coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main
Date: 24 Nov 2006 17:10:55
From:
Subject: New home roasting question
Ok, I've got myself a small home roaster and a handful of small bags
of beans to experiment on. I'm wondering if someone can point me to a
description of how the different parts of a roast profile affects
different kinds of beans. That is, if I roast a hard bean really hot
for the first 3 minutes and then go cooler for the next 8, and cooler
still for the next 2, how would this affect the bean? Compared to
roasting cool for the first 2, really hot for the next 5, and cool
again for the last 4? I'm just looking for guidelines that explain
how the profile affects hard beans versus soft beans, as a starting
point for doing my own messing around.

Thanks.




 
Date: 24 Nov 2006 19:27:13
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:10:55 GMT, choffman@austin.rr.com wrote:

>Ok, I've got myself a small home roaster and a handful of small bags
>of beans to experiment on. I'm wondering if someone can point me to a
>description of how the different parts of a roast profile affects
>different kinds of beans. That is, if I roast a hard bean really hot
>for the first 3 minutes and then go cooler for the next 8, and cooler
>still for the next 2, how would this affect the bean? Compared to
>roasting cool for the first 2, really hot for the next 5, and cool
>again for the last 4? I'm just looking for guidelines that explain
>how the profile affects hard beans versus soft beans, as a starting
>point for doing my own messing around.
>
>Thanks.

Divers beans in divers roasters result in divers flavors.

Best recommendation is to roast all beans at a consistent profile so
you can determine what works well for your setup and taste preference.

Once you decide which beans work well with your setup, purchase a
larger quantity and try several profiles to see what happens to the
flavors.

Generally, slowing the roast after 1st crack is good for espresso, but
can make a bland drip or press.

Bon chance.


  
Date: 26 Nov 2006 00:36:55
From:
Subject: Re: New home roasting question

Thanks for the suggestions.

I've got eight 1/2 pound bags from Sweet ia's, and the roaster does
4-5 ounces at a time. So, I'll be going through the green that I have
fairly quickly. Just starting to find the flavors that I like. But,
I'm still unclear on how a roast profile affects the bean.

That is, why would I roast hot for the first 4 minutes, a little
cooler for 6 minutes, and then hot for 1.5 minute?. I mean, how does
this affect the bean versus roasting slightly hotter for the entire 11
minutes?


On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:27:13 GMT, "I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:10:55 GMT, choffman@austin.rr.com wrote:
>
>>Ok, I've got myself a small home roaster and a handful of small bags
>>of beans to experiment on. I'm wondering if someone can point me to a
>>description of how the different parts of a roast profile affects
>>different kinds of beans. That is, if I roast a hard bean really hot
>>for the first 3 minutes and then go cooler for the next 8, and cooler
>>still for the next 2, how would this affect the bean? Compared to
>>roasting cool for the first 2, really hot for the next 5, and cool
>>again for the last 4? I'm just looking for guidelines that explain
>>how the profile affects hard beans versus soft beans, as a starting
>>point for doing my own messing around.
>>
>>Thanks.
>
>Divers beans in divers roasters result in divers flavors.
>
>Best recommendation is to roast all beans at a consistent profile so
>you can determine what works well for your setup and taste preference.
>
>Once you decide which beans work well with your setup, purchase a
>larger quantity and try several profiles to see what happens to the
>flavors.
>
>Generally, slowing the roast after 1st crack is good for espresso, but
>can make a bland drip or press.
>
>Bon chance.


   
Date: 25 Nov 2006 19:23:42
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
That question has been posed a number of times over the years, both
by me and by others. I don't recall ever seeing an answer to the
question that went much beyond a generic 'let you palate be your
guide'. While good advice, it's not really helpful. I have to
acknowledge that 'I- >Ian' actually addressed your question, at least
in part, in a previous response to this thread (it appears below).
This is something that I will try to observe with my next roast.
Perhaps you should do the requisite experimentation and get back to
us with your findings. Unfortunately, your eight bags of green will
be gone long before you get a handle on what you're looking for.
Nevertheless, it promises to be an adventure that we could all
benefit from.

