coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main
Date: 17 Nov 2006 18:55:12
From: Ton
Subject: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
Maybe this is "old" news, but recently I saw an ad about a 3 dvd box,
called "Black Coffee" being a documentary about (of course) coffee.
Meanwhile I ordered it here in Holland and received it today. Although I
still have to view the dvd's, it looks very interesting from the
description on the box. It is in the English language with Dutch
subtitles and each dvd is about 1 hour in length. The only website
outside of Holland that I could find and that sells it is:
http://www.amazon.ca/Black-Coffee/sim/B000GJ0LDQ/2




 
Date: 18 Nov 2006 10:43:27
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!

beans@smithfarms.com wrote:
> On 18 Nov 2006 08:16:36 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:

> >Starbucks does not buy directly from co-operatives but buys instead
> >through other middlemen (as was illustrated in the movie during the
> >auction scene) who are clearly taking a cut - leaving less for
> >producers. . . .the $1.26 figure as the 'guaranteed' certified fair
> >trade is also misleading; this is a minimum figure for non-organic
> >coffee and in reality many of us are paying significantly more than
> >this. While the movie goes to some lengths to illustrate the benefits
> >Ethiopian coffee communities are starting to see from trading with
> >supportive fair trade organisations, Mr Kimberley sees fit to both
> >challenge the impact of genuine fair trade, and at the same time to
> >overstate the comparatively modest efforts his own company is making
> >towards addressing coffee farmers' needs. -Justin Purser, Coffee
> >Manager, Trade Aid, New Zealand.
>
> Justin, could you explain at what point in coffee that $1.26 is paid?
> Is it at the green bean (pre roast) level?

Hi - it was a take on the movie, Black Coffee, and the link to buy the
documentary from Amazon. Amazon listed the producers, Mongrel Media,
which I used to look around a little with Google. (I've lost what I
came up with since then while verifying a DVD I just burnt. The disc
locked and I rebooted and decided may as well clean/restore the OS
while getting back control of the disc, which cleared any prior browser
history.)

Though I do remember the forum group discussion. The first poster was
a Starbucks' store manager in U.K., an identity I did not first divulge
and whose name or moniker neither do I recall. The memo the U.K.
coffee manager posted was a general missive directed to Starbucks store
outlets, from Paul Kimberley of Starbucks corporate headquarters, which
the U.K. manager thought directly to cross-post into the particular
forum I was reading at the time. As you can see, Mr. Kimerberly took
exception with fair-trade agreements and unfair commodity pricing the
film Black Coffee depicts Starbucks as exercising through middlemen
(jobbers/brokers) on behalf of its sole interests. At which point, Mr.
Purser of Trade Aid then interjected his objections, in the form of a
missive to the U.K. Starbucks manager, by in large quoted in its
entirety, as it were, in direct response to Starbucks' corporate
presence by proxy to the U.K. store manager, to which, the Starbucks's
manager neglected to respond. A conversation of consequence then
ensued within the forum membership, which I negleted to read in its
entirety in leu of initial personages and an impact I thought more
noteworthy. I don't believe either the Starbucks U.K. manager or Mr.
Purser conversed further than what was initially said on the matter
over a forum thread posted mid-October.



 
Date: 18 Nov 2006 08:16:36
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
Ton wrote:
> Maybe this is "old" news, but recently I saw an ad about a 3 dvd box,
> called "Black Coffee" being a documentary about (of course) coffee.
> Meanwhile I ordered it here in Holland and received it today. Although I
> still have to view the dvd's, it looks very interesting from the
> description on the box. It is in the English language with Dutch
> subtitles and each dvd is about 1 hour in length. The only website
> outside of Holland that I could find and that sells it is:
> http://www.amazon.ca/Black-Coffee/sim/B000GJ0LDQ/2

Before watching it, Paul wishes to send an important memo regarding
poor farmers allegedly making 3 cents on a 3-dollar/US cup of java.

As you may be aware, a new film is due to receive its premiere at the
London Film Festival and other locations in the coming moth. Black gold
portrays the coffee industry as a whole, rather than starbucks
specifically. Starbucks feels that film is inaccurate and incomplete,
as it does not explain how Starbucks purchases coffe, no does it
provide any reference to potential solutions to the world coffee
crisis. Starbucks takes an integrated approach to coffee purchasing.
Our goal is to pay premium praices that provide the coffee farmers with
a profit. In our financial year 2005, we paid an average price of $1.28
per pound for our coffee, 23% above the commodity price and comparable
with the guaranteed Fairtrade price of $1.26. -Paul Kimberley, vp of
operation of Starbucks.

