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Date: 21 Sep 2006 18:05:39
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
I've just acquired a Bunn ES-1A on eBay. The seller said it was tested &
works - but of course don't they all? I have the manuals from Bunn & I found
a reference to Don Pighetti (888-673-2441) in AC as a parts supplier (any
other recommendations?).

I'm curious if any of you have a Bunn & use it? I've got a La Cimbali
2-group M32 Classic that's just too big to keep at home (according to the
spouse). I also have a Nuova Simonelli Oscar I'm selling on eBay (lack of
hot water tap), a NS Personal that I'm restoring, & a NS Mac Cup that
someone's sending me to work on, plus an assortment of Gaggia & La Pavoni
home machines.

But if it works OK I'll probably use the Bunn at home (I like its looks) &
relegate the rest to eBay or give them to friends. I'd sure appreciate it if
anyone would be willing to exchange Bunn ideas & experiences with me. I'm
not a professional espresso anything (sales, service, or retail), just an
avid coffee fanatic who loves tearing things up just to look at them, see
how they work, & maybe make them work better.
--
Robert (of whom it's been said, "He'll tinker with his own casket.") Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r






 
Date: 26 Sep 2006 16:05:33
From: Godzilla
Subject: Re: New PF for Estro Vapore
On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:35:54 -0700, daveb wrote:

> I thought you were gonna junk this machine??
>
> 10 years?

I have my Honda Civic for almost 15 years, and my VW for 26 years before
that. By that measure, this Vapore is just getting beyond the "break-in"
period. ;-)

The results with today's espresso were very interesting. There are so many
inter-related factors at work, that it is often difficult to isolate which
one or ones produced the result. Last week, I installed a new top burr on
my Solis 166 grinder. Formerly, I could turn the hopper down to #1 (of 13)
notches for my espresso and #5 for the drip setting. This new burr
(because of manufacturing tolerances) met resistance at #4, although I
could force it down to #1 with some effort. I made a first approximation
setting at #6 today for the test pull.

Remember, I was using Malabar Gold roasted 16 days ago, which seems
to have a wide tolerance for settings, age, and temperature. It took 17
seconds to pull a one ounce shot, which is still short of the classical
book range. However, it tasted GREAT and had more than emple amount of
crema. I have not brushed my teeth since, because I did not want to lose
the flavor. Tomorrow, I shall use the remainder of this batch of beans at
one notch finer on the grinder, to see if that extends the time frame.

Who ever said that espresso making was not rocket science? ;-)

Godzilla


 
Date: 23 Sep 2006 14:46:26
From: daveb
Subject: Re: preinfuse.
OR just turn on the pump for a few seconds then off for a few -- then
run the pump to complete the shot. NO timer or wiring needed.

duh. easy.

Dave



  
Date: 24 Sep 2006 08:20:03
From: Danny
Subject: Re: preinfuse.
daveb wrote:
> OR just turn on the pump for a few seconds then off for a few -- then
> run the pump to complete the shot. NO timer or wiring needed.
>
> duh. easy.
>
> Dave
>

Preinfusion should be at a much lower than pump pressure. That's the
point. Gently soaking the cake before the full pump force hits it.
There are many ways of achieving that - my lever machines preinfuse at
boiler pressure (1.1 bar).

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



 
Date: 22 Sep 2006 14:05:53
From: espressoMarv
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Thank you for the replies.

Ken,

I have a jr DT1 but I am running it off of a flojet pump and
consequently only have approx 1.5 bar. The reason I asked the question
was referring to "manual preinfusion " thinking this was not using
mains pressure.

what am now thinking of is to get a non cimbali flow restictor ( maybe
from swedgelock) and put it in the water line.