In article <75ohm2tg37jpagkqh9i76c7r9fourg5v0i@4ax.com >,
choffman@austin.rr.com says...
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
>
> I've got eight 1/2 pound bags from Sweet ia's, and the roaster does
> 4-5 ounces at a time. So, I'll be going through the green that I have
> fairly quickly. Just starting to find the flavors that I like. But,
> I'm still unclear on how a roast profile affects the bean.
>
> That is, why would I roast hot for the first 4 minutes, a little
> cooler for 6 minutes, and then hot for 1.5 minute?. I mean, how does
> this affect the bean versus roasting slightly hotter for the entire 11
> minutes?
>
>
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:27:13 GMT, "I->Ian" <someone@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:10:55 GMT, choffman@austin.rr.com wrote:
> >
> >>Ok, I've got myself a small home roaster and a handful of small bags
> >>of beans to experiment on. I'm wondering if someone can point me to a
> >>description of how the different parts of a roast profile affects
> >>different kinds of beans. That is, if I roast a hard bean really hot
> >>for the first 3 minutes and then go cooler for the next 8, and cooler
> >>still for the next 2, how would this affect the bean? Compared to
> >>roasting cool for the first 2, really hot for the next 5, and cool
> >>again for the last 4? I'm just looking for guidelines that explain
> >>how the profile affects hard beans versus soft beans, as a starting
> >>point for doing my own messing around.
> >>
> >>Thanks.
> >
> >Divers beans in divers roasters result in divers flavors.
> >
> >Best recommendation is to roast all beans at a consistent profile so
> >you can determine what works well for your setup and taste preference.
> >
> >Once you decide which beans work well with your setup, purchase a
> >larger quantity and try several profiles to see what happens to the
> >flavors.
> >
> >Generally, slowing the roast after 1st crack is good for espresso, but
> >can make a bland drip or press.
> >
> >Bon chance.
>

--
-Mike


    
Date: 26 Nov 2006 19:40:34
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:23:42 -0600, Mike Hartigan
<mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote:

> I don't recall ever seeing an answer to the
>question that went much beyond a generic 'let you palate be your
>guide'. While good advice, it's not really helpful.

As we all taste differently, the notes that I find accented by a
particular profile change may not be the same as another. Add in the
variations that accrue with storage, grind, water and brew method and
the likelihood of a "Do This / Get This" recommendation actually being
worthwhile is on the thin end of slim.

With somewhere over 700 home roasts on several score of bean
varieties, I always begin with 3 'standard' roasts on a new bean,
adjusting over the next few roasts to extract the maximum the bean has
to offer.

If a friend sends a 'sample' of less than a kilo, and the bean is not
current inventory, I just roast a standard profile.

I'm also not beyond binning a green that refuses to cooperate.


     
Date: 26 Nov 2006 20:26:38
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
In article <orojm2ltkpcf8uung8qrvs3cj9509nl0h3@4ax.com >,
someone@nowhere.com says...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:23:42 -0600, Mike Hartigan
> <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't recall ever seeing an answer to the
> >question that went much beyond a generic 'let you palate be your
> >guide'. While good advice, it's not really helpful.
>
> As we all taste differently, the notes that I find accented by a
> particular profile change may not be the same as another. Add in the
> variations that accrue with storage, grind, water and brew method and
> the likelihood of a "Do This / Get This" recommendation actually being
> worthwhile is on the thin end of slim.

Implicit in the question is the 'all else being equal'. If I'm going
to roast a batch, generally speaking, what will be the difference
between a one minute pause between cracks and an eight minute pause?
Should the shorter pause be expected to produce a roast that is more
or less acidic than a longer pause? If I like 'blueberries', would I
be more likely to taste them with a slow ramp up or a very quick one?
What happens if I force first crack in one minute? What happens if I
ease it into first crack over ten minutes? Which characteristics can
be expected to change with first/second crack at 1/10 minutes versus
9/10 minutes? Again, everything else held constant. A professional
roaster can decide on a particular flavor profile and know which
parameters to tweak to coax that flavor out of the bean (assuming, of
course, that the particular bean is capable of that flavor profile).
That's essentially the question.

> With somewhere over 700 home roasts on several score of bean
> varieties, I always begin with 3 'standard' roasts on a new bean,
> adjusting over the next few roasts to extract the maximum the bean has
> to offer.

But is it strictly trial end error? Or do you have some insight,
borne of experience, that tells you what to do differently after you
taste the result of your 'standard' roast?

