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Date: 30 Dec 2006 11:34:16
From: daveb
Subject: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Dual display controller
120/240 volt,
1/32 DIN,
WITH THERMOCOUPLE
AND SSR,
ALL BRAND NEW

$125 incl. shipping -- worldwide



Dave b
www.hitechespresso.com
dave713 on the eBay
tech support is always free.
877 286 2833 toll free in USA





 
Date: 01 Jan 2007 09:45:17
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- guess NEVER is here
`

Randy G. wrote:
> Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <45986747$0$18582$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> > RoughJaw <rj@gmail.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:34:16 -0800, daveb wrote:
> >>
> >> <more spam>
> >>
> >> Seems to me that back once upon a time when asked about selling a kit,
> >> you said you would NEVER offer one since there was no way to warranty it...
> >> no telling what kind of idiots would install it wrong and then blame the
> >> components.
> >
> >That of course, was prior to finding out he could make a buck on it.
> >Being able to spam about it was just the icing on the cake... ;-)
>
> And guess who E-Mailed me after I posted in a thread with a similar
> name to this one? Even after I have asked him NUMEROUS times, here and
> privately, to not contact me, he persists. He's a spammer and a
> stalker. Something to think about before doing business with him. Go
> ahead and complain to him if you have a problem with his products or
> services, but get a good E-Mail filtering program before you do!
>
>
> Randy "DEFINITELY smells like a duck..." G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com



 
Date: 01 Jan 2007 01:43:36
From: RoughJaw
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- guess NEVER is here
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:34:16 -0800, daveb wrote:

<more spam >

Seems to me that back once upon a time when asked about selling a kit,
you said you would NEVER offer one since there was no way to warranty it...
no telling what kind of idiots would install it wrong and then blame the
components.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 20:51:34
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- guess NEVER is here
In article <45986747$0$18582$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
RoughJaw <rj@gmail.invalid > wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:34:16 -0800, daveb wrote:
>
> <more spam>
>
> Seems to me that back once upon a time when asked about selling a kit,
> you said you would NEVER offer one since there was no way to warranty it...
> no telling what kind of idiots would install it wrong and then blame the
> components.

That of course, was prior to finding out he could make a buck on it.
Being able to spam about it was just the icing on the cake... ;-)


   
Date: 01 Jan 2007 08:45:40
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- guess NEVER is here
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>In article <45986747$0$18582$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> RoughJaw <rj@gmail.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:34:16 -0800, daveb wrote:
>>
>> <more spam>
>>
>> Seems to me that back once upon a time when asked about selling a kit,
>> you said you would NEVER offer one since there was no way to warranty it...
>> no telling what kind of idiots would install it wrong and then blame the
>> components.
>
>That of course, was prior to finding out he could make a buck on it.
>Being able to spam about it was just the icing on the cake... ;-)

And guess who E-Mailed me after I posted in a thread with a similar
name to this one? Even after I have asked him NUMEROUS times, here and
privately, to not contact me, he persists. He's a spammer and a
stalker. Something to think about before doing business with him. Go
ahead and complain to him if you have a problem with his products or
services, but get a good E-Mail filtering program before you do!


Randy "DEFINITELY smells like a duck..." G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 13:14:49
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Can anyone explain why someone would choose to buy a PID "kit: from
Dave-the-Snakeoil-Peddler when he could get a real kit from Jim Gallt,
a real engineer and a real gentleman who sells real kits and backs them
up with real support?



  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 14:43:39
From: RoqueJa
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On 31 Dec 2006 13:14:49 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Can anyone explain why someone would choose to buy a PID "kit: from
>Dave-the-Snakeoil-Peddler when he could get a real kit from Jim Gallt,
>a real engineer and a real gentleman who sells real kits and backs them
>up with real support?


Like Dave says: He's got over 1100 positives on ebay. Hardly what I
would call a snake-oil salesman.

Who was it who said: "Call me whatever you like, just spell my name
right."? Dave has that down pat.

For some reason, dave's success generates incredible envy on this
group. He was bashed (by his Randelness, no less) on his first post.
Randel hasn't stopped bashing him yet. Randel's sycophants and
buttwipers have jumped on the bashwagon. Then there's Harmon -- Dr.
Harmon, as I recall, as he reminded us so often when he first joined
our merry band and expected us all to fall down in awe of his exalted
status (oops, didn't work, did it?). But dave keeps rolling along, the
Geemen and Harmen be damned. Gotta admire his pluck.

I have never done business with him. Don't know him other than on this
group, but it should be clear to all f you that he provides a solid
service and quality work. Why is that so hard to handle? What about it
is threatening to so many of you? Do you really think that bashing
dave will make your weewee grow? Guess what? It won't. Dave will keep
selling his wares and your weenies will still be the same size.

I don't doubt for a second that Jim Gallt is also providing a fine
product and fine support. Nice to know there are choices. I suspect if
I wanted a kit, I go with Jim. But if I was buying a new machine,
there's no doubt that dave would be my guy.

fools.




   
Date: 31 Dec 2006 16:54:47
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <hhegp2957t381fofkhvmvb1rdrpoul8rsq@4ax.com >,
RoqueJa <no-email.com@ > wrote:

> On 31 Dec 2006 13:14:49 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Can anyone explain why someone would choose to buy a PID "kit: from
> >Dave-the-Snakeoil-Peddler when he could get a real kit from Jim Gallt,
> >a real engineer and a real gentleman who sells real kits and backs them
> >up with real support?
>
>
> Like Dave says: He's got over 1100 positives on ebay. Hardly what I
> would call a snake-oil salesman.
>
> Who was it who said: "Call me whatever you like, just spell my name
> right."? Dave has that down pat.
>
> For some reason, dave's success generates incredible envy on this
> group. He was bashed (by his Randelness, no less) on his first post.
> Randel hasn't stopped bashing him yet. Randel's sycophants and
> buttwipers have jumped on the bashwagon. Then there's Harmon -- Dr.
> Harmon, as I recall, as he reminded us so often when he first joined
> our merry band and expected us all to fall down in awe of his exalted
> status (oops, didn't work, did it?). But dave keeps rolling along, the
> Geemen and Harmen be damned. Gotta admire his pluck.
>
> I have never done business with him. Don't know him other than on this
> group, but it should be clear to all f you that he provides a solid
> service and quality work. Why is that so hard to handle? What about it
> is threatening to so many of you? Do you really think that bashing
> dave will make your weewee grow? Guess what? It won't. Dave will keep
> selling his wares and your weenies will still be the same size.
>
> I don't doubt for a second that Jim Gallt is also providing a fine
> product and fine support. Nice to know there are choices. I suspect if
> I wanted a kit, I go with Jim. But if I was buying a new machine,
> there's no doubt that dave would be my guy.
>
> fools.

You need to read more before you spout off. Dave's success isn't the
issue at all. His incessant spamming of this newsgroup is!

I know of no other dealer, servicer or other businessman in this
business that spams so much.


    
Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:19:49
From:
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:54:47 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:


>
>You need to read more before you spout off. Dave's success isn't the
>issue at all. His incessant spamming of this newsgroup is!
>
>I know of no other dealer, servicer or other businessman in this
>business that spams so much.


I have read his posts. Been reading them since he first showed up
here. I've watched with interest and some admiration as he has built a
business that provides a real service to many (see the ebay feedback
for uncontrovertible evidence). As I've said since Randiegeeman went
ballistic on him from that first time: It's Not Spam. Words do not
mean what RandyMyRandy wants them to.

From Wikipedia (and typical of all references on the subject):
"Spam: Newsgroup spam ... targets Usenet newsgroups and it consists of
repetitious posting of a message (or substantially similar messages).
The Breidbart Index was developed to provide an objective measure of
the "spamminess" of a multi-posted or cross-posted message on Usenet.
Spamming in an internet forum is when a user posts a message that is
off-topic, has little relevance to the subject being discussed, or is
a post that fails to contribute to the thread."

Ergo, "We can help you grow a bigger weenie" is spam (except on
alt.biggerweenies, perhaps). Dave's posts -- which are not off-topic,
not multi- or cross-posted, not generated by spambots, not irrelevant
to the group, not of no interest to the group -- are not. Couldn't be
simpler.

As for the wasted bandwidth arguments; they are simply absurd. First,
dave's posts are exceptionally terse. More bandwidth is squandered by
the likes of RG, Dr.HarmonPhDRet FoxyMerdeDoc, and now you, bashing
dave than the sum of all his brief, to-the-point, on-topic posts.

It's just stupid to keep accusing him of spamming the group, when he
is not. No more than k defending his picks of the year as sold to
the highest bidder, or our friends from Kona, or our resident whore
for anyone who will give up those coffee freebies, or numerous others
who have business interests and web sites related to coffee. All of
these are perfectly acceptable by any reading of the policies of
usenet. Some may smell bad; but they aren't spam.

It is possible to draft a charter that prohibits commercial messages
of any kind. No one has seen fit to take on that chore for alt.coffee
(I submit that it would be a stupid thing to do if you consider the
unintended consequences such a prohibition would have, but that's
another issue.) The charter would have to be voted on in any case. In
the absence of such a charter, dave's posts are completely legitimate.

Fact is, some here have taken a personal dislike to dave. Maybe for
good reason; doesn't matter. You cannot continually accuse someone of
doing something illegal just because you don't like him. And that's
what all these spam accusations amount to. Hell, I don't like a lot of
people here. A lot of them don't like me. Doesn't make us usenet
criminals.

Be a helluva lot easier if everyone who thinks dave's posts are the
spawn of satan would just filter his messages or, for those unable to
figure out such a sophisticated and high-tech solution, to just ignore
them and quit bitching.

There are lots of moderated coffee forums out there. Users can be
banned by the keepers of those forums for whatever reason they choose.
If you want your private club with riff-raff barriers intact, go there
by all means. Usenet is by its nature, anarchic. That's what many of
us like about it. That's why many of us check the group instead of the
pretty little avatar members sites. That's why some of us think it's
important to keep those traditions alive.








_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


     
Date: 01 Jan 2007 18:59:15
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <pd7jp21233bld1hqvu3v77cinoc1r51bhf@4ax.com >, Roque Ja
wrote:

> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:54:47 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >You need to read more before you spout off. Dave's success isn't the
> >issue at all. His incessant spamming of this newsgroup is!
> >
> >I know of no other dealer, servicer or other businessman in this
> >business that spams so much.
>
>
> I have read his posts. Been reading them since he first showed up
> here. I've watched with interest and some admiration as he has built a
> business that provides a real service to many (see the ebay feedback
> for uncontrovertible evidence). As I've said since Randiegeeman went
> ballistic on him from that first time: It's Not Spam. Words do not
> mean what RandyMyRandy wants them to.
>
> From Wikipedia (and typical of all references on the subject):
> "Spam: Newsgroup spam ... targets Usenet newsgroups and it consists of
> repetitious posting of a message (or substantially similar messages).
> The Breidbart Index was developed to provide an objective measure of
> the "spamminess" of a multi-posted or cross-posted message on Usenet.
> Spamming in an internet forum is when a user posts a message that is
> off-topic, has little relevance to the subject being discussed, or is
> a post that fails to contribute to the thread."
>
> Ergo, "We can help you grow a bigger weenie" is spam (except on
> alt.biggerweenies, perhaps). Dave's posts -- which are not off-topic,
> not multi- or cross-posted, not generated by spambots, not irrelevant
> to the group, not of no interest to the group -- are not. Couldn't be
> simpler.
>
> As for the wasted bandwidth arguments; they are simply absurd. First,
> dave's posts are exceptionally terse. More bandwidth is squandered by
> the likes of RG, Dr.HarmonPhDRet FoxyMerdeDoc, and now you, bashing
> dave than the sum of all his brief, to-the-point, on-topic posts.
>
> It's just stupid to keep accusing him of spamming the group, when he
> is not. No more than k defending his picks of the year as sold to
> the highest bidder, or our friends from Kona, or our resident whore
> for anyone who will give up those coffee freebies, or numerous others
> who have business interests and web sites related to coffee. All of
> these are perfectly acceptable by any reading of the policies of
> usenet. Some may smell bad; but they aren't spam.
>
> It is possible to draft a charter that prohibits commercial messages
> of any kind. No one has seen fit to take on that chore for alt.coffee
> (I submit that it would be a stupid thing to do if you consider the
> unintended consequences such a prohibition would have, but that's
> another issue.) The charter would have to be voted on in any case. In
> the absence of such a charter, dave's posts are completely legitimate.
>
> Fact is, some here have taken a personal dislike to dave. Maybe for
> good reason; doesn't matter. You cannot continually accuse someone of
> doing something illegal just because you don't like him. And that's
> what all these spam accusations amount to. Hell, I don't like a lot of
> people here. A lot of them don't like me. Doesn't make us usenet
> criminals.
>
> Be a helluva lot easier if everyone who thinks dave's posts are the
> spawn of satan would just filter his messages or, for those unable to
> figure out such a sophisticated and high-tech solution, to just ignore
> them and quit bitching.
>
> There are lots of moderated coffee forums out there. Users can be
> banned by the keepers of those forums for whatever reason they choose.
> If you want your private club with riff-raff barriers intact, go there
> by all means. Usenet is by its nature, anarchic. That's what many of
> us like about it. That's why many of us check the group instead of the
> pretty little avatar members sites. That's why some of us think it's
> important to keep those traditions alive.
>
And we can now add your name to the bandwidth wasters??? ;-)

Dave's posts are legitimate, as is his business. They are also spam by
most definitions. Wikipedia is a nice 'editable' source but certainly
not the defining source.