vin
I
Ken Fox wrote:
> Assumptions for someone contemplating doing this modification:
>
> (1) they have a plumbed in rotary pump machine that in it's native
> configuration does not preinfuse
>
> (2) they are running their machine off of mains pressure and not a bottle
>
> (3) their mains pressure is sufficient (at least 3 bar), and they have some
> way of measuring these pressures, preferably both via a gauge on the input
> side and a PF manometer at the group end.
>
> (4) their mains pressure is being regulated with a pressure regulator before
> the water gets to the machine
>
> (5) the pressure regulator is capable of being adjusted to produce water at
> about the right preinfusion pressure (~3 to 3.5 bar in my experience, which
> might differ by machine type)
>
> (6) note that not all pressure regulators can do #5, above. The regulator I
> had, which I bought from Chris' Coffee, would not go above about 1.5 bar at
> maximum
>
> (7) the person doing the modification has some experience with electrical
> wiring and will follow necessary safety procedures such as unplugging the
> machine prior to modifying it, and installing the part in a place where the
> delay timer and its wiring are protected from obvious hazards such as water,
> or shorting out to the case (which could ruin your whole day if you were to
> touch it). All mods, including this one, are done at the user's sole risk
> to life and of damage to the machine in question.
>
> ken



  
Date: 22 Sep 2006 19:44:52
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
"espressov" <espressov@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158959153.690923.192440@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Thank you for the replies.
>
> Ken,
>
> I have a jr DT1 but I am running it off of a flojet pump and
> consequently only have approx 1.5 bar. The reason I asked the question
> was referring to "manual preinfusion " thinking this was not using
> mains pressure.
>
> what am now thinking of is to get a non cimbali flow restictor ( maybe
> from swedgelock) and put it in the water line.
>
> vin

vin,

The setup I have for preinfusion is a poor man's approach using regulated
mains pressure and a simple delay timer on the machine's rotary pump. Since
most people with plumbed in rotary espresso machines will be using the water
main for their input source, and will have sufficient mains water pressure,
it is an approach that could be widely used. There are other, much fancier
ways to create a variable pressure profile during a shot, such as what
fellow altie Andy Schecter is doing with his machine. Someone who already
has a pressure regulator on their water line could do the modification I did
for less than $25 for the part; in contrast, Andy's method is going to set
you back a whole lot of money plus you are going to have to be a whole lot
ster as his modification is quite complicated.

The mains water input regulator I'm using is Italian made but not a Cimbali
OEM part. I bought it from our friends Michael and Angelo at Espresso
Resource in Los Angeles.

ken




 
Date: 22 Sep 2006 08:13:43
From: espressoMarv
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Robert,

by preinfusing do you mean just letting some water out of the group to
soak the puck? If not, how are you doing this?

thank you

vin


Robert Harmon wrote:
> Thanks for the pointers Ken! That's the first I heard of this mod, but I've
> been manually preinfusing (10 sec) for years. I'm sure you're right & I'll
> do the mod next week.
> --
> Robert (Old dogs can learn new tricks; I haven't peed on the carpet in
> years.) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4ngtrbFafr6jU1@individual.net...
> > "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:vqGQg.10669$v%4.5511@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> >
> >> And I'll tell you a secret about Cimbali; they're very picky about grind.
> >> Every time I change beans or roast I have to search for that sweet spot
> >> all over again. I guess in the environment they're built for, a
> >> professional coffee shop, they function very well - probably because the
> >> pros buy in large enough quantities that the sweet spot remains constant.
> >
> > You can't really generalize about Cimbali machines, at least not the
> > Cimbali machines that are most commonly owned by alties in their homes,
> > used Juniors with vibe pumps.
> >
> > Older Cimbalis with vibe pumps are quite forgiving of minor barista errors
> > such as modest dosing inconsistencies and minor grind setting
> > discrepancies. When Cimbali ported over their designs to rotary pumps,
> > they made what in my judgement was an error; they did not account for the
> > fact that rotary pumps, as they have used them, have an almost immediate
> > pressure ramp up to 9 bar (or wherever you have them set) as opposed to
> > the gradual pressure increase one finds with the vibe pump models. My
> > vibe pump machine, circa 1995, takes about 7 seconds to get up to
> > pressure, with its well regulated OPV. My rotary machine, in its original
> > configuration, almost immediately reached 9 bar.
> >
> > One can correct this "error in design" on the part of Cimbali in their
> > rotary pump machines, by preinfusing with regulated mains pressure for the
> > first part of the shot (in my case, I do it for 6 seconds) with a solid
> > state cube delay timer wired into the rotary pump motor.
> >
> > Once a machine is so modified, it becomes as forgiving as the older vibe
> > pump machines and of equivalent "foregiveness," to use Dan Kehn's term, as
> > most other machines that have preinfusion built into their designs.
> >
> > ken
> >
> >



