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Date: 12 Dec 2006 15:38:26
From: daveb
Subject: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
After the first of the year [too busy right now] -- Most metal cased
Gaggias WILL be eligible for my 'pid' mod.

Feel free to write / call with any questions!

Thanks.

Dave
187
www.hitechespresso.com





 
Date: 18 Dec 2006 08:54:39
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Well, the fact that you see nothing to resolve makes resolution
unlikely, doesn't it?


Ken Fox wrote:
> <Omniryx@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1166455378.124077.256050@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > Ken, I suspect that our little pissing contest holds little interest
> > for others. I'll contact you via personal email. Maybe.
> >
>
> It holds no interest for me, either. I think if you examine our exchanges
> over the last couple of months (here and at HB) you will find that I don't
> reply very often to your posts, and that with some frequency you reply to
> mine with an acrid tone, or in a way that you ascribe to me certain
> motivations. Once again, you don't know me and you have no idea what makes
> me do the things I do or post the things I post. You have ascribed motives
> to other forum regulars as well. Perhaps this comes from your line of work;
> if so, I'd suggest leaving it at the office.
>
> I don't see that there is anything to "resolve," by email or any other way.
>
> ken



  
Date: 18 Dec 2006 10:56:33
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166460879.039040.49330@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> Well, the fact that you see nothing to resolve makes resolution
> unlikely, doesn't it?
>

I don't come here for this sort of stuff, sorry. You might find it
interesting given your work, but I don't.

If you post something that interests me I'll read it and if I have anything
of a coffee-related nature to add or comment on, I will. If you post
attempts to psychoanalyze me, or attribute motives to me, I'll either ignore
them or if they accumulate I'll killfile you.

Thanks for your consideration.

ken




 
Date: 18 Dec 2006 07:22:58
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Ken, I suspect that our little pissing contest holds little interest
for others. I'll contact you via personal email. Maybe.


Ken Fox wrote:
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4ul56iF17ivm1U1@mid.individual.net...
> > <Omniryx@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1166368372.238703.92120@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> You have data to support this assertion? I'm not being nasty; I'm
> >> asking a legitimate question.
> >>
> >>
> >> Anything so long as it isn't a Silvia, right, Ken? (OK, now I AM being
> >> nasty.)
> >>
> >
> > oh, please
> >
>
> I was going to leave it at that, but Will, on second thought I'll answer
> your questions.
>
> Unlike you, with your first post here less than 6 months ago (at least under
> this posting name), I've been here a while. I've actually met a lot of the
> people who post here at SCAA conventions, shall's excellent SCAA
> Homecomings in Long Beach, or even in their hometowns on occasion. I've had
> several in my house. I've talked to some on the phone and had extended
> off-list email exchanges with others. So yes, I have data, but is not the
> sort of data you could statistically analyze. Your posts assume a
> familiarity with people here that I believe does not exist. You assign
> motivations to people whom you do not know. I don't know about anyone else,
> but I prefer not to be related to familiarly by people I don't know. That
> includes you.
>
> I have nothing whatever against Silvias; I think they are very nice machines
> that fill a very important ket niche. They have however attracted a
> cult-like following here which I think is to the detriment of newbies
> looking to purchase equipment. Because there is so much touting of the
> Silvia, newbies tend not to look at their other alternatives which may not
> cost much more particularly if they are planning to modify the Silvia with a
> PID. If someone doesn't raise this issue, as I have done, it will not be
> raised.
>
> Thank you. You may now return to regularly scheduled programming:-)
>
> ken



  
Date:
From:
Subject:


 
Date: 17 Dec 2006 13:32:23
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
Jack Denver wrote:
Of couse no one really knows how this works because creating an "it"
product is like having a license to print money. "It" devices sell for
a
premium over ordinary mortal products and sometimes carry gross gins
that
are obscene.

Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
That, Jack, is a perfect explication of the "justa" phenomenon.
Objectification, if one wants to use the fifty-cent word.

-

At a level, and one given skeptical leeway, as it's perhaps not as
inimitable as exhaustively pursued. It is profit: whether at a lesser
or greater premium mass quantity attains, or a restrictive but regarded
quality profit, yet, commands. Profit, no more or less, as an economic
anomaly to intercept the status flow of methodical economic regularity.
How it should come to be what it is in addition, forwardly diffuse,
and refreshingly invigorating, equates to less than an entrepeneurial
alchemist at work, for whom, profits may subsidiarly be rescinded;- by
far more a measure of assets, in a matter of time, if to see by pure
dint of intelligence, how to effectively channel it off for a
consumable aftereffect.

