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Date: 08 May 2007 04:15:56
From: kramerica
Subject: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
hey everyone,
What's the deal with these naked PFs? Are there any real advantages
over regular ones? if so, why they don't come with the machines and
only as an aftermarket purchase?

Thanks a lot..





 
Date: 08 May 2007 06:30:12
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
On May 8, 8:27 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> kramerica wrote:
> > hey everyone,
> > What's the deal with these naked PFs? Are there any real advantages
> > over regular ones? if so, why they don't come with the machines and
> > only as an aftermarket purchase?
>
> > Thanks a lot..
>
> Firstly, they are an aid to check your pulls. They will show up bad
> distribution and tamping issues.
>
> Secondly, they do seem to improve the quality of shots, but this is
> very subjective. I personally prefer shots pulled with the bottomless
> pf - they seem creamier and have a nicer mouthfeel. They are also
> sweeter - I am able to drink them without sugar, which I can't do with
> the regular pf.
>
> As to why they don't come with the machine - they are a fairly recent
> innovation, and are only recently becoming available from parts'
> suppliers etc. They also only pour a single stream, whereas most
> machines pull doubles through two spouts, for two singles, so there
> are disadvantages. They are also very messy if you don't get your
> technique right :)
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)


In addition to all of the above, they're a lot easier to keep clean -
no internal parts to try to clean out, like with spouts and the solid
area under the basket, etc. Although that's occasionally paid for with
the mess of an occasional off-direction pin sized stream of coffee
that might go off at any angle. But if your technique is good, that
won't happen often enough to worry about.

They're also sort of cool to watch as the shot pours.

-Ray



 
Date: 08 May 2007 13:27:20
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
kramerica wrote:
> hey everyone,
> What's the deal with these naked PFs? Are there any real advantages
> over regular ones? if so, why they don't come with the machines and
> only as an aftermarket purchase?
>
> Thanks a lot..
>

Firstly, they are an aid to check your pulls. They will show up bad
distribution and tamping issues.

Secondly, they do seem to improve the quality of shots, but this is
very subjective. I personally prefer shots pulled with the bottomless
pf - they seem creamier and have a nicer mouthfeel. They are also
sweeter - I am able to drink them without sugar, which I can't do with
the regular pf.

As to why they don't come with the machine - they are a fairly recent
innovation, and are only recently becoming available from parts'
suppliers etc. They also only pour a single stream, whereas most
machines pull doubles through two spouts, for two singles, so there
are disadvantages. They are also very messy if you don't get your
technique right :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



  
Date: 08 May 2007 09:37:35
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
On Tue, 08 May 2007 13:27:20 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

>kramerica wrote:
>> hey everyone,
>> What's the deal with these naked PFs? Are there any real advantages
>> over regular ones? if so, why they don't come with the machines and
>> only as an aftermarket purchase?
>>
>> Thanks a lot..
>>
>
>Firstly, they are an aid to check your pulls. They will show up bad
>distribution and tamping issues.
>
But give you little clue about what to do about it.

Claims abound that a pull starting as an outer ring and migrating to
the center over a few seconds is 'normal', when taste clearly tells
such shots lack focus with an excess of both over and underextracted
components.

>Secondly, they do seem to improve the quality of shots, but this is
>very subjective. I personally prefer shots pulled with the bottomless
>pf - they seem creamier and have a nicer mouthfeel. They are also
>sweeter - I am able to drink them without sugar, which I can't do with
>the regular pf.
>

Some find shots from them more 'coffee' and less 'espresso', exactly
the opposite.

>As to why they don't come with the machine - they are a fairly recent
>innovation, and are only recently becoming available from parts'
>suppliers etc. They also only pour a single stream, whereas most
>machines pull doubles through two spouts, for two singles, so there
>are disadvantages. They are also very messy if you don't get your
>technique right :)

Margins are slim on espresso machine. Only the seriously bent require
a BPF, so for the majority of purchasers it is a waste

If BPFs replaced standard PFs, the resulting mess would ensure a rapid
return to vendor.


   
Date: 08 May 2007 13:54:31
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
I- >Ian wrote:

>>>
>> Firstly, they are an aid to check your pulls. They will show up bad
>> distribution and tamping issues.
>>
> But give you little clue about what to do about it.

Yeah, but most people seem to be able to figure it out and get it right.
Have you used one?

>
> Claims abound that a pull starting as an outer ring and migrating to
> the center over a few seconds is 'normal', when taste clearly tells
> such shots lack focus with an excess of both over and underextracted
> components.

At that point, just coming off the basket, why would it be any different
than a pf with a bottom and spouts? The cut pf shot has much more crema
for sure. Are your tasting skills so well developed that you can tell
if a shot is a mixture of over and under extracted components?
Theoretically, wouldn't every shot be a mixture of over and under
extracted components?