I have no problem with Dave having the business he has. Obviously he is
providing a service to those interested in that service.

If he were to relegate his business dealings to a sig line as is done in
most newsgroups, I doubt many would care.

As it is, he'll keep on spamming, possibly you'll keep on excusing it.
It doesn't really matter to me. I read Dave's posts because when he
isn't touting his business, he does bring good info to this group.

Unless of course, you are asking about something he does for a living.
PIDs for instance. He likes 'em and they seem to be a good idea for a
single boiler machine, while the jury is out on PIDing an HX.

Here's my take on the HX PID issue. It isn't an issue. The PID doesn't
bring anything to an HX/E61 except a nifty indicator of the boiler temp.
Now I'm not against having anything nifty on a machine, it does seem a
bit pricey just to provide an electronic thermometer.


      
Date: 01 Jan 2007 18:30:30
From:
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:59:15 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>Dave's posts are legitimate, as is his business. They are also spam by
>most definitions. Wikipedia is a nice 'editable' source but certainly
>not the defining source.

I agree with your disdain for the wiki, but it was the quickest
source, and, if you reread my post you will see that I said something
to the effect that all other reputable sources agree. If you want to
research the subject yourself, you will find that wiki's definition is
pretty much consistent with (in large part because it comes from) all
standard usages of term. Your hand-waving "most definitions" just
doesn't wash. Likely, you did have a look and found the same yourself,
thus your falling back on the absurd non-sequiter of "most
definitions". Show me those "most definitions" if you can. Our
friend, google, provides many clear definitions of spam. I submit that
none describes dave's posts on alt.coffee. There are, as the wiki
except notes, spam monitors for usenet. Odd, don't you think, that one
doesn't find dave's posts listed there when so many of his detractors
are so ready to hurl the spammer epithet his way?

Once upon a time we had -- right here on alt.coffee -- a bizarrely
extended discussion of what is and what is not spam. You can look that
up if you like, but the bottom line is that just because you and your
buddies don't like dave, it doesn't make his posts here spam. Words
most emphatically do NOT mean what you and randy et al want them to
mean.

What you object to is dave. Your prerogative. Just tell it like it is:
"I think dave is... (fill in whatever vile descriptor you like)" not
"I think dave is a spammer."

My personal prejudice is that someone who is so insecure that he has
to be constantly telling the world about how much he has invested
emotionally, financially and egotistically in some ridiculously
expensive piece of coffee paraphernalia is a bit of a sad joke. The
absurd rush to describe every new cup of espresso is more than a
little bit akin to a newly potty-trained three year old recounting
every trip to the toilet, wouldn't you say? But that fellow is not a
spammer and is certainly entitled to look for his strokes on usenet.
Oddly enough, he'll even get them. Go figure.









_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


    
Date: 31 Dec 2006 23:44:38
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Well put Lloyd! The only reason I go after the davester's rice bowl is
that's the only avenue available to put a stop to his crap.

Robert

"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-30A652.16544731122006@individual.net...
> In article <hhegp2957t381fofkhvmvb1rdrpoul8rsq@4ax.com>,
> RoqueJa <no-email.com@> wrote:
>

> You need to read more before you spout off. Dave's success isn't the
> issue at all. His incessant spamming of this newsgroup is!
>
> I know of no other dealer, servicer or other businessman in this
> business that spams so much.




  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 21:51:50
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
I've wondered about the same thing?

All I can come up with is a theory about a contrarian streak in some folks.
If CW is running against something or someone the contrarian feels compelled
to run counter to CW. The contrarian probably see themselves as rebels, but
it's more a problem with low self esteem. Maybe their Mommy stopped breast
feeding them too soon?

That's my theory anyways & I'm stickin' to it.

Robert (I piss on self-promoting asses like davey boy!) Harmon

<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167599689.613732.262890@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> Can anyone explain why someone would choose to buy a PID "kit: from
> Dave-the-Snakeoil-Peddler when he could get a real kit from Jim Gallt,
> a real engineer and a real gentleman who sells real kits and backs them
> up with real support?
>




 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 09:27:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
always the SAME phone number, -- and now toll free

website www.hitechespresso.com

6 years 10 months on ebay = 1114 positives user dave713

:-)



 
Date: 31 Dec 2006 09:24:53
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Dual display controller
120/240 volt,
1/32 DIN,
WITH THERMOCOUPLE
AND SSR,
ALL BRAND NEW

$125 incl. shipping -- worldwide

Dave b
www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 20:20:22
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
And why the reluctance to leave his posts for all to see? He's removing
thme from the server immediately after posting.

Robert

Alan wrote:
> "daveb" wrote
> > yeah, I guess so --
> >
> > trust me:
> >
> > as this is the same stuff I've put in over 220 installs, worldwide.
>
> But why the reluctance to reveal details about the "stuff" ?



 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 18:40:12
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
yeah, I guess so --

trust me:

as this is the same stuff I've put in over 220 installs, worldwide.



  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 03:12:34
From: Alan
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

"daveb" wrote
> yeah, I guess so --
>
> trust me:
>
> as this is the same stuff I've put in over 220 installs, worldwide.

But why the reluctance to reveal details about the "stuff" ?




   
Date: 04 Jan 2007 05:54:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Yes Ray, you are 100 percent correct. or "spot on" as they may say in
the UK or elsewhere. The use of electronic temp. control helps take
the guesswork OUT of the operation and places the control of the
machine back in the hands of its master.

Dave


[Ray]: I thought, but could be wrong, that the idea was to PID the
boiler down
> to shot temperatures (rather than steam temps) which I assume would
> make the exchanger more or less irrelevant. It would basically limit
> the machine to making shots, albeit at a very stable temperature, most
> of the time. Then, when the user was having a dinner party or something
> where he/she wanted to make milk drinks, the PID could be set back to
> steaming temps and the HX would function as intended for the shots, and
> needing the cooling flush to work properly. Essentially the PID would
> be irrelevant when making milk drinks, but would control the temp of
> the boiler at shot temps for shot-only applications. This wouldn't work
> well for me because I mix straight shots with milk drinks on a fairly
> regular basis (and there are probably a lot of folks like me in this
> regard), but for someone who prefers straight shots most of the time
> and only brings the steamer into use occasionally, it sounds
> reasonable, no? Again, this is my understanding of the use of a PID in
> an HX machine, based on what I THOUGHT I'd read here previously. I'm
> learning from this discussion so far, though, so please keep the better
> information coming. Dave, was I correct in my interpretation of what
> you'd said previously?
>
> -Ray



   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 11:12:24
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

On Jan 2, 12:57 pm, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
>I was answering this part of your post : (quote)
>
> "I think the idea being that you use the main boiler for well
> controlled shots using the PID and only use the exchanger when you're
> doing milk drinks".
>
> Which is the reverse of how a HX works.

I understand that, but I thought the intent of the PID in this case was
to essentially make the exchanger irrelevant by lowering the temp of
the whole thing. Other replies have confused me further, though,
proving to me yet again how little I understand some of the finer
points of this stuff. So I will both cease and desist.

> But ignore me since I'm actually rather pissed on Cobra and Vodka shots...

A far better excuse than I have, since the only substance I'm abusing
at the moment is the oxygen in the room.

Enjoy!

-Ray



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 20:53:59
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On 2 Jan 2007 11:12:24 -0800, "ramboorider@gmail.com"
<ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote:

>I understand that, but I thought the intent of the PID in this case was
>to essentially make the exchanger irrelevant by lowering the temp of
>the whole thing.

it doesn't make the exchanger irrelevant but, rather, mitigates the
overtemp problems associated with some HX systems when idle. fwiw,
the same can be done on a stock HX setup by adjusting the pressurestat
down to the .9bar area. what the PID can do is minimize the
temperature fluctuations at idle, when compared to the pstat deadband.
once again, a PID is not required to 'dial down' a HX system, but it
can enhance the stability of that system at idle.

theoretically.



     
Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:01:43
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <f6dlp257mud1c4akthivijj5rvflev2ko1@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On 2 Jan 2007 11:12:24 -0800, "ramboorider@gmail.com"
> <ramboorider@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I understand that, but I thought the intent of the PID in this case was
> >to essentially make the exchanger irrelevant by lowering the temp of
> >the whole thing.
>
> it doesn't make the exchanger irrelevant but, rather, mitigates the
> overtemp problems associated with some HX systems when idle. fwiw,
> the same can be done on a stock HX setup by adjusting the pressurestat
> down to the .9bar area. what the PID can do is minimize the
> temperature fluctuations at idle, when compared to the pstat deadband.
> once again, a PID is not required to 'dial down' a HX system, but it
> can enhance the stability of that system at idle.
>
> theoretically.

If you dial down the temp of the boiler to brew temp, then the effect of
the thermosyphon and the HX not being 100% efficient should result in
the grouphead being too cool.

It appears that then you would need to flush to bring the heat up in the
grouphead, vice the now flushing to bring it down.

Because you can see and hear when the temp is down enough, I would think
a cooling flush would be more desired.


      
Date: 03 Jan 2007 00:32:27
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 15:01:43 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>If you dial down the temp of the boiler to brew temp, then the effect of
>the thermosyphon and the HX not being 100% efficient should result in
>the grouphead being too cool.
>

i wouldn't dial it down to where the boiler is at the brew temp. i'd
dial it down to where the brew water is at the brew temp.




   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 08:29:40
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
MANY users are only concerned about getting 1 or 2 shots -- without
flushing.

then they go do something else.

and it actually works, perfectly.

D



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 13:45:32
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167755380.638054.237830@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com >,
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> MANY users are only concerned about getting 1 or 2 shots -- without
> flushing.
>
> then they go do something else.
>
> and it actually works, perfectly.
>
> D

I'm sorry, but I just do not believe you can do away with the flushing
altogether. Since the HX is not 100% efficient, there has to be a temp
differential between the boiler temp and brew temp.

I can believe that you can reduce the amount and time of flush.


