coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main
Date: 02 Nov 2006 09:12:13
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
I have on order a La Spaziale S1, II. Its new location will be to
extend outward about 50% into a "garden window"----not insulated,
considerable air flow. (No point in going further on the aesthetics
and functionality, I'll post some photos when things are set up).

I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
the counter. My first thought was that this is a good thing;
especially after my Isomac Tea always seemed overly hot----seemed like
it could have used a small fan circulating some air through.

Now I'm wondering whether the cool air circulation has a downside, and
it raises some questions:
Is there an "ideal" ambient or external temp for a "typical" machine?
Does too cool an environment cause the boilers to cycle on/off
excessively?
Does this matter not one whit?

tin (can anyone tell he's shot-deprived and has time on his hands?)





 
Date: 04 Nov 2006 06:26:08
From:
Subject: Re: external temp affect esp. machine operation?
Actually I wouldn't insulate the boiler on this machine. The
temperature controllers inside will do a fine job of control, and
insulating the boiler will increase any temperature overshoot since
heat will be rejected to the surrounding environment more slowly.

-Greg


Danny wrote:
> Heat + Beans wrote:
> > Using my usual "standard of evidence" when faced with contradictory
> > arguments, Dave is the winner because he gives the answer I was hoping
> > for.
> >
> > OTOH, Alex's logic has a slight edge over Dave's weakish but
> > compelling apples/oranges comparison.
> >
> > Next person with an opinion gets to settle this.
> >
> > tin (who pays increasing attention to ambient temp as his own
> > internals become more reptillian)
>
> I would take the answer as being whatever environment the machine was
> designed to be used in, which is probably ambient room temperature, or
> 15-20 degrees with no wild swings in temperature whilst the machine is
> in use (ie: the room might well get cooler at night). This isn't to
> say that a machine will not operate correctly outside of these
> parameters, certainly, my trailer is a hostile environment for any
> espresso machine - over 40 in the summer, and 1.7 this morning.
> Everything functions, but the autofill electronics (Giceur unit)
> really don't like extremes, having difficulty until everything has
> stabilised (probably due to old solder joints being stressed).
>
> I would probably avoid draughty locations, or locations where there
> may be a wild swing in temperature. I would also insulate the boiler
> and be a little concerned if it's a grouphead with active
> cooling/heating etc.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



  
Date: 04 Nov 2006 14:47:18
From: Danny
Subject: Re: external temp affect esp. machine operation?
gscace@earthlink.net wrote:
> Actually I wouldn't insulate the boiler on this machine. The
> temperature controllers inside will do a fine job of control, and
> insulating the boiler will increase any temperature overshoot since
> heat will be rejected to the surrounding environment more slowly.
>

OK, I'm not familiar with anything newer than 1980 :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



 
Date: 03 Nov 2006 03:33:12
From:
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
Actually I offset part of it by selling my uber-Astra, which went to a
good home - a fellow employee of NIST who posts here (Alan Munter). I
formed a small company called Espresso Research LLC that makes
thermofilters and does my nefarious bidding on all things coffee. I
make em in debasement of my house and test them out at the Espresso
Research lab, which is on the opposite side of debasement from the
Espresso Research assembly area and model shop. I'm not a keting
guy and I don't really have time for distribution stuff, so Espresso
Parts NW sells them for me. They've been really helpful. There's
about 200 or so of em out there in the hands of the third wave and
wavelets.

-Greg "They're all my chilluns" Scace


Ren=E9 van Sint Annaland wrote:
> In article <1162504138.397208.121290@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, grego=
ry.scace@nist.gov
> says...
> > I bought an S1 for developing and testing 53mm thermofilters.
> That's a fair bit of money invested, do you sell these thermofilters now =
on a regular basis
> as a business?
> --=20
> Ren=E9 van Sint Annaland
> www.justespresso.com



 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 21:42:47
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
I wouldn't know how many he sells, but I've seen at least two
references to the "device" as a verb! As in, "I'll know more when I
scace it."
tin

Ren=E9 van Sint Annaland wrote:
> In article <1162504138.397208.121290@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, grego=
ry.scace@nist.gov
> says...
> > I bought an S1 for developing and testing 53mm thermofilters.
> That's a fair bit of money invested, do you sell these thermofilters now =
on a regular basis
> as a business?
> --=20
> Ren=E9 van Sint Annaland
> www.justespresso.com



 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 13:48:58
From: gscace
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
Hi there:

I'm guessing it ain't gnna make no never mind if it's not getting baked
by the sun too much (UV on the plastic). The guts are driven by
temperature sensors and aren't gonna be sensitive to ambient changes,
unlike a hx machine could be.