>
>> Secondly, they do seem to improve the quality of shots, but this is
>> very subjective. I personally prefer shots pulled with the bottomless
>> pf - they seem creamier and have a nicer mouthfeel. They are also
>> sweeter - I am able to drink them without sugar, which I can't do with
>> the regular pf.
>>
>
> Some find shots from them more 'coffee' and less 'espresso', exactly
> the opposite.

Do you have a reference? I've never heard that. Do you find this taste
difference?

>
>> As to why they don't come with the machine - they are a fairly recent
>> innovation, and are only recently becoming available from parts'
>> suppliers etc. They also only pour a single stream, whereas most
>> machines pull doubles through two spouts, for two singles, so there
>> are disadvantages. They are also very messy if you don't get your
>> technique right :)
>
> Margins are slim on espresso machine. Only the seriously bent require
> a BPF, so for the majority of purchasers it is a waste

If you're referring to the majority of users as those who use stale
pre-ground coffee then, yeah they are a waste.

>
> If BPFs replaced standard PFs, the resulting mess would ensure a rapid
> return to vendor.

They're not recommended for stale coffee and bad technique.

R "seriously bent" TF


    
Date: 08 May 2007 12:02:41
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
On Tue, 08 May 2007 13:54:31 -0400, Moka Java <rtwatches@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>I->Ian wrote:
>
>>>>
>>> Firstly, they are an aid to check your pulls. They will show up bad
>>> distribution and tamping issues.
>>>
>> But give you little clue about what to do about it.
>
>Yeah, but most people seem to be able to figure it out and get it right.
> Have you used one?
>

Yes. I bought one rather than pay shipping charges on a small order.
After a couple weeks, I determined that I did not care for the taste
and found the espressopourn terminally boring. The next time I used it
was the Home Barista Tamper Roadshow. Yikes! What a mess! My first
exposure to sprites was with some of the more radical piston shapes.

Every so often, say every couple of months, I use it for a week just
for grins. Last week, every shot I pulled started evenly, did not
channel and blonded at ~50ml ~25 seconds after the first drops. Not a
single sprite.
>>
>> Claims abound that a pull starting as an outer ring and migrating to
>> the center over a few seconds is 'normal', when taste clearly tells
>> such shots lack focus with an excess of both over and underextracted
>> components.
>
>At that point, just coming off the basket, why would it be any different
>than a pf with a bottom and spouts? The cut pf shot has much more crema
>for sure.
Really? I use a single PF with spout removed and pull into clear tulip
shaped cups. For my 2d, it's swings and roundabouts on the crema.

> Are your tasting skills so well developed that you can tell
>if a shot is a mixture of over and under extracted components?

If you can delude yourself into thinking a BPF improves technique, I
can delude myself about my palette. <vbg >

>Theoretically, wouldn't every shot be a mixture of over and under
>extracted components?
>

Indeed, but the range is more compact when the shot flows evenly from
start to finish.

>>
>>> Secondly, they do seem to improve the quality of shots, but this is
>>> very subjective. I personally prefer shots pulled with the bottomless
>>> pf - they seem creamier and have a nicer mouthfeel. They are also
>>> sweeter - I am able to drink them without sugar, which I can't do with
>>> the regular pf.
>>>
>>
>> Some find shots from them more 'coffee' and less 'espresso', exactly
>> the opposite.
>
>Do you have a reference? I've never heard that. Do you find this taste
>difference?
>

It's been posted a few times. Saturday, after using the BPF all week,
on my second shot I thought "There's something wrong here... Hang on!
You're using the BPF!" This Monday, I went back to the single and no
problems. I realize this is completely unscientific and only
supportable by my impressions.

>>
>>> As to why they don't come with the machine - they are a fairly recent
>>> innovation, and are only recently becoming available from parts'
>>> suppliers etc. They also only pour a single stream, whereas most
>>> machines pull doubles through two spouts, for two singles, so there
>>> are disadvantages. They are also very messy if you don't get your
>>> technique right :)
>>
>> Margins are slim on espresso machine. Only the seriously bent require
>> a BPF, so for the majority of purchasers it is a waste
>
>If you're referring to the majority of users as those who use stale
>pre-ground coffee then, yeah they are a waste.
>

The number of people who hold the tamper like a gear shift and expect
to make a level tamp is mind boggling. I'd be willing to wager that a
simple engineers pocket ruler with depth slide would do more than a
BPF to improve shot quality.

>>
>> If BPFs replaced standard PFs, the resulting mess would ensure a rapid
>> return to vendor.
>
>They're not recommended for stale coffee and bad technique.
>

>R "seriously bent" TF
Redundant. You're posting on alt.coffee <vbg >


     
Date: 08 May 2007 19:41:41
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
I- >Ian wrote:
> On Tue, 08 May 2007 13:54:31 -0400, Moka Java <rtwatches@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I->Ian wrote:
>>
>>>> Firstly, they are an aid to check your pulls. They will show up bad
>>>> distribution and tamping issues.
>>>>
>>> But give you little clue about what to do about it.
>> Yeah, but most people seem to be able to figure it out and get it right.
>> Have you used one?
>>
>
> Yes. I bought one rather than pay shipping charges on a small order.

