coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main
Date: 02 Jan 2007 19:36:00
From: Marshall
Subject: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
Surprise! It's 4 parts milk to 1 part espresso. Low-fat milk need not
apply. http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html

shall




 
Date: 04 Jan 2007 08:57:15
From: James Hoffmann
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
The problem with a lot of coffee history - certainly key events - is
that it is very hard to get any consistency of information.

Books like Jacob's "Saga of Coffee" from 1935 (whilst being a great
read) are full to the brim with artistic licence (the text contains
conversations Kolschitsky has on his sabotage mission) and pure
romance. The trouble is this sort of writing is all too often
incorporated into texts by lazy authors doing yet another coffee book
(which is just everyone else's coffee books recycled for the umpteenth
time) and soon it is everywhere being presented as hard fact. Even
Uker's often has another agenda in his writing.

(Jacobs book on bread is a good read too)

I suppose it would help if I spoke German and could read some of the
texts written by Austrians. Plus I really ought to get over there for
a visit....


i840coffee@optonline.net wrote:

> Jim Schulman may be right.
>
> Franz George Kolschitsky, was among the few to bring a knowledge of
> coffee in Vienna in the time prior to the Ottoman siege of the city in
> 1683. Others possibly knew of the beverage prior to the siege as the
> Turks had a diplomatic embassy in Vienna since 1665. A hero in the
> Siege of Vienna, he was rewarded with sacks of coffee left behind by
> the Turkish invaders on their departure after the Battle of Vienna on
> September 12, 1683, but Kolschitsky may not have been the fiorst to
> have a coffeehouse in that city.
>
> Kolschitsky first sold his stash of beans from house to house,
> "Later," according to Ukers' All About Coffee (1922)"he
> established the first public booth where Turkish coffee was served in
> Vienna." Later he lobbied the municipal fathers to gift him a house,
> as further payment for his help during the siege. They granted him a
> deed to a house in the Haidgasse in 1785 where he opened a caf=E9 "at
> the sign of the blue bottle" On January 17th of that same year
> Johannes Diodato (either a Greek or Armenian national depending on the
> written source) was granted a municipal license to operate a
> coffeehouse which he did in the house where he resided at Haarkt,
> today Rotenturmstrasse 14. It is possible, by virtue of the January
> dating of the license to Diodato, that his house was operating before
> that of Kolschitsky.
>
> Ukers' also reports, "In the city records for the year 1700 a house
> in the Stock-im-Eisen-Platz (square) is designated by the words
> "allow das erste kaffeegewalbe" ("here was the first
> coffeehouse"). Unfortunately, the name of the proprietor is not
> given."
>
> The truth of the first coffeehouse operator, licensed or "un" may
> never be known. I like the Kolschitsky legend, and so did his
> tradesmen, for the guild of coffeehouse keepers (kaffesieder) erected
> a statue in Vienna in Kolschitsky's honor.
>
> Starbucks opened their first coffeehouses in Vienna in Summer 2005.
> There is no discussion of raising a statue to Mr. Schultz.
>
> "When the legend becomes the truth, print the legend" is a line from
> the 1962 film, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
>=20
> -Donald Schoenholt



 
Date: 03 Jan 2007 20:00:51
From:
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino

Jim Schulman may be right.

Franz George Kolschitsky, was among the few to bring a knowledge of
coffee in Vienna in the time prior to the Ottoman siege of the city in
1683. Others possibly knew of the beverage prior to the siege as the
Turks had a diplomatic embassy in Vienna since 1665. A hero in the
Siege of Vienna, he was rewarded with sacks of coffee left behind by
the Turkish invaders on their departure after the Battle of Vienna on
September 12, 1683, but Kolschitsky may not have been the fiorst to
have a coffeehouse in that city.

Kolschitsky first sold his stash of beans from house to house,
"Later," according to Ukers' All About Coffee (1922)"he
established the first public booth where Turkish coffee was served in
Vienna." Later he lobbied the municipal fathers to gift him a house,
as further payment for his help during the siege. They granted him a
deed to a house in the Haidgasse in 1785 where he opened a caf=E9 "at
the sign of the blue bottle" On January 17th of that same year
Johannes Diodato (either a Greek or Armenian national depending on the
written source) was granted a municipal license to operate a
coffeehouse which he did in the house where he resided at Haarkt,
today Rotenturmstrasse 14. It is possible, by virtue of the January
dating of the license to Diodato, that his house was operating before
that of Kolschitsky.

Ukers' also reports, "In the city records for the year 1700 a house
in the Stock-im-Eisen-Platz (square) is designated by the words
"allow das erste kaffeegewalbe" ("here was the first
coffeehouse"). Unfortunately, the name of the proprietor is not
given."

