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Date: 14 Jun 2007 07:09:13
From: NSN
Subject: Kona Question
I bought 5 pounds of Kona from Cea (Smith Farms) about 6 weeks ago. I
also bought some of my favorite beans from Compass Creek...also 5
pounds.

I placed both in 1 pound FoodSaver vacuum canisters. After 1 week the
canisters with the Kona beans had lost their vacuum .. all 5 !! The
Compass Creek canisters were perfect. I thought that the FoodSaver
canisters might be defective so I repackaged the Kona in quart sized
canning jars. Just to keep things even, I did the same with the
Compass Creek. After about 7 days, just as before, all the Kona jars
had lost their vacuum. The CC jars were perfect.

I re-vacuumed the Kona beans and after about 10 days checked them all.
All had some vacuum left but not much .. the lids came off with
minimal effort. I vacuumed them out again. The CC beans had the
original good strong vacuum and did not need any resealing.

So .. what is going on? Obviously, the Kona beans are releasing
something that is counteracting the vacuum. Has anyone experienced
this phenomenon?

Love that Kona !!!!

Norm




 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 19:47:55
From: bk
Subject: Re: Kona Question
I agree with the freeze once philosphy if your going to freeze at
all. I'm not sold on the freezer keeping beans fresh for extended
periods of time, so I'll stick to roasting every week or two. But I
do know if you take frozen beans out of the freezer, and then put the
bag back in you will get condensation in the bag.
I will once again mention home roasting, get an iroast or one of the
other small roasters and roast a batch or two every week. Its fairly
simple to get good results after just a couple batches.

ttfn
-bradk



 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 10:20:35
From:
Subject: Re: Kona Question
I think I stand corrected. I have always been told by reputable
sources that freezing could permanently alter volatile flavor
compounds. The assertion seemed reasonable enough, and the sources
were otherwise reliable, so I believed it. That said, I have never
seen empirical data to support the claim.

After Alan called me on it, I did some looking into it. There are
thousands of coffee companies across the web discouraging the freezing
of freshly-roasted, whole bean coffee for reasons from exposure to
aroma taints to exposure to condensation upon thawing, to statements
similar to mine regarding flavor compounds. However, none of the
aforementioned companies offer data to support the anti-freeze
caveat.

The first two reasons given by the anti-freezers are surmountable with
proper packaging and handling, i.e. make sure NO moisture is in the
container in which you freeze the coffee and NO air can get to it
while it is frozen. Give the coffee adequate time to come to room
temp and shed condensation after removing it from the freezer. Only
freeze once to prevent said condensation from being refrozen with the
bean which would absolutely alter the structure.

In favor of freezing, there is a very thorough article at the
following link
http://www.home-barista.com/store-coffee-in-freezer.html
Their study seems to side with Alan.

Irrefutably, there are oils within the bean which congeal during
freezing. Do they reconstitute identically? I guess I must say
ultimately that I am not certain.

At the end of the day though, I would rather buy just enough to get me
through a week-even if that meant that sometimes I'd have to
substitute equally good/fresh, but more affordable/available coffees
for the Kona. (Begging your pardon, Cea)

Thoughts?
PRS



 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 03:44:39
From:
Subject: Re: Kona Question
"I will consider getting 5x1 pound bags from Cea rather than 1x 5
pound bag and keep the unused bags in the freezer. OH OH .. did I
just start another thread about freezing?"

Ouch. Room temp is definitely best. The carefully roasted pit of a
cherry appears simple, but there are actually innumerable complex
flavor compounds/solubles within roasted coffee. There is evidence to
suggest that such compounds are altered by the freeze/thaw. On
ordering, though, you're spot on--the 5 X 1 is definitely a better
move. Enjoy, and thanks for the discussion inducing posts.
PRS



  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 12:34:24
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Kona Question
>There is evidence to
>suggest that such compounds are altered by the freeze/thaw.

Oh no there's not! (The 5 pound argument.)