"We shall understand, therefore, that we do not observe the emergence
of all those affective traits which are the glory of all other kinds of
social leadership. Add to this the precariousness of the economic
position both of the individual entrepreneur and of the group, and the
fact that when his economic success raises him up socially he has no
cultural tradition or attitude to fall back on, but moves about in
society as an upstart, whose ways are readily laughed at, and we shall
understand why this type has never been popular . . . "*

Conceivably, then, a harmless research engineering type, as far up to
his nose in technical phamplets as a lack of social grace will allow
sufficently to illustrate -- as pretty a picture of an remittent
entrepreneur wandering off into the morning, a sock dangling off his
head, before the housekeeper manages to intercede at the portico to
remind him to dress before leaving attired in nightclothes. Oddly off,
in an some absentminded instance of genius for wandering about in
silent halls outside, a forgotten classrooms session, or two, between,
while lost in thought.

*The Theory of Economic Development, Joesph Schumpeter.



  
Date: 18 Dec 2006 20:41:58
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Well, duh. And song writers want to write hits. Authors want to write best
sellers. The goal is clear enough. But how to do it, what the "hook" is that
gets your song in the top 40, that gets your book on the bestseller list -
very few know the secret to that.

Schumpeter was born in a world where there was still a functioning European
aristocracy and died in 1950. I think that while his thoughts on the
social awkwardness of entrepreneurs might have relevance to say the noveau
riches of Russia or maybe some rap artists today (people who rise from a
group or society in which there has always been plenty of nothing, have
never understood the understated "less is more" mentality - to them it's
pretty damn obvious that less is less and they'd prefer more), in the US
today capitalists fit into the social structure a lot better -you could say
that they ARE the social structure.





"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote in message
news:1166391142.948581.11070@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:

>
> At a level, and one given skeptical leeway, as it's perhaps not as
> inimitable as exhaustively pursued. It is profit:




 
Date: 17 Dec 2006 07:12:52
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Ken Fox wrote:
> I was comparing the purchase of a Silvia, PID'd, to the price of a cheap HX,
> for the average person. The average person makes a lot of milk drinks.
> Many of the regulars here drink more milk drinks than they would like to
> admit:-)

You have data to support this assertion? I'm not being nasty; I'm
asking a legitimate question.

> For someone making a fair proportion of milk drinks, which I would gather
> comprise the majority of people who might read this thread, a PID'd Silvia
> is not a good buy compared to a cheap HX as regards price or function. But
> if one drinks almost exclusively straight shots, that is a different story.
> Of course, an E-61 single boiler may then be a better value than a Silvia,
> don't know.

Anything so long as it isn't a Silvia, right, Ken? (OK, now I AM being
nasty.)



  
Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:14:34
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166368372.238703.92120@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ken Fox wrote:
>> I was comparing the purchase of a Silvia, PID'd, to the price of a cheap
>> HX,
>> for the average person. The average person makes a lot of milk drinks.
>> Many of the regulars here drink more milk drinks than they would like to
>> admit:-)
>
> You have data to support this assertion? I'm not being nasty; I'm
> asking a legitimate question.
>
>> For someone making a fair proportion of milk drinks, which I would gather
>> comprise the majority of people who might read this thread, a PID'd
>> Silvia
>> is not a good buy compared to a cheap HX as regards price or function.
>> But
>> if one drinks almost exclusively straight shots, that is a different
>> story.
>> Of course, an E-61 single boiler may then be a better value than a
>> Silvia,
>> don't know.
>
> Anything so long as it isn't a Silvia, right, Ken? (OK, now I AM being
> nasty.)
>

oh, please




   
Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:33:44
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4ul56iF17ivm1U1@mid.individual.net...
> <Omniryx@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1166368372.238703.92120@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> You have data to support this assertion? I'm not being nasty; I'm
>> asking a legitimate question.
>>
>>
>> Anything so long as it isn't a Silvia, right, Ken? (OK, now I AM being
>> nasty.)
>>
>
> oh, please
>

I was going to leave it at that, but Will, on second thought I'll answer
your questions.

Unlike you, with your first post here less than 6 months ago (at least under
this posting name), I've been here a while. I've actually met a lot of the
people who post here at SCAA conventions, shall's excellent SCAA
Homecomings in Long Beach, or even in their hometowns on occasion. I've had
several in my house. I've talked to some on the phone and had extended
off-list email exchanges with others. So yes, I have data, but is not the
sort of data you could statistically analyze. Your posts assume a
familiarity with people here that I believe does not exist. You assign
motivations to people whom you do not know. I don't know about anyone else,
but I prefer not to be related to familiarly by people I don't know. That
includes you.

I have nothing whatever against Silvias; I think they are very nice machines
that fill a very important ket niche. They have however attracted a
cult-like following here which I think is to the detriment of newbies
looking to purchase equipment. Because there is so much touting of the
Silvia, newbies tend not to look at their other alternatives which may not
cost much more particularly if they are planning to modify the Silvia with a
PID. If someone doesn't raise this issue, as I have done, it will not be
raised.

Thank you. You may now return to regularly scheduled programming:-)

ken




 
Date: 17 Dec 2006 07:09:34
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Ian Smith wrote:
> As such, sweeping statements that common sense indicates an HX
> is a superior machine, are nonsense.