> If a friend sends a 'sample' of less than a kilo, and the bean is not
> current inventory, I just roast a standard profile.
>
> I'm also not beyond binning a green that refuses to cooperate.

Indeed!

--
-Mike


      
Date: 28 Nov 2006 08:19:20
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:26:38 -0600, Mike Hartigan
<mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote:

>But is it strictly trial end error? Or do you have some insight,
>borne of experience, that tells you what to do differently after you
>taste the result of your 'standard' roast?

Here goes :

To begin, think inside the bean:
- it's a poor thermal conductor, so nothing is going to happen very
quickly.
- Everything to make coffee, except heat, is locked in the bean
- Making coffee is a series of chemical reactions that depend on prior
conditions to complete.

Think of roasting coffee as 3 stages :
1 - heating and drying the beans
2 - adding heat to 1st crack, where first we have 'coffee'
3 - post first crack for flavor development

In broad terms think of profiles in 3 styles :
- Linear with a steady increase in temperature from turning point to
end.
- Accelerating where the temperature rises ever more steeply at the
end of the roast. This style of roast tends to accentuate the
brightness at the expense of the body and varietal notes. If I intend
to drink the coffee soon after roasting, as for an unplanned dinner
party, I'd probably use this style and roast a bit darker, say
440-450, depending on the bean[s] and the guests' gustatory
preferences. Goes well with the missus' yummy confections.
- Decelerating where the temperature rises ever more slowly at the end
of the roast. This style of roast adds more sweetness to the body and
less brightness. This is my preference for coffee that will rest for
3-4 days. Also the norm for espresso SO and blends

If the acceleration profile is too fast on the end, the roast can
'take off' and an exact end point will be difficult to achieve. Some
beans will be very far into 2nd and others may not. Depending on the
bean, this may or may not be a good thing.
If the deceleration profile is taken to the extreme, the roast will
stall and the flavors will muddy. Almost never a good thing.

Never had any real success at trying to make 'roller coaster'
profiles. One of the main reasons for hacking the HotTop was to remove
the flat spot in the middle of the roast. I could never get the
immediate post roast 'chocolate' that seems to go hand in hand with
coffee I enjoy. It's a doddle now.

Stage 1 : [Up to 300F]
If heat is applied too quickly, the outer part of the bean is heading
into stage 2 before the interior. I think this thins out the body. In
the extreme case, the heat chars the thin end of the bean and the
coffee has a charcoal taste.
If heat is applied too slowly, the bean dries too much before the
chemical reactions begin and the coffee will be anemic and astringent.

Stage 2 : [Up to 395F]
Here we are building support for the post 1st crack chemistry by
setting the thermal trajectory. If we drive hard, the thermal gradient
in the bean is steeper which means the precursors for some reactions
are only available for a few moments. More stress is built up in the
bean and bits will fly off when 2nd arrives. Coffee driven hard has a
'wilder' spectrum. If we drive slowly, the precursors are hanging
around a bit longer and the bean expands more slowly. Coffee driven
slowly has a more 'mellow' balance and varietal notes are better
preserved.

Stage 3 : [Post 1st Crack]
With the decelerating profile, you can go several degrees hotter into
2nd without bits flying off. The beans are large and have a smooth
skin. Depth and balance are well maintained. With 'earthy' beans, an
accelerating profile may 'clean' up the taste.

So how do we put this together?
Assume a Colombian, generally OK, no defects, but no CoE.
After sampling the linear profile, we determine it's a bit lacking in
aftertaste and a little light on body.
With a decelerating profile, stopping the roast at ~432F, we have more
body and a well balanced cup that preserves the varietal notes.
Nothing spectacular, just damned good coffee. My preference.
With an accelerating profile, stopping the roast at ~445F, we have a
brighter coffee with more 'roast flavor', but the varietal notes are
almost gone. My sister-in-law prefers this. If we'd stopped at ~432F,
the cup may be just bright and nondescript.


*** ALL TEMPERATURES FOR EXAMPLE ONLY. ***


IMO, most of the 'profiles' in the home roast ketplace are an
advertising wank. If they depend on airflow to change heat, the beans
are on a thermal roller coaster...

As a STARTING Point,
the ever helpful Jim Schulman says :
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
2 minutes to around 250F
2 minutes to around 300F
3 to 4 minutes to first crack start at 395F
3 to 5 minutes to end of roast.