I had access to a drill press and the right size hole saw.

> After a couple weeks, I determined that I did not care for the taste
> and found the espressopourn terminally boring.

I rarely look but it's nice to know it's there.

The next time I used it
> was the Home Barista Tamper Roadshow. Yikes! What a mess! My first
> exposure to sprites was with some of the more radical piston shapes.

NOt familiar with the event but I've been out of the loop for a while.
I don't get many messes but have been using the same SS tamper for years.

>
> Every so often, say every couple of months, I use it for a week just
> for grins. Last week, every shot I pulled started evenly, did not
> channel and blonded at ~50ml ~25 seconds after the first drops. Not a
> single sprite.

I get a spritz now and them but have been pulling faster shots shooting
for 1.5 oz in 20 secs.

>>> Claims abound that a pull starting as an outer ring and migrating to
>>> the center over a few seconds is 'normal', when taste clearly tells
>>> such shots lack focus with an excess of both over and underextracted
>>> components.
>> At that point, just coming off the basket, why would it be any different
>> than a pf with a bottom and spouts? The cut pf shot has much more crema
>> for sure.
> Really? I use a single PF with spout removed and pull into clear tulip
> shaped cups.

Getting rid of the spouts would seem to me to be a near equivalent of a
cut PF 'cept you don't see the spritzing when things really F up.

For my 2d, it's swings and roundabouts on the crema.

I'm lost. waddaya talkin' 'bout.
>
>> Are your tasting skills so well developed that you can tell
>> if a shot is a mixture of over and under extracted components?
>
> If you can delude yourself into thinking a BPF improves technique, I
> can delude myself about my palette. <vbg>

My eyesight is OK. I freely admit my taste buds are defective.

>
>> Theoretically, wouldn't every shot be a mixture of over and under
>> extracted components?
>>
>
> Indeed, but the range is more compact when the shot flows evenly from
> start to finish.

I don't see how that would make a difference in the cup.

>
>>>> Secondly, they do seem to improve the quality of shots, but this is
>>>> very subjective. I personally prefer shots pulled with the bottomless
>>>> pf - they seem creamier and have a nicer mouthfeel. They are also
>>>> sweeter - I am able to drink them without sugar, which I can't do with
>>>> the regular pf.
>>>>
>>> Some find shots from them more 'coffee' and less 'espresso', exactly
>>> the opposite.
>> Do you have a reference? I've never heard that. Do you find this taste
>> difference?
>>
>
> It's been posted a few times. Saturday, after using the BPF all week,
> on my second shot I thought "There's something wrong here... Hang on!
> You're using the BPF!" This Monday, I went back to the single and no
> problems. I realize this is completely unscientific and only
> supportable by my impressions.

Maybe I like "coffee" better than "espresso". About a month after
getting the Andreja, almost 3 years ago, I cut 1 of the pfs. I haven't
looked back.

>
>>>> As to why they don't come with the machine - they are a fairly recent
>>>> innovation, and are only recently becoming available from parts'
>>>> suppliers etc. They also only pour a single stream, whereas most
>>>> machines pull doubles through two spouts, for two singles, so there
>>>> are disadvantages. They are also very messy if you don't get your
>>>> technique right :)
>>> Margins are slim on espresso machine. Only the seriously bent require
>>> a BPF, so for the majority of purchasers it is a waste
>> If you're referring to the majority of users as those who use stale
>> pre-ground coffee then, yeah they are a waste.
>>
>
> The number of people who hold the tamper like a gear shift and expect
> to make a level tamp is mind boggling. I'd be willing to wager that a
> simple engineers pocket ruler with depth slide would do more than a
> BPF to improve shot quality.

I use a levitating tamp with ~ 5# of pressure. My main purpose of
tamping is to hope the coffee is evenly distributed in the basket. For
me, tamping in and of itself is a non-existent variable with even
distribution as the goal.

>
>>> If BPFs replaced standard PFs, the resulting mess would ensure a rapid
>>> return to vendor.
>> They're not recommended for stale coffee and bad technique.
>>
>
>> R "seriously bent" TF
> Redundant. You're posting on alt.coffee <vbg>

R "known perseverater" TF


      
Date: 08 May 2007 18:19:56
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Naked PF - What Is It Good For?
On Tue, 08 May 2007 19:41:41 -0400, Moka Java
<rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote:

> >For my 2d, it's swings and roundabouts on the crema.
>
>I'm lost. waddaya talkin' 'bout.

UK to US : For my 2 cents, it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other
No 100% repeatable difference in the crema attributable to the PF.

>
>>> Theoretically, wouldn't every shot be a mixture of over and under
>>> extracted components?
>>
>
>> Indeed, but the range is more compact when the shot flows evenly from
>> start to finish.

> I don't see how that would make a difference in the cup.

If the taste range is more compact there are fewer over-extracted
bitter components. Ditto bland unders. More components in the
flavorful heart of the extraction.