  
Date: 22 Sep 2006 09:32:19
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
"espressov" <espressov@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158938023.714846.103160@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> by preinfusing do you mean just letting some water out of the group to
> soak the puck? If not, how are you doing this?
>
> thank you
>
> vin
>

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/c863a50250f6d5c9/ed333ce506ff59f3?lnk=gst&q=how+to+preinfuse&rnum=1#ed333ce506ff59f3

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/68421646961d4c19/bae0d4c71937bfee?lnk=gst&q=how+to+preinfuse&rnum=5#bae0d4c71937bfee

for the part used:

http://www.mcmaster.com/

search for part #77055K47

$23.73 USD

ken




   
Date: 22 Sep 2006 10:06:56
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Assumptions for someone contemplating doing this modification:

(1) they have a plumbed in rotary pump machine that in it's native
configuration does not preinfuse

(2) they are running their machine off of mains pressure and not a bottle

(3) their mains pressure is sufficient (at least 3 bar), and they have some
way of measuring these pressures, preferably both via a gauge on the input
side and a PF manometer at the group end.

(4) their mains pressure is being regulated with a pressure regulator before
the water gets to the machine

(5) the pressure regulator is capable of being adjusted to produce water at
about the right preinfusion pressure (~3 to 3.5 bar in my experience, which
might differ by machine type)

(6) note that not all pressure regulators can do #5, above. The regulator I
had, which I bought from Chris' Coffee, would not go above about 1.5 bar at
maximum

(7) the person doing the modification has some experience with electrical
wiring and will follow necessary safety procedures such as unplugging the
machine prior to modifying it, and installing the part in a place where the
delay timer and its wiring are protected from obvious hazards such as water,
or shorting out to the case (which could ruin your whole day if you were to
touch it). All mods, including this one, are done at the user's sole risk
to life and of damage to the machine in question.

ken




  
Date: 22 Sep 2006 11:31:23
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Preinfusion generally means wetting the puck at less than full presssure
before the main extraction begins. The puck is less likely to fracture and
channel if pre-infused. There are various ways of doing this - special
built in preinfusion systems inside the head (E61), restrictors (gicleurs)
that don't allow the full force of the water to hit the puck immediately,
methods for opening the passage to the brew head either manually or via
solenoid before the pump turns on so that water at mains pressure hits the
puck first, and vibe pumps and levers which naturally ramp up the pressure
slowly. Have I missed any?




"espressov" <espressov@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158938023.714846.103160@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Robert,
>
> by preinfusing do you mean just letting some water out of the group to
> soak the puck? If not, how are you doing this?
>
> thank you
>
> vin
>
>
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> Thanks for the pointers Ken! That's the first I heard of this mod, but
>> I've
>> been manually preinfusing (10 sec) for years. I'm sure you're right &
>> I'll
>> do the mod next week.
>> --
>> Robert (Old dogs can learn new tricks; I haven't peed on the carpet in
>> years.) Harmon
>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>
>> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4ngtrbFafr6jU1@individual.net...
>> > "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:vqGQg.10669$v%4.5511@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >> >
>> >> And I'll tell you a secret about Cimbali; they're very picky about
>> >> grind.
>> >> Every time I change beans or roast I have to search for that sweet
>> >> spot
>> >> all over again. I guess in the environment they're built for, a
>> >> professional coffee shop, they function very well - probably because
>> >> the
>> >> pros buy in large enough quantities that the sweet spot remains
>> >> constant.
>> >
>> > You can't really generalize about Cimbali machines, at least not the
>> > Cimbali machines that are most commonly owned by alties in their homes,
>> > used Juniors with vibe pumps.
>> >
>> > Older Cimbalis with vibe pumps are quite forgiving of minor barista
>> > errors
>> > such as modest dosing inconsistencies and minor grind setting
>> > discrepancies. When Cimbali ported over their designs to rotary pumps,
>> > they made what in my judgement was an error; they did not account for
>> > the
>> > fact that rotary pumps, as they have used them, have an almost
>> > immediate
>> > pressure ramp up to 9 bar (or wherever you have them set) as opposed to
>> > the gradual pressure increase one finds with the vibe pump models. My
>> > vibe pump machine, circa 1995, takes about 7 seconds to get up to
>> > pressure, with its well regulated OPV. My rotary machine, in its
>> > original
>> > configuration, almost immediately reached 9 bar.
>> >
>> > One can correct this "error in design" on the part of Cimbali in their
>> > rotary pump machines, by preinfusing with regulated mains pressure for
>> > the
>> > first part of the shot (in my case, I do it for 6 seconds) with a solid
>> > state cube delay timer wired into the rotary pump motor.
>> >
>> > Once a machine is so modified, it becomes as forgiving as the older
>> > vibe
>> > pump machines and of equivalent "foregiveness," to use Dan Kehn's term,
>> > as
>> > most other machines that have preinfusion built into their designs.
>> >
>> > ken
>> >
>> >
>