The final roast level is bean dependent, as is the speed of the
final ramp. The run from 250 to 385 should be the roughly the
same for every bean and roaster type. The heatup from room temp
to 250F can be slower with a drum, faster with a small
airroaster. On an airroaster, it's basically as fast as the
thing will go. On a drum, it's pretty well programmed in once
you've picked a load and preheating level that will do the run
from 250 to first crack properly.

"""""""""""""""""""""""

Do
Roast
Taste
Decide
Loop


       
Date: 28 Nov 2006 06:23:58
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
Far more descriptive than I had a right to expect. I suspected that
it wan't simply random trial and error. This gives me some pretty
specific techniques to play with, but, more importantly, it gives me
some direction toward achieving some of the character I've been
looking for. The 'accelerating' and 'decelerating' profiles are
something I hadn't considered before. I had simply been looking at
target temperatures without regard to what's happening along the way.

BTW, I hope you don't object to my adding the term 'gustatory
preferences' to my repertoire.

-Mike

In article <esknm2lagc6otdukjoeltf44k2eo0skdmk@4ax.com >,
someone@nowhere.com says...
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:26:38 -0600, Mike Hartigan
> <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote:
>
> >But is it strictly trial end error? Or do you have some insight,
> >borne of experience, that tells you what to do differently after you
> >taste the result of your 'standard' roast?
>
> Here goes :
>
> To begin, think inside the bean:
> - it's a poor thermal conductor, so nothing is going to happen very
> quickly.
> - Everything to make coffee, except heat, is locked in the bean
> - Making coffee is a series of chemical reactions that depend on prior
> conditions to complete.
>
> Think of roasting coffee as 3 stages :
> 1 - heating and drying the beans
> 2 - adding heat to 1st crack, where first we have 'coffee'
> 3 - post first crack for flavor development
>
> In broad terms think of profiles in 3 styles :
> - Linear with a steady increase in temperature from turning point to
> end.
> - Accelerating where the temperature rises ever more steeply at the
> end of the roast. This style of roast tends to accentuate the
> brightness at the expense of the body and varietal notes. If I intend
> to drink the coffee soon after roasting, as for an unplanned dinner
> party, I'd probably use this style and roast a bit darker, say
> 440-450, depending on the bean[s] and the guests' gustatory
> preferences. Goes well with the missus' yummy confections.
> - Decelerating where the temperature rises ever more slowly at the end
> of the roast. This style of roast adds more sweetness to the body and
> less brightness. This is my preference for coffee that will rest for
> 3-4 days. Also the norm for espresso SO and blends
>
> If the acceleration profile is too fast on the end, the roast can
> 'take off' and an exact end point will be difficult to achieve. Some
> beans will be very far into 2nd and others may not. Depending on the
> bean, this may or may not be a good thing.
> If the deceleration profile is taken to the extreme, the roast will
> stall and the flavors will muddy. Almost never a good thing.
>
> Never had any real success at trying to make 'roller coaster'
> profiles. One of the main reasons for hacking the HotTop was to remove
> the flat spot in the middle of the roast. I could never get the
> immediate post roast 'chocolate' that seems to go hand in hand with
> coffee I enjoy. It's a doddle now.
>
> Stage 1 : [Up to 300F]
> If heat is applied too quickly, the outer part of the bean is heading
> into stage 2 before the interior. I think this thins out the body. In
> the extreme case, the heat chars the thin end of the bean and the
> coffee has a charcoal taste.
> If heat is applied too slowly, the bean dries too much before the
> chemical reactions begin and the coffee will be anemic and astringent.
>
> Stage 2 : [Up to 395F]
> Here we are building support for the post 1st crack chemistry by
> setting the thermal trajectory. If we drive hard, the thermal gradient
> in the bean is steeper which means the precursors for some reactions
> are only available for a few moments. More stress is built up in the
> bean and bits will fly off when 2nd arrives. Coffee driven hard has a
> 'wilder' spectrum. If we drive slowly, the precursors are hanging
> around a bit longer and the bean expands more slowly. Coffee driven
> slowly has a more 'mellow' balance and varietal notes are better
> preserved.
>
> Stage 3 : [Post 1st Crack]
> With the decelerating profile, you can go several degrees hotter into
> 2nd without bits flying off. The beans are large and have a smooth
> skin. Depth and balance are well maintained. With 'earthy' beans, an
> accelerating profile may 'clean' up the taste.
>
> So how do we put this together?
> Assume a Colombian, generally OK, no defects, but no CoE.
> After sampling the linear profile, we determine it's a bit lacking in
> aftertaste and a little light on body.
> With a decelerating profile, stopping the roast at ~432F, we have more
> body and a well balanced cup that preserves the varietal notes.
> Nothing spectacular, just damned good coffee. My preference.
> With an accelerating profile, stopping the roast at ~445F, we have a
> brighter coffee with more 'roast flavor', but the varietal notes are
> almost gone. My sister-in-law prefers this. If we'd stopped at ~432F,
> the cup may be just bright and nondescript.
>
>
> *** ALL TEMPERATURES FOR EXAMPLE ONLY. ***
>
>
> IMO, most of the 'profiles' in the home roast ketplace are an
> advertising wank. If they depend on airflow to change heat, the beans
> are on a thermal roller coaster...
>
> As a STARTING Point,
> the ever helpful Jim Schulman says :
> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
> 2 minutes to around 250F
> 2 minutes to around 300F
> 3 to 4 minutes to first crack start at 395F
> 3 to 5 minutes to end of roast.
>
> The final roast level is bean dependent, as is the speed of the
> final ramp. The run from 250 to 385 should be the roughly the
> same for every bean and roaster type. The heatup from room temp
> to 250F can be slower with a drum, faster with a small
> airroaster. On an airroaster, it's basically as fast as the
> thing will go. On a drum, it's pretty well programmed in once
> you've picked a load and preheating level that will do the run
> from 250 to first crack properly.
>
> """""""""""""""""""""""
>
> Do
> Roast
> Taste
> Decide
> Loop
>