Now, now, Ian. There you go being rational again.



 
Date: 17 Dec 2006 07:06:39
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Jack Denver wrote:
> What I don't understand is the process by which something becomes "it".
> Once something is "it" all others that come later are compared to "it".
>
> It's a nice watch but it's not a Rolex.
>
> It's a nice espresso machine but it's not a Silvia.
>
> It's a nice MP3 player but it's not an iPod.
>
> Etc.
>
> Once something is "it" in the public imagination, it becomes almost
> impossible to dislodge even if the things that come later are better.
>
> Of couse know one really knows how this works because creating an "it"
> product is like having a license to print money. "It" devices sell for a
> premium over ordinary mortal products and sometimes carry gross gins that
> are obscene.


That, Jack, is a perfect explication of the "justa" phenomenon.
Objectification, if one wants to use the fifty-cent word.



 
Date: 17 Dec 2006 07:04:30
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Robert Harmon wrote:
> As one of my ol' prof's used to say, "The true measure of a man's
> intelligence is how much he agrees with you."

Truer words, Robert. Truer words...



 
Date: 16 Dec 2006 10:07:31
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Andy Schecter wrote:
> Thing is, Ken is usually pretty accurate in his myth-busting, except of
> course, when I disagree with him. :-)
>
> -Andy S.
>

As one of my ol' prof's used to say, "The true measure of a man's
intelligence is how much he agrees with you."

Robert (Group-think rules!) Harmon



 
Date: 16 Dec 2006 05:49:55
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Ken Fox wrote:
> The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
> price when it is placed where it belongs in the hierarchy of machines one
> might place in a home.

One is inclined to dismiss this as mere trollage but, on consideration,
it reflects the kind of thinking that is prevalent throughout the world
of luxury consumables. Last year's rave is this year's passe piece of
junk. Add that to the "I don't have it and if it were worth a damn I
would" phenomenon and you have the stuff of endless debate on usenet,
whether one is talking of coffee machines, or audio equipment, or
automobiles or single malt whisky.

A sociologist friend of mine refers to this as the "justa" phenomenon:

Just a Silvia...Just a Gaggia...Just a you-fill-in.

A more caustic friend calls it sniffery.
"(sniff) It is overpriced."
"(sniff) It is a decent machine for beginners."
"(sniff) I'd give one of my students who designed it a D."

Whether Ken was looking to toss some fuel on the embers or stating the
truth as he perceives it doesn't matter. This is the kind of writing
(and thinking) that makes usenet such an endlessly fascinating venue
for people-watching.

Will (One of those people who has moved on from Silvia)



  
Date: 16 Dec 2006 15:13:25
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
What I don't understand is the process by which something becomes "it".
Once something is "it" all others that come later are compared to "it".

It's a nice watch but it's not a Rolex.

It's a nice espresso machine but it's not a Silvia.

It's a nice MP3 player but it's not an iPod.

Etc.

Once something is "it" in the public imagination, it becomes almost
impossible to dislodge even if the things that come later are better.

Of couse know one really knows how this works because creating an "it"
product is like having a license to print money. "It" devices sell for a
premium over ordinary mortal products and sometimes carry gross gins that
are obscene.



<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166276995.273547.160400@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ken Fox wrote:
>> The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
>> price when it is placed where it belongs in the hierarchy of machines one
>> might place in a home.
>
> One is inclined to dismiss this as mere trollage but, on consideration,
> it reflects the kind of thinking that is prevalent throughout the world
> of luxury consumables. Last year's rave is this year's passe piece of
> junk. Add that to the "I don't have it and if it were worth a damn I
> would" phenomenon and you have the stuff of endless debate on usenet,
> whether one is talking of coffee machines, or audio equipment, or
> automobiles or single malt whisky.
>
> A sociologist friend of mine refers to this as the "justa" phenomenon:
>
> Just a Silvia...Just a Gaggia...Just a you-fill-in.
>
> A more caustic friend calls it sniffery.
> "(sniff) It is overpriced."
> "(sniff) It is a decent machine for beginners."
> "(sniff) I'd give one of my students who designed it a D."
>
> Whether Ken was looking to toss some fuel on the embers or stating the
> truth as he perceives it doesn't matter. This is the kind of writing
> (and thinking) that makes usenet such an endlessly fascinating venue
> for people-watching.
>
> Will (One of those people who has moved on from Silvia)
>




   
Date: 16 Dec 2006 15:52:44
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias



it's a deusey, for sure!


:)


--barry "auburn, indiana"

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com


    
Date: 17 Dec 2006 00:57:15
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
I think something missed in this debate is that there is simply NO other
competitive machine in the under US$500 ket segment. Especially if you
think in terms of utility, longevity, reliability and information available.
The first Silvia I ever sold (1999) is still running, as are just about all
of the others since, AFAIK. It's all very well to go on with "For just a few
hundred dollars more you can get xxxx" but the reality is that the extra $
are probably better spent on a decent grinder.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




     
Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:04:15
From: notbob
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On 2006-12-17, Coffee for Connoisseurs <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:
> I think something missed in this debate is that there is simply NO other
> competitive machine in the under US$500 ket segment. Especially if you
> think in terms of utility, longevity, reliability and information available.

