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Date: 22 Oct 2006 22:12:57
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
OK, I'm convinced that this machine would benefit from the temp control to
be had from replacing the Sirai pstat with a PID. Here's my plan of attack &
I'd appreciate ANY feedback or comments that'll help me do this the easy
way.

What I think I'll need;
PID
SSR
thermocouple
misc. wire
??

Is there a preference for the PID, SSR, & TC, as far as brands or models? I
can get these locally or on eBay. Does anyone have an eBay seller to
recommend?

How I plan to proceed (discussed with folks who've done the conversion);
* I will remove the Sirai pstat & both tstats.
* The TC will mount on the boiler at the farthest point from the water
inlet.
- I've decided that it's not worth the effort to mount the TC in the
boiler.
- The TC will be mounted on the surface of the boiler, under a large hose
clamp already there (used to hold the tstats).
* I plan to cut an opening in Bunn's front panel & mount the pstat
internally.
- The pstat's mounting will be directly over the pump & motor, which is
already shielded from the boiler by a panel.
* What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
- I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or should
I do this anyway as a precaution?)
* Is there any point in retaining & using the pressure gauge?

As you can see I have more questions than answers at this point. But I'm
competent to do this & it couldn't be too difficult or so many people
wouldn't be doing it (some for a living it seems).
--
Robert (Any help would be appreciated.) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r






 
Date: 24 Oct 2006 04:04:13
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:12:57 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

> - I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or should
>I do this anyway as a precaution?)


this would be good.



 
Date: 23 Oct 2006 11:19:04
From: daveb
Subject: Re: How to kill the noise,
Noise!

I got a similar reaction to the Sirai in my (ex) Astra

dave
135



 
Date: 23 Oct 2006 10:39:29
From: Eric Svendson
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
If you really want to do this, why not just buy Jim's kit and adapt it to
your Bunn?

I would not cut any holes because you may find that the benefits don't add
up. At worst you end up with a good controller, a good SSR, and a nice T
thermocouple. Is the Sirai pstat "broken"?

The deadband of most pstats (0.20 bar) in an Hx machine allows for a boiler
water temperature variation of about 6 degrees F (1.00 to 1.20 bar) as
compared to the Silvia/Gaggia variation of 35-40 degrees. PID's make those
machines perform much better as you may personally know or as you can see
from the multitude of postings on this ng. The big advantage of a PID in a
hx machine is the ability to easily alter brew temp given the same flush
routine.

Eric S.


"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:J1S_g.15284$o71.7023@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> OK, I'm convinced that this machine would benefit from the temp control to
> be had from replacing the Sirai pstat with a PID. Here's my plan of attack
> & I'd appreciate ANY feedback or comments that'll help me do this the easy
> way.
>
> What I think I'll need;
> PID
> SSR
> thermocouple
> misc. wire
> ??
>
> Is there a preference for the PID, SSR, & TC, as far as brands or models?
> I can get these locally or on eBay. Does anyone have an eBay seller to
> recommend?
>
> How I plan to proceed (discussed with folks who've done the conversion);
> * I will remove the Sirai pstat & both tstats.
> * The TC will mount on the boiler at the farthest point from the water
> inlet.
> - I've decided that it's not worth the effort to mount the TC in the
> boiler.
> - The TC will be mounted on the surface of the boiler, under a large
> hose clamp already there (used to hold the tstats).
> * I plan to cut an opening in Bunn's front panel & mount the pstat
> internally.
> - The pstat's mounting will be directly over the pump & motor, which is
> already shielded from the boiler by a panel.
> * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
> - I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or
> should I do this anyway as a precaution?)
> * Is there any point in retaining & using the pressure gauge?
>
> As you can see I have more questions than answers at this point. But I'm
> competent to do this & it couldn't be too difficult or so many people
> wouldn't be doing it (some for a living it seems).
> --
> Robert (Any help would be appreciated.) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>