To which, potential indiscretions are brought to focus, as promted
Justin then to raise concern over disparagement from costs exercised by
middlemen in proxy to Starbucks.

Starbucks does not buy directly from co-operatives but buys instead
through other middlemen (as was illustrated in the movie during the
auction scene) who are clearly taking a cut - leaving less for
producers. . . .the $1.26 figure as the 'guaranteed' certified fair
trade is also misleading; this is a minimum figure for non-organic
coffee and in reality many of us are paying significantly more than
this. While the movie goes to some lengths to illustrate the benefits
Ethiopian coffee communities are starting to see from trading with
supportive fair trade organisations, Mr Kimberley sees fit to both
challenge the impact of genuine fair trade, and at the same time to
overstate the comparatively modest efforts his own company is making
towards addressing coffee farmers' needs. -Justin Purser, Coffee
Manager, Trade Aid, New Zealand.



  
Date: 18 Nov 2006 06:44:10
From:
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
On 18 Nov 2006 08:16:36 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote:

>>Before watching it, Paul wishes to send an important memo regarding
>poor farmers allegedly making 3 cents on a 3-dollar/US cup of java.
>
>As you may be aware, a new film is due to receive its premiere at the
>London Film Festival and other locations in the coming moth. Black
gold
>portrays the coffee industry as a whole, rather than starbucks
>specifically. Starbucks feels that film is inaccurate and incomplete,
>as it does not explain how Starbucks purchases coffe, no does it
>provide any reference to potential solutions to the world coffee
>crisis. Starbucks takes an integrated approach to coffee purchasing.
>Our goal is to pay premium praices that provide the coffee farmers
with
>a profit. In our financial year 2005, we paid an average price of
$1.28
>per pound for our coffee, 23% above the commodity price and
comparable
>with the guaranteed Fairtrade price of $1.26. -Paul Kimberley, vp of
>operation of Starbucks.
>
>To which, potential indiscretions are brought to focus, as promted
>Justin then to raise concern over disparagement from costs exercised
by
>middlemen in proxy to Starbucks.
>
>Starbucks does not buy directly from co-operatives but buys instead
>through other middlemen (as was illustrated in the movie during the
>auction scene) who are clearly taking a cut - leaving less for
>producers. . . .the $1.26 figure as the 'guaranteed' certified fair
>trade is also misleading; this is a minimum figure for non-organic
>coffee and in reality many of us are paying significantly more than
>this. While the movie goes to some lengths to illustrate the benefits
>Ethiopian coffee communities are starting to see from trading with
>supportive fair trade organisations, Mr Kimberley sees fit to both
>challenge the impact of genuine fair trade, and at the same time to
>overstate the comparatively modest efforts his own company is making
>towards addressing coffee farmers' needs. -Justin Purser, Coffee
>Manager, Trade Aid, New Zealand.

Justin, could you explain at what point in coffee that $1.26 is paid?
Is it at the green bean (pre roast) level?

aloha,
Cea
--smithfarms.com
farmers of pure kona
roast beans to kona to email


   
Date: 18 Nov 2006 11:17:03
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!