--
-Mike


        
Date: 29 Nov 2006 06:04:39
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:23:58 -0600, Mike Hartigan
<mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote:

>I had simply been looking at
>target temperatures without regard to what's happening along the way.

Sorry about the dual response but, I couldn't let it pass.

All too often in the [home] roast dialog all anyone mentions is the
end point.

It's the journey and not the destination that is important.


        
Date: 28 Nov 2006 19:00:25
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 06:23:58 -0600, Mike Hartigan
<mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote:

>
>BTW, I hope you don't object to my adding the term 'gustatory
>preferences' to my repertoire.

Please do.


   
Date: 26 Nov 2006 01:15:44
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: New home roasting question
On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:36:55 GMT, choffman@austin.rr.com wrote:

>
>Thanks for the suggestions.
>
>I've got eight 1/2 pound bags from Sweet ia's, and the roaster does
>4-5 ounces at a time. So, I'll be going through the green that I have
>fairly quickly. Just starting to find the flavors that I like. But,
>I'm still unclear on how a roast profile affects the bean.
>
>That is, why would I roast hot for the first 4 minutes, a little
>cooler for 6 minutes, and then hot for 1.5 minute?. I mean, how does
>this affect the bean versus roasting slightly hotter for the entire 11
>minutes?
>


This article may help
http://www.roastmagazine.com/backissues/chapril2006/keepingprofile.html


>
>On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 19:27:13 GMT, "I->Ian" <someone@nowhere.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:10:55 GMT, choffman@austin.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>>Ok, I've got myself a small home roaster and a handful of small bags
>>>of beans to experiment on. I'm wondering if someone can point me to a
>>>description of how the different parts of a roast profile affects
>>>different kinds of beans. That is, if I roast a hard bean really hot
>>>for the first 3 minutes and then go cooler for the next 8, and cooler
>>>still for the next 2, how would this affect the bean? Compared to
>>>roasting cool for the first 2, really hot for the next 5, and cool
>>>again for the last 4? I'm just looking for guidelines that explain
>>>how the profile affects hard beans versus soft beans, as a starting
>>>point for doing my own messing around.
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>
>>Divers beans in divers roasters result in divers flavors.
>>
>>Best recommendation is to roast all beans at a consistent profile so
>>you can determine what works well for your setup and taste preference.
>>
>>Once you decide which beans work well with your setup, purchase a
>>larger quantity and try several profiles to see what happens to the
>>flavors.
>>
>>Generally, slowing the roast after 1st crack is good for espresso, but
>>can make a bland drip or press.
>>
>>Bon chance.