The truth of the first coffeehouse operator, licensed or "un" may
never be known. I like the Kolschitsky legend, and so did his
tradesmen, for the guild of coffeehouse keepers (kaffesieder) erected
a statue in Vienna in Kolschitsky's honor.

Starbucks opened their first coffeehouses in Vienna in Summer 2005.
There is no discussion of raising a statue to Mr. Schultz.

"When the legend becomes the truth, print the legend" is a line from
the 1962 film, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

-Donald Schoenholt



  
Date: 04 Jan 2007 10:01:12
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On 3 Jan 2007 20:00:51 -0800, i840coffee@optonline.net wrote:

>
>Jim Schulman may be right.
>
>Franz George Kolschitsky, was among the few to bring a knowledge of
>coffee in Vienna in the time prior to the Ottoman siege of the city in
>1683. Others possibly knew of the beverage prior to the siege as the
>Turks had a diplomatic embassy in Vienna since 1665 ....

Guess I wasn't. Official records and actual events like drinking
coffee aren't usually the same.


  
Date: 03 Jan 2007 20:37:20
From:
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On 3 Jan 2007 20:00:51 -0800, i840coffee@optonline.net wrote:

>
>Jim Schulman may be right.

One thing I've noticed over the years: There's no "may be" about it.
This is one guy who has his coffee facts right.











_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


 
Date: 03 Jan 2007 06:12:12
From:
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
James, I think somehow the eliments of three different coffee tales
have been inadvertantly intertwined. 1) co D'Aviano played a role in
the Battle of Vienna. 2) Franz Kolschitsky introduced coffee to
Vienna. 3) The use of coffee by the capuchin order (to which D'co
belonged) for whom the cappuccino may have been named. Any historical
citation to the contrary would be welcome.


Donald Schoenholt



  
Date: 03 Jan 2007 10:41:27
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On 3 Jan 2007 06:12:12 -0800, i840coffee@optonline.net wrote:

>James, I think somehow the eliments of three different coffee tales
>have been inadvertantly intertwined. 1) co D'Aviano played a role in
>the Battle of Vienna. 2) Franz Kolschitsky introduced coffee to
>Vienna. 3) The use of coffee by the capuchin order (to which D'co
>belonged) for whom the cappuccino may have been named. Any historical
>citation to the contrary would be welcome.
>
When it comes to "who did it first," the Italians and Austrians have
been fighting the cold war since 1850. So it's no surprise to see
Italians taking some inflammatory credit for the first Viennese coffee
house.

However, it appears that in this case the credit goes to neither
Italians nor Austrians, but to a Greek, Johannes Theodat, who opened
the first officially documented cafe in Vienna in 1685, one year
before Kolschitzki's Blue Bottle.

>http://www.vienna.cc/ekaffeeh.htm


 
Date: 02 Jan 2007 14:39:08
From: James Hoffmann
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
The milk thing comes from the Italians being southern European oil
eaters, unlike the northern European butter eaters, and therefore -
like many mediterraneans, are lactose intolerrant. 1 glass a day will
cause no ill effect, but more than that gives you bad guts. Hence only
one cappuccino a day, usually in the morning when it is most
appealling.


shall wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 15:28:56 -0500, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >Something is wrong with the math in the article. They say start with 125ml
> >milk and 25 ml espresso, foam the milk , then add everything to a 150 to
> >160 ml cup. If you double the volume of milk in the foaming then it won't
> >fit in the cup. For a 150 ml "single" cap you'd want to start with around
> >60 ml (2 fl. oz.) of milk to end up with 4 fl. oz. of steamed milk and foam.
> >So really the coffee to (pre-steaming) milk ratio is 1 to 2.
>
> Which might be what they actually meant.
>
> The culinary lore about milk causing indigestion after noon was
> amusing. Maybe the real concern is going to bed with a belly full of
> milk.
>
> shall



  
Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:46:26
From:
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On 2 Jan 2007 14:39:08 -0800, "James Hoffmann" <kingseven@gmail.com >
wrote:

>The milk thing comes from the Italians being southern European oil
>eaters, unlike the northern European butter eaters, and therefore -
>like many mediterraneans, are lactose intolerrant. 1 glass a day will
>cause no ill effect, but more than that gives you bad guts. Hence only
>one cappuccino a day, usually in the morning when it is most
>appealling.
>
>
>
As a lactose-intolerant, southern European oil-eater, I can add at
least one data point that attests to the validity of Mr. Hoffman's
post. I can have a macchiato in the morning with the left-over milk
from the (northern European, butter-eater) love-of-my-life's latte,
but any milk after that and it gets pretty nasty for others in the
room. A bean eater is a rank amateur by comparison.






