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Date: 17 Sep 2007 15:11:16
From:
Subject: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
I know this is a common problem & sometimes it even goes away on its
own, but when I powered on my new Oscar (this is my 2nd- my original
still works just fine) for the firtst time, the pump did not switch on
& the boiler, therefore, did not fill.

By tilting the entire machine, I can get the pump to run for about 3
sec. before it stops again- there's no way it filled the boiler,
right? Reservoir is full (not distilled), pumps to brewhead, etc.
Just doesn't autofill.

I have disconnected the autofill relay and confirmed that the pump
DOES indeed work. Upon reconnection, however, Oscar goes back to
thinking that its boiler is full. It should also be noted that "low
water" light is NOT on at any time. Could the autofill "probe" be
sitting too low in the boiler- or something along those lines?

I'm thinking of swapping the autofill switch with my other (known to
be working) Oscar's switch to see if that might be the problem.
Failing that, I figure I'll swap "brains".

Is there anything else that I might try to fix this?

TIA,
-cd





 
Date: 20 Sep 2007 09:52:21
From: JoeP
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 19, 10:07 pm, Barry Jarrett <ba...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:34:50 -0700, JoeP <j...@internet-realty.com>
> wrote:
>
> >minerals. I want to say it was the Bezzera BZ02 but I'm not positive.
> >I never tried it out so it's probably isn't completely true. But I
> >just checked and yeah it warns against using distilled or RO water.
>
> i'm not disputing that. i'm pointing out that you have the action
> backwards. the autofill shuts off when the probe is grounded out
> through the water. if the water is non-conductive, then the probe
> never grounds and the autofill doesn't shut off, resulting in an
> overfull boiler (and possibly water shooting out the pop valve).

Ahh...Thanks for the clarification Barry. I am not an electrician, I
have more of a mechanical background.

Joe
www.greencoffeebuyngclub.com
"where frends get together and split bags of coffee"



 
Date: 19 Sep 2007 21:34:50
From: JoeP
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 19, 8:44 pm, Barry Jarrett <ba...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:39:58 -0700, JoeP <j...@internet-realty.com>
> wrote:
>
> >What kind of water are you using? If you are using water that has had
> >the minerals taken out (I think its distilled) then sometimes the
> >autofill will not kick on because the water isn't conductive enough.
>
> ummm.... NO.
>
> the autofill will not shut off because the water isn't conductive
> enough.

You're probably right, but I remember one of my machines that had an
autofill switch, the user manual warned against using a certain type
of water because the autofill switch needs a certain amount of
minerals. I want to say it was the Bezzera BZ02 but I'm not positive.
I never tried it out so it's probably isn't completely true. But I
just checked and yeah it warns against using distilled or RO water.

Joe
www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com
"where freinds get together and split bags of coffee"



  
Date: 20 Sep 2007 00:07:44
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:34:50 -0700, JoeP <joe@internet-realty.com >
wrote:

>minerals. I want to say it was the Bezzera BZ02 but I'm not positive.
>I never tried it out so it's probably isn't completely true. But I
>just checked and yeah it warns against using distilled or RO water.


i'm not disputing that. i'm pointing out that you have the action
backwards. the autofill shuts off when the probe is grounded out
through the water. if the water is non-conductive, then the probe
never grounds and the autofill doesn't shut off, resulting in an
overfull boiler (and possibly water shooting out the pop valve).



   
Date: 20 Sep 2007 11:08:41
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
In article <8uv3f3lfmnrc1p56tfm7gusa4rooklaj79@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:34:50 -0700, JoeP <joe@internet-realty.com>
> wrote:
>
> >minerals. I want to say it was the Bezzera BZ02 but I'm not positive.
> >I never tried it out so it's probably isn't completely true. But I
> >just checked and yeah it warns against using distilled or RO water.
>
>
> i'm not disputing that. i'm pointing out that you have the action
> backwards. the autofill shuts off when the probe is grounded out
> through the water. if the water is non-conductive, then the probe
> never grounds and the autofill doesn't shut off, resulting in an
> overfull boiler (and possibly water shooting out the pop valve).

Oddly enough, I experienced the same phenomenon as the O.P. Some
time ago, I had an R.O. system installed in the kitchen. Before I
learned the error of my ways, I used it 'straight' in my autofill
machine.

I learned said error when the heater burner out. Autofill never
kicked in. Now I use 1/2 R.O. and 1/2 tap and all is fine.