Nice machine. I bought an S1 for developing and testing 53mm
thermofilters. I think it's a pretty good machine, although it doesn't
have the steam power that I'm used to with the Linea. However, LaSpaz
is very nice on the phone and I learned how to adjust steam pressure
today, something that is not mentioned in the manual. I have not yet
done so, but I'll post something when I do.

Oh yeah, it requires about 2 ounces of flush to warm up the dispersion
block off of idle. After that it doesn't require any flush except to
blow grinds off the screen. Temperature offset is apparently
programmable, which is good. My machine, the S1 version 1, requires
101C setpoint to produce 94.5C at the coffee.

-Greg

Heat + Beans wrote:
> I have on order a La Spaziale S1, II. Its new location will be to
> extend outward about 50% into a "garden window"----not insulated,
> considerable air flow. (No point in going further on the aesthetics
> and functionality, I'll post some photos when things are set up).
>
> I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
> significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
> the counter. My first thought was that this is a good thing;
> especially after my Isomac Tea always seemed overly hot----seemed like
> it could have used a small fan circulating some air through.
>
> Now I'm wondering whether the cool air circulation has a downside, and
> it raises some questions:
> Is there an "ideal" ambient or external temp for a "typical" machine?
> Does too cool an environment cause the boilers to cycle on/off
> excessively?
> Does this matter not one whit?
>
> tin (can anyone tell he's shot-deprived and has time on his hands?)



  
Date: 03 Nov 2006 17:31:44
From: René van Sint Annaland
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
In article <1162504138.397208.121290@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >, gregory.scace@nist.gov
says...
> I bought an S1 for developing and testing 53mm thermofilters.
That's a fair bit of money invested, do you sell these thermofilters now on a regular basis
as a business?
--
René van Sint Annaland
www.justespresso.com


 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 11:22:16
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?

I- >Ian wrote:
> On 2 Nov 2006 09:12:13 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
> >significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
> >the counter.
>
> What about the summer? 119=B0F in the valley this past July!!!

I'm on the Westside in a canyon. Window is under an eave on north side
of house. We turn on the air conditioner maybe 5 days a year. I'm
likely to keep the machine on 24/7, though it has an economy mode that
can shut down the steam boiler. We have orchids growing year-round in
this space, and it seems ideal for them. Nope, I was more concerned
with the issue that Alex raised. Secifically, with temps between low
60s and low 70s, and a fair amount of air circulation / convection,
will the machine be cycling on and off more than is good for it?
tin



>
> Is the machine on all the time?


> Does the window get full sun?
> Is air conditioning off when you're out?
>
> Under these conditions, might not the machine electronics get a tad
> warm?



  
Date: 02 Nov 2006 20:20:50
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
On 2 Nov 2006 11:22:16 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com >
wrote:

>
>I->Ian wrote:
>> On 2 Nov 2006 09:12:13 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
>> >significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
>> >the counter.
>>
>> What about the summer? 119°F in the valley this past July!!!
>
>I'm on the Westside in a canyon. Window is under an eave on north side
>of house. We turn on the air conditioner maybe 5 days a year. I'm
>likely to keep the machine on 24/7, though it has an economy mode that
>can shut down the steam boiler. We have orchids growing year-round in
>this space, and it seems ideal for them. Nope, I was more concerned
>with the issue that Alex raised. Secifically, with temps between low
>60s and low 70s, and a fair amount of air circulation / convection,
>will the machine be cycling on and off more than is good for it?
>tin

The exposed brew head will radiate more heat in a cooler spot. If you
include a warm-up flush as part of your routine, you might want to
lengthen it by a few seconds.

shall


  
Date: 02 Nov 2006 19:57:02
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
On 2 Nov 2006 11:22:16 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Secifically, with temps between low
>60s and low 70s, and a fair amount of air circulation / convection,
>will the machine be cycling on and off more than is good for it?

During the hottest summer months, air conditioning is 78F when we're
home, 85F when were not. Espresso machine is midway between two vents,
about 12 feet away.

We're in the valley and temps are now in the low 50's at night. We
keep windows and doors ajar, so house temperature is low 60s in the
morning.

During cooler months, breeze comes in window about 6 feet from
machine.

Prior to replacing the pStat with a PID, it clacked on more or less
every ~150seconds and off every ~10, regardless of the ambient
temperature in the range 60-85F, air on / air off, window open /
window closed.


 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 19:04:45
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?
On 2 Nov 2006 09:12:13 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com >
wrote:

>
>I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
>significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
>the counter.

What about the summer? 119°F in the valley this past July!!!

Is the machine on all the time?
Does the window get full sun?
Is air conditioning off when you're out?

Under these conditions, might not the machine electronics get a tad
warm?


 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 11:03:41
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: external temp affect esp. machine operation?
Using my usual "standard of evidence" when faced with contradictory
arguments, Dave is the winner because he gives the answer I was hoping
for.