_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


 
Date: 02 Jan 2007 14:32:47
From: shane
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
Thanks, for posting the link. I have been trying, in vain, to explain
to people that espresso needs a 25 second shot time.

Shane



jim schulman wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 15:13:49 -0600, jim schulman
> <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >I couldn't get to the INEI site today
>
> They've changed it all around, so it's even more difficult to
> navigate. The officila espresso definition is now a PDF:
> > http://www.espressoitaliano.org/doc/EIC%20-%20Eng%20-%20LQ.pdf
>
> Nothing at all about the cappa definition.



 
Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:28:56
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
Something is wrong with the math in the article. They say start with 125ml
milk and 25 ml espresso, foam the milk , then add everything to a 150 to
160 ml cup. If you double the volume of milk in the foaming then it won't
fit in the cup. For a 150 ml "single" cap you'd want to start with around
60 ml (2 fl. oz.) of milk to end up with 4 fl. oz. of steamed milk and foam.
So really the coffee to (pre-steaming) milk ratio is 1 to 2.





"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:iuclp2l2aht5atti5vqq5ue2vkte3ba3bg@4ax.com...
> Surprise! It's 4 parts milk to 1 part espresso. Low-fat milk need not
> apply. http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html
>
> shall




  
Date: 02 Jan 2007 14:16:20
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:ueadnaYYfKEUXQfYnZ2dnUVZ_t2tnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Something is wrong with the math in the article. They say start with
> 125ml milk and 25 ml espresso, foam the milk , then add everything to a
> 150 to 160 ml cup. If you double the volume of milk in the foaming then
> it won't fit in the cup. For a 150 ml "single" cap you'd want to start
> with around 60 ml (2 fl. oz.) of milk to end up with 4 fl. oz. of steamed
> milk and foam. So really the coffee to (pre-steaming) milk ratio is 1 to
> 2.
>

I always suspected the Italians were "math challenged." Back in the bad of
days of the Italian Lire, it was common to receive change that was off by at
least a zero (factor of ten), if not two, but always in the favor of the
vendor or counter person. I always thought that this was petty dishonesty,
praying on tourists' propensity to become confused with all those zeros,
however now we realize that their school math education is deficient and
this puts it all into better perspective.

ken
;-)




  
Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:13:49
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 15:28:56 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>Something is wrong with the math in the article. They say start with 125ml
>milk and 25 ml espresso, foam the milk , then add everything to a 150 to
>160 ml cup. If you double the volume of milk in the foaming then it won't
>fit in the cup. For a 150 ml "single" cap you'd want to start with around
>60 ml (2 fl. oz.) of milk to end up with 4 fl. oz. of steamed milk and foam.
>So really the coffee to (pre-steaming) milk ratio is 1 to 2.

I couldn't get to the INEI site today; but I was guessing that the
125mL was for two cappas made via the double spout.


   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:19:55
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 15:13:49 -0600, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>I couldn't get to the INEI site today

They've changed it all around, so it's even more difficult to
navigate. The officila espresso definition is now a PDF:
> http://www.espressoitaliano.org/doc/EIC%20-%20Eng%20-%20LQ.pdf

Nothing at all about the cappa definition.


  
Date: 02 Jan 2007 21:12:04
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 15:28:56 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>Something is wrong with the math in the article. They say start with 125ml
>milk and 25 ml espresso, foam the milk , then add everything to a 150 to
>160 ml cup. If you double the volume of milk in the foaming then it won't
>fit in the cup. For a 150 ml "single" cap you'd want to start with around
>60 ml (2 fl. oz.) of milk to end up with 4 fl. oz. of steamed milk and foam.
>So really the coffee to (pre-steaming) milk ratio is 1 to 2.

Which might be what they actually meant.

The culinary lore about milk causing indigestion after noon was
amusing. Maybe the real concern is going to bed with a belly full of
milk.

shall


 
Date: 02 Jan 2007 12:21:30
From: James Hoffmann
Subject: Re: Italy certies the "official" cappuccino
"while others credit Capuchin monk co D'Aviano with the invention of
the drink, after he discovered a sack of coffee captured from the
Ottomans during the battle of Vienna in 1683. D'Aviano was beatified in
2003 for his missionary work and miraculous power of healing."

That is an impressive mish-mash of coffee myth!

The people at the INEI are very nice, though sometimes a little rigid
in their definitions....


shall wrote:

> Surprise! It's 4 parts milk to 1 part espresso. Low-fat milk need not
> apply. http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,1980914,00.html
>
> shall