  
Date: 23 Oct 2006 15:48:46
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
"Eric Svendson" <erics@erols.com > wrote in
news:b9CdnYdHecLQSaHYnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@rcn.net:

> If you really want to do this, why not just buy Jim's kit and adapt it
> to your Bunn?
>
> I would not cut any holes because you may find that the benefits don't
> add up. At worst you end up with a good controller, a good SSR, and a
> nice T thermocouple. Is the Sirai pstat "broken"?
>
> The deadband of most pstats (0.20 bar) in an Hx machine allows for a
> boiler water temperature variation of about 6 degrees F (1.00 to 1.20
> bar) as compared to the Silvia/Gaggia variation of 35-40 degrees.
> PID's make those machines perform much better as you may personally
> know or as you can see from the multitude of postings on this ng. The
> big advantage of a PID in a hx machine is the ability to easily alter
> brew temp given the same flush routine.
>
> Eric S.
>
>
Howdy Eric!
One of the best reasons to eliminate the pstat is noise. For some reason
the Sirai's are very noisy when they kick on & off (probably has to do with
three sets of contacts). Every time it CLICKS my spouse jumps & since it
sits on the bar between the kitchen & her seating in the family room I
figured this was a better option than her, "Toss that damn thing in the
trash!", solution.

I'll also be eliminating both tstats & replacing the high tstat with the
simpler thermal fuse. The fuse is bulletproof & either works or not, unlike
the tstat that can sticks & blow a boiler. I'm considering a 184C fuse
(363F), which is standard on Gaggia semi autos.

Robert (The Sirai has got to go!) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.


 
Date: 23 Oct 2006 06:29:09
From: daveb
Subject: Re: How to i
A LINK!

jggall01 wrote:
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>
> > Is there a preference for the PID, SSR, & TC, as far as brands or models? I
> > can get these locally or on eBay.
>
> Digital controller: best: Watlow SD3C; also very good: Watlow 935
> - others will say Fuji PXR3, Cal 3200/32E/3300, or maybe Love 32B
> - you are probably stuck with 1/32 DIN size if you are mounting
> internally
>
> SSR: Crydom D2425 w/KS100 clear plastic cover
>
> T/C: type T, 24 AWG, teflon/teflon insulation. Simple bead type for
> your planned mounting.
>
> > * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
> (I assume you mean PID's)
>
> Watlow: 149F / 65C
> All others I know of: 122F / 50C
>
> > I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or should
> > I do this anyway as a precaution?)
>
> Can't hurt, but natural convection is pretty effective if you can
> arrange venting properly. Get yourself a digital thermometer (Omega
> HH506RA is reasonably priced and very handy) and put a t/c probe in the
> space intended for the controller. Let the Bunn run for several hours
> and see what kind of temp you get. But do this BEFORE you cut the hole
> ;-}
>
> Go for it!
>
> Jim
> www.pidkits.com



  
Date: 23 Oct 2006 12:30:23
From: RogueJa
Subject: Re: How to i

The missing link!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 23 Oct 2006 04:37:32
From: Phil P
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?

Robert Harmon wrote:

[major snippage]

> * The TC will mount on the boiler at the farthest point from the water
> inlet.
> - I've decided that it's not worth the effort to mount the TC in the
> boiler.
> - The TC will be mounted on the surface of the boiler, under a large hose
> clamp already there (used to hold the tstats).

Regarding the placement of the t/c, the advice I've read has been to
position it on the boiler as far away from the cold water inlet as
possible, as you suggest. But I wonder whether that is the best place?
If the t/c is next to the cold inlet, it will trigger the heating
process sooner in the brew cycle and possibly improve the temperature
stability during the shot, whilst potentially shortening the boiler
recovery time before the next shot can be pulled. As soon as the pump
stops at the end of the shot, the convection currents inside the boiler
should quickly equilize out any local cold spot.