Maybe.

I've got a Solis SL90, sold to me by a friend who went to a pid
sylvia. I'd say the sylvie has the edge, but at a price of at least
$150 more. The Solis, while not having a 58mm p/f, has a superior temp
control off the shelf. It also has great steam for a single boiler.
It's also a semi-auto, as opposed to manual. Other advantages are the
used ket. Yes, sylvie's rep brings good resale value. That's a
disadvantage to 2nd hand buyers. Does my buddy's sylvie make better
espresso? Yes ...ginally... at the hands of a very savvy user.
Line up the parameters one way and sylvie looks great. Change the
parameters and not as good as before. That makes the SL90
competitive, in my opinion. Would I give up my SL90 for a pid sylvia?
Yes. But, not at a cost of $600.

mb


      
Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:35:35
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
>Does my buddy's sylvie make better
>espresso? Yes ...ginally... at the hands of a very savvy user.

And this is what we call "reality check" time. If you only drink straight
espressos, and you have an excellent palate, you CAN taste the difference in
espressos from machines like the Solis SL90 and the Gaggia Classic as well
as the Imat/Nemox/Lelit units and the Silvia. It's not huge, a touch more
flavour intensity, a little more body, but it exists. However, if you
compare the espressos on your machine with those being produced by the cafe
down the street, yours are almost certainly better.

If you add hot frothy milk and sugar to your espresso, minor differences
just disappear, and the same blend from the same grinder on different
consumer machines tastes ... the same. Funnily enough, that stays true with
the same coffee on HX machines. Milk and sugar cover a multitude of sins.

So when you're slumming around with the plebs in the non PID'd sub USD$500
ket, which machine do you recommend? The one with the best service life
(definitely not the Solis or the Gaggia) and the solid build quality (not
the Imats). I sold a few SL90's when they were easier to get here, and they
are COWS of things to service and suffer from poor engineering decisions.
Gaggia boilers deliver dissolved crud leading to blockage into the brew path
with frightening regularity.

Face facts: PID is a hobbyist affectation, NOT a mainstream consumer "must
have". People buy Silvias because they are relatively cheap, reliable and
produce great espresso compared to other machines in the same general price
bracket. They are reassured by the great mass of information and reviews
which tell them this. And when they get them home they remain pleased with
their purchase and pass along recommendations to their friends.

Going back to the original post which started this thread, which I gather
was DaveB once again spruiking his wares (dunno, I killfiled him years ago,
after about his second post), PID'ing Gaggias has to be a major WOFTAM. The
crappy brew path and water distribution, as well as the certainty that the
machine WILL clog up after a couple of years, makes it a poor investment.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




       
Date: 18 Dec 2006 16:51:44
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Coffee for Connoisseurs wrote:
>
> So when you're slumming around with the plebs in the non PID'd sub USD$500
> ket, which machine do you recommend? The one with the best service life
> (definitely not the Solis or the Gaggia) and the solid build quality (not
> the Imats). I sold a few SL90's when they were easier to get here, and they
> are COWS of things to service and suffer from poor engineering decisions.
> Gaggia boilers deliver dissolved crud leading to blockage into the brew path
> with frightening regularity.

...

> Going back to the original post which started this thread, which I gather
> was DaveB once again spruiking his wares (dunno, I killfiled him years ago,
> after about his second post), PID'ing Gaggias has to be a major WOFTAM. The
> crappy brew path and water distribution, as well as the certainty that the
> machine WILL clog up after a couple of years, makes it a poor investment.

I've had my Espresso 2 years and it's running great. PID'ing was pretty
easy too, what with all the slide-on connectors, simple wiring and free
space. I'd recommend it to anyone, newb or hobbyist.


       
Date: 17 Dec 2006 10:57:10
From: notbob
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On 2006-12-17, Coffee for Connoisseurs <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:

> compare the espressos on your machine with those being produced by the cafe
> down the street, yours are almost certainly better.

Sounds like a good arguement to me.

> If you add hot frothy milk and sugar to your espresso, minor differences
> just disappear.....

Another yes?

> are COWS of things to service and suffer from poor engineering decisions.

A understandable POV from a dealer, but lost on a consumer who is looking for
convenience and ease of use.