   
Date: 31 Dec 2006 08:34:55
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:

>
>"daveb" wrote
>> yeah, I guess so --
>>
>> trust me:
>>
>> as this is the same stuff I've put in over 220 installs, worldwide.
>
>But why the reluctance to reveal details about the "stuff" ?
>

Trust him? Which "him" should we trust????? These are all aliases of
this same person asking us to trust him:
--------------------------------------------------------
From: "Miss Penny" <pennypey@yahoo.com >
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Why a fool like Harmon keeps degrading this ng
Date: 16 Oct 2006 09:46:21 -0700
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.144.124.49
------------------------------------------------------------
From: "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com >
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Quick Mill Vetrano rotary with 'PID' -- orders now being
accepted
Date: 17 Oct 2006 06:10:53 -0700
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 70.144.124.49
------------------------------------------
From: joebobfeeny@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Re: Why the hostility?
Date: 21 Jan 2005 06:31:03 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.221.247.245
-------------------------------------------
From: "DAVE4830" <edna713@yahoo.com >
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Re: Why the hostility?
Date: 21 Jan 2005 06:34:44 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.221.247.245
---------------------------------------------
From: "PIDFAN" <edna713@yahoo.com >
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Re: Question Regarding Adding PID to Sylvia
Date: 22 Jan 2005 05:15:23 -0800
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.221.247.103
----------------------------------------------

Miss Penny - pennypey@yahoo.com
dave - "dave" <edna713@yahoo.com >
DAVE4830 - "DAVE4830" <edna713@yahoo.com >
edna713 - "edna713" <edna713@yahoo.com >
joebobfeeny - joebobfeeny@hotmail.com
PIDFAN - edna713@yahoo.com


He has tried to cover his tracks by frquently changing his screen name
and yet he had the nerve to post the following:
--------------------------------------------------
From: "DAVE4830" <edna713@yahoo.com >
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Subject: Re: Pardon me
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.221.247.245

HOOK UP?? HERE? not hardly, pal. Just not hiding behind a handle
--------------------------------------------------



Randy "" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 18:23:04
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
What doing business w/ me is like -- is for all to see -- on ebay --
under 'feedback' -- here -- in the archives.

this is the only response You will receive from me.

dave


notbob wrote:
> On 2006-12-30, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
> > the rest of the parts cost maybe $10.00
>
> The rest of what parts? I didn't ask about other parts, I asked about
> the parts you list in your Sylvia PID kit ebay ad.
>
> I'm inquiring about specific information on the components you list,
> like the brand name and model number of the temp controller and the
> ssr. Are they American made or foreign made? Are they reputable
> components or low cost knockoffs? What are the specifications of the
> tc and temp controller and ssr? Voltages, temp ranges, etc. These
> are all valid question any serious buyer would ask.
>
> This is not a joke. Your kit appears to be cost competitive with the
> other DIY kit, but one can't make a useful comparison without all the
> facts. Are you willing to provide this information or is this the kind
> of run-around one can expect doing business with you?
>
> nb



  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 02:32:24
From: Alan
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
I see ---- the "trust me, cuz others do" approach . . .

I guess a lot of folks like the suspense involved in buying a pig in a poke
. . .


"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167531784.814389.257250@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> What doing business w/ me is like -- is for all to see -- on ebay --
> under 'feedback' -- here -- in the archives.
>
> this is the only response You will receive from me.
>
> dave
>
>
> notbob wrote:
>> On 2006-12-30, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > the rest of the parts cost maybe $10.00
>>
>> The rest of what parts? I didn't ask about other parts, I asked about
>> the parts you list in your Sylvia PID kit ebay ad.
>>
>> I'm inquiring about specific information on the components you list,
>> like the brand name and model number of the temp controller and the
>> ssr. Are they American made or foreign made? Are they reputable
>> components or low cost knockoffs? What are the specifications of the
>> tc and temp controller and ssr? Voltages, temp ranges, etc. These
>> are all valid question any serious buyer would ask.
>>
>> This is not a joke. Your kit appears to be cost competitive with the
>> other DIY kit, but one can't make a useful comparison without all the
>> facts. Are you willing to provide this information or is this the kind
>> of run-around one can expect doing business with you?
>>
>> nb
>




   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 13:59:52
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Roque wrote:
<<snip >>
the bottom line is that just because you and your
> buddies don't like dave <<snip>>

I used to not like Dave because he was often not nice. But lately he
has been less not nice and his ratio of useful-posts to not-nice posts
has been more favorable. A welcomed trend.

OTOH, some others have jumped into the not-nice vacuum left by Dave,
and they are huffing and puffing so furiously that the space threatens
to explode. And that's not Spam hittin' the fan.

tin


, it doesn't make his posts here spam. Words
> most emphatically do NOT mean what you and randy et al want them to
> mean.
>
> What you object to is dave. Your prerogative. Just tell it like it is:
> "I think dave is... (fill in whatever vile descriptor you like)" not
> "I think dave is a spammer."
>
> My personal prejudice is that someone who is so insecure that he has
> to be constantly telling the world about how much he has invested
> emotionally, financially and egotistically in some ridiculously
> expensive piece of coffee paraphernalia is a bit of a sad joke. The
> absurd rush to describe every new cup of espresso is more than a
> little bit akin to a newly potty-trained three year old recounting
> every trip to the toilet, wouldn't you say? But that fellow is not a
> spammer and is certainly entitled to look for his strokes on usenet.
> Oddly enough, he'll even get them. Go figure.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.



   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 07:53:09
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Jan 2, 10:27 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

> You appear to have your understanding reversed. Hx machines have a
> boiler full of water for steaming and hot water spout duties (if
> fitted). The HX is a pipe that runs through this heated boiler, and
> contains the incoming cold water that is used for the shots. This
> water is heated by exchange - the hot boiler water (usually kept at
> steaming temp) heats the water in the pipe so it's the correct temp
> for espresso shots. If shots aren't pulled regularly, the water in
> the HX approaches that of the steam boiler and needs flushing to get
> it down to espresso temp. The only way to avoid using the HX is to
> just steam and not produce espresso shots at all.

I thought, but could be wrong, that the idea was to PID the boiler down
to shot temperatures (rather than steam temps) which I assume would
make the exchanger more or less irrelevant. It would basically limit
the machine to making shots, albeit at a very stable temperature, most
of the time. Then, when the user was having a dinner party or something
where he/she wanted to make milk drinks, the PID could be set back to
steaming temps and the HX would function as intended for the shots, and
needing the cooling flush to work properly. Essentially the PID would
be irrelevant when making milk drinks, but would control the temp of
the boiler at shot temps for shot-only applications. This wouldn't work
well for me because I mix straight shots with milk drinks on a fairly
regular basis (and there are probably a lot of folks like me in this
regard), but for someone who prefers straight shots most of the time
and only brings the steamer into use occasionally, it sounds
reasonable, no? Again, this is my understanding of the use of a PID in
an HX machine, based on what I THOUGHT I'd read here previously. I'm
learning from this discussion so far, though, so please keep the better
information coming. Dave, was I correct in my interpretation of what
you'd said previously?

-Ray



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 13:43:59
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167753189.913591.27290@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"ramboorider@gmail.com" <ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Jan 2, 10:27 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>
> > You appear to have your understanding reversed. Hx machines have a
> > boiler full of water for steaming and hot water spout duties (if
> > fitted). The HX is a pipe that runs through this heated boiler, and
> > contains the incoming cold water that is used for the shots. This
> > water is heated by exchange - the hot boiler water (usually kept at
> > steaming temp) heats the water in the pipe so it's the correct temp
> > for espresso shots. If shots aren't pulled regularly, the water in
> > the HX approaches that of the steam boiler and needs flushing to get
> > it down to espresso temp. The only way to avoid using the HX is to
> > just steam and not produce espresso shots at all.
>
> I thought, but could be wrong, that the idea was to PID the boiler down
> to shot temperatures (rather than steam temps) which I assume would
> make the exchanger more or less irrelevant. It would basically limit
> the machine to making shots, albeit at a very stable temperature, most
> of the time. Then, when the user was having a dinner party or something
> where he/she wanted to make milk drinks, the PID could be set back to
> steaming temps and the HX would function as intended for the shots, and
> needing the cooling flush to work properly. Essentially the PID would
> be irrelevant when making milk drinks, but would control the temp of
> the boiler at shot temps for shot-only applications. This wouldn't work
> well for me because I mix straight shots with milk drinks on a fairly
> regular basis (and there are probably a lot of folks like me in this
> regard), but for someone who prefers straight shots most of the time
> and only brings the steamer into use occasionally, it sounds
> reasonable, no? Again, this is my understanding of the use of a PID in
> an HX machine, based on what I THOUGHT I'd read here previously. I'm
> learning from this discussion so far, though, so please keep the better
> information coming. Dave, was I correct in my interpretation of what
> you'd said previously?
>
> -Ray

The boiler temp would have to be hotter than brew temp at all times
since the heat exchanger is not 100% efficient. How much exactly I
don't know.


    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 17:57:46
From: Danny
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
ramboorider@gmail.com wrote:
I was answering this part of your post : (quote)

"I think the idea being that you use the main boiler for well
controlled shots using the PID and only use the exchanger when you're
doing milk drinks".

Which is the reverse of how a HX works.

But ignore me since I'm actually rather pissed on Cobra and Vodka shots...


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



     
Date: 02 Jan 2007 18:50:25
From: Danny
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Danny wrote:

> But ignore me since I'm actually rather pissed on Cobra and Vodka shots...
>
>

And now, Glayver. Wonderful stuff...


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



      
Date: 02 Jan 2007 20:06:52
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Howdy Danny!
It seems that I wax more eloquently when I've been sampling my booze. Today
I'm sipping a glass (or two or three or ??) of Laphroaig 30YO single malt
that a VERY good friend gave me for Christmas. It's very good, but I'm still
giving him Starbuck's gift cards as always.

Robert (I never drink anything stronger than pop. He'll drink anything!)
Harmon

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:4vvnpkF1dg26qU1@mid.individual.net...
> Danny wrote:
>
>> But ignore me since I'm actually rather pissed on Cobra and Vodka
>> shots...
>>
>>
>
> And now, Glayver. Wonderful stuff...
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
>




       
Date: 02 Jan 2007 21:24:37
From: Danny
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Howdy Danny!
> It seems that I wax more eloquently when I've been sampling my booze. Today
> I'm sipping a glass (or two or three or ??) of Laphroaig 30YO single malt
> that a VERY good friend gave me for Christmas. It's very good, but I'm still
> giving him Starbuck's gift cards as always.
>

I'm actually too pissed to write anything, never mind eloqueeeently :)

Never mind your quality scottish beverages, we are working throuhg the
remnants of Xmas - first the Amontilado sherry, then some Cobra
(Indian lager), then some vodka shots, then some port (only 10yo),
then some Tequila slammers, now we're onto the Glayver.... 'cept Lucy
has fallen asleep and I'm going full circle to sober again, as is my wont.

Happy New Year etc...


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



        
Date: 02 Jan 2007 16:28:56
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5000qpF1dskg8U1@mid.individual.net...
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> Howdy Danny!
>> It seems that I wax more eloquently when I've been sampling my booze.
>> Today I'm sipping a glass (or two or three or ??) of Laphroaig 30YO
>> single malt that a VERY good friend gave me for Christmas. It's very
>> good, but I'm still giving him Starbuck's gift cards as always.
>>
>
> I'm actually too pissed to write anything, never mind eloqueeeently :)
>
> Never mind your quality scottish beverages, we are working throuhg the
> remnants of Xmas - first the Amontilado sherry, then some Cobra
> (Indian lager), then some vodka shots, then some port (only 10yo),
> then some Tequila slammers, now we're onto the Glayver.... 'cept Lucy
> has fallen asleep and I'm going full circle to sober again, as is my
> wont.
>
> Happy New Year etc...
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>

Take care & have a good one Danny! "All the best in 2007!! {:-D
Cheers!
Sincerely,
Craig.



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 11:12:32
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
I don't think what you are saying would work. The only time the temperature
inside the HX approaches the boiler temperature is when the machine has been
sitting idle for a long time. So at most you could get one shot off this
way and then you'd have to wait a long time for the HX to recover. Even
then you have to account for heat loss in the group head. Under conditions
of flow, the water passing thru the HX does not equalize with the boiler
temp because it's not in there long enough so the boiler has to be kept
somewhat hotter than the target brew temp. That being said, some people
have experimented with keeping their HX boilers set at relatively low
temperatures but still well above shot temperatures (say 110C rather than a
"normal" 120C) so that they can use their HX with minimal flushiing.




<ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167753189.913591.27290@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I thought, but could be wrong, that the idea was to PID the boiler down
> to shot temperatures (rather than steam temps) which I assume would
> make the exchanger more or less irrelevant. It would basically limit
> the machine to making shots, albeit at a very stable temperature, most
> of the time. Then, when the user was having a dinner party or something
> where he/she wanted to make milk drinks, the PID could be set back to
> steaming temps and the HX would function as intended for the shots, and
> needing the cooling flush to work properly. Essentially the PID would
> be irrelevant when making milk drinks, but would control the temp of
> the boiler at shot temps for shot-only applications. This wouldn't work
> well for me because I mix straight shots with milk drinks on a fairly
> regular basis (and there are probably a lot of folks like me in this
> regard), but for someone who prefers straight shots most of the time
> and only brings the steamer into use occasionally, it sounds
> reasonable, no? Again, this is my understanding of the use of a PID in
> an HX machine, based on what I THOUGHT I'd read here previously. I'm
> learning from this discussion so far, though, so please keep the better
> information coming. Dave, was I correct in my interpretation of what
> you'd said previously?
>
> -Ray
>




   
Date: 01 Jan 2007 19:07:47
From:
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

Roque wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:59:15 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >Dave's posts are legitimate, as is his business. They are also spam by
> >most definitions. Wikipedia is a nice 'editable' source but certainly
> >not the defining source.
>
> I agree with your disdain for the wiki, but it was the quickest
> source, and, if you reread my post you will see that I said something
> to the effect that all other reputable sources agree. If you want to
> research the subject yourself, you will find that wiki's definition is
> pretty much consistent with (in large part because it comes from) all
> standard usages of term. Your hand-waving "most definitions" just
> doesn't wash. Likely, you did have a look and found the same yourself,
> thus your falling back on the absurd non-sequiter of "most
> definitions". Show me those "most definitions" if you can. Our
> friend, google, provides many clear definitions of spam. I submit that
> none describes dave's posts on alt.coffee. There are, as the wiki
> except notes, spam monitors for usenet. Odd, don't you think, that one
> doesn't find dave's posts listed there when so many of his detractors
> are so ready to hurl the spammer epithet his way?
>
> Once upon a time we had -- right here on alt.coffee -- a bizarrely
> extended discussion of what is and what is not spam. You can look that
> up if you like, but the bottom line is that just because you and your
> buddies don't like dave, it doesn't make his posts here spam. Words
> most emphatically do NOT mean what you and randy et al want them to
> mean.
>
> What you object to is dave. Your prerogative. Just tell it like it is:
> "I think dave is... (fill in whatever vile descriptor you like)" not
> "I think dave is a spammer."
>
> My personal prejudice is that someone who is so insecure that he has
> to be constantly telling the world about how much he has invested
> emotionally, financially and egotistically in some ridiculously
> expensive piece of coffee paraphernalia is a bit of a sad joke. The
> absurd rush to describe every new cup of espresso is more than a
> little bit akin to a newly potty-trained three year old recounting
> every trip to the toilet, wouldn't you say? But that fellow is not a
> spammer and is certainly entitled to look for his strokes on usenet.
> Oddly enough, he'll even get them. Go figure.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
As a fairly new member of this group, I now look forward to any post
from daveb just to read the replies. This thread may be my favorite.
What a wonderfully entertaining way to spend a few minutes on a rainy
Monday evening.
Having not much else to do I ran this thread thru Word's statistics
module and found that daveb's original post was 37 words (including
signature) while the replies ran in excess of 4500 words.
Bandwidth??
I really do prefer to watch these threads from the sidelines (strictly
for entertainment value) but in the interest of disclosure, I bought a
PID Silvia and Rocky SD from daveb. The entire process was handled very
well with quick responses to my questions, shipped in a very timely
manner and the install was done very professionally.
End of disclosure statement.
Stan "Doesn't take much to keep me entertained" S



    
Date: 01 Jan 2007 23:47:33
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Was Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00 - now "is DaveB a spammer or merely an unwelcome advertiser"
While possibly not fitting the exact definition of spam, I think you'd agree
that Dave is a persistent (and generally unwelcomed) advertiser in a medium
in which advertising is generally frowned upon beyond a few words in a
signature. This doesn't put him in the same category as the guys who send
out a million posts on herbal Viagra but it doesn't make him a good guy
either. I'm not sure I follow your logic here - because Dave is not a
"spammer" by what you say are the accepted definitions and because his posts
are less annoying to you than some others, it now becomes OK for him to
persistently use alt.coffee as a advertising medium and those who wish to
criticize him should just shut up? I don't think so. What are you getting
out of defending this nuisance of a man? Quibbling over whether a man is a
"spammer" or just an "unwelcome advertiser" is a silly sort of defense.

Describing your last cup of espresso seems to me to be right on topic and
non-commercial, so I don't see what's wrong with it, but if you do, then
killfile that person, the way I killfiled Dave a long time ago.



As for the bandwith thing, that's pretty much a concept of the past - people
now send whole DVD's down bittorrent so 4500 words is just a little blip.

I'm not sure what Dave's kit consists of, but I was able to PID my Oscar for
considerably less than $125. I used stuff I got at Auber Instruments
http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1 plus a few bits and
pieces from Radio Shack and so far it has performed flawlessly for many
months. I'd recommend that course to anyone reading this and I'd also tell
them that despite his good ebay record, I'd be wary of dealing with someone
who exhibits such poor social skills and makes himself an unwanted guest
after being asked to desist repeatedly. If I saw someone who was putting up
unauthorized billboards for his business in public park, I sure as hell
wouldn't buy from him even if he was advertising a reputable business.





<stan.shire@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167707267.113877.190450@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Roque wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:59:15 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
>> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Dave's posts are legitimate, as is his business. They are also spam by
>> >most definitions. Wikipedia is a nice 'editable' source but certainly
>> >not the defining source.
>>
>> I agree with your disdain for the wiki, but it was the quickest
>> source, and, if you reread my post you will see that I said something
>> to the effect that all other reputable sources agree. If you want to
>> research the subject yourself, you will find that wiki's definition is
>> pretty much consistent with (in large part because it comes from) all
>> standard usages of term. Your hand-waving "most definitions" just
>> doesn't wash. Likely, you did have a look and found the same yourself,
>> thus your falling back on the absurd non-sequiter of "most
>> definitions". Show me those "most definitions" if you can. Our
>> friend, google, provides many clear definitions of spam. I submit that
>> none describes dave's posts on alt.coffee. There are, as the wiki
>> except notes, spam monitors for usenet. Odd, don't you think, that one
>> doesn't find dave's posts listed there when so many of his detractors
>> are so ready to hurl the spammer epithet his way?
>>
>> Once upon a time we had -- right here on alt.coffee -- a bizarrely
>> extended discussion of what is and what is not spam. You can look that
>> up if you like, but the bottom line is that just because you and your
>> buddies don't like dave, it doesn't make his posts here spam. Words
>> most emphatically do NOT mean what you and randy et al want them to
>> mean.
>>
>> What you object to is dave. Your prerogative. Just tell it like it is:
>> "I think dave is... (fill in whatever vile descriptor you like)" not
>> "I think dave is a spammer."
>>
>> My personal prejudice is that someone who is so insecure that he has
>> to be constantly telling the world about how much he has invested
>> emotionally, financially and egotistically in some ridiculously
>> expensive piece of coffee paraphernalia is a bit of a sad joke. The
>> absurd rush to describe every new cup of espresso is more than a
>> little bit akin to a newly potty-trained three year old recounting
>> every trip to the toilet, wouldn't you say? But that fellow is not a
>> spammer and is certainly entitled to look for his strokes on usenet.
>> Oddly enough, he'll even get them. Go figure.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________
>> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
>> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
>> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
>> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
> As a fairly new member of this group, I now look forward to any post
> from daveb just to read the replies. This thread may be my favorite.
> What a wonderfully entertaining way to spend a few minutes on a rainy
> Monday evening.
> Having not much else to do I ran this thread thru Word's statistics
> module and found that daveb's original post was 37 words (including
> signature) while the replies ran in excess of 4500 words.
> Bandwidth??
> I really do prefer to watch these threads from the sidelines (strictly
> for entertainment value) but in the interest of disclosure, I bought a
> PID Silvia and Rocky SD from daveb. The entire process was handled very
> well with quick responses to my questions, shipped in a very timely
> manner and the install was done very professionally.
> End of disclosure statement.
> Stan "Doesn't take much to keep me entertained" S
>




 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 13:27:27
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
the rest of the parts cost maybe $10.00

thanks

dave
201

daveb wrote:
> Dual display controller
> 120/240 volt,
> 1/32 DIN,
> WITH THERMOCOUPLE
> AND SSR,
> ALL BRAND NEW
>
> $125 incl. shipping -- worldwide
>
>
>
> Dave b
> www.hitechespresso.com
> dave713 on the eBay
> tech support is always free.
> 877 286 2833 toll free in USA



  
Date: 30 Dec 2006 19:27:54
From: notbob
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On 2006-12-30, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
> the rest of the parts cost maybe $10.00

The rest of what parts? I didn't ask about other parts, I asked about
the parts you list in your Sylvia PID kit ebay ad.

I'm inquiring about specific information on the components you list,
like the brand name and model number of the temp controller and the
ssr. Are they American made or foreign made? Are they reputable
components or low cost knockoffs? What are the specifications of the
tc and temp controller and ssr? Voltages, temp ranges, etc. These
are all valid question any serious buyer would ask.

This is not a joke. Your kit appears to be cost competitive with the
other DIY kit, but one can't make a useful comparison without all the
facts. Are you willing to provide this information or is this the kind
of run-around one can expect doing business with you?

nb


   
Date: 18 Jan 2007 14:39:42
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
I'm glad you are happy, Lloyd.

That is what it is all about.



   
Date: 18 Jan 2007 13:02:04
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail
sorry, it was 22 seconds



   
Date: 18 Jan 2007 05:19:51
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail

took about 3 seconds:

"Ease of setpoint adjustment, control stability, reliability all point
to PID control as a good solution for espresso machines. On the bad
side, pressurestats react faster and turn the heater on full-blast.
It's a niggling issue compared to the plusses."

-Greg

notbob wrote:
> On 2007-01-18, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Mr. Scace seems to differ with you on that. please search for his
> > post.
>
> Your claim. You search.
>
> nb



    
Date: 18 Jan 2007 21:52:00
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail

In article <1169126391.051393.120810@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com >,
daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>took about 3 seconds:
>
>"Ease of setpoint adjustment, control stability, reliability all point
>to PID control as a good solution for espresso machines. On the bad
>side, pressurestats react faster and turn the heater on full-blast.
>It's a niggling issue compared to the plusses."
>
>-Greg
>
>notbob wrote:
>> On 2007-01-18, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Mr. Scace seems to differ with you on that. please search for his
>> > post.
>>
>> Your claim. You search.
>>
>> nb

"Setpoint adjustment" is a joke on a HX. You have to flush to manage
temperature unless you turn down the boiler to the point where you can't
steam at all.

At that point you've got a single-boiler machine but you bought a HX. Yes,
you have excellent temperature stability with a PID on the HX machine in
that situation.

But if you wanted a single boiler, you probably should have bought one.

"Control stability" is a non-event; for a given boiler pressure the water
in the boiler is at a known, fixed temperature. It has to be (again, this
is that physics thing)

Reliability is valid point. A SSR is (theoretically) more reliable than a
pressurestat (potentially with a relay.)

However, you can buy two or three spare pressurestats for the cost of your
PID kit. Is it THREE TIMES as reliable? That's a much tougher question.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind


    
Date: 18 Jan 2007 11:43:49
From: notbob
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail
On 2007-01-18, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> took about 3 seconds:

A statement which is either a gross exaggeration intended as a
personal slight or an outright lie. So much for reform.

> "Ease of setpoint adjustment, control stability, reliability all point
> to PID control as a good solution for espresso machines. On the bad
> side, pressurestats react faster and turn the heater on full-blast.
> It's a niggling issue compared to the plusses."

You have drawn the wrong conclusions from what I actually stated.

nb


   
Date: 17 Jan 2007 22:52:04
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
B:

I am using a wet SS TC in the boiler water.

(sorta) glad to see you got power back on.

regards

dave
208



   
Date: 17 Jan 2007 22:44:39
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail
nb:

Mr. Scace seems to differ with you on that. please search for his
post.

d



    
Date: 18 Jan 2007 01:34:20
From: notbob
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail
On 2007-01-18, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> Mr. Scace seems to differ with you on that. please search for his
> post.

Your claim. You search.

nb


   
Date: 17 Jan 2007 17:38:40
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
I see you are very very busy on dozens of 'forums' , so I will limit
my response to you.

I am bored by your pompous nonsense. apparently you have not read much
of the advantages of electronics in HX. Even 'ken fox' my sworn
opponent enumerates the many benefits of the 'pid'.