<beans@smithfarms.com > wrote in message
news:7vdul2dfmqlt5uirg4c3ash7kerbh518k0@4ax.com...
> On 18 Nov 2006 08:16:36 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:
>
> >>Before watching it, Paul wishes to send an important memo regarding
> >poor farmers allegedly making 3 cents on a 3-dollar/US cup of java.
> >
> >As you may be aware, a new film is due to receive its premiere at the
> >London Film Festival and other locations in the coming moth. Black
> gold
> >portrays the coffee industry as a whole, rather than starbucks
> >specifically. Starbucks feels that film is inaccurate and incomplete,
> >as it does not explain how Starbucks purchases coffe, no does it
> >provide any reference to potential solutions to the world coffee
> >crisis. Starbucks takes an integrated approach to coffee purchasing.
> >Our goal is to pay premium praices that provide the coffee farmers
> with
> >a profit. In our financial year 2005, we paid an average price of
> $1.28
> >per pound for our coffee, 23% above the commodity price and
> comparable
> >with the guaranteed Fairtrade price of $1.26. -Paul Kimberley, vp of
> >operation of Starbucks.
> >
> >To which, potential indiscretions are brought to focus, as promted
> >Justin then to raise concern over disparagement from costs exercised
> by
> >middlemen in proxy to Starbucks.
> >
> >Starbucks does not buy directly from co-operatives but buys instead
> >through other middlemen (as was illustrated in the movie during the
> >auction scene) who are clearly taking a cut - leaving less for
> >producers. . . .the $1.26 figure as the 'guaranteed' certified fair
> >trade is also misleading; this is a minimum figure for non-organic
> >coffee and in reality many of us are paying significantly more than
> >this. While the movie goes to some lengths to illustrate the benefits
> >Ethiopian coffee communities are starting to see from trading with
> >supportive fair trade organisations, Mr Kimberley sees fit to both
> >challenge the impact of genuine fair trade, and at the same time to
> >overstate the comparatively modest efforts his own company is making
> >towards addressing coffee farmers' needs. -Justin Purser, Coffee
> >Manager, Trade Aid, New Zealand.
>
> Justin, could you explain at what point in coffee that $1.26 is paid?
> Is it at the green bean (pre roast) level?
>
> aloha,
> Cea
> --smithfarms.com
> farmers of pure kona
> roast beans to kona to email
It's at green bean.
http://www.coffeeresearch.org/politics/fairtrade.htm





    
Date: 18 Nov 2006 10:09:07
From:
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:17:03 -0800, "Johnny"
<removethis.huuanito@hotmail.com > wrote:

>
><beans@smithfarms.com> wrote in message
>news:7vdul2dfmqlt5uirg4c3ash7kerbh518k0@4ax.com...
>> On 18 Nov 2006 08:16:36 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:
>

>It's at green bean.
>http://www.coffeeresearch.org/politics/fairtrade.htm
>
>

Wow! I know you can't compare it to specialty coffee, but here's the
latest near the end of a smaller coffee season in Kona. And as far as
Kona, altitude really does matter in harvesting- quite amazing. So
the lower elevations are pretty much harvested where we up here have a
big round to pick in the next month or so.

So the scramble begins for the cherry buyers and processors and
everyone who does not take their crop to roasted, which we do here on
our farm.

Prices will blow your minds:). The highest price for fresh cherry in
Kona today with 30 day terms is: $1.75 for cherry! And I don't need
to remind anybody it is about 6:1 for green so at that $1.75 cherry
price green here in Kona would be valued at about $10.50 and roasted
at $12.25. There are many more buyers of cherry hovering around the
$1.50/pounds price. Think some big contracts won't be met.

And so $1.26 green sounds pitiful and nothing to brag about. FT
giving farmers money ahead of the full harvest so that they can pay
some extra pickers,matters. However, maybe the "generous" money ahead
of time insures that the men above the farmers get their coffee
beans:(. It is tough aspect of coffee farming and maybe lots of
harvesting, to have to pay out so much for picking help, in cash,
when the returns come in over a year.

thanks Johnny.

aloha,
Cea
--smithfarms.com
farmers of pure kona
roast beans to kona to email


     
Date: 20 Nov 2006 19:24:26
From: Coffee Contact
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!

<beans@smithfarms.com > wrote in message

snip

> And so $1.26 green sounds pitiful and nothing to brag about. FT
> giving farmers money ahead of the full harvest so that they can pay
> some extra pickers,matters.

IIRC the Fair Trade 'Manifesto' indicates that FT farmers do not hire others
to pick their coffee.

Terry M




      
Date: 20 Nov 2006 09:45:07
From:
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:24:26 GMT, "Coffee Contact"
<coffee@nb.aibn.com > wrote:

>
><beans@smithfarms.com> wrote in message
>
>snip
>
>> And so $1.26 green sounds pitiful and nothing to brag about. FT
>> giving farmers money ahead of the full harvest so that they can pay
>> some extra pickers,matters.
>
>IIRC the Fair Trade 'Manifesto' indicates that FT farmers do not hire
others
>to pick their coffee.
>
>Terry M
>

So they all must have very small farms and when their small amounts of
daily pickings are processed, they must be thrown into a general vat
of water (if water processed as opposed to dry) at the processing
plants and there would be no distinguishing one farm from the other.