 
Date: 21 Sep 2006 20:26:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Google the archives for more on this machine. IIRC, it was built by Spanish
Gaggia aka Futurmat (only a historic connection to Gaggia of Italy) and has
a reputation as being lightly built and problem prone in commercial service.
If a Cimbali is a Cadillac, an ES-1 is a Yugo. If Bunn no longer stocks
parts (its been maybe a decade since they stopped selling these machines)
you might be able to find parts from the equivalent Futurmat model - Ascaso
dealers (such as crossroads, EPNW) carry a lot of stuff for them.


"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:TvAQg.478$o71.474@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I've just acquired a Bunn ES-1A on eBay. The seller said it was tested &
> works - but of course don't they all? I have the manuals from Bunn & I
> found a reference to Don Pighetti (888-673-2441) in AC as a parts supplier
> (any other recommendations?).
>
> I'm curious if any of you have a Bunn & use it? I've got a La Cimbali
> 2-group M32 Classic that's just too big to keep at home (according to the
> spouse). I also have a Nuova Simonelli Oscar I'm selling on eBay (lack of
> hot water tap), a NS Personal that I'm restoring, & a NS Mac Cup that
> someone's sending me to work on, plus an assortment of Gaggia & La Pavoni
> home machines.
>
> But if it works OK I'll probably use the Bunn at home (I like its looks) &
> relegate the rest to eBay or give them to friends. I'd sure appreciate it
> if anyone would be willing to exchange Bunn ideas & experiences with me.
> I'm not a professional espresso anything (sales, service, or retail), just
> an avid coffee fanatic who loves tearing things up just to look at them,
> see how they work, & maybe make them work better.
> --
> Robert (of whom it's been said, "He'll tinker with his own casket.")
> Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>




  
Date: 22 Sep 2006 00:49:31
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Howdy Jack,
I did the Google thing & saw that IF you can get parts these work very well
as home machines. I've also been in touch with a small handful of people
with Bunn machines and without exception they love them.

And I'll tell you a secret about Cimbali; they're very picky about grind.
Every time I change beans or roast I have to search for that sweet spot all
over again. I guess in the environment they're built for, a professional
coffee shop, they function very well - probably because the pros buy in
large enough quantities that the sweet spot remains constant.

Thanks for the hint Ascaso dealers! I hadn't thought to check out the other
lines made by Gaggia Espanola.
--
Robert (not anti-Cimbali, just no longer enamored with 'em) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:6qWdnb6eKokCsI7YnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Google the archives for more on this machine. IIRC, it was built by
> Spanish Gaggia aka Futurmat (only a historic connection to Gaggia of
> Italy) and has a reputation as being lightly built and problem prone in
> commercial service. If a Cimbali is a Cadillac, an ES-1 is a Yugo. If Bunn
> no longer stocks parts (its been maybe a decade since they stopped selling
> these machines) you might be able to find parts from the equivalent
> Futurmat model - Ascaso dealers (such as crossroads, EPNW) carry a lot of
> stuff for them.
>



   
Date: 21 Sep 2006 19:50:40
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:vqGQg.10669$v%4.5511@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> And I'll tell you a secret about Cimbali; they're very picky about grind.
> Every time I change beans or roast I have to search for that sweet spot
> all over again. I guess in the environment they're built for, a
> professional coffee shop, they function very well - probably because the
> pros buy in large enough quantities that the sweet spot remains constant.

You can't really generalize about Cimbali machines, at least not the Cimbali
machines that are most commonly owned by alties in their homes, used Juniors
with vibe pumps.