That implies that some brain boxes work with negative logic. OTOH,
if I want to force fill my boiler, I simply disconnect the
autofill wire from the top of the boiler. It didn't make sense to
me at the time (and still doesn't) but it happened...

--
M for N in address to mail reply


    
Date: 20 Sep 2007 23:32:37
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
Autofill signals pump to run when circuit is not complete. So if you remove
wire, circuit is open and pump runs. If you pin the lead to ground, the
pump stops. Normally when wire is attached, the probe sticks down into the
water and s small low voltage current flows thru the conductive water (pump
remains off). When the water level falls, air/steam is not conductive so
brain reads this as a signal for pump to run until water level rises (path
to ground re-established). AFAIK, all autfills work this way - how would you
implement an autofill with a top probe (and they are always top probes) that
worked on "negative logic" ?

Usually distilled water also confuses the tank empty sensor - it again
relies on conduction thru the water/no conduction thru air to determine
whether there is water in the tank or not.

If there is an alternate path to ground (say a trail of conductive dirt
between the probe and the boiler around the collar) this could pin the line
to ground so the pump would remain off even if the water level fell.

"Neal Reid" <NealReid@Nagma.ca > wrote in message
news:NealReid-518B6B.11084020092007@ispnews.usenetserver.com...
> In article <8uv3f3lfmnrc1p56tfm7gusa4rooklaj79@4ax.com>,
> Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:34:50 -0700, JoeP <joe@internet-realty.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >minerals. I want to say it was the Bezzera BZ02 but I'm not positive.
>> >I never tried it out so it's probably isn't completely true. But I
>> >just checked and yeah it warns against using distilled or RO water.
>>
>>
>> i'm not disputing that. i'm pointing out that you have the action
>> backwards. the autofill shuts off when the probe is grounded out
>> through the water. if the water is non-conductive, then the probe
>> never grounds and the autofill doesn't shut off, resulting in an
>> overfull boiler (and possibly water shooting out the pop valve).
>
> Oddly enough, I experienced the same phenomenon as the O.P. Some
> time ago, I had an R.O. system installed in the kitchen. Before I
> learned the error of my ways, I used it 'straight' in my autofill
> machine.
>
> I learned said error when the heater burner out. Autofill never
> kicked in. Now I use 1/2 R.O. and 1/2 tap and all is fine.
>
> That implies that some brain boxes work with negative logic. OTOH,
> if I want to force fill my boiler, I simply disconnect the
> autofill wire from the top of the boiler. It didn't make sense to
> me at the time (and still doesn't) but it happened...
>
> --
> M for N in address to mail reply




     
Date: 21 Sep 2007 13:56:12
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
In article <1PidnW5NCbnIpm7bnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

> Usually distilled water also confuses the tank empty sensor - it again
> relies on conduction thru the water/no conduction thru air to determine
> whether there is water in the tank or not.
Just so - hence 'pure' water (be it distilled or R.O.) should
cause the pump to run continuously as Barry said.
> If there is an alternate path to ground (say a trail of conductive dirt
> between the probe and the boiler around the collar) this could pin the line
> to ground so the pump would remain off even if the water level fell.
When I replaced the element, I noticed the sensor rod on the
auto-fill was quite corroded so I replaced it as well. Perhaps my
use of straight R.O. water and burn out ware unrelated coincidence.

As I said originally, it never has made any sense to me - but when
I saw the O.P's post, I was reminded of my experience.

When next the opporknockity tunes, I shall try straight R.O. again
just to see what happens