Picking all day during the harvest if only the farmer and his family
can do it, is extremely difficult. We did it once for 21 days in a
row when we began. (I am not a star picker by any means, but Bob can
do about 100-150 pounds per day. Professional, young, motivated
pickers can pick about 200-250 pounds per day working from early light
until dusk. It does depend on the amount of ripe coffee available that
picking round, and the terrain and of course the rain factor.)

Then I wonder Terry, when the FT farmer is paid ahead of time, is the
money to buy the farmer's whole (small) crop-- when the powers that be
do not know its quality yet? I guess I just don't get it. Or is the
money beforehand to buy food and necessities while the farmer and his
family spend all day, every day, picking?

Just picked last week:) so I am sensitive to it all.

aloha,
Cea
--smithfarms.com
farmers of pure kona
roast beans to kona to email


       
Date: 21 Nov 2006 14:35:14
From: Coffee Contact
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!

<beans@smithfarms.com > wrote >>
>>> And so $1.26 green sounds pitiful and nothing to brag about. FT
>>> giving farmers money ahead of the full harvest so that they can pay
>>> some extra pickers,matters.

>>IIRC the Fair Trade 'Manifesto' indicates that FT farmers do not hire
> others
>>to pick their coffee.
>>
>>Terry M
>>
>
> So they all must have very small farms and when their small amounts of
> daily pickings are processed, they must be thrown into a general vat
> of water (if water processed as opposed to dry) at the processing
> plants and there would be no distinguishing one farm from the other.

I believe that is correct. FT definition: "By small producers are
understood those that are not structurally dependent on hired labour,
managing their farm mainly with their own and their family's labour force; "

> Then I wonder Terry, when the FT farmer is paid ahead of time, is the
> money to buy the farmer's whole (small) crop-- when the powers that be
> do not know its quality yet? I guess I just don't get it. Or is the
> money beforehand to buy food and necessities while the farmer and his
> family spend all day, every day, picking?

Presumably the Fair Trade Co-op would be paid, individual family farms
do not seem to qualify for Fair Trade status.

I don't know how common pre-payment is as a lot of the coffee produced
by FT Co-ops is sold outside the FT system. There is not enough demand for
the low quality, over priced coffee often produced by FT growers. There
seems to be no concept of 'quality' within the Fair Trade System itself, but
they do differentiate between organic and non-organic when fixing prices.

The AVERAGE size of a Fair trade Co-op appears to be about 3500 members,
not just a small group of neighbours (this number derived from dividing the
number of farmers the FLO's claim to represent by the number of Co-ops they
claim to deal with).

Terry M




        
Date: 22 Nov 2006 13:58:50
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
> Presumably the Fair Trade Co-op would be paid, individual family farms
> do not seem to qualify for Fair Trade status.

that is correct - fairtrade is a co-operative system

>
> I don't know how common pre-payment is as a lot of the coffee produced
> by FT Co-ops is sold outside the FT system. There is not enough demand
> for the low quality, over priced coffee often produced by FT growers.
> There seems to be no concept of 'quality' within the Fair Trade System
> itself, but they do differentiate between organic and non-organic when
> fixing prices.
>

quality is in the eye of the...

OK, from my perspective, Fairtrade should promote at origin the growing of a
better quality crop due to the financial incentive of minimum payments. It's
not a perfect system, but it's a start and better than nothing.




         
Date: 22 Nov 2006 01:39:27
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
>Fairtrade should

Fairtrade don't. The "Fairtrade" concept is aimed at setting a minimum price
for the coffee regardless of quality.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




          
Date: 22 Nov 2006 06:03:18
From:
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:39:27 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
<alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:

>>Fairtrade should
>
>Fairtrade don't. The "Fairtrade" concept is aimed at setting a
minimum price
>for the coffee regardless of quality.

That is ridiculous. Why should a consumer buy FT?

aloha,
Cea
--smithfarms.com
farmers of pure kona
roast beans to kona to email


           
Date: 22 Nov 2006 19:11:25
From: Coffee Contact
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!