I'm not arguing whether or not the sylvie is a better machine, only
that the Solis is competitive and a valid choice. Add that every
buyer faced with a choice between the two is not an ac regular and
espresso process guru saturated with brewing minutia and you have the
reason why.

nb


       
Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:12:39
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Coffee for Connoisseurs" <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote in message
news:bY9hh.9581$HU.7742@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
> Face facts: PID is a hobbyist affectation, NOT a mainstream consumer "must
> have". People buy Silvias because they are relatively cheap, reliable and
> produce great espresso compared to other machines in the same general
> price bracket. They are reassured by the great mass of information and
> reviews which tell them this. And when they get them home they remain
> pleased with their purchase and pass along recommendations to their
> friends.
>

Could not agree more with this paragraph. People who are active
participants in this ng are for the most part completely unrepresentative of
the coffee consuming public. The achilles heel of the Silvia is its
thermostat which has a very wide swing in temperatures. If Rancilio would
modify this one aspect of the machine so that its temperature performance
out of the box were better, all of this PID-your-Silvia stuff would, for the
most part, disappear. And in its current price range, the customers should
demand this.

ken




        
Date: 17 Dec 2006 18:48:00
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Ken Fox wrote:
> The achilles heel of the Silvia is its
> thermostat which has a very wide swing in temperatures. If Rancilio would
> modify this one aspect of the machine so that its temperature performance
> out of the box were better, all of this PID-your-Silvia stuff would, for the
> most part, disappear. And in its current price range, the customers should
> demand this.

Because of various technical issues (the thermal associated with Silvia's
heating element, convection, sensors, etc), it's not clear what the swing in
brew water temperature would be even with a tstat that had a 0.1F deadband.

Then there's the temp variation due to the way various duty cycles interact
with Silvia's heat exchanger design (ie, the 230F boiler water cools down to
200F as it makes its way through the 170F group).

Someone with a PIDed Silvia and access to a Scace device could easily put the
PID in on/off mode with a small deadband. A quick WBC test would then answer a
lot of questions. So far, no one has stepped up to the plate.


--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


         
Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:55:39
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:Ahghh.4464$D9.52@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> >
> Someone with a PIDed Silvia and access to a Scace device could easily put
> the PID in on/off mode with a small deadband. A quick WBC test would then
> answer a lot of questions. So far, no one has stepped up to the plate.
>
>
> --
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

? Toi?




          
Date: 17 Dec 2006 19:23:16
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Ken Fox wrote:
> ? Toi?

żIsn't that first question k supposed to be upside down?

Because of plumbing mods, my Silvia is way too far gone to be of any use
whatsoever. But thanks for thinking of me. :)

--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


  
Date: 16 Dec 2006 15:34:01
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> One is inclined to dismiss this as mere trollage but, on consideration,
> it reflects the kind of thinking that is prevalent throughout the world
> of luxury consumables. Last year's rave is this year's passe piece of
> junk. Add that to the "I don't have it and if it were worth a damn I
> would" phenomenon and you have the stuff of endless debate on usenet,
> whether one is talking of coffee machines, or audio equipment, or
> automobiles or single malt whisky.
>
> A sociologist friend of mine refers to this as the "justa" phenomenon:
>
> Just a Silvia...Just a Gaggia...Just a you-fill-in.
>
> A more caustic friend calls it sniffery.

<snip >


Will, I really don't think a sociological explanation is appropriate here. My
friend Foxy prides himself on being a rationalist and a myth-buster; his post
is in that vein and it is certainly not trollage or snobbery.

Thing is, Ken is usually pretty accurate in his myth-busting, except of
course, when I disagree with him. :-)
--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


   
Date: 16 Dec 2006 13:47:42
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:JlUgh.5007$nq5.4928@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
>> One is inclined to dismiss this as mere trollage but, on consideration,
>> it reflects the kind of thinking that is prevalent throughout the world
>> of luxury consumables. Last year's rave is this year's passe piece of
>> junk. Add that to the "I don't have it and if it were worth a damn I
>> would" phenomenon and you have the stuff of endless debate on usenet,
>> whether one is talking of coffee machines, or audio equipment, or
>> automobiles or single malt whisky.
>>
>> A sociologist friend of mine refers to this as the "justa" phenomenon:
>>
>> Just a Silvia...Just a Gaggia...Just a you-fill-in.
>>
>> A more caustic friend calls it sniffery.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> Will, I really don't think a sociological explanation is appropriate here.
> My friend Foxy prides himself on being a rationalist and a myth-buster;
> his post
> is in that vein and it is certainly not trollage or snobbery.
>
> Thing is, Ken is usually pretty accurate in his myth-busting, except of
> course, when I disagree with him. :-)
> --
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for $750?
Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
common sense?

ken




    
Date: 17 Dec 2006 09:18:33
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On Sat, 16 Dec, Ken Fox <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
> competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for $750?
> Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
> common sense?

Leaving aside the price issue completely - when I was looking at
machines, it was obvious that I didn't want a HX, and wouldn't want a
HX even if it were cheaper.

I don't put any milk in my coffee.

I make one cup a weekday, maybe four a weekend day.

For this usage, a HX is (I believe) inferior to a decent hunk of brass
single boiler with a PID. My Silvia uses less time getting up to
operational, uses less electricity, and has a simpler process to
produce the coffee than a HX. It's also physically smaller so fits
easier in my small kitchen.