But you are welcome to just yak about theory.

please re-read my ebay listings and the comments from actual owners of
the machines I have completed about 2 dozen to date. several of whom
are back to have a second machine done.

so have a nice time on all those many forums out there, "karl", and
troll elsewhere.

bye.

dave
877 286 2833



    
Date: 18 Jan 2007 04:23:27
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Dave, thermodynamics and the principles of physics don't change because you
charge people 2x the cost of the parts for your "kit" and 4x the cost if you
do 15 minutes of work for them.

It does, however, make good advertising copy.

Show me some <blind taste tests > and I'll buy into it. Of course you can't,
and anecdotes are always slanted towards positive results.

Most people who pay for something are reluctant to think they didn't get
much (if anything) of value from it.

If you just like a digital display, ok, that's fine. But your "kit" still
has a k-up of 100%+ on the price.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

In article <1169084320.710130.268650@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>I see you are very very busy on dozens of 'forums' , so I will limit
>my response to you.
>
>I am bored by your pompous nonsense. apparently you have not read much
>of the advantages of electronics in HX. Even 'ken fox' my sworn
>opponent enumerates the many benefits of the 'pid'.
>
>But you are welcome to just yak about theory.
>
>please re-read my ebay listings and the comments from actual owners of
>the machines I have completed about 2 dozen to date. several of whom
>are back to have a second machine done.
>
>so have a nice time on all those many forums out there, "karl", and
>troll elsewhere.
>
>bye.
>
>dave
>877 286 2833
>




     
Date: 17 Jan 2007 20:34:13
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
I have no idea who you are, and you can slam Dave for being commercial on a
usegroup (though one might argue that this is an unmoderated group, so if
you want perfect protocal, you might skip the alt.* groups and stick to the
extensive moderated forums on coffeegeek and elsewhere), but I don't see any
particular reason for slamming him on charging for a kit he put together or
for installation.

Some people don't have the time to figure it all out themselves, esp. the
electronics. I remember years ago when I wanted to start roasting, I was
perfectly happy to pay some extra money to a coffee hobbyist to pick out the
right kind of popper and disable the overheat thingamobob.

If you want to slam PID-ing, that's something else entirely. If you choose
to be a skeptic, I don't know why you want to slam Dave, as you'd be in the
minority in dismissing electronic temperature control, at least in a.c.

C

"Karl Denninger" <karl@FS.denninger.net > wrote in message
news:3DCrh.66517$X97.7340@newsfe18.lga...
> Dave, thermodynamics and the principles of physics don't change because
> you
> charge people 2x the cost of the parts for your "kit" and 4x the cost if
> you
> do 15 minutes of work for them.
>
> It does, however, make good advertising copy.
>
> Show me some <blind taste tests> and I'll buy into it. Of course you
> can't,
> and anecdotes are always slanted towards positive results.
>
> Most people who pay for something are reluctant to think they didn't get
> much (if anything) of value from it.
>
> If you just like a digital display, ok, that's fine. But your "kit" still
> has a k-up of 100%+ on the price.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
> Activist
> http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
> http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
> http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind
>
> In article <1169084320.710130.268650@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>I see you are very very busy on dozens of 'forums' , so I will limit
>>my response to you.
>>
>>I am bored by your pompous nonsense. apparently you have not read much
>>of the advantages of electronics in HX. Even 'ken fox' my sworn
>>opponent enumerates the many benefits of the 'pid'.
>>
>>But you are welcome to just yak about theory.
>>
>>please re-read my ebay listings and the comments from actual owners of
>>the machines I have completed about 2 dozen to date. several of whom
>>are back to have a second machine done.
>>
>>so have a nice time on all those many forums out there, "karl", and
>>troll elsewhere.
>>
>>bye.
>>
>>dave
>>877 286 2833
>>
>
>




      
Date: 18 Jan 2007 05:26:41
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

PIDing a H/E provides little value because:

1. You are measuring the wrong thing. You do not want to measure
temperature - you want to measure pressure - when you have superheated water
in the system as is the case here. If you do not understand why, then you
do not understand how superheated water flashing to steam works (which, by
the way, is why the HX design works as well as it does in the first place.)
Thsi is a matter of physics and is an invarient regardless of who made the
machine in question.

2. BECAUSE you are measuring the wrong thing you are going to wind up
with a response to cooling that is in fact "behind", especially when steam
is consumed. While this won't bite you when you draw shots (since the
thermal mass of the water in the boiler is huge compared to the volume
drawn through it for a shot) it WILL matter when you crank open the steam
tap to steam milk. The conventional machine will respond materially faster
to this and turn the element on before the PID controller can react, since
the PID doesn't have any way to know that the pressure in the boiler is
collapsing due to the open steam wand. In addition most H/E boilers have
no means of directly measuring the water temperature (e.g. a thermowell
as with a single boiler machine designed for this) and as such the
thermocouple typically has to go on the outside shell of the H/E, which
means there is even MORE delay (since the thermal mass of the boiler shell
enters into the equation too.) The reason for this is that when a steam
tap is opened on a pressurestat machine the pressure will fall as soon as
the steam begins to flash off and the heating element will be energized (at
full power) to replace the energy you are drawing off. With a PID you must
wait until the pressure falls off, the steam flashes off and <TEMPERATURE >
of both the water AND the boiler's thermal mass begins to fall; the PID will
then ramp up the element, but will not bring it to full power until a given
deviation from desired temp is established. The difference will be quite
noticable and there's nothing a PID can do to take care of this.

3. The temperature stability of the water in the H/E with a traditional
pressurestat is MUCH better than that of a single boiler with a mechanical
thermostat. This is, again, due to how superheated water works when under
pressure and how pressure regulates temperature under such conditions.
Relatively large percentage changes in pressure result in relatively small
eprcentage changes in water temperature. This is why a pressurestat works
well in a traditional HX design in the first place. Again, this is all a
matter of physics and has nothing to do with who's controls are being used.

The benefits of a PID on a HX machine are to allow you to easily change
the boiler's temperature and silent operation (since there is no mechanical
relay or clicking of the stat.) With a traditional pressurestat you control
boiler temperature by setting the pressure, which controls the temperature
for the above reasons. With a PID you change the temperature which controls
the pressure. While this sounds better for brewing coffee it isn't when you
want to draw steam and it only ginally changes the hassle factor inherent
in a HX when pulling shots.

That is because it doesn't change (really) how you control brewing
temperature, because you still need to flush unless you turn down the
boiler so far that you can't steam worth crap any longer, effectively
turning your HX into a single-boiler machine.

Why the hell would you do that? If you want a single-boiler machine, buy one!

If you DO turn it down that far then you have to wait for it to recover if
you turn it back up to steam (just as you do with a single boiler with a
switch.) If you DON'T then you still have to flush (albiet less) because
the water in the HX is still too hot. The same thing can be accomplished by
dialing a traditional PS down somewhat. If you intend to both steam and
brew at the same time you must run the boiler pressure high enough to
produce the steam you want, which means you must run the TEMPERATURE high
enough to produce that steam.

There is no "free lunch" received by PIDing a HX and temperature stability -
unless you turn the machine into a single-boiler by cranking it down that far
- isn't going to be materially impacted either. You still wind up having to
flush and time to get the stability you want because the PID cannot "see" or
affect the residual water in the HX loop.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

In article <eomtch$f1j$1@news.Stanford.EDU >,
Cordovero <cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:
>
>
>I have no idea who you are, and you can slam Dave for being commercial on a
>usegroup (though one might argue that this is an unmoderated group, so if
>you want perfect protocal, you might skip the alt.* groups and stick to the
>extensive moderated forums on coffeegeek and elsewhere), but I don't see any
>particular reason for slamming him on charging for a kit he put together or
>for installation.
>
>Some people don't have the time to figure it all out themselves, esp. the
>electronics. I remember years ago when I wanted to start roasting, I was
>perfectly happy to pay some extra money to a coffee hobbyist to pick out the
>right kind of popper and disable the overheat thingamobob.
>
>If you want to slam PID-ing, that's something else entirely. If you choose
>to be a skeptic, I don't know why you want to slam Dave, as you'd be in the
>minority in dismissing electronic temperature control, at least in a.c.
>
>C
>
>"Karl Denninger" <karl@FS.denninger.net> wrote in message
>news:3DCrh.66517$X97.7340@newsfe18.lga...
>> Dave, thermodynamics and the principles of physics don't change because
>> you
>> charge people 2x the cost of the parts for your "kit" and 4x the cost if
>> you
>> do 15 minutes of work for them.
>>
>> It does, however, make good advertising copy.
>>
>> Show me some <blind taste tests> and I'll buy into it. Of course you
>> can't,
>> and anecdotes are always slanted towards positive results.
>>
>> Most people who pay for something are reluctant to think they didn't get
>> much (if anything) of value from it.
>>
>> If you just like a digital display, ok, that's fine. But your "kit" still
>> has a k-up of 100%+ on the price.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights
>> Activist
>> http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
>> http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
>> http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind
>>
>> In article <1169084320.710130.268650@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>I see you are very very busy on dozens of 'forums' , so I will limit
>>>my response to you.
>>>
>>>I am bored by your pompous nonsense. apparently you have not read much
>>>of the advantages of electronics in HX. Even 'ken fox' my sworn
>>>opponent enumerates the many benefits of the 'pid'.
>>>
>>>But you are welcome to just yak about theory.
>>>
>>>please re-read my ebay listings and the comments from actual owners of
>>>the machines I have completed about 2 dozen to date. several of whom
>>>are back to have a second machine done.
>>>
>>>so have a nice time on all those many forums out there, "karl", and
>>>troll elsewhere.
>>>
>>>bye.
>>>
>>>dave
>>>877 286 2833
>>>
>>
>>
>
>




       
Date: 18 Jan 2007 00:08:46
From: notbob
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On 2007-01-18, Karl Denninger <karl@FS.denninger.net > wrote:
>
> PIDing a H/E provides little value because:
>
> 1. You are measuring the wrong thing.

Very well done explanation. Thank you.

nb


       
Date: 18 Jan 2007 05:40:51
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:26:41 GMT, karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl
Denninger) wrote:

>2. BECAUSE you are measuring the wrong thing you are going to wind up
>with a response to cooling that is in fact "behind", especially when steam
>is consumed. While this won't bite you when you draw shots (since the
>thermal mass of the water in the boiler is huge compared to the volume
>drawn through it for a shot) it WILL matter when you crank open the steam
>tap to steam milk. The conventional machine will respond materially faster
>to this and turn the element on before the PID controller can react,

actually, thermocouples in the boiler provide pretty rapid response.
you have to account for the pstat deadband when comparing response
times. the pstat might cycle between, say, 1.2 to 1.4 bar, but if you
open the steam wand at 1.4 bar, then the pstat won't kick in until
1.2. a PID would respond almost immediately.

where the PID bites is in recovery time after steaming, as the
controller acts to minimize temperature overshoot. for steaming, we
really don't give a rat's ass about temperature stability, so this
behavior is undesired. it can be reduced through aggressive tuning,
but i still think a pstat is better for a heavy steam-use environment.



>3. The temperature stability of the water in the H/E with a traditional
>pressurestat is MUCH better than that of a single boiler with a mechanical
>thermostat. This is, again, due to how superheated water works when under
>pressure and how pressure regulates temperature under such conditions.
>Relatively large percentage changes in pressure result in relatively small
>eprcentage changes in water temperature. This is why a pressurestat works
>well in a traditional HX design in the first place. Again, this is all a
>matter of physics and has nothing to do with who's controls are being used.

i'm not so sure this is the case. i've measured the temp of water in
the HX of a machine, and "stability" is a word i would not associate
with that environment.