A possible downside would be if the heating rate is higher than the
heating requirement for the incoming cold water, in which case temp
overshoot would result, particularly for longer extractions. With the
external placement, that would be easy to test though. In any case
this is probably less significant for a large-capacity commercial
boiler than for a small domestic where the dynamics are very different.


Anyway, good luck with the conversion, and i look forward to hearing
your results.



 
Date: 22 Oct 2006 19:11:57
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
Howdy Jack!
Thanks for the info. I did check them out & saw two things that
interested me.

1) Universal 1/32 DIN PID Temperature Controller - $33.95

&

2) Precisia Espresso Machine w/PID - $185?

The first one sounds good but the second one sounds too good. Do you
(or anyone) have any info on this?

Robert Harmon

Jack Denver wrote:
> I've had good luck with the Auber and its cheap:
>
> http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3
>
> here and on ebay.



 
Date: 22 Oct 2006 17:54:27
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
Too much thinking for a Sunday! When my mind's wrestling with a problem
things like this happen with frequency. Tunnel vision works for me when
I'm plotting out a project & against me when I'm communicating ideas
about that project.

Robert (If I was perfect why would I hang out here?) Harmon

Moka Java wrote:
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>
>
> > - The pstat's mounting will be directly over the pump & motor, which is
> > already shielded from the boiler by a panel.
> > * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
> > - I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or should
> > I do this anyway as a precaution?)
> > * Is there any point in retaining & using the pressure gauge?
> >
> > As you can see I have more questions than answers at this point.
>
> Yeah, well, firs yer gonna hafta figger out why yer replacin a PSTAT wit
> a PSTAT.
>
> R "duh" TF



 
Date: 22 Oct 2006 20:49:22
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
I've had good luck with the Auber and its cheap:

http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

here and on ebay.

I'd run the power to the PID thru an inline fuse holder (glass automotive
type - 1 A IIRC). Steal power off the machine's power switch so that that
the main switch also kills the power to the PID.

I'd recommend you get a probe type thermocouple and adapt it to whatever
port the steam line to the pstat formerly occupied - this will get you steam
temperature rather than the temperature of the outside of the boiler which
has a considerable lag.

SSR needs to be mounted to some sort of heatsink. A large flat metal area of
the machine case should do - a little computer heatsink compound won't hurt
if you have it.

Run the 2 wires that formerly went to your pstat to the SSR output contacts.
I'd leave the thermostats alone. What is the original function of the 2
t-stats? - usually there is one high limit safety which you should
definitely not remove. I don't what what your 2nd one does.

Usually 50C is the max recommended operating temp for most PIDs - check to
see if the space you have in mind is cool enough.

No harm in keeping the pressure gauges - worst case if you lack a pump gauge
convert the existing gauge location to that purpose. Or just keep the steam
gauge as a double check.


"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:J1S_g.15284$o71.7023@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> OK, I'm convinced that this machine would benefit from the temp control to
> be had from replacing the Sirai pstat with a PID. Here's my plan of attack
> & I'd appreciate ANY feedback or comments that'll help me do this the easy
> way.
>
> What I think I'll need;
> PID
> SSR
> thermocouple
> misc. wire
> ??
>
> Is there a preference for the PID, SSR, & TC, as far as brands or models?
> I can get these locally or on eBay. Does anyone have an eBay seller to
> recommend?
>
> How I plan to proceed (discussed with folks who've done the conversion);
> * I will remove the Sirai pstat & both tstats.
> * The TC will mount on the boiler at the farthest point from the water
> inlet.
> - I've decided that it's not worth the effort to mount the TC in the
> boiler.
> - The TC will be mounted on the surface of the boiler, under a large
> hose clamp already there (used to hold the tstats).
> * I plan to cut an opening in Bunn's front panel & mount the pstat
> internally.
> - The pstat's mounting will be directly over the pump & motor, which is
> already shielded from the boiler by a panel.
> * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
> - I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or
> should I do this anyway as a precaution?)
> * Is there any point in retaining & using the pressure gauge?
>
> As you can see I have more questions than answers at this point. But I'm
> competent to do this & it couldn't be too difficult or so many people
> wouldn't be doing it (some for a living it seems).
> --
> Robert (Any help would be appreciated.) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>




 
Date: 22 Oct 2006 17:48:38
From: daveb
Subject: Re: How
?