<beans@smithfarms.com > wrote in message
news:s1t8m2h0doqbglmofatop9ld366k88p4f6@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:39:27 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
> <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Fairtrade don't. The "Fairtrade" concept is aimed at setting a
> minimum price
>>for the coffee regardless of quality.
>
> That is ridiculous. Why should a consumer buy FT?
>
Guilt. Very powerful 'ministry of propaganda' which visits most
churches and universities yearly along with full page ads in newspapers.
Several mainstream Christian churches have bought into this and are
encouraging their congregations to support FT. 'xist theology'- the
message does not have to be fact if is for a 'good cause', basically if you
do not buy coffee with their logo you are responsible for slavery,
environmental disaster, and mass starvation, anyone who is outside the
system is referred to by animal names. Change 'capitalist pig' to 'coyote'
and you could be reading a pamphlets handed out by the xists in the 70's.

Terry M




            
Date: 22 Nov 2006 16:44:23
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:11:25 GMT, "Coffee Contact"
<coffee@nb.aibn.com > wrote:

>
><beans@smithfarms.com> wrote in message
>news:s1t8m2h0doqbglmofatop9ld366k88p4f6@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 01:39:27 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
>> <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>Fairtrade don't. The "Fairtrade" concept is aimed at setting a
>> minimum price
>>>for the coffee regardless of quality.
>>
>> That is ridiculous. Why should a consumer buy FT?
>>
> Guilt.

Bingo.

This week, I was presented with the "opportunity" to bid on a roasting
contract for pre-ground fair trade coffee on a private label. What
a waste of quality green coffee beans. But the consumer will feel
good, while drinking stale coffee, because paying a higher price
somehow demonstrates sensitivity to the plight of 3rd world coffee
farmers.

I encourage folks to donate to coffee charities, such as Coffeekids,
but this business of paying prices higher than ket, even assuming
that the kets are imperfect, is b.s. from my persective. The
difference between charity and paying higher-than-ket prices is a
pure play on emotions and politics.

North Sullivan
(bah, humbug)



    
Date: 19 Nov 2006 08:58:16
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Interesting dvd's about coffee ?!
Cea,

Flasherly is quoting Justin.

I am unsure what "point" the $1.26 is paid, but it is for green not cherry,
the rate for cherry is I belive what is often quoted in the movie.

It's still not much...

Brent

>> On 18 Nov 2006 08:16:36 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>Before watching it, Paul wishes to send an important memo regarding
>> >poor farmers allegedly making 3 cents on a 3-dollar/US cup of java.
>> >
>> >As you may be aware, a new film is due to receive its premiere at the
>> >London Film Festival and other locations in the coming moth. Black
>> gold
>> >portrays the coffee industry as a whole, rather than starbucks
>> >specifically. Starbucks feels that film is inaccurate and incomplete,
>> >as it does not explain how Starbucks purchases coffe, no does it
>> >provide any reference to potential solutions to the world coffee
>> >crisis. Starbucks takes an integrated approach to coffee purchasing.
>> >Our goal is to pay premium praices that provide the coffee farmers
>> with
>> >a profit. In our financial year 2005, we paid an average price of
>> $1.28
>> >per pound for our coffee, 23% above the commodity price and
>> comparable
>> >with the guaranteed Fairtrade price of $1.26. -Paul Kimberley, vp of
>> >operation of Starbucks.
>> >
>> >To which, potential indiscretions are brought to focus, as promted
>> >Justin then to raise concern over disparagement from costs exercised
>> by
>> >middlemen in proxy to Starbucks.
>> >
>> >Starbucks does not buy directly from co-operatives but buys instead
>> >through other middlemen (as was illustrated in the movie during the
>> >auction scene) who are clearly taking a cut - leaving less for
>> >producers. . . .the $1.26 figure as the 'guaranteed' certified fair
>> >trade is also misleading; this is a minimum figure for non-organic
>> >coffee and in reality many of us are paying significantly more than
>> >this. While the movie goes to some lengths to illustrate the benefits
>> >Ethiopian coffee communities are starting to see from trading with
>> >supportive fair trade organisations, Mr Kimberley sees fit to both
>> >challenge the impact of genuine fair trade, and at the same time to
>> >overstate the comparatively modest efforts his own company is making
>> >towards addressing coffee farmers' needs. -Justin Purser, Coffee
>> >Manager, Trade Aid, New Zealand.
>>
>> Justin, could you explain at what point in coffee that $1.26 is paid?
>> Is it at the green bean (pre roast) level?
>>
>> aloha,
>> Cea
>> --smithfarms.com
>> farmers of pure kona
>> roast beans to kona to email
> It's at green bean.
> http://www.coffeeresearch.org/politics/fairtrade.htm
>
>
>