As such, sweeping statements that common sense indicates an HX
is a superior machine, are nonsense.

regards, Ian SMith
--


     
Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:07:37
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Ian Smith" <ian@astounding.org.uk > wrote in message
news:slrneoa2r9.cmh.ian@acheron.smithnet...
> On Sat, 16 Dec, Ken Fox <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
> As such, sweeping statements that common sense indicates an HX
> is a superior machine, are nonsense.
>
> regards, Ian SMith
> --
>


     
Date: 17 Dec 2006 08:54:28
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
In article <slrneoa2r9.cmh.ian@acheron.smithnet >,
Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk > wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Dec, Ken Fox <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
> > competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for $750?
> > Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
> > common sense?
>
> Leaving aside the price issue completely - when I was looking at
> machines, it was obvious that I didn't want a HX, and wouldn't want a
> HX even if it were cheaper.
>
> I don't put any milk in my coffee.
>
> I make one cup a weekday, maybe four a weekend day.
>
> For this usage, a HX is (I believe) inferior to a decent hunk of brass
> single boiler with a PID. My Silvia uses less time getting up to
> operational, uses less electricity, and has a simpler process to
> produce the coffee than a HX. It's also physically smaller so fits
> easier in my small kitchen.
>
> As such, sweeping statements that common sense indicates an HX
> is a superior machine, are nonsense.
>
> regards, Ian SMith

I wonder how a single boiler E61 machine compares to the Silvia. Would
it be worth the extra money? And would it be more temp stable?

I do agree with you that because of what you produce, the Silvia makes
more sense than an HX. I had figured that the idea behind HX was so you
could steam immediately instead of the relatively long heat time to
steam on a single boiler machine.


      
Date: 17 Dec 2006 18:01:21
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> I wonder how a single boiler E61 machine compares to the Silvia. Would
> it be worth the extra money? And would it be more temp stable?

I guess it all depends on which single boiler E61. The one I tried was truly
awful for temp stability.

--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


       
Date: 17 Dec 2006 16:02:45
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
In article <RBfhh.4459$D9.2277@twister.nyroc.rr.com >,
Andy Schecter <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote:

> Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> > I wonder how a single boiler E61 machine compares to the Silvia. Would
> > it be worth the extra money? And would it be more temp stable?
>
> I guess it all depends on which single boiler E61. The one I tried was truly
> awful for temp stability.

I was thinking of the Quick Mill Alexia.


        
Date: 17 Dec 2006 22:46:44
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> I was thinking of the Quick Mill Alexia.

Perhaps this subject has been discussed in detail by someone who understands
it better than I. But...

I don't "get" the principle behind the single boiler E61. The E61 requires a
loop of circulating H2O in order to operate as designed. They were built to be
used with heat exchangers, where there is enough temperature differential
(~60F?) to drive an effective thermosyphon.

When you stick an E61 on a single boiler machine, you radically cut down on
the temperature differential. Hot water just sits in the boiler, while cooler
water gets cooler still, sitting in the group.

I bought a Zaffiro and PIDed it, and the results were truly 'pitiful." Then
again, the machines are probably made in small batches and my machine may have
been screwed up somehow. So maybe some of them actually work as advertised.

Has anyone done a WBC-type test with a Scace device on a single boiler E61?

shall?
--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


         
Date: 17 Dec 2006 23:27:15
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:46:44 GMT, Andy Schecter
<schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote:

>Lloyd Parsons wrote:
>> I was thinking of the Quick Mill Alexia.
>
>Perhaps this subject has been discussed in detail by someone who understands
>it better than I. But...
>
>I don't "get" the principle behind the single boiler E61. The E61 requires a
>loop of circulating H2O in order to operate as designed. They were built to be
>used with heat exchangers, where there is enough temperature differential
>(~60F?) to drive an effective thermosyphon.
>
>When you stick an E61 on a single boiler machine, you radically cut down on
>the temperature differential. Hot water just sits in the boiler, while cooler
>water gets cooler still, sitting in the group.
>
>I bought a Zaffiro and PIDed it, and the results were truly 'pitiful." Then
>again, the machines are probably made in small batches and my machine may have
>been screwed up somehow. So maybe some of them actually work as advertised.
>
>Has anyone done a WBC-type test with a Scace device on a single boiler E61?
>
>shall?

I last did a test a year ago. Not having a spare Fluke lying around, I
used a cheap K-type thermocouple, laid over the lip of a filter filled
with coffee, hooked up to an ultra-cheap multimeter. FWIW I pulled
several shots with an indicated (PID with internal probe) boiler
temperature of 101C after a 2-second flush. The multimeter, started at
89C (192.2F) for the first 5 seconds of the pulls and then rose to 90C
(194F). This was more than stable enough for me.

With more experience with the PID, I have since settled on a range
from 101C to 104.5C boiler temperature, depending on blend.