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 17:28:58
From:
Subject: Re: Kona Question
Norm--good question. As a roaster (unaffiliated with Smith Farms), I
have to tip my hat to Smith Farms--that is really impressive that they
are roasting/bagging/shipping quickly enough for you to receive it
from Hawaii and still experience the effects of much of the
degassing! Brad is absolutely right on all suggestions, especially on
not buying too much at once. If you continue to vac canister your
beans, leave them as-is even after it appears that the vacuum is
gone. The CO2 kicked off by the beans creates an additional
"preservative" layer in the canister. CO2 is heavier than most
atmospheric gasses, and will push to the top of the canister any
oxygen that remains after you've vacced them. Opening them to reseal
only exposes them to unnecessary oxidation. Also, I am dissapointed
to hear that you're not experiencing the same issue with Compass
Creek--not a good sign. Good question; good attention to detail
(among the keys to great coffee); and hats of to Cea for a job well-
done!
PRS




  
Date: 14 Jun 2007 12:53:47
From:
Subject: Re: Kona Question
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:28:58 -0000, espressosmith@gmail.com wrote:

>Norm--good question. As a roaster (unaffiliated with Smith Farms), I
>have to tip my hat to Smith Farms--that is really impressive that they
>are roasting/bagging/shipping quickly enough for you to receive it
>from Hawaii and still experience the effects of much of the
>degassing! Brad is absolutely right on all suggestions, especially on
>not buying too much at once. If you continue to vac canister your
>beans, leave them as-is even after it appears that the vacuum is
>gone. The CO2 kicked off by the beans creates an additional
>"preservative" layer in the canister. CO2 is heavier than most
>atmospheric gasses, and will push to the top of the canister any
>oxygen that remains after you've vacced them. Opening them to reseal
>only exposes them to unnecessary oxidation. Also, I am dissapointed
>to hear that you're not experiencing the same issue with Compass
>Creek--not a good sign. Good question; good attention to detail
>(among the keys to great coffee); and hats of to Cea for a job well-
>done!
>PRS
>
Thanks for the compliments "espresso of the excellent last name:)".

We learned many years ago that fresh was best and we totally agree. We
were lucky enough a few years ago to have a roaster built, just for
Bob, on our back porch. (That's what he is doing as I type here.) So
we can regulate when we are roasting, anticipating the mail services
of the next day.

We want people to get their moneys worth from us always.

Thanks again. You all made our day!

aloha,
Cea



roast beans to kona to email
farmers of Pure Kona


   
Date: 14 Jun 2007 17:51:46
From: NSN
Subject: Re: Kona Question
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:53:47 -1000, beans@smithfarms.com wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:28:58 -0000, espressosmith@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>Norm--good question. As a roaster (unaffiliated with Smith Farms), I
>>have to tip my hat to Smith Farms--that is really impressive that they
>>are roasting/bagging/shipping quickly enough for you to receive it
>>from Hawaii and still experience the effects of much of the
>>degassing! Brad is absolutely right on all suggestions, especially on
>>not buying too much at once. If you continue to vac canister your
>>beans, leave them as-is even after it appears that the vacuum is
>>gone. The CO2 kicked off by the beans creates an additional
>>"preservative" layer in the canister. CO2 is heavier than most
>>atmospheric gasses, and will push to the top of the canister any
>>oxygen that remains after you've vacced them. Opening them to reseal
>>only exposes them to unnecessary oxidation. Also, I am dissapointed
>>to hear that you're not experiencing the same issue with Compass
>>Creek--not a good sign. Good question; good attention to detail
>>(among the keys to great coffee); and hats of to Cea for a job well-
>>done!
>>PRS
>>
>Thanks for the compliments "espresso of the excellent last name:)".
>
>We learned many years ago that fresh was best and we totally agree. We
>were lucky enough a few years ago to have a roaster built, just for
>Bob, on our back porch. (That's what he is doing as I type here.) So
>we can regulate when we are roasting, anticipating the mail services
>of the next day.
>
>We want people to get their moneys worth from us always.
>
>Thanks again. You all made our day!
>
>aloha,
>Cea
>
>
>
>roast beans to kona to email
> farmers of Pure Kona

Thanks to all for solving my problem .. which turns out to be a
non-problem. It is interesting that not a single canister of Kona
retained its vacuum and not a single canister of Compass Creek lost
its vacuum. No question that the Kona is fresh! In view of the
study, it appears the CC is a bit old when shipped.