--
M for N in address to mail reply


 
Date: 19 Sep 2007 16:39:58
From: JoeP
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 18, 12:01 pm, chuckd <iamchu...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 7:58 pm, "Brent" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Remember that full isn't "full" it's better description is perhaps "enough"
>
> > >I know this is a common problem & sometimes it even goes away on its
> > > own, but when I powered on my new Oscar (this is my 2nd- my original
> > > still works just fine) for the firtst time, the pump did not switch on
> > > & the boiler, therefore, did not fill.
>
> > > By tilting the entire machine, I can get the pump to run for about 3
> > > sec. before it stops again- there's no way it filled the boiler,
> > > right? Reservoir is full (not distilled), pumps to brewhead, etc.
> > > Just doesn't autofill.
>
> > > I have disconnected the autofill relay and confirmed that the pump
> > > DOES indeed work. Upon reconnection, however, Oscar goes back to
> > > thinking that its boiler is full. It should also be noted that "low
> > > water" light is NOT on at any time. Could the autofill "probe" be
> > > sitting too low in the boiler- or something along those lines?
>
> > > I'm thinking of swapping the autofill switch with my other (known to
> > > be working) Oscar's switch to see if that might be the problem.
> > > Failing that, I figure I'll swap "brains".
>
> > > Is there anything else that I might try to fix this?
>
> > > TIA,
> > > -cd- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> OK- Yesterday before work, I drained the boiler via the rear drain
> plug (loosened the sensor probe fitting to equalize pressure & allow
> it to actually drain). Put it all back together, plugged it in,
> powered it on and.... nothing. Powered off, unplugged it, cursed up &
> down, went to work.
>
> This morning I decide to try one more time before I throw it against
> the wall. Plugged it in, powered on and.... BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!- the
> beautiful (to me, at that moment anyway) sound of the vibe pump
> pierced the morning silence. A nice, long & drawn out dischord that
> indicated to me that Oscar's autofill had finally decided to work.
>
> I guess I fixed it in my sleep ;)
>
> Thanks to all who replied- but seriously, what the heck happened?
>
> Regards,
> -cd- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What kind of water are you using? If you are using water that has had
the minerals taken out (I think its distilled) then sometimes the
autofill will not kick on because the water isn't conductive enough.

Joe
www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com
"where freinds get together and split bags of coffee"



  
Date: 19 Sep 2007 22:44:59
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:39:58 -0700, JoeP <joe@internet-realty.com >
wrote:

>What kind of water are you using? If you are using water that has had
>the minerals taken out (I think its distilled) then sometimes the
>autofill will not kick on because the water isn't conductive enough.

ummm.... NO.

the autofill will not shut off because the water isn't conductive
enough.



 
Date: 18 Sep 2007 19:01:40
From: chuckd
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 17, 7:58 pm, "Brent" <m...@privacy.net > wrote:
> Remember that full isn't "full" it's better description is perhaps "enough"
>
>
>
> >I know this is a common problem & sometimes it even goes away on its
> > own, but when I powered on my new Oscar (this is my 2nd- my original
> > still works just fine) for the firtst time, the pump did not switch on
> > & the boiler, therefore, did not fill.
>
> > By tilting the entire machine, I can get the pump to run for about 3
> > sec. before it stops again- there's no way it filled the boiler,
> > right? Reservoir is full (not distilled), pumps to brewhead, etc.
> > Just doesn't autofill.
>
> > I have disconnected the autofill relay and confirmed that the pump
> > DOES indeed work. Upon reconnection, however, Oscar goes back to
> > thinking that its boiler is full. It should also be noted that "low
> > water" light is NOT on at any time. Could the autofill "probe" be
> > sitting too low in the boiler- or something along those lines?
>
> > I'm thinking of swapping the autofill switch with my other (known to
> > be working) Oscar's switch to see if that might be the problem.
> > Failing that, I figure I'll swap "brains".
>
> > Is there anything else that I might try to fix this?
>
> > TIA,
> > -cd- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

OK- Yesterday before work, I drained the boiler via the rear drain
plug (loosened the sensor probe fitting to equalize pressure & allow
it to actually drain). Put it all back together, plugged it in,
powered it on and.... nothing. Powered off, unplugged it, cursed up &
down, went to work.

This morning I decide to try one more time before I throw it against
the wall. Plugged it in, powered on and.... BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!- the
beautiful (to me, at that moment anyway) sound of the vibe pump
pierced the morning silence. A nice, long & drawn out dischord that
indicated to me that Oscar's autofill had finally decided to work.

I guess I fixed it in my sleep ;)

Thanks to all who replied- but seriously, what the heck happened?

Regards,
-cd



  
Date: 18 Sep 2007 17:15:32
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling

the pixies were having fun with you.


--barry "i drive an MG; i know pixies!"


 
Date: 18 Sep 2007 14:58:04
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
Remember that full isn't "full" it's better description is perhaps "enough"

>I know this is a common problem & sometimes it even goes away on its
> own, but when I powered on my new Oscar (this is my 2nd- my original
> still works just fine) for the firtst time, the pump did not switch on
> & the boiler, therefore, did not fill.
>
> By tilting the entire machine, I can get the pump to run for about 3
> sec. before it stops again- there's no way it filled the boiler,
> right? Reservoir is full (not distilled), pumps to brewhead, etc.
> Just doesn't autofill.
>
> I have disconnected the autofill relay and confirmed that the pump
> DOES indeed work. Upon reconnection, however, Oscar goes back to
> thinking that its boiler is full. It should also be noted that "low
> water" light is NOT on at any time. Could the autofill "probe" be
> sitting too low in the boiler- or something along those lines?
>
> I'm thinking of swapping the autofill switch with my other (known to
> be working) Oscar's switch to see if that might be the problem.
> Failing that, I figure I'll swap "brains".
>
> Is there anything else that I might try to fix this?
>
> TIA,
> -cd
>