Wiser machine gurus than me have assured me the non-HX E-61's do have
a thermosyphon effect, though not as robust as with an HX. This makes
sense to me, as I normally keep my room temperature well below 101C.

I have been quite satisfied with my Zaffiro, but keep my eyes open new
developments.

shall "did you say GS3?"


          
Date: 17 Dec 2006 23:50:00
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
shall wrote:
> Wiser machine gurus than me

Which we know is a euphemism for "Michael says...." :)

--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


           
Date: 18 Dec 2006 03:50:10
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 23:50:00 GMT, Andy Schecter
<schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote:

>shall wrote:
>> Wiser machine gurus than me
>
>Which we know is a euphemism for "Michael says...." :)

No, I asked one of the speakers at one of the Homecomings (might have
been Richard Hourizadeh of Astra) and discussed it with one of the
Isomac people in Charlotte. As you know, Michael prefers HX machines,
and would not try to convince me to use a single boiler.

shall "also heard organic tofu causes herpes"


           
Date: 17 Dec 2006 18:11:56
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:IIkhh.8770$nq5.4133@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> shall wrote:
>> Wiser machine gurus than me
>
> Which we know is a euphemism for "Michael says...." :)
>
> --
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

or Angelo




          
Date: 17 Dec 2006 23:48:29
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
shall wrote:
> Wiser machine gurus than me have assured me the non-HX E-61's do have
> a thermosyphon effect, though not as robust as with an HX. This makes
> sense to me, as I normally keep my room temperature well below 101C.

On my Zaffiro, the inlet and outlet pipes aren't very spaced very far apart.
This would seem to lessen any thermosyphon effect. On some versions, perhaps
there is more distance 'twixt the two.

--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


    
Date: 16 Dec 2006 23:16:47
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Ken Fox wrote:
> maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
> competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for $750?
> Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
> common sense?

I wasn't aware of the current pricing. When I bought Silvia for $395, I
believe the low end HX machines (Livia, Giotto, etc) were $1000+.

-Andy S.


     
Date: 16 Dec 2006 23:59:41
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:16:47 GMT, Andy Schecter
<schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote:

>Ken Fox wrote:
>> maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
>> competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for $750?
>> Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
>> common sense?
>
>I wasn't aware of the current pricing. When I bought Silvia for $395, I
>believe the low end HX machines (Livia, Giotto, etc) were $1000+.
>
>-Andy S.

1st Line sells stock Silvias with bottomless pf and triple basket
thrown in for $495. $250 - 350 more for entry level HX is still a big
jump for most people moving up from a steam toy, especially if they
don't do milk..

shall


      
Date: 16 Dec 2006 19:36:24
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:4e19o2ls2ika147o1m1phkbbrubortliss@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:16:47 GMT, Andy Schecter
> <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Ken Fox wrote:
>>> maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
>>> competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for
>>> $750?
>>> Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
>>> common sense?
>>
>>I wasn't aware of the current pricing. When I bought Silvia for $395, I
>>believe the low end HX machines (Livia, Giotto, etc) were $1000+.
>>
>>-Andy S.
>
> 1st Line sells stock Silvias with bottomless pf and triple basket
> thrown in for $495. $250 - 350 more for entry level HX is still a big
> jump for most people moving up from a steam toy, especially if they
> don't do milk..
>
> shall

The price I quoted for a PID'd Silvia was what I saw on ebay from you know
who. I don't think it is far off the k from what it would cost an
individual to buy a Silvia at retail, buy the PID parts at retail and PID it
himself, unless the Chinese controller was used and in that case maybe the
total would be in the neighborhood of $625.

If you aren't going to PID a Silvia, then the price difference is about
$250, but my comparison was to a PID'd Silvia, not to a stock one, which
gives a difference of $50 or so to the Bezerra. Of course, with the
temperature swings of a stock Silvia, each shot is going to require
significant temperature surfing if one desires to make his espressos within
any reasonable range of temperature variance. Stepping up to a low end e-61
HX machine, around $1000 or less, would be $300 more than the PID'd Silvia,
and well worth the difference in my opinion.

ken




       
Date: 16 Dec 2006 20:50:02
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
In article <4ujop1F18hmioU1@mid.individual.net >,
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