In any event, my wife and I both prefer the Kona by far so in the
future that is what we will be drinking. I will consider getting 5x1
pound bags from Cea rather than 1x 5 pound bag and keep the unused
bags in the freezer. OH OH .. did I just start another thread about
freezing?

Norm



 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 06:12:38
From:
Subject: Re: Kona Question
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:09:13 -0700, NSN <nsn@mail.com > wrote:

>I bought 5 pounds of Kona from Cea (Smith Farms) about 6 weeks ago. I
>also bought some of my favorite beans from Compass Creek...also 5
>pounds.
>
>I placed both in 1 pound FoodSaver vacuum canisters. After 1 week the
>canisters with the Kona beans had lost their vacuum .. all 5 !! The
>Compass Creek canisters were perfect. I thought that the FoodSaver
>canisters might be defective so I repackaged the Kona in quart sized
>canning jars. Just to keep things even, I did the same with the
>Compass Creek. After about 7 days, just as before, all the Kona jars
>had lost their vacuum. The CC jars were perfect.
>
>I re-vacuumed the Kona beans and after about 10 days checked them all.
>All had some vacuum left but not much .. the lids came off with
>minimal effort. I vacuumed them out again. The CC beans had the
>original good strong vacuum and did not need any resealing.
>
>So .. what is going on? Obviously, the Kona beans are releasing
>something that is counteracting the vacuum. Has anyone experienced
>this phenomenon?
>
>Love that Kona !!!!
>
>Norm

Oh thank you Norm for your kind words in the midst of a dilemma:)

I asked Bob as he is the resident scientist. He thinks maybe, that
because we send our coffee out the day it is roasted or maybe the very
next day, our coffee continued to out-gas and lose the vacuum? Just a
guess. Just perhaps the other coffee was a bit older and more stable.

aloha,
Cea

roast beans to kona to email
farmers of Pure Kona


 
Date: 14 Jun 2007 14:54:05
From: bk
Subject: Re: Kona Question

> So .. what is going on? Obviously, the Kona beans are releasing
> something that is counteracting the vacuum. Has anyone experienced
> this phenomenon?
The beans are just degassing. This means that your smithfarms beans
were roasted freshly before they were shipped. All beans after
roasting release co2, that is why most coffee bags have the little
plastic release valve on them(lets it out but doesnt let air in.)
Buying 10lbs of roasted beans at once is probably too much(unless you
drink a really lot of coffee.) The beans will go stale, I like to
keep my whole roasted beans no more then 2 weeks. And grind right
when needed. Your probably better off leaving them in the bag they
ship with from Smithfarms for storage in cool dry place out of
sunlight. I know shipping is expensive from hawaii so its cheaper to
get a big order but the beans are so good its a shame to let them go
stale. Have you thought of home roasting? Green beans last for
months(6 months is common) and you roast a weeks worth at a time.

ttfn
-bradk



  
Date: 14 Jun 2007 06:13:52
From:
Subject: Re: Kona Question
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:54:05 -0000, bk <jhogan@bizank.com > wrote:

>
>> So .. what is going on? Obviously, the Kona beans are releasing
>> something that is counteracting the vacuum. Has anyone experienced
>> this phenomenon?
> The beans are just degassing. This means that your smithfarms beans
>were roasted freshly before they were shipped. All beans after
>roasting release co2, that is why most coffee bags have the little
>plastic release valve on them(lets it out but doesnt let air in.)
>Buying 10lbs of roasted beans at once is probably too much(unless you
>drink a really lot of coffee.) The beans will go stale, I like to
>keep my whole roasted beans no more then 2 weeks. And grind right
>when needed. Your probably better off leaving them in the bag they
>ship with from Smithfarms for storage in cool dry place out of
>sunlight. I know shipping is expensive from hawaii so its cheaper to
>get a big order but the beans are so good its a shame to let them go
>stale. Have you thought of home roasting? Green beans last for
>months(6 months is common) and you roast a weeks worth at a time.
>
>ttfn
>-bradk

Hey thanks. We are in agreement.

aloha,
Cea
roast beans to kona to email
farmers of Pure Kona