--barry "got the graphs somewhere"


        
Date: 18 Jan 2007 22:00:48
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

In article <an1uq2hquij73rdp2i2d0nalh8vcqqq3k6@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <coffe@mindspring.com > wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:26:41 GMT, karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl
>Denninger) wrote:
>
> >2. BECAUSE you are measuring the wrong thing you are going to wind up
> >with a response to cooling that is in fact "behind", especially when steam
> >is consumed. While this won't bite you when you draw shots (since the
> >thermal mass of the water in the boiler is huge compared to the volume
> >drawn through it for a shot) it WILL matter when you crank open the steam
> >tap to steam milk. The conventional machine will respond materially faster
> >to this and turn the element on before the PID controller can react,
>
>actually, thermocouples in the boiler provide pretty rapid response.
>you have to account for the pstat deadband when comparing response
>times. the pstat might cycle between, say, 1.2 to 1.4 bar, but if you
>open the steam wand at 1.4 bar, then the pstat won't kick in until
>1.2. a PID would respond almost immediately.
>
>where the PID bites is in recovery time after steaming, as the
>controller acts to minimize temperature overshoot. for steaming, we
>really don't give a rat's ass about temperature stability, so this
>behavior is undesired. it can be reduced through aggressive tuning,
>but i still think a pstat is better for a heavy steam-use environment.
>
>
>
> >3. The temperature stability of the water in the H/E with a traditional
> >pressurestat is MUCH better than that of a single boiler with a mechanical
> >thermostat. This is, again, due to how superheated water works when under
> >pressure and how pressure regulates temperature under such conditions.
> >Relatively large percentage changes in pressure result in relatively small
> >eprcentage changes in water temperature. This is why a pressurestat works
> >well in a traditional HX design in the first place. Again, this is all a
> >matter of physics and has nothing to do with who's controls are being used.
>
>i'm not so sure this is the case. i've measured the temp of water in
>the HX of a machine, and "stability" is a word i would not associate
>with that environment.

You have to flush the HX machine because the water that "sits" will be too
hot.

However, once you flush a HX of the overheated water, its behavior is
absolutely predictable for a given flow rate and temperature differential.
If you put water in at XF, it will exit at YF, once the overheated water is
flushed out and the HX equilibriates.

This is the principle behind flushing HX machines to control temperature at
the head. Yes, you get a "humped" profile - as opposed to a rising sloped
one.

Either way, nobody is making a machine today with a brewpath controlled at
the desired brewing temperature from one end to the other. If/when that
happens, you will be able to reliably deliver water to the puck at the same
temperature all the time.

But for now, you have a choice between "too cold and warming up as the group
equilibriates" and "too hot and cooling down, then warming slightly as the
group equilibriates."

But is there <REALLY > a problem with that? If what's in the cup pleases you,
what more is there to talk about?

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind


        
Date: 17 Jan 2007 23:56:45
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <an1uq2hquij73rdp2i2d0nalh8vcqqq3k6@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:26:41 GMT, karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl
> Denninger) wrote:
>
> >2. BECAUSE you are measuring the wrong thing you are going to wind up
> >with a response to cooling that is in fact "behind", especially when steam
> >is consumed. While this won't bite you when you draw shots (since the
> >thermal mass of the water in the boiler is huge compared to the volume
> >drawn through it for a shot) it WILL matter when you crank open the steam
> >tap to steam milk. The conventional machine will respond materially faster
> >to this and turn the element on before the PID controller can react,
>
> actually, thermocouples in the boiler provide pretty rapid response.
> you have to account for the pstat deadband when comparing response
> times. the pstat might cycle between, say, 1.2 to 1.4 bar, but if you
> open the steam wand at 1.4 bar, then the pstat won't kick in until
> 1.2. a PID would respond almost immediately.
>
> where the PID bites is in recovery time after steaming, as the
> controller acts to minimize temperature overshoot. for steaming, we
> really don't give a rat's ass about temperature stability, so this
> behavior is undesired. it can be reduced through aggressive tuning,
> but i still think a pstat is better for a heavy steam-use environment.
>
>
>
> >3. The temperature stability of the water in the H/E with a traditional
> >pressurestat is MUCH better than that of a single boiler with a mechanical
> >thermostat. This is, again, due to how superheated water works when under
> >pressure and how pressure regulates temperature under such conditions.
> >Relatively large percentage changes in pressure result in relatively small
> >eprcentage changes in water temperature. This is why a pressurestat works
> >well in a traditional HX design in the first place. Again, this is all a
> >matter of physics and has nothing to do with who's controls are being used.
>
> i'm not so sure this is the case. i've measured the temp of water in
> the HX of a machine, and "stability" is a word i would not associate
> with that environment.
>
>
> --barry "got the graphs somewhere"

The only time I've seen the temp of the boiler water as expressed with
the boiler pressure go down is after drawing off hot water for an
Americano or a cup of tea/hot chocolate when it draws in water to the
boiler.

I've yet to see it burp when steaming, even after running the steam for
a 5 minute test to check just that. And drawing brew water doesn't
affect it at all.

This on the Izzo Alex, I can't talk about any others because I haven't
seen them.


         
Date: 18 Jan 2007 06:01:07
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:56:45 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>I've yet to see it burp when steaming, even after running the steam for
>a 5 minute test to check just that. And drawing brew water doesn't
>affect it at all.
>
>This on the Izzo Alex, I can't talk about any others because I haven't
>seen them.


but you're using a surface mounted probe, aren't you? that
configuration has considerable lag between the process and the
measurement.



          
Date: 18 Jan 2007 01:37:29
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <q73uq2hqsq9tm5i1eqap4lqjo6abvfvpk7@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:56:45 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >I've yet to see it burp when steaming, even after running the steam for
> >a 5 minute test to check just that. And drawing brew water doesn't
> >affect it at all.
> >
> >This on the Izzo Alex, I can't talk about any others because I haven't
> >seen them.
>
>
> but you're using a surface mounted probe, aren't you? that
> configuration has considerable lag between the process and the
> measurement.

Mine is a stock Alex, no mods at all.


   
Date: 17 Jan 2007 16:45:20
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Really!!

have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?

answer: No.


dave



Karl Denninger wrote:

>
> A pressurestat with a relatively wide deadband (e.g. 0.1 bar) is going to
> produce EXTREMELY precise temperatures once you learn to do your flush
> routine.
>
> Why? Because that's a relatively LARGE pressure change in absolute terms
> (e.g. 10%) but in terms of TEMPERATURE change its small. And that's what
> matters, right?
>
> If there's a mechanical relay on the pressurestat (to keep the Pstat from
> burning up its contacts with heater current directly) then put a SSR in
> place of the mechanical relay. There goes (most of) the noise.
>
> The problem with a PID on a HX is that when steaming you really do want "all
> on, right now" once the pressure drops. Since a PID measures TEMPERATURE,
> and that is going to lag pressure materially (due to how steam flashes from
> supersaturated water under pressure) you will see a lag in response compared
> to a regular presurestat machine when you steam.
>
> --
> --
> Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
> http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
> http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
> http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind



    
Date: 18 Jan 2007 04:40:54
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On 17 Jan 2007 16:45:20 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>Really!!
>
>have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?
>
>answer: No.
>


i have. steam recovery sucks. i'd only recommend a PID if one isn't
concerned with steaming.



     
Date: 18 Jan 2007 05:27:41
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

In article <0gutq2932ihe3jeitibv4sletbodbt2894@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <coffe@mindspring.com > wrote:
>
>
>On 17 Jan 2007 16:45:20 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Really!!
> >
> >have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?
> >
> >answer: No.
> >
>
>
>i have. steam recovery sucks. i'd only recommend a PID if one isn't
>concerned with steaming.

Yep.

Let me guess - the person who sold that guy the PID for his HX didn't bother
to explain to him why that was going to happen before hs spent the money,
right?

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind


      
Date: 17 Jan 2007 23:58:36
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <hzDrh.30625$sE7.12761@newsfe21.lga >,
karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl Denninger) wrote:

> In article <0gutq2932ihe3jeitibv4sletbodbt2894@4ax.com>,
> Barry Jarrett <coffe@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >On 17 Jan 2007 16:45:20 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Really!!
> > >
> > >have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?
> > >
> > >answer: No.
> > >
> >
> >
> >i have. steam recovery sucks. i'd only recommend a PID if one isn't
> >concerned with steaming.
>
> Yep.
>
> Let me guess - the person who sold that guy the PID for his HX didn't bother
> to explain to him why that was going to happen before hs spent the money,
> right?
>
> --

I don't think so. I read Dave's writeup on his website and he said that
you use the PID to reduce the boiler temp, but then would need about 70
seconds to bring that temp back up to where steaming would be good. Or
at least that was the way I understood it.

That write-up was what convinced me that PIDing an HX wasn't what I
wanted nor needed.


       
Date: 18 Jan 2007 21:53:54
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

In article <lloydparsons-DD9A4B.23583617012007@individual.net >,
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>
>
>In article <hzDrh.30625$sE7.12761@newsfe21.lga>,
> karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl Denninger) wrote:
>
>> In article <0gutq2932ihe3jeitibv4sletbodbt2894@4ax.com>,
>> Barry Jarrett <coffe@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >On 17 Jan 2007 16:45:20 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Really!!
>> > >
>> > >have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?
>> > >
>> > >answer: No.
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >i have. steam recovery sucks. i'd only recommend a PID if one isn't
>> >concerned with steaming.
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> Let me guess - the person who sold that guy the PID for his HX didn't bother
>> to explain to him why that was going to happen before hs spent the money,
>> right?
>>
>> --
>
>I don't think so. I read Dave's writeup on his website and he said that
>you use the PID to reduce the boiler temp, but then would need about 70
>seconds to bring that temp back up to where steaming would be good. Or
>at least that was the way I understood it.
>
>That write-up was what convinced me that PIDing an HX wasn't what I
>wanted nor needed.

The "take away" from that "write up" is that you just turned your (more
expensive) HX machine into a single-boiler.

Congratulations - you threw (at least) $200 away.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind


        
Date: 18 Jan 2007 16:02:47
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <S%Rrh.21203$cv2.18768@newsfe13.lga >,
karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl Denninger) wrote:

> In article <lloydparsons-DD9A4B.23583617012007@individual.net>,
> Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >In article <hzDrh.30625$sE7.12761@newsfe21.lga>,
> > karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl Denninger) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <0gutq2932ihe3jeitibv4sletbodbt2894@4ax.com>,
> >> Barry Jarrett <coffe@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >On 17 Jan 2007 16:45:20 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Really!!
> >> > >
> >> > >have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?
> >> > >
> >> > >answer: No.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >i have. steam recovery sucks. i'd only recommend a PID if one isn't
> >> >concerned with steaming.
> >>
> >> Yep.
> >>
> >> Let me guess - the person who sold that guy the PID for his HX didn't
> >> bother
> >> to explain to him why that was going to happen before hs spent the money,
> >> right?
> >>
> >> --
> >
> >I don't think so. I read Dave's writeup on his website and he said that
> >you use the PID to reduce the boiler temp, but then would need about 70
> >seconds to bring that temp back up to where steaming would be good. Or
> >at least that was the way I understood it.
> >
> >That write-up was what convinced me that PIDing an HX wasn't what I
> >wanted nor needed.
>
> The "take away" from that "write up" is that you just turned your (more
> expensive) HX machine into a single-boiler.
>
> Congratulations - you threw (at least) $200 away.
>
> --

Reading comprehension is tough for you, huh? ;-)

Note that I said was that Dave's own write-up convinced me NOT to get
it. I went with a stock Izzo Alex instead and am tickled pink as well
as being properly caffeinated! ;=0


      
Date: 18 Jan 2007 05:41:49
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:27:41 GMT, karl@FS.denninger.net (Karl
Denninger) wrote:

>Let me guess - the person who sold that guy the PID for his HX didn't bother
>to explain to him why that was going to happen before hs spent the money,
>right?

what guy? me?



    
Date: 18 Jan 2007 01:16:03
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Heh Dave - quit spamming. I thought you were a nice enough guy.

Guess I was wrong. Glad I gave my money to someone else..... after I
checked the BS quotient against some real-world gear in a real-world
installation.

The priy advantage to the PID on an HX is that its silent and removes a
mechanical switch from the machine (and substitutes electronics for that,
which, while theoretically more reliable, may or may not be in practice.)

The laws of phase-change physics aren't something you can repeal through
the use of electronics.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Water_vapor_pressure_graph.jpg

Note that as the pressure drops by 0.1 bar, the temperature change for the
boiling point of water is quite small. This is important because the liquid
water in the HX will always be at that temperature for a given pressure -
never more - as higher temperature causes more steam to form, which raises
the pressure.

This property of water under pressure and its near-absolute stability of
temperature at the steam point at a given pressure is exploited to make
the HX design possible.