Older Cimbalis with vibe pumps are quite forgiving of minor barista errors
such as modest dosing inconsistencies and minor grind setting discrepancies.
When Cimbali ported over their designs to rotary pumps, they made what in my
judgement was an error; they did not account for the fact that rotary pumps,
as they have used them, have an almost immediate pressure ramp up to 9 bar
(or wherever you have them set) as opposed to the gradual pressure increase
one finds with the vibe pump models. My vibe pump machine, circa 1995,
takes about 7 seconds to get up to pressure, with its well regulated OPV.
My rotary machine, in its original configuration, almost immediately reached
9 bar.

One can correct this "error in design" on the part of Cimbali in their
rotary pump machines, by preinfusing with regulated mains pressure for the
first part of the shot (in my case, I do it for 6 seconds) with a solid
state cube delay timer wired into the rotary pump motor.

Once a machine is so modified, it becomes as forgiving as the older vibe
pump machines and of equivalent "foregiveness," to use Dan Kehn's term, as
most other machines that have preinfusion built into their designs.

ken




    
Date: 22 Sep 2006 15:49:25
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
In article <4ngtrbFafr6jU1@individual.net >,
morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com says...
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:vqGQg.10669$v%4.5511@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > And I'll tell you a secret about Cimbali; they're very picky about grind.
> > Every time I change beans or roast I have to search for that sweet spot
> > all over again. I guess in the environment they're built for, a
> > professional coffee shop, they function very well - probably because the
> > pros buy in large enough quantities that the sweet spot remains constant.
>
>
> One can correct this "error in design" on the part of Cimbali in their
> rotary pump machines, by preinfusing with regulated mains pressure for the
> first part of the shot (in my case, I do it for 6 seconds) with a solid
> state cube delay timer wired into the rotary pump motor.
>
> Once a machine is so modified, it becomes as forgiving as the older vibe
> pump machines and of equivalent "foregiveness," to use Dan Kehn's term, as
> most other machines that have preinfusion built into their designs.
>
At Ken's suggestion, I put the same delay relay into my rotary Wega. I
have mine set for a 5 second delay. It was easy and I like the results.

Rick


    
Date: 22 Sep 2006 02:02:25
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Now it's a Bunn ES-1A on my bench!
Thanks for the pointers Ken! That's the first I heard of this mod, but I've
been manually preinfusing (10 sec) for years. I'm sure you're right & I'll
do the mod next week.
--
Robert (Old dogs can learn new tricks; I haven't peed on the carpet in
years.) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4ngtrbFafr6jU1@individual.net...
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:vqGQg.10669$v%4.5511@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> And I'll tell you a secret about Cimbali; they're very picky about grind.
>> Every time I change beans or roast I have to search for that sweet spot
>> all over again. I guess in the environment they're built for, a
>> professional coffee shop, they function very well - probably because the
>> pros buy in large enough quantities that the sweet spot remains constant.
>
> You can't really generalize about Cimbali machines, at least not the
> Cimbali machines that are most commonly owned by alties in their homes,
> used Juniors with vibe pumps.
>
> Older Cimbalis with vibe pumps are quite forgiving of minor barista errors
> such as modest dosing inconsistencies and minor grind setting
> discrepancies. When Cimbali ported over their designs to rotary pumps,
> they made what in my judgement was an error; they did not account for the
> fact that rotary pumps, as they have used them, have an almost immediate
> pressure ramp up to 9 bar (or wherever you have them set) as opposed to
> the gradual pressure increase one finds with the vibe pump models. My
> vibe pump machine, circa 1995, takes about 7 seconds to get up to
> pressure, with its well regulated OPV. My rotary machine, in its original
> configuration, almost immediately reached 9 bar.
>
> One can correct this "error in design" on the part of Cimbali in their
> rotary pump machines, by preinfusing with regulated mains pressure for the
> first part of the shot (in my case, I do it for 6 seconds) with a solid
> state cube delay timer wired into the rotary pump motor.
>
> Once a machine is so modified, it becomes as forgiving as the older vibe
> pump machines and of equivalent "foregiveness," to use Dan Kehn's term, as
> most other machines that have preinfusion built into their designs.
>
> ken
>
>