war stories when one of my friends asked how much
> noodling it would take to figure out how to take a pump like the one in the
> Coleman lantern we had hanging from the mast & use it to pressurize the
> upper bowl of a vac pot?
>
> His reasoning went like this; the greatest problem with using a vac pot is
> that it's difficult to get the coffee back down into the lower pot. We've
> discussed different ways to deal with this - just do a search & you'll get
> lots of hits here & on CG - but to be honest everyone I know who uses a vac
> pot occasionally ends up with a less than full release. {;-)
>
> The four of us sat there, sipping our libations, & hatched the following
> scenario.
> * Prepare the pot as usual.
> * Let the brew process proceed until all the water is in the top bowl.
> * After the coffee has steeped use a small Coleman-type pump to introduce a
> positive pressure into the top bowl.
> * This positive pressure plus the negative pressure in the bottom bowl
> should result in a completely empty upper bowl.
>
> Seems like cheating to me but I'll reserve judgment until I see it in
> action. Right now he's off searching for someone to fill his needs
> (psychiatrist?), a top to seal the upper bowl & a pump.
>
> What do you believe the results will be?
>

I'm sure a device could easily be fabricated to achieve your aim, but
I have to say that in my many brews in the various Cona vacuum brewers
I have I've never had a failed trip south.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 13 Jun 2007 16:16:43
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Here's a challenge: vac pot modding
I've heard of something similar being done in a Pavoni Europiccola in order
to avoid overheating. In a Pavoni, the lever pumps the water thru the
coffee but it's normally steam pressure that pushes the water out of the
boiler and into the piston chamber. Some people keep the boiler below
boiling (to avoid overheating) and push the water up by pressurizing the
boiler with a similar Coleman type pump built into the boiler cap.




"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:pqWbi.3908$tb6.2600@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> During our vacation an idea was broached by a fellow fisherman. As usual
> we were grouped around the bottle, solving the world's problems (if only
> they'd listen to us!) & swapping war stories when one of my friends asked
> how much noodling it would take to figure out how to take a pump like the
> one in the Coleman lantern we had hanging from the mast & use it to
> pressurize the upper bowl of a vac pot?
>
> His reasoning went like this; the greatest problem with using a vac pot is
> that it's difficult to get the coffee back down into the lower pot. We've
> discussed different ways to deal with this - just do a search & you'll get
> lots of hits here & on CG - but to be honest everyone I know who uses a
> vac pot occasionally ends up with a less than full release. {;-)
>
> The four of us sat there, sipping our libations, & hatched the following
> scenario.
> * Prepare the pot as usual.
> * Let the brew process proceed until all the water is in the top bowl.
> * After the coffee has steeped use a small Coleman-type pump to introduce
> a positive pressure into the top bowl.
> * This positive pressure plus the negative pressure in the bottom bowl
> should result in a completely empty upper bowl.
>
> Seems like cheating to me but I'll reserve judgment until I see it in
> action. Right now he's off searching for someone to fill his needs
> (psychiatrist?), a top to seal the upper bowl & a pump.
>
> What do you believe the results will be?
>
> --
> Robert Harmon
> --
> My coffee pages. - http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj
>
> My 'Guidelines For Newbies' - http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87
>
> Gaggia Classic; a great machine! - http://www.tinyurl.com/2enxjo
>
> Nuova Simonelli Mac & grinder price cut! - http://www.tinyurl.com/2aogu2
>