Heh, if you think you can taste 1F differences in water temperature through
the puck, be my guest. The graphs I've seen from non-PIDed HX machines
say you can get within 1F repeatedly through technique.

You won't get there on a single-boiler machine without a PID because there
its degree-for-degree on the water in the boiler .vs. the water in the puck.

On a HX that is both not the case and the pressure change does not
result in a percentage-equal change in temperature. If your steam boiler
goes from 1.2 to 1.1 bar (an ~8% change in pressure) water temperature in
the boiler changes by somewhere around 1%. This means that to really get
"great" control with a PID on a HX machine you want the "PID" to measure
boiler <PRESSURE >, not temperature.

There are plenty of published temperature logs posted around the net that
say you can get the temperature stability on a HX WITHOUT needing a PID, and
this is supported by the physics involved.

(Dave: Don't argue with guys who passed college physics!)

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind

In article <1169081119.763415.225790@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com >,
daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>Really!!
>
>have you actually used one? with a 'pid' controller, that is?
>
>answer: No.
>
>
>dave
>
>
>
>Karl Denninger wrote:
>
>>
>> A pressurestat with a relatively wide deadband (e.g. 0.1 bar) is going to
>> produce EXTREMELY precise temperatures once you learn to do your flush
>> routine.
>>
>> Why? Because that's a relatively LARGE pressure change in absolute terms
>> (e.g. 10%) but in terms of TEMPERATURE change its small. And that's what
>> matters, right?
>>
>> If there's a mechanical relay on the pressurestat (to keep the Pstat from
>> burning up its contacts with heater current directly) then put a SSR in
>> place of the mechanical relay. There goes (most of) the noise.
>>
>> The problem with a PID on a HX is that when steaming you really do want "all
>> on, right now" once the pressure drops. Since a PID measures TEMPERATURE,
>> and that is going to lag pressure materially (due to how steam flashes from
>> supersaturated water under pressure) you will see a lag in response compared
>> to a regular presurestat machine when you steam.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
>> http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
>> http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
>> http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind
>




   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 07:45:26
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Yes I understand that.

but I do tire of typing. and I want to 'pid' YOUR izzo.

BTW here is a quote from HB (re the B II)

"In the graph below, you will see that the brew boiler temp oscillates
5-8 degrees Fahrenheit around the set point of the stock controller and
the steam pressure oscillates between 1.1 and 1.25 bar. The variation
in the steam pressure is due to pressurestat inconsistencies (sticky
diaphragm); one of the problems observed in the system was the tendency
for the brew temperatures to oscillate with off-idle performance due to
the temperature swings of the boiler. These temperature oscillations
were not larger than 1=B0F in usage but were enough to be noticeable. "



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 13:47:53
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167752726.277895.15460@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> Yes I understand that.
>
> but I do tire of typing. and I want to 'pid' YOUR izzo.
>
> BTW here is a quote from HB (re the B II)
>
> "In the graph below, you will see that the brew boiler temp oscillates
> 5-8 degrees Fahrenheit around the set point of the stock controller and
> the steam pressure oscillates between 1.1 and 1.25 bar. The variation
> in the steam pressure is due to pressurestat inconsistencies (sticky
> diaphragm); one of the problems observed in the system was the tendency
> for the brew temperatures to oscillate with off-idle performance due to
> the temperature swings of the boiler. These temperature oscillations
> were not larger than 1?F in usage but were enough to be noticeable. "

I don't see that much variation, possibly because the Alex has a tight
deadband.

As to you PIDing my Izzo, well you better be planning a road trip,
'cause it ain't leaving my house! ;-)

Now if you wanted to do a kit...


     
Date: 02 Jan 2007 20:55:28
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:47:53 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>I don't see that much variation, possibly because the Alex has a tight
>deadband.

where are you measuring?




      
Date: 02 Jan 2007 14:58:54
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <6lhlp2hdkqrvhmsr2q42vhqs9bkm9f6o7q@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:47:53 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't see that much variation, possibly because the Alex has a tight
> >deadband.
>
> where are you measuring?

Temp in the cup as a final test after adjusting. I literally can time
it and be right on the money.

But looking at the pressure gauge, I get very little movement between
cycles of the heater. Also it was noted in a thread on HB that the temp
deadband was about .5F in the boiler.

It cycles often enough that one of the new buyers returned it because he
didn't like the noise from the relay so often.


       
Date: 02 Jan 2007 22:27:40
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:58:54 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>In article <6lhlp2hdkqrvhmsr2q42vhqs9bkm9f6o7q@4ax.com>,
> Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:47:53 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
>> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I don't see that much variation, possibly because the Alex has a tight
>> >deadband.
>>
>> where are you measuring?
>
>Temp in the cup as a final test after adjusting. I literally can time
>it and be right on the money.
>

temp "stability" in the cup is not a good indicator of temp at the
showerscreen. the coffee grounds, portafilter, air drop, cup temp,
and brewed espresso temp all act to attenuate the temperature. your
temp in the cup is, in essence, an "average" reading of the brewing
system and brewing environment. you might be shocked to find out just
how unstable your brew temperature really is.

--barry "bring alex to the xmas party and we'll scace him"


        
Date: 02 Jan 2007 17:29:13
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1tmlp21caj645n45h16ju9sgeama5sbslu@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 14:58:54 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <6lhlp2hdkqrvhmsr2q42vhqs9bkm9f6o7q@4ax.com>,
> > Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:47:53 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> >> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I don't see that much variation, possibly because the Alex has a tight
> >> >deadband.
> >>
> >> where are you measuring?
> >
> >Temp in the cup as a final test after adjusting. I literally can time
> >it and be right on the money.
> >
>
> temp "stability" in the cup is not a good indicator of temp at the
> showerscreen. the coffee grounds, portafilter, air drop, cup temp,
> and brewed espresso temp all act to attenuate the temperature. your
> temp in the cup is, in essence, an "average" reading of the brewing
> system and brewing environment. you might be shocked to find out just
> how unstable your brew temperature really is.
>
> --barry "bring alex to the xmas party and we'll scace him"

'scace him'? Not in mixed company! ;-0

Actually it would have to be mixed company, 'cause Alex is a her. One
of the founders of Grupo Izzo's daughters.

You left out the part about the boiler pressure guage not hardly moving
between cycles of the heater...

Surely that has something to do with all this.


         
Date: 03 Jan 2007 00:27:23
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 17:29:13 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>You left out the part about the boiler pressure guage not hardly moving
>between cycles of the heater...
>
>Surely that has something to do with all this.

when we're talking about single degrees stability, or even tenths of
degree stability, then the boiler pressure gauge (especially the cheap
ones on a home esp. machine) hardly seems like a reliable measure.

here's some old info:
http://www.angry-bunny.com/stuff/scace/scace1.htm



          
Date: 02 Jan 2007 22:44:07
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <tvtlp2hl13fqqmt5vs6dec1gk6jo6qmtjj@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 17:29:13 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >You left out the part about the boiler pressure guage not hardly moving
> >between cycles of the heater...
> >
> >Surely that has something to do with all this.
>
> when we're talking about single degrees stability, or even tenths of
> degree stability, then the boiler pressure gauge (especially the cheap
> ones on a home esp. machine) hardly seems like a reliable measure.
>
> here's some old info:
> http://www.angry-bunny.com/stuff/scace/scace1.htm

Looks pretty nifty, I'll probably never do it.

That is unless someone close by has the stuff to do it with.


           
Date: 03 Jan 2007 05:00:53
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:44:07 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>
>That is unless someone close by has the stuff to do it with.


i'm probably the closest.



            
Date: 02 Jan 2007 23:16:05
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <p3emp2todlm13kjeks6au3odjs90ooubah@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 22:44:07 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >That is unless someone close by has the stuff to do it with.
>
>
> i'm probably the closest.

You're up in the Chicago area? That's about 350 miles from me.


             
Date: 03 Jan 2007 05:24:39
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:16:05 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:

>> i'm probably the closest.
>
>You're up in the Chicago area? That's about 350 miles from me.

st louis. the shop is in belleville. 38 32 15 N, 89 57 31.5 W
you're only about 90 miles away.



              
Date: 02 Jan 2007 23:29:04
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <h3fmp25j9rbhvnmoam4o80adkkfnp53nt6@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:16:05 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >> i'm probably the closest.
> >
> >You're up in the Chicago area? That's about 350 miles from me.
>
> st louis. the shop is in belleville. 38 32 15 N, 89 57 31.5 W
> you're only about 90 miles away.

Cool. If I get the urge and you are willing, I might email you and set
up a date/time to give it a whirl.


               
Date: 04 Jan 2007 11:10:37
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-74B2AB.23290402012007@individual.net...
> In article <h3fmp25j9rbhvnmoam4o80adkkfnp53nt6@4ax.com>,
> Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:16:05 -0600, Lloyd Parsons
> > <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> i'm probably the closest.
> > >
> > >You're up in the Chicago area? That's about 350 miles from me.
> >
> > st louis. the shop is in belleville. 38 32 15 N, 89 57 31.5 W
> > you're only about 90 miles away.
>
> Cool. If I get the urge and you are willing, I might email you and set
> up a date/time to give it a whirl.

If I were you, as it is so close, I'd accept his gracious invite and go to
his xmas party with your machine. You may never get another chance as good
to meet so many knowledgable coffee people all at one time...




   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 03:39:21
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On Jan 2, 1:09 am, Lloyd Parsons <lloydpars...@mac.com > wrote:

> And to the temp control. Well really isn't the PID or Pstat just
> changing the main boiler temp/pressure and not the HX temp, or at least
> not HX temp on a 1:1 basis unless you assume 100% efficiency.

My *EXTREMELY* limited understanding of how a PID can help in an HX
machine comes from posts from Dave, so discount or kill totally if so
inclined. But even he, who sells and promotes them, doesn't claim they
work to control the temp coming through the exchanger. He claims
they're useful to people who MOSTLY use the HX machine as a single
boiler for straight shots of espresso and only occasionally use it for
a bunch of milk drinks (where, frankly, the absolute quality of the
shot just isn't that critical). This makes a certain amount of sense to
a newbie like me who doesn't understand HX much to begin with. I think
the idea being that you use the main boiler for well controlled shots
using the PID and only use the exchanger when you're doing milk drinks.

Is this not a reasonable application? I'm asking - not claiming to
know. I believe Dave still questions/criticsizes PIDs in HX machines
when used in HX mode.

-Ray



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 09:26:29
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167737961.722828.132660@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >,
"ramboorider@gmail.com" <ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Jan 2, 1:09 am, Lloyd Parsons <lloydpars...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > And to the temp control. Well really isn't the PID or Pstat just
> > changing the main boiler temp/pressure and not the HX temp, or at least
> > not HX temp on a 1:1 basis unless you assume 100% efficiency.
>
> My *EXTREMELY* limited understanding of how a PID can help in an HX
> machine comes from posts from Dave, so discount or kill totally if so
> inclined. But even he, who sells and promotes them, doesn't claim they
> work to control the temp coming through the exchanger. He claims
> they're useful to people who MOSTLY use the HX machine as a single
> boiler for straight shots of espresso and only occasionally use it for
> a bunch of milk drinks (where, frankly, the absolute quality of the
> shot just isn't that critical). This makes a certain amount of sense to
> a newbie like me who doesn't understand HX much to begin with. I think
> the idea being that you use the main boiler for well controlled shots
> using the PID and only use the exchanger when you're doing milk drinks.
>
> Is this not a reasonable application? I'm asking - not claiming to
> know. I believe Dave still questions/criticsizes PIDs in HX machines
> when used in HX mode.
>
> -Ray

That sounds like a reasonable application. Personally I don't see the
value of a PID vs Pstat for that, or at least not on the Alex because of
the ease of access to its Pstat. It would be convenient though.

Assuming all this is correct, then he is doing with the PID mod what I
now do with my Pstat. Lower the pressure/temp to shorten the flush. So
I guess the question is, is it worth $125+ to do that? Only a potential
user could answer that for themselves.


    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:27:30
From: Danny
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
ramboorider@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 2, 1:09 am, Lloyd Parsons <lloydpars...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And to the temp control. Well really isn't the PID or Pstat just
>>changing the main boiler temp/pressure and not the HX temp, or at least
>>not HX temp on a 1:1 basis unless you assume 100% efficiency.
>
>
> My *EXTREMELY* limited understanding of how a PID can help in an HX
> machine comes from posts from Dave, so discount or kill totally if so
> inclined. But even he, who sells and promotes them, doesn't claim they
> work to control the temp coming through the exchanger. He claims
> they're useful to people who MOSTLY use the HX machine as a single
> boiler for straight shots of espresso and only occasionally use it for
> a bunch of milk drinks (where, frankly, the absolute quality of the
> shot just isn't that critical). This makes a certain amount of sense to
> a newbie like me who doesn't understand HX much to begin with. I think
> the idea being that you use the main boiler for well controlled shots
> using the PID and only use the exchanger when you're doing milk drinks.
>
> Is this not a reasonable application? I'm asking - not claiming to
> know. I believe Dave still questions/criticsizes PIDs in HX machines
> when used in HX mode.
>
> -Ray
>

You appear to have your understanding reversed. Hx machines have a
boiler full of water for steaming and hot water spout duties (if
fitted). The HX is a pipe that runs through this heated boiler, and
contains the incoming cold water that is used for the shots. This
water is heated by exchange - the hot boiler water (usually kept at
steaming temp) heats the water in the pipe so it's the correct temp
for espresso shots. If shots aren't pulled regularly, the water in
the HX approaches that of the steam boiler and needs flushing to get
it down to espresso temp. The only way to avoid using the HX is to
just steam and not produce espresso shots at all.

Dave used to criticise all HX machines full stop. He now apparently
thinks they are OK and would like to extend his PID fitting outfit to
include this previously disliked technology that he seemed to forget
is used in virtually all commercial espresso machines, or at least the
lower end machines that don't ustilise twin boiler setups, like LM
etc., or single boiler machines that have (active?) grouphead cooling.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



   
Date: 02 Jan 2007 02:40:20
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Lloyd I'd be happy to take this up with you offline.

or call.

d



    
Date: 02 Jan 2007 09:28:01
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167734420.130594.190290@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> Lloyd I'd be happy to take this up with you offline.
>
> or call.
>
> d

Thanks for the offer Dave. But this is a discussion, at least as to how
and why PID an HX, that should be discussed here. As more people look
at the HX/E61 combos, this is possibly important information.


   
Date: 01 Jan 2007 19:00:29
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
To convince, I rely on the statements and endorsements of my customers
-- users of a wide variety of HX -- old and new.

dave



    
Date: 01 Jan 2007 21:35:02
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167706829.813116.194440@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> To convince, I rely on the statements and endorsements of my customers
> -- users of a wide variety of HX -- old and new.
>
> dave

It would be nice if you would quote at least a bit of what you are
responding to.

Where are these 'statements and endorsements' of HX/PID users located?
Note that Ebay 'feedback' really isn't a good source. It is too short
and almost always the positive ones for a golf club read just like the
ones for a computer or any other thing. Note that I don't doubt that
you've got them, I'd just like to read some AND be able to tell what
benefit I derive should I decide to do it.

I already know what you think of the idea, or you wouldn't be doing the
installs. But for the life of me, I cannot think of anything that a PID
on a HX machine accomplishes.

Right now I can do a 15 second flush, load the PF and pour a double at
180F in the cup. And I can do that over and over without a PID. So
exactly what does the PID do for me?


     
Date: 02 Jan 2007 05:07:57
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Howdy Lloyd!
There really are advantages to having a PID on a HX machine. For one,
eliminating the pstat does make it a quieter machine (My wife's favorite
reading chair is about 15 feet from the coffee machines). For another, a PID
makes switching temps more precise (I use a different temp for an Ethiopian
coffee than I would for a Guatemalan). Generally the pstat is 19th century
technology; the kind of thing that keeps the Italians the butt of jokes in
Europe.

Robert (I piss on self-promoters like davey boy!) Harmon


"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-446671.21350201012007@individual.net...
> In article <1167706829.813116.194440@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To convince, I rely on the statements and endorsements of my customers
>> -- users of a wide variety of HX -- old and new.
>>
>> dave
>
> It would be nice if you would quote at least a bit of what you are
> responding to.
>
> Where are these 'statements and endorsements' of HX/PID users located?
> Note that Ebay 'feedback' really isn't a good source. It is too short
> and almost always the positive ones for a golf club read just like the
> ones for a computer or any other thing. Note that I don't doubt that
> you've got them, I'd just like to read some AND be able to tell what
> benefit I derive should I decide to do it.
>
> I already know what you think of the idea, or you wouldn't be doing the
> installs. But for the life of me, I cannot think of anything that a PID
> on a HX machine accomplishes.
>
> Right now I can do a 15 second flush, load the PF and pour a double at
> 180F in the cup. And I can do that over and over without a PID. So
> exactly what does the PID do for me?




      
Date: 02 Jan 2007 00:09:21
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <NMlmh.6486$w91.5006@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

> Howdy Lloyd!
> There really are advantages to having a PID on a HX machine. For one,
> eliminating the pstat does make it a quieter machine (My wife's favorite
> reading chair is about 15 feet from the coffee machines). For another, a PID
> makes switching temps more precise (I use a different temp for an Ethiopian
> coffee than I would for a Guatemalan). Generally the pstat is 19th century
> technology; the kind of thing that keeps the Italians the butt of jokes in
> Europe.
>
> Robert (I piss on self-promoters like davey boy!) Harmon

I hadn't thought about the noise, but to be truthful, the gentle click
as it switches doesn't bother me. But with the Alex, Chris said that
the click is the relay, which I'm assuming means a relay to kick the
heater on and off, and not the Pstat. Assuming that is true, then the
noise would still be there, would it not?

And to the temp control. Well really isn't the PID or Pstat just
changing the main boiler temp/pressure and not the HX temp, or at least
not HX temp on a 1:1 basis unless you assume 100% efficiency. The flush
is still going to control that just as it does when I change the Pstat
settings. Alex has a very tight deadband from my observations and
others comments.

BTW, I reset my Pstat down to .9 bar, really reduces the flush routine
to about 15 seconds total down to brew temp. Steaming is still very
strong although I suspect it wouldn't be as long lasting as a higher
pressure would give.


       
Date: 17 Jan 2007 23:55:37
From: Karl Denninger
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00

In article <lloydparsons-2CCF64.00092102012007@individual.net >,
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>
>
>In article <NMlmh.6486$w91.5006@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Howdy Lloyd!
>> There really are advantages to having a PID on a HX machine. For one,
>> eliminating the pstat does make it a quieter machine (My wife's favorite
>> reading chair is about 15 feet from the coffee machines). For another, a PID
>> makes switching temps more precise (I use a different temp for an Ethiopian
>> coffee than I would for a Guatemalan). Generally the pstat is 19th century
>> technology; the kind of thing that keeps the Italians the butt of jokes in
>> Europe.
>>
>> Robert (I piss on self-promoters like davey boy!) Harmon
>
>I hadn't thought about the noise, but to be truthful, the gentle click
>as it switches doesn't bother me. But with the Alex, Chris said that
>the click is the relay, which I'm assuming means a relay to kick the
>heater on and off, and not the Pstat. Assuming that is true, then the
>noise would still be there, would it not?
>
>And to the temp control. Well really isn't the PID or Pstat just
>changing the main boiler temp/pressure and not the HX temp, or at least
>not HX temp on a 1:1 basis unless you assume 100% efficiency. The flush
>is still going to control that just as it does when I change the Pstat
>settings. Alex has a very tight deadband from my observations and
>others comments.
>
>BTW, I reset my Pstat down to .9 bar, really reduces the flush routine
>to about 15 seconds total down to brew temp. Steaming is still very
>strong although I suspect it wouldn't be as long lasting as a higher
>pressure would give.

A pressurestat with a relatively wide deadband (e.g. 0.1 bar) is going to
produce EXTREMELY precise temperatures once you learn to do your flush
routine.

Why? Because that's a relatively LARGE pressure change in absolute terms
(e.g. 10%) but in terms of TEMPERATURE change its small. And that's what
matters, right?

If there's a mechanical relay on the pressurestat (to keep the Pstat from
burning up its contacts with heater current directly) then put a SSR in
place of the mechanical relay. There goes (most of) the noise.

The problem with a PID on a HX is that when steaming you really do want "all
on, right now" once the pressure drops. Since a PID measures TEMPERATURE,
and that is going to lag pressure materially (due to how steam flashes from
supersaturated water under pressure) you will see a lag in response compared
to a regular presurestat machine when you steam.

--
--
Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do!
http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING!
http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind


   
Date: 01 Jan 2007 17:38:37
From: daveb
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Lloyd, with all respect, I'd like to get you in touch with some of my
customers who are DELIGHTED with the 'pid' I put on their units, some
of whom now have two machines given the "treatment"

Mr. fox -- not a supporter of mine -- also differs with you on the use
of electronics on HX

HNY.

Dave
www.hitechespresso.com



    
Date: 01 Jan 2007 19:52:39
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
In article <1167701917.737068.154650@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> Lloyd, with all respect, I'd like to get you in touch with some of my
> customers who are DELIGHTED with the 'pid' I put on their units, some
> of whom now have two machines given the "treatment"
>
> Mr. fox -- not a supporter of mine -- also differs with you on the use
> of electronics on HX
>
> HNY.
>
> Dave
> www.hitechespresso.com

There is a good discussion on HB about this, there is certainly
disagreement on the value of HX and PID combos.

When I read your write up on your website about it, I was not convinced
of the value. Since then, my personal experience and the information
from HB led me to believe that it isn't of value except as a new toy on
a big hunk of stainless.


   
Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:27:35
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
Rokey Jah wrote an lengthy encomium for dapper dave.

Leading me to wonder if anyone has compared the origins of their
respective posts.



 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 15:14:10
From: notbob
Subject: Re: New 'pid' kit avail -- $125.00
On 2006-12-30, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
> Dual display controller
> 120/240 volt,
> 1/32 DIN,
> WITH THERMOCOUPLE
> AND SSR,
> ALL BRAND NEW

Are you going to provide any information about the components, like
brand name, specs, etc, or am I supposed to guess?

nb


 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 12:13:50
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: New 'pid' parts avail -- $125.00 + $100 for missing parts
Only fools like Dave would consider three pieces a completed puzzle.

Go to http://www.pidkits.com/ & buy a real kit from Jim with "ALL"
parts needed to do the PID conversion.

Robert (I piss on self-promoting asses like davey boy.) Harmon


daveb wrote:
> Dual display controller
> 120/240 volt,
> 1/32 DIN,
> WITH THERMOCOUPLE
> AND SSR,
> ALL BRAND NEW
>
> $125 incl. shipping -- worldwide
>
>
>
> Dave b
> www.hitechespresso.com
> dave713 on the eBay
> tech support is always free.
> 877 286 2833 toll free in USA



  
Date: 31 Dec 2006 08:29:38
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New 'pid' parts avail -- $125.00 + $100 for missing parts
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote:

>Only fools like Dave would consider three pieces a completed puzzle.
>
>Go to http://www.pidkits.com/ & buy a real kit from Jim with "ALL"
>parts needed to do the PID conversion.
>
>Robert (I piss on self-promoting asses like davey boy.) Harmon
>
>

I will add that the kits offered at www.pidkits.com are well worth the
money. The kits are professionally put together with EVERY wire and
hardware part needed, and the instructions reflect a lot of time and
effort and go through the installation process step by step. The wires
have all the end connectors installed and the ends are even stripped
and ready to connect to the PID. Even the lengths of the wires are
sufficient so that no soldering has to be done. If you can distinguish
colors, have command of English, and posses the ability to use simple
hand tools, you will find that these kits are very easy to install.
IMO, best of all, there is no need to ship your machine across the
country to whoknowswhere to be worked on by whoknowswho, and all the
time hoping that the shipper doesn't use the box as a football on the
lunch break. Remember that shipping insurance does not protect you
from shipping damage if the shipper states that the parcel was
improperly packed. Read my full review of these excellent kits on my
website.

There are some folks who can get a PID, SSR, and thermocouple and
toggle the rest together from scrap wire in the garage and a project
box (I did). For those who don't have the time and desire to do that
from scratch, Jim's kits are definitely the way to go.


Randy "PID for you.. PID for me" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com