OTOH, Alex's logic has a slight edge over Dave's weakish but
compelling apples/oranges comparison.

Next person with an opinion gets to settle this.

tin (who pays increasing attention to ambient temp as his own
internals become more reptillian)




daveb wrote:
> What a great machine! and a big step up in quality.
>
> Effects? None.
>
> (if you can stand the ambient temp, so will the machine.)
>
> Dave
> www.hitechespresso.com
>
>
> Heat + Beans wrote:
> > I have on order a La Spaziale S1, II. Its new location will be to
> > extend outward about 50% into a "garden window"----not insulated,
> > considerable air flow. (No point in going further on the aesthetics
> > and functionality, I'll post some photos when things are set up).
> >
> > I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
> > significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
> > the counter. My first thought was that this is a good thing;
> > especially after my Isomac Tea always seemed overly hot----seemed like
> > it could have used a small fan circulating some air through.
> >
> > Now I'm wondering whether the cool air circulation has a downside, and
> > it raises some questions:
> > Is there an "ideal" ambient or external temp for a "typical" machine?
> > Does too cool an environment cause the boilers to cycle on/off
> > excessively?
> > Does this matter not one whit?
> >
> > tin (can anyone tell he's shot-deprived and has time on his hands?)



  
Date: 03 Nov 2006 18:26:31
From: Danny
Subject: Re: external temp affect esp. machine operation?
Heat + Beans wrote:
> Using my usual "standard of evidence" when faced with contradictory
> arguments, Dave is the winner because he gives the answer I was hoping
> for.
>
> OTOH, Alex's logic has a slight edge over Dave's weakish but
> compelling apples/oranges comparison.
>
> Next person with an opinion gets to settle this.
>
> tin (who pays increasing attention to ambient temp as his own
> internals become more reptillian)

I would take the answer as being whatever environment the machine was
designed to be used in, which is probably ambient room temperature, or
15-20 degrees with no wild swings in temperature whilst the machine is
in use (ie: the room might well get cooler at night). This isn't to
say that a machine will not operate correctly outside of these
parameters, certainly, my trailer is a hostile environment for any
espresso machine - over 40 in the summer, and 1.7 this morning.
Everything functions, but the autofill electronics (Giceur unit)
really don't like extremes, having difficulty until everything has
stabilised (probably due to old solder joints being stressed).

I would probably avoid draughty locations, or locations where there
may be a wild swing in temperature. I would also insulate the boiler
and be a little concerned if it's a grouphead with active
cooling/heating etc.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 10:35:33
From: daveb
Subject: external temp affect esp. machine operation?
What a great machine! and a big step up in quality.

Effects? None.

(if you can stand the ambient temp, so will the machine.)

Dave
www.hitechespresso.com


Heat + Beans wrote:
> I have on order a La Spaziale S1, II. Its new location will be to
> extend outward about 50% into a "garden window"----not insulated,
> considerable air flow. (No point in going further on the aesthetics
> and functionality, I'll post some photos when things are set up).
>
> I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
> significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
> the counter. My first thought was that this is a good thing;
> especially after my Isomac Tea always seemed overly hot----seemed like
> it could have used a small fan circulating some air through.
>
> Now I'm wondering whether the cool air circulation has a downside, and
> it raises some questions:
> Is there an "ideal" ambient or external temp for a "typical" machine?
> Does too cool an environment cause the boilers to cycle on/off
> excessively?
> Does this matter not one whit?
>
> tin (can anyone tell he's shot-deprived and has time on his hands?)



 
Date: 02 Nov 2006 09:37:06
From: Alex_chef2000
Subject: Re: How will external temp affect esp. machine operation?

Heat + Beans ha escrito:

> I have on order a La Spaziale S1, II. Its new location will be to
> extend outward about 50% into a "garden window"----not insulated,
> considerable air flow. (No point in going further on the aesthetics
> and functionality, I'll post some photos when things are set up).
>
> I'm in So.California, so nothing like a freeze, but it is a
> significantly cooler environment than my previous machine's corner of
> the counter. My first thought was that this is a good thing;
> especially after my Isomac Tea always seemed overly hot----seemed like
> it could have used a small fan circulating some air through.
>
> Now I'm wondering whether the cool air circulation has a downside, and
> it raises some questions:
> Is there an "ideal" ambient or external temp for a "typical" machine?
> Does too cool an environment cause the boilers to cycle on/off
> excessively?
> Does this matter not one whit?
>
> tin (can anyone tell he's shot-deprived and has time on his hands?)

Hi there, you may need to cover your machine, if you are in California,
you can look for a beautiful glass or something to "cover" the machine.

These machines are intended to work without any air circulation or the
boiler may be working all day. On the long run, you will pay a lot of
money in energy bills and the stress in the machine will cause many
service problems too.


My two cents,



Alex.: