New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

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Date: 02 Dec 2006 12:30:06
From:
Subject: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

I've read a lot of posts about the need of a good grinder to match the
Silvia. Before continuing, I will just say I'll order the Macap M4
stepless on of these days...

However, having experimented with various pre-grounds, mostly from
local coffe shops (finest grind possible) and the Red Illy for
reference I find that they are all too coarse to satisfy Silvias needs.
I'm getting 15-20 second shots, all with dissapointing little crema.

I can't help but ask why the Silvia needs finer ground coffee than any
other machine I've tried? I have a Francis x1 at the office, giving
better results. Even our neighbors $150 Krups beats it hands down in
the crema department (though the color is a deal lighter, I'll admit)

Therories;
1. I'm getting a lot of grounds in the cup, so my guess is that the
baskets have too little resistance, too wide or many holes for the
perfect cup.
2. The pump delivers more than 9 bars of pressure, making the coffee
extract too fast.

Date: 04 Dec 2006 23:00:38
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Thank you for your reply, Harry!

Date: 04 Dec 2006 14:32:19
From: normstar
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Excuse me, but can I please have this 10 minutes of my life back?!?!?!?
hehe..

n*

Date: 04 Dec 2006 05:33:41
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

pepper wrote:
> I was just surprised at the results when I got it. I did know that I
> had to buy a grinder to get the results I wanted. What I didn't know
> was that the Silvia is useless without one.

Pepper, assuming that you are neither stupid nor willfully provocative,
STFU and listen. No one is being rude to you, as you would know if you
had read posts here for a while. When the rudeness arrives, you'll
know it.

Silvia is no better nor any worse at making decent espresso from
pre-ground coffee than any other machine. IT CANNOT BE DONE.

Perhaps you do not have the taste buds to discern that.

Date: 04 Dec 2006 05:07:36
From: daveb
Subject: a Study in arrogance and pomposity

If there is a gold standard for rudeness and insults on this ng --

please read rg's latest in this thread

so pathetic.

Dave

Date: 04 Dec 2006 17:47:12
From: Steve
Subject: Re: a Study in arrogance and pomposity

On 4 Dec 2006 05:07:36 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>If there is a gold standard for rudeness and insults on this ng --
>
>please read rg's latest in this thread
>
>so pathetic.
>
>Dave

What's pathetic is your constant spamming of the group to shill your
products.
I can't believe someone would chose to do business with the likes of
you.

Date: 04 Dec 2006 01:45:09
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Randy G. wrote:
> With all that you have invested and then to use
> pregound coffee and then asking your questions is tantamount to
> getting a set of recaps for a Ferrari and asking why it wasn't
> handling as good as your friend's Accord.

Even if that was funny, you still won't discuss this. Preground results
on the Silvia compared to other machines.

Obviosly it is more fun negging newcomers than taking their questions
seriously.

Date: 04 Dec 2006 18:01:03
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

pepper wrote:

> Randy G. wrote:
>
>>With all that you have invested and then to use
>>pregound coffee and then asking your questions is tantamount to
>>getting a set of recaps for a Ferrari and asking why it wasn't
>>handling as good as your friend's Accord.
>
>
> Even if that was funny, you still won't discuss this. Preground results
> on the Silvia compared to other machines.
>
> Obviosly it is more fun negging newcomers than taking their questions
> seriously.
>

I've never tried pre-ground coffee in my Silvia (now retired) or Andreja
but I have ground good fresh coffee, let it sit around for an hour then
compared the shot to one made with just ground coffee and you know what?
The shot made with the coffee ground an hour earlier ran faster and
had lousy crema. I didn't take notes on the taste difference but the
shot made with the stale coffee wasn't any good.

When you take your Silvia to a world class espresso bar you will note
that the barista grinds coffee fresh for each shot. Hmm, wonder if
there might be something to that?

R "what's to discuss" TF

Date: 04 Dec 2006 08:28:20
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

>Randy G. wrote:
>> With all that you have invested and then to use
>> pregound coffee and then asking your questions is tantamount to
>> getting a set of recaps for a Ferrari and asking why it wasn't
>> handling as good as your friend's Accord.
>
>Even if that was funny, you still won't discuss this. Preground results
>on the Silvia compared to other machines.
>
>Obviosly it is more fun negging newcomers than taking their questions
>seriously.

I do not know what you expect to get from a Silvia nor do I know what
your personal standards are concerning espresso. I would NEVER
recommend using preground coffee in ANY espresso machine to anyone. So
the specific answer you are looking for is that, IMO, NO espresso
machine of quality is going to make decent espresso with preground
coffee. My definition of decent might be different than yours. All
machines in the price range of Silvia work pretty much the same- they
heat up water in a boiler, and then force it through ground coffee,
tightly packed in a filter basket. Generally speaking, no one machine
is going to do better or worse than any other with pre-ground coffee,
generally speaking. They will all make low-quality espresso in
comparison to the machine's capabilities.

Before investing in a Silvia with the intention of using preground, I
would suggest finding the best coffee shop in the area where they make
decent espresso and try some there. Compare it to the coffee your
friend makes using preground, particularly when the batch of preground
is near the end of the bag.

To me, you are asking if a Silvia can make drinkable espresso from
stale coffee. No. Can the Gaggia? No. Can a Saeco? No.. They would all
make an equally stale tasting coffee beverage.

I think you are going about this backwards. I would suggest that you
first get a good grinder. With that, purchase a coffee making device
to get you by until you can afford the machine you want. I highly
suggest the Aeropress because it makes a delicious, rich up of coffee
for a very modest investment. Of course, that assumes that you have a
source of fresh coffee.

Coffee + water = coffee beverage. Start with bad coffee you get a bad
beverage. Why spend $500 to achieve that? If you are serious about
making good coffee then listen to the advice being given here- and not
just by me.

So, to add another answer to this thread closer to what you are
asking, yes, the Silvia is just as capable of making bad coffee from
preground or stale coffee as your friend's Gaggia.

Randy "setting low standards avoids disappointment" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 04 Dec 2006 07:29:07
From: Chris Staley
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

On 4 Dec 2006 01:45:09 -0800, "pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

>Randy G. wrote:
>> With all that you have invested and then to use
>> pregound coffee and then asking your questions is tantamount to
>> getting a set of recaps for a Ferrari and asking why it wasn't
>> handling as good as your friend's Accord.
>
>Even if that was funny, you still won't discuss this. Preground results
>on the Silvia compared to other machines.
>
>Obviosly it is more fun negging newcomers than taking their questions
>seriously.

Here's the problem Pepper: Randy's humorous comparisons are pretty
much an accurate analysis of the issue. Your Silvia is a great, very
capable single boiler machine, with a commercial style grouphead and
portafilter. It's also has a reputation for being a finicky machine,
however this reputation came about because people weren't necessarily
using a high quality grinder, along with freshly roasted beans.
Basically it is a demanding machine, and in order to get the best out
of it, you have to put the best into it. This is going to require the
aforementioned grinder. You mentioned that it seemed that your
friends Gaggia performed better with pre-ground. But did you verify
this by trying it several times on different days? It's possible that
the pre-ground you were using that day on the gaggia may have been
ground to just the right consistancy, and was still fresh enough, that
it was able to perfom reasonably. As for the machines with the
pressurized portafilters, you really can't make a comparison. The
pressurized portafilter was developed specifically to use pre-ground
stale coffee, and to make a fascimile of crema. If you were to use an
un-pressurized portafilter in the X1, you would likely have a similar
result to what you are currently getting with Silvia.

Here's another analogy: Say you have two sets of headphones. The
first is a set of Senheiser HD650's and the second is a set of Koss
KSC-75's. The Sens cost around $500 and the Koss's are around $20.
However, if you just simply plug both of them into a CD player or an
Ipod, you would likely swear that the Koss KSC-75's sound better.
This is because the Koss headphones don't really need a high quality
amplifier in order to sound pretty darn good (frankly they are a great
deal, and awesome every day headphones). However, the Sens are WORLDS
better, it's just that you need the right amplifier to drive them
properly. Otherwise they will sound hollow and anemic. The lesson is
that inferior headphones (FF X1) can appear to be better than higher
quality headphones (Silvia) when you are using the same inferior
source (pre-ground coffee) for both. But when you add an amplifier (a
quality burr grinder) both improve, but the higher quality equipment
will now consistantly outperform the lower quality gear.

I hope this helps somewhat.

Chris

Date: 04 Dec 2006 06:40:54
From:
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Consider: You go to your local coffee shop (Peet's Starbucks TJ's
whatever) to pick up your preground espresso. What do you grind it
at? Probably tell them "espresso grind" right? Or 4 or 5 on their 7 or
8 step grinder. Compare that to Sr. Rocky who has, what? 40ish grind
steps which many find inadequately few for dialing up a decent
espresso.

Not to mention the freshness issue, which I infer you don't taste.

If that's good enough for you, why bother with Sylvia? Save yourself a
few hundred bucks and buy a stove top moka pot and a hand held milk
frother.

_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Date: 04 Dec 2006 10:29:46
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Preground coffee on a Silvia can be adequate (and I grind for about 50
Silvias) but never exceptional. BUT .. you have to buy your preground from
(a) a roaster who has superb, fresh (not more than 2 days old) coffees (b)
who also has correct packaging and equipment and (c) who sells Silvias, and
therefore knows how to grind for them, and it varies from bean to bean.
There might be 20 of us worldwide, but probably less. Otherwise, superket
preground will give you vile dreck, and pressurized portafilters will give
you vile dreck with yellow foam on top. See
http://www.coffeeco.com.au/newsletter/november2005.html .

--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au

Date: 03 Dec 2006 14:39:49
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

pepper wrote:
> Read the first part of my post, shall.
> I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
> yours and the 3000 others you refer to.

There's a reason why there's 3,000 or more of them.

Prediction: If you do buy that Macap you mentioned, or a Rocky, or a
Mazzer Mini, or even a Maestro or Virtuoso, you'll be 3,001 who comes
in saying "yep, what a fool I was, ITGS.... "

canned illy is meant for moka pots.

k
(it's the grinder, stupid)

Date: 03 Dec 2006 18:04:05
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1165183549.106910.303280@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
>
> pepper wrote:
>> Read the first part of my post, shall.
>> I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread
>> like
>> yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
>
> There's a reason why there's 3,000 or more of them.
>
> Prediction: If you do buy that Macap you mentioned, or a Rocky, or a
> Mazzer Mini, or even a Maestro or Virtuoso, you'll be 3,001 who comes
> in saying "yep, what a fool I was, ITGS.... "
>
> canned illy is meant for moka pots.
>
>
> k
> (it's the grinder, stupid)
>

Hey k, as you know I'm sure., I've posted your grinder versus machine
"Mantra" quite a few times to the noobs on the CG forums that come in
asking this same thing over & over ad neaseum.. {;-)
Cheers!
Craig.

Date: 03 Dec 2006 13:23:42
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

> If you think that your friends Gaggia is
> producing good espresso from preground I will offer that you have
> never tasted good espresso.

I'm saying it looks like it does a better job with preground than the
Silvia, yes.
I've seen yor website. I'm impressed.
But before you continue being rude, I must question your ability to
judge preground results as you obviously never touch the stuff. Have
you really compared this yourself?

Date: 04 Dec 2006 17:44:02
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

My Gaggia Coffee would not produce decent crema with preground coffee. The
crema was pale [like cream] instead of a deep mahogany, and barely covered
the pour. When I began roasting and grinding with a Krups Il Barista, the
immediate difference was dark mahogany crema about 1/4" thick in the cup.
This convinced me to buy a Gaggia MDF which gave me even greater control
over the grind and a faster grind. Now, with a Silvia, I am getting by with
the MDF -- usually. But today, for example, I ground beans roasted three
days ago at "6". Too fast a pour at about 18 seconds. A regrind at "5" was
too slow. A white center in the crema beginning as I finished the pour at
about 35 seconds. I really needed a "5.5" setting, not available on the
MDF.

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote in message
news:1165181022.510752.306720@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> If you think that your friends Gaggia is
>> producing good espresso from preground I will offer that you have
>> never tasted good espresso.
>
> I'm saying it looks like it does a better job with preground than the
> Silvia, yes.
> I've seen yor website. I'm impressed.
> But before you continue being rude, I must question your ability to
> judge preground results as you obviously never touch the stuff. Have
> you really compared this yourself?
>

Date: 03 Dec 2006 13:55:27
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

>> If you think that your friends Gaggia is
>> producing good espresso from preground I will offer that you have
>> never tasted good espresso.
>
>I'm saying it looks like it does a better job with preground than the
>Silvia, yes.
>I've seen yor website. I'm impressed.
>But before you continue being rude, I must question your ability to
>judge preground results as you obviously never touch the stuff. Have
>you really compared this yourself?

My replies, while being terse, were not all that rude. I have been in
moods here before and been rude, and I have witnesses! ;-)

My initial investment in coffee equipment was in the area of about $50
and that was back at the end of 2000. Since then I have spent many
hundreds more. With all that you have invested and then to use
pregound coffee and then asking your questions is tantamount to
getting a set of recaps for a Ferrari and asking why it wasn't
handling as good as your friend's Accord.

There are times when I have to adjust Rocky one click to get better
pulls- that one click amounts to something less then about 1/1000" in
particle size. That level of adjustment can charge the pull time by
around four seconds. And even then, there are people who purchase
stepless grinders Basque that level of adjustment is no fine enough!

If you take that on its own merit, then it MIGHT be possible and get
lucky enough to get a grind that matches the Silvia's needs for that
day. But that discounts the fact that once it has been ground, the
coffee will be too stale for good espresso in less than one hour..
Some would argue less than ten minutes. One day later and that
preground coffee, regardless how you store it, is junk. You have
wasted your money because it is now too stale for espresso. One of the
signs that the coffee is stale is that it produces poor crema. The
other is that it tastes bad- often having a distinctive burnt sort of
taste, but not a good burnt taste.

If any machine can produce good crema and quality espresso from
preground coffee I would have you inspect it and I think you will find
that it possess some sort of crema enhancing device in the bottom of
the portafilter. If not, then look above the machine as there might be
a bright star, and outside three wise men will be on the way in for a
cup.

On another level, an exception to this might be some of the higher
(highest?) quality pods which are packed and individually sealed.
These are, by definition, preground, but of a different nature than of
which we speak.

Randy " " G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:30:42
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

In article <1165181022.510752.306720@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

> > If you think that your friends Gaggia is
> > producing good espresso from preground I will offer that you have
> > never tasted good espresso.
>
> I'm saying it looks like it does a better job with preground than the
> Silvia, yes.
> I've seen yor website. I'm impressed.
> But before you continue being rude, I must question your ability to
> judge preground results as you obviously never touch the stuff. Have
> you really compared this yourself?

He may not have, but I have. It is literally a night and day
difference. That includes flavor and crema. But you still want freshly
roasted beans for excellent results.

Sometimes buying in the store, it isn't always apparant how long since
roast.

Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:36:06
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

I think ANY machine with a commercial type brew group and portafilter
will be equally useless without a grinder. With a pressurized
portafilter (or I guess a 'crema enhancer' - does this do the same
thing?) the grind doesn't matter so much, although fresh coffee is
STILL gonna be way better than stale coffee. And I think (?) there are
low end Gaggias with pressurized portafilters. But on any of the
Gaggias from about $200 up you're dealing with a commercial style
portafilter where the grind, tamp, coffee, etc really determines the
result. So for those, you pretty much need a grinder. I guess the new
Silvia's have some sort of pod capability, but I'd avoid it like the
plague.

-Ray

On Dec 3, 3:15 pm, "pepper" <pep...@music.no > wrote:
> 1. I want a grinder.
> 2. I'm gonna buy one this week
> 3. It will be a Macap M4
> 4. It's really cheap here in Europe which is good
> 5. I think I'll go with the stepless version
> 6. I'll post some pics when it arrives
>
> That aside;
> Before you so kindly enlightened me on crema-enhancing an the like, I
> was just wondering why the Silvia seems preground challenged compared
> to other machines. Is this not a fair question to ask? You mention
> Gaggia. My friend has a Gaggia, producing fake crema from preground I
> suppose.
>
> I was just surprised at the results when I got it. I did know that I
> had to buy a grinder to get the results I wanted. What I didn't know
> was that the Silvia is useless without noe.
>
> ------------------------

Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:23:44
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

1. I want a grinder.
2. I'm gonna buy one this week
3. It will be a Macap M4
4. It's really cheap here in Europe which is good
5. I think I'll go with the stepless version
6. I'll post some pics when it arrives

That aside;
Before you so kindly enlightened me on crema-enhancing an the like, I
was just wondering why the Silvia seems preground challenged compared
to other machines. Is this not a fair question to ask? You mention
Gaggia. My friend has a Gaggia, producing fake crema from preground I
suppose.

I was just surprised at the results when I got it. I did know that I
had to buy a grinder to get the results I wanted. What I didn't know
was that the Silvia is useless without one.

Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:35:06
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote in message
news:1165177424.014703.297710@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> 1. I want a grinder.
> 2. I'm gonna buy one this week
> 3. It will be a Macap M4
> 4. It's really cheap here in Europe which is good
> 5. I think I'll go with the stepless version
> 6. I'll post some pics when it arrives
>
> That aside;
> Before you so kindly enlightened me on crema-enhancing an the like, I
> was just wondering why the Silvia seems preground challenged compared
> to other machines. Is this not a fair question to ask? You mention
> Gaggia. My friend has a Gaggia, producing fake crema from preground I
> suppose.
>
> I was just surprised at the results when I got it. I did know that I
> had to buy a grinder to get the results I wanted. What I didn't know
> was that the Silvia is useless without one.
>

Look at it this way, a vehicle is pretty USELESS without it's set of
rubber to ride on, right??
Craig.

Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:15:23
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:44:02
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

>... I
>was just wondering why the Silvia seems preground challenged compared
>to other machines.
>
IT ISN'T!!!!!!

>Is this not a fair question to ask? You mention
>Gaggia. My friend has a Gaggia, producing fake crema from preground I
>suppose.
>
Much like, "Do you beat you wife just on the weekends? Answer yes or
no," your original question was misleading and based on inaccurate
information on your part. If you think that your friends Gaggia is
producing good espresso from preground I will offer that you have
never tasted good espresso.

>I was just surprised at the results when I got it. I did know that I
>had to buy a grinder to get the results I wanted.
:-/

> What I didn't know
>was that the Silvia is useless without one.
>
>:-(

A search in the Google alt.coffee archives for, "do I need a grinder?"
results in 4000 hits.....

There is no problem being ignorant, but when you choose not to accept
the answers you are going to receive some grief here. A number of folk
tried to give you a more detailed explanation to show that your
original question was problematic and why, but your argumentative
style based on your POV that you weren't receiving the information you
desired to receive caused the terse responses.

My brother went to a number of therapists until he found one that gave
him the answer he was looking for.. yes, after all, all his problems
ended up being his mother's fault. If you keep asking the questions in
various forms and forums, eventually you will get the answer you
desire.

And once again, no, Silvia is NOT more sensitive or picky concerning
using preground than other quality machines, and yes, to get good
crema and espresso you need a grinder and a source of fresh coffee
beans, and no, you cannot get good espresso from preground coffee with
Silvia nor with any quality espresso machine.

If you have read this far and are no pissed of yet, go to my website
and check the link for the video of a pour from my Silvia and watch
it. If your espresso does not look like that, then some adjustment has
to be made.

Randy "NOW do you get it?" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 04 Dec 2006 07:07:10
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 12:44:02 -0800, Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com >
wrote:

>"pepper" <pepper@music.no> wrote:
>
>>... I
>>was just wondering why the Silvia seems preground challenged compared
>>to other machines.
>>
>IT ISN'T!!!!!!
>
>>Is this not a fair question to ask? You mention
>>Gaggia. My friend has a Gaggia, producing fake crema from preground I
>>suppose.
>>
>Much like, "Do you beat you wife just on the weekends? Answer yes or
>no," your original question was misleading and based on inaccurate
>information on your part. If you think that your friends Gaggia is
>producing good espresso from preground I will offer that you have
>never tasted good espresso.
>
>>I was just surprised at the results when I got it. I did know that I
>>had to buy a grinder to get the results I wanted.
>:-/
>
>> What I didn't know
>>was that the Silvia is useless without one.
>>
> >:-(
>
>A search in the Google alt.coffee archives for, "do I need a grinder?"
>results in 4000 hits.....

That's pretty funny. I pulled "3,000" out of the air. I thought the
number was so ridiculously high it would be obvious I was using
hyperbole to make a point.

shall

Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:41:38
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Read the first part of my post, shall.
I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
yours and the 3000 others you refer to.

Maybe my question should've been;
Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
Rancilio Silvia?

If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
which modifications.

Date: 03 Dec 2006 15:08:02
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

pepper wrote:

> Read the first part of my post, shall.
> I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
> yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
>
> Maybe my question should've been;
> Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
> Rancilio Silvia?
>
> If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
> which modifications.
>

Yes, its is possible! Take your Silvia and your pr-ground coffee to a
good cafe like Gimme in Brooklyn, 9th St. Coffee in E. 9th St. in NYC,
or perhaps Cafe Victrola in Seattle. Order a shot of espresso or your
preferred drink. and make believe it came from your Silvia and
pre-ground coffee.

R "if your gonna delude yourself then you should at least delude
yourself in style" TF

Date: 03 Dec 2006 14:10:22
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

In article <4tgp5pF13kgdtU1@mid.individual.net >,
Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote:

> pepper wrote:
>
> > Read the first part of my post, shall.
> > I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
> > yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
> >
> > Maybe my question should've been;
> > Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
> > Rancilio Silvia?
> >
> > If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
> > which modifications.
> >
>
> Yes, its is possible! Take your Silvia and your pr-ground coffee to a
> good cafe like Gimme in Brooklyn, 9th St. Coffee in E. 9th St. in NYC,
> or perhaps Cafe Victrola in Seattle. Order a shot of espresso or your
> preferred drink. and make believe it came from your Silvia and
> pre-ground coffee.
>
> R "if your gonna delude yourself then you should at least delude
> yourself in style" TF

I like that! ;-)

Date: 03 Dec 2006 20:03:37
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote in message
news:1165138898.723266.122760@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> Read the first part of my post, shall.
> I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
> yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
>
> Maybe my question should've been;
> Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
> Rancilio Silvia?
>
> If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
> which modifications.
>
If you are enjoying the preground coffee, that you are presently using , I
am not sure why you would be worrying the lack of crema ?
There was a reason why the 3000 + of us
invested in quality grinders and why would one want to modify a machine to
produce an inferior product ?

Regards, BMC

Date: 03 Dec 2006 19:29:31
From: Danny
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

pepper wrote:
> Read the first part of my post, shall.
> I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
> yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
>
> Maybe my question should've been;
> Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
> Rancilio Silvia?
>
> If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
> which modifications.
>

You should have listened to shall and the other 3000 posters, but,
to answer your specific question, No.

I have produced some vague espresso-like beverage from a Gaggia using
Lavazza pregound, but even Lavazza whole bean was a milestone
better...when ground correctly for espresso, just prior to use.

Instead of arguing against the advice, why don't you share why it is
that you don't want a grinder?

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 03 Dec 2006 09:15:00
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

>Read the first part of my post, shall.
>I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
>yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
>
>Maybe my question should've been;
>Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
>Rancilio Silvia?
>
>If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
>which modifications.

Virtually by definition, preground coffee is stale.. unless you JUST
preground it seconds ago. Besides tasting bad, stale coffee produces
far less crema than fresh. It is one of the ways that you can see that
coffee is stale before drinking it and then spitting it out into the
sink, hopefully. For me, the taste of stale coffee makes the floor as
good of a target as the sink.

A crema-enhancing portafilter is one way to get "crema" out of Silvia,
but you notice that there is not one available. There is a good reason
for that. Most who purchase a Silvia are serious about espresso and
wouldn't dream of purposely using stale coffee in it and then
artificially enhancing it to make the espresso appear fresh. It's sort
of like: if you are really desperate, living in the wilds of the
Canadian Northlands for the last year or two, an inflatable female
pleasure device may suffice, but if the genuine article is available
the air pump stays in the closet.

Even if you live next door to a coffee shop that will pregrind a pound
at a time for you, and even if they somehow get the grind right for
today, the grind may not be right for tomorrow, and by the third day
it won't matter because the coffee was stale on day two from being
ground, exposed to the air, and allowed to sit around before use.

So no, it's not possible to get quality crema with preground coffee.

Good espresso comes from freshly-roasted coffee, ground for use right
then and there. Anything else makes the purchase of a Silvia a waste
of money. As we have stated here some 300 times by your count, the
grinder is more important than the machine, and the best machine
available will make low-quality espresso if fed low quality coffee
that is either ground in a cheap grinder or is stale.

Get a grinder... ahh. make that 3001.

Randy "another decayed get-a-grinder post" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 03 Dec 2006 09:11:49
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

In article <1165138898.723266.122760@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com >,
"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

> Read the first part of my post, shall.
> I did'nt want this to end up as another "go buy a grinder" thread like
> yours and the 3000 others you refer to.
>
> Maybe my question should've been;
> Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
> Rancilio Silvia?
>
> If someone thinks this is possible, please let me know how and with
> which modifications.

In my experience with my Silvia, it is not possible. Good crema, and
good espresso for that matter, is a function of brew pressure and flow.
Those are a direct result of tamp, grind and freshness.

The only way you could possibly get good crema from pre-ground would be
to buy it freshly roasted, ground to exactly the size and consistency
that your Silvia needs, and get it in the Silvia within minutes of
grinding.

We don't say you need a good grinder just because. We say it because it
is just a fact of life. And that holds true of any espresso machine
that doesn't used pressurized or crema enhancing portafilter.

Date: 03 Dec 2006 10:33:58
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

>Is it possible to deliver decent crema with pre-ground coffee on the
>Rancilio Silvia?

Sure. Buy from me. I know precisely the grind necessary for the Silvia. Of
course, the day after you open the bag, it mightn't work any more, but
that's YOUR fault ... you live somewhere the temperature and humidity is
different from my location. Oh, by the way, your preground coffee won't
taste as good from day 2 onwards, because it will be starting to get a bit
stale after that, but what the hell, it was convenient.

--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au

Date: 02 Dec 2006 22:14:24
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

On 2 Dec 2006 12:30:06 -0800, pepper@music.no wrote:

>I've read a lot of posts about the need of a good grinder to match the
>Silvia. Before continuing, I will just say I'll order the Macap M4
>stepless on of these days...
>
>However, having experimented with various pre-grounds, mostly from
>local coffe shops (finest grind possible) and the Red Illy for
>reference I find that they are all too coarse to satisfy Silvias needs.
>I'm getting 15-20 second shots, all with dissapointing little crema.
>
>I can't help but ask why the Silvia needs finer ground coffee than any
>other machine I've tried? I have a Francis x1 at the office, giving
>better results. Even our neighbors $150 Krups beats it hands down in
>the crema department (though the color is a deal lighter, I'll admit)
>
>Therories;
>1. I'm getting a lot of grounds in the cup, so my guess is that the
>baskets have too little resistance, too wide or many holes for the
>perfect cup.
>2. The pump delivers more than 9 bars of pressure, making the coffee
>extract too fast.

Arrgggh. What you are basically saying is, "I'm going to ignore the
3,000 posts and printed articles that tell me I need a (good) grinder
for good espresso, and invent my own reasons why I'm making a lousy
brew."

Your pre-grinds may or may not be "too coarse." It makes no
difference. By the time they fill your portafilter they are stale and
will not provide enough resistance to the water. Plus they will have
lost their best tastes and aromas.

The "crema" that is forced out of a Francis Francis pressurized
portafilter bears the same resemblance to real crema that Reddi-Whip
does to hand-whipped cream: it looks like crema, but doesn't taste or
feel like it. You cannot overcome the laws of physics and chemistry in
your kitchen.

shall

Date: 02 Dec 2006 21:42:24
From: Danny
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

pepper@music.no wrote:
> I've read a lot of posts about the need of a good grinder to match the
> Silvia. Before continuing, I will just say I'll order the Macap M4
> stepless on of these days...
>
> However, having experimented with various pre-grounds, mostly from
> local coffe shops (finest grind possible) and the Red Illy for
> reference I find that they are all too coarse to satisfy Silvias needs.
> I'm getting 15-20 second shots, all with dissapointing little crema.
>
> I can't help but ask why the Silvia needs finer ground coffee than any
> other machine I've tried? I have a Francis x1 at the office, giving
> better results. Even our neighbors $150 Krups beats it hands down in
> the crema department (though the color is a deal lighter, I'll admit)
>
> Therories;
> 1. I'm getting a lot of grounds in the cup, so my guess is that the
> baskets have too little resistance, too wide or many holes for the
> perfect cup.
> 2. The pump delivers more than 9 bars of pressure, making the coffee
> extract too fast.
>

You are sumising the wrong way round. Of the machines you cite,
the silvia is the only decent machine. Decent machines need a diet of
good freshly ground coffee, prepared on a good quality burr grinder.
It's a fact. Any machine that generates true espresso pressure < > 9
bar needs the correct grind (and fresh-ish coffee) to produce a shot
with adequate "real" crema, not the type produced by artificial means.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 02 Dec 2006 13:10:28
From: pepper
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

Thank you for ypur reply :-)
So what you're saying is that ANY machine not using crema-enhancing
filters will deliver the same poor results with pre-ground as the
Silvia?

What exactly is a pressurized filter? The Francis x1 filter look small
(52mm) but otherwise ordinary to me. I'm not talking about the PODs
filter, but the optional one.

Date: 02 Dec 2006 15:19:38
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

In article <1165093828.347404.98950@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com >,
"pepper" <pepper@music.no > wrote:

> Thank you for ypur reply :-)
> So what you're saying is that ANY machine not using crema-enhancing
> filters will deliver the same poor results with pre-ground as the
> Silvia?
>
> What exactly is a pressurized filter? The Francis x1 filter look small
> (52mm) but otherwise ordinary to me. I'm not talking about the PODs
> filter, but the optional one.

I won't go so far as to say ANY, but most. As to how they do it. Well
some do it in the filter basket, some do it in the portafilter (the
handle).

For instance, in the Breville, they have a double-walled filter basket.
Plenty of holes on the inside of the filter basket, but a lot less on
the outside.

Just for info. I'm going to be upgrading very soon and will be
replacing both my grinder and espresso machine. The grinder is a Gaggia
MDF that I have been using with my current Silvia. I will be offering
it at a good price and it is in perfect, but used condition. I've had
it about a year. If you are interested, send me an email.

Lloyd

Date: 02 Dec 2006 14:45:10
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: New version Silvia and pre-ground coffee

In article <1165091405.995415.81370@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com >,
pepper@music.no wrote:

> I've read a lot of posts about the need of a good grinder to match the
> Silvia. Before continuing, I will just say I'll order the Macap M4
> stepless on of these days...
>
> However, having experimented with various pre-grounds, mostly from
> local coffe shops (finest grind possible) and the Red Illy for
> reference I find that they are all too coarse to satisfy Silvias needs.
> I'm getting 15-20 second shots, all with dissapointing little crema.
>
> I can't help but ask why the Silvia needs finer ground coffee than any
> other machine I've tried? I have a Francis x1 at the office, giving
> better results. Even our neighbors $150 Krups beats it hands down in
> the crema department (though the color is a deal lighter, I'll admit)
>
> Therories;
> 1. I'm getting a lot of grounds in the cup, so my guess is that the
> baskets have too little resistance, too wide or many holes for the
> perfect cup.
> 2. The pump delivers more than 9 bars of pressure, making the coffee
> extract too fast.

The Francis X1 uses 'pressurized' or 'crema enhancing' filters. This
basically means that they will produce crema from practically any coffee
of any grind and tamp is not a big issue. But the crema isn't exactly
what the Silvia and other 'non pressurized' machines do.

You need a grinder so that you can go to whole bean and adjust the grind
and tamp to your hearts content, until you hit the combo that produces
that 25 second, crema topped, god shot.

No grinder, probably not good brew... ;-(