 
Date: 18 Sep 2007 01:09:01
From: chuckd
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 17, 4:58 pm, lockjaw <davebo...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 6:51 pm, chuckd <iamchu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 3:35 pm, Barry Jarrett <ba...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
> > > what part of your description isn't "normal"?
>
> > I suppose I should have been more clear. My Oscar doesn't autofill.
> > I know the boiler was empty to begin with, because the machine is
> > brand new.
>
> > 1) I filled the reservoir with water (which I already know to be
> > "conductive enough") then turned on the machine for the first time.
> > 2) Upon powering up for the first time, the boiler did not autofill.
> > 3) When I disconnect the autofill sensor from the boiler, the pump
> > kicks in just fine (so the pump is not the problem). When I reconnect
> > the sensor, Oscar thinks the boiler is full- when is most obviously in
> > NOT.
> > 4) Therefore, with the autofill sensor connected, Oscar NEVER fills
> > the boiler.
> > 5) At no time during my trials does the "low water" light turn on, so
> > I assume Oscar knows that there is water in the (plastic) reservoir.
> > 6) Oscar also pumps water through the brewhead just fine. Temp is
> > lower than I'd like, but I'll tweak that later.
>
> > Hope this clarifies the problem.
>
> > TIA,
>
> Sounds like the boiler is ALREADY FULL!
>
> DAVE
>
> www.hitechespresso.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I'll double check when I get home, but after running the steam down to
nothing, the boiler still did not autofill.



 
Date: 17 Sep 2007 23:58:48
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 17, 6:51 pm, chuckd <iamchu...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 3:35 pm, Barry Jarrett <ba...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
> > what part of your description isn't "normal"?
>
> I suppose I should have been more clear. My Oscar doesn't autofill.
> I know the boiler was empty to begin with, because the machine is
> brand new.
>
> 1) I filled the reservoir with water (which I already know to be
> "conductive enough") then turned on the machine for the first time.
> 2) Upon powering up for the first time, the boiler did not autofill.
> 3) When I disconnect the autofill sensor from the boiler, the pump
> kicks in just fine (so the pump is not the problem). When I reconnect
> the sensor, Oscar thinks the boiler is full- when is most obviously in
> NOT.
> 4) Therefore, with the autofill sensor connected, Oscar NEVER fills
> the boiler.
> 5) At no time during my trials does the "low water" light turn on, so
> I assume Oscar knows that there is water in the (plastic) reservoir.
> 6) Oscar also pumps water through the brewhead just fine. Temp is
> lower than I'd like, but I'll tweak that later.
>
> Hope this clarifies the problem.
>
> TIA,
>

Sounds like the boiler is ALREADY FULL!

DAVE

www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 17 Sep 2007 22:51:53
From: chuckd
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Sep 17, 3:35 pm, Barry Jarrett <ba...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> what part of your description isn't "normal"?

I suppose I should have been more clear. My Oscar doesn't autofill.
I know the boiler was empty to begin with, because the machine is
brand new.

1) I filled the reservoir with water (which I already know to be
"conductive enough") then turned on the machine for the first time.
2) Upon powering up for the first time, the boiler did not autofill.
3) When I disconnect the autofill sensor from the boiler, the pump
kicks in just fine (so the pump is not the problem). When I reconnect
the sensor, Oscar thinks the boiler is full- when is most obviously in
NOT.
4) Therefore, with the autofill sensor connected, Oscar NEVER fills
the boiler.
5) At no time during my trials does the "low water" light turn on, so
I assume Oscar knows that there is water in the (plastic) reservoir.
6) Oscar also pumps water through the brewhead just fine. Temp is
lower than I'd like, but I'll tweak that later.

Hope this clarifies the problem.

TIA,
-cd



  
Date: 17 Sep 2007 18:11:18
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:51:53 -0000, chuckd <iamchuckd@gmail.com >
wrote:

>I know the boiler was empty to begin with, because the machine is
>brand new.
>

are you positive that this assumption is correct? your description
exactly describes how an autofill should behave when there is already
sufficient water in the boiler.



 
Date: 17 Sep 2007 17:35:13
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Oscar not autofilling/refilling
what part of your description isn't "normal"?