  
Date: 23 Oct 2006 03:09:34
From: Danny
Subject: Re: How
daveb wrote:
> ?
>

Clear, unbiased advice, in reply to a post asking for advice, with no
attempts at keting or vague reasons why it wouldn't work, ship the
machine etc etc. You should try it.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



 
Date: 22 Oct 2006 20:28:33
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
Robert Harmon wrote:


> - The pstat's mounting will be directly over the pump & motor, which is
> already shielded from the boiler by a panel.
> * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
> - I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or should
> I do this anyway as a precaution?)
> * Is there any point in retaining & using the pressure gauge?
>
> As you can see I have more questions than answers at this point.

Yeah, well, firs yer gonna hafta figger out why yer replacin a PSTAT wit
a PSTAT.

R "duh" TF


 
Date: 22 Oct 2006 17:13:58
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
Robert Harmon wrote:

> Is there a preference for the PID, SSR, & TC, as far as brands or models? I
> can get these locally or on eBay.

Digital controller: best: Watlow SD3C; also very good: Watlow 935
- others will say Fuji PXR3, Cal 3200/32E/3300, or maybe Love 32B
- you are probably stuck with 1/32 DIN size if you are mounting
internally

SSR: Crydom D2425 w/KS100 clear plastic cover

T/C: type T, 24 AWG, teflon/teflon insulation. Simple bead type for
your planned mounting.

> * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
(I assume you mean PID's)

Watlow: 149F / 65C
All others I know of: 122F / 50C

> I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or should
> I do this anyway as a precaution?)

Can't hurt, but natural convection is pretty effective if you can
arrange venting properly. Get yourself a digital thermometer (Omega
HH506RA is reasonably priced and very handy) and put a t/c probe in the
space intended for the controller. Let the Bunn run for several hours
and see what kind of temp you get. But do this BEFORE you cut the hole
;-}

Go for it!

Jim
www.pidkits.com



  
Date: 23 Oct 2006 01:04:09
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: How to install a PID for my Bunn ES-1A?
"jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote in
news:1161562438.539218.317470@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> Robert Harmon wrote:
>
>> Is there a preference for the PID, SSR, & TC, as far as brands or
>> models? I can get these locally or on eBay.
>
> Digital controller: best: Watlow SD3C; also very good: Watlow 935
> - others will say Fuji PXR3, Cal 3200/32E/3300, or maybe Love 32B
> - you are probably stuck with 1/32 DIN size if you are mounting
> internally
>
> SSR: Crydom D2425 w/KS100 clear plastic cover
>
> T/C: type T, 24 AWG, teflon/teflon insulation. Simple bead type for
> your planned mounting.
>
>> * What is the max environmental temp for pstats?
> (I assume you mean PID's)
>
> Watlow: 149F / 65C
> All others I know of: 122F / 50C
>
>> I can always mount a cooling fan for the pstat if necessary (or
>> should
>> I do this anyway as a precaution?)
>
> Can't hurt, but natural convection is pretty effective if you can
> arrange venting properly. Get yourself a digital thermometer (Omega
> HH506RA is reasonably priced and very handy) and put a t/c probe in
> the space intended for the controller. Let the Bunn run for several
> hours and see what kind of temp you get. But do this BEFORE you cut
> the hole ;-}
>
> Go for it!
>
> Jim
> www.pidkits.com
>
>

You are a true gent Jim. There are those who'd choke on their own words if
they attempted to give out free information, especially if that info
threatened their rice bowl. You're advice is doubly appreciated!

Robert (Taking the time to acknowledge a gentleman.) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.