> "shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:4e19o2ls2ika147o1m1phkbbrubortliss@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:16:47 GMT, Andy Schecter
> > <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Ken Fox wrote:
> >>> maybe it is just "obvious" that a PID'd Silvia for $699 isn't price
> >>> competitive with a low end HX machine such as the Bezerra BZ02S for
> >>> $750?
> >>> Maybe it doesn't require online psychoanalysis but rather a modicum of
> >>> common sense?
> >>
> >>I wasn't aware of the current pricing. When I bought Silvia for $395, I
> >>believe the low end HX machines (Livia, Giotto, etc) were $1000+.
> >>
> >>-Andy S.
> >
> > 1st Line sells stock Silvias with bottomless pf and triple basket
> > thrown in for $495. $250 - 350 more for entry level HX is still a big
> > jump for most people moving up from a steam toy, especially if they
> > don't do milk..
> >
> > shall
>
> The price I quoted for a PID'd Silvia was what I saw on ebay from you know
> who. I don't think it is far off the k from what it would cost an
> individual to buy a Silvia at retail, buy the PID parts at retail and PID it
> himself, unless the Chinese controller was used and in that case maybe the
> total would be in the neighborhood of $625.
>
> If you aren't going to PID a Silvia, then the price difference is about
> $250, but my comparison was to a PID'd Silvia, not to a stock one, which
> gives a difference of $50 or so to the Bezerra. Of course, with the
> temperature swings of a stock Silvia, each shot is going to require
> significant temperature surfing if one desires to make his espressos within
> any reasonable range of temperature variance. Stepping up to a low end e-61
> HX machine, around $1000 or less, would be $300 more than the PID'd Silvia,
> and well worth the difference in my opinion.
>
> ken

I wonder how the single boiler E61, Quick Mill Alexia does on temp
stability? it is $799.


 
Date: 15 Dec 2006 03:53:07
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Point well taken about the context of the group and the possibility to
consume all of its bandwidth with advertising. And, as I said, I
probably would have found Dave eventually through other means. Although
it's odd that it doesn't seem that ANYONE else is doing the mods or
selling the modified machine new, so I was happy to find him, however I
was able to. Does he have any competition in that part of the ket?

In terms of the Silvia being an over-rated machine, I pretty much
understood its limiations before I bought one but bought it anyway,
with the PID to make up for one of its key shortcomings. For the money,
I would have liked to get something like an Expobar Office Pulser or
one of the other less expensive HX machines. But I didn't for a simple
reason - counterspace. Silvia is between 10-11 inches deep. I can stick
it on the counter, under the cabinets, and still have plenty of usable
counterspace in front of it. And my wife barely noticed the difference
in footprint from the cheapie Saeco we had before. The Expobar and
every other HX machine I looked at was about 17 inches deep or more, is
also a bit taller, and wouldn't have worked in our kitchen without
giving the espresso machine FAR more prominance than the priy user
of the kitchen could live with. So based on counterspace and since I
don't often make more than one or two milk drinks at a time, the Silvia
or one of the Gaggias was the best choice for us (although the number
of people around this holiday season has provided me many opportunities
to practice going back and forth between steam and shot temps). If we
ever move to a place with more counterspace options (and I'll be
looking for that in a few years when we move out of this soon to be
empty nest), I may very well upgrade. I'd love to feature a big old
beautiful piece of industrial art and a grinder to boot more promiantly
in the kitchen, but it would kill the function of our current
configuration. It's ironic, though - one of the reasons I 'settled' for
the Silvia is the vast amount of knowledge available about it in places
like this. And, again, everyone has been incredibly helpful and I
greatly appreciate it.

And, finally, nope, I'm not Dave's alter-ego. I'm an actual living,
breathing individual who lives several states away from him. A
satisfied customer, to be sure, but I understand the variety of
feelings about him here.

-Ray Sachs
West Chester, PA


On Dec 15, 1:47 am, "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG...@Hotmail.com >
wrote:
> <mrf...@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:1166163009.247983.309870@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > That is why Usenet has a "netiquette." There are no police here to
> > exert society's vengeance on wrongdoers. Just an unenforceable
> > understanding among people who want to come to a non-commercial place
> > to discuss a subject that fascinates them. PID'd Silvias were born out
> > of discussions on this very newsgroup. There would be no PID
> > afterket business without them. And people like you would not be
> > looking for them, because they would not exist.
>
> > Those discussions have mostly migrated to moderated web forums. Guess
> > why.
>
> > shallAnd there's more. Considering how and why this thread began, it can't
> possibly sink to a lower level, so I'll throw out a bombshell. No doubt
> I'll be burned at the stake for it.
>
> The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
> price when it is placed where it belongs in the hierarchy of machines one
> might place in a home. Two or three years ago before all the price
> increases, it was a pretty good deal, but now? Especially if you spend the
> money to PID it, you have a machine that is simply overpriced for what it
> delivers, especially if the owner makes any percentage of milk drinks,
> because making milk drinks on a single boiler is a major league PITA. But
> the Silvia thermostat is so innacurate and has such a wide temperature band,
> that you basically HAVE to PID it unless you want to do some major league
> temperature surfing, for every shot.
>
> Even with a PID there is significant intrashot temperature variation.
> People here have documented it although they don't like to post about it,
> given the rah rah rah support the Silvia engenders here. It can't be any
> other way given the size of the boiler.
>
> Compare this with a lower end generic e-61 HX box, NOT modified, NOT PID'd.
> With simple temperature surfing techniques (Dan Kehn's "Water Dance" and
> others) one can have fairly reproducible shot temps with a little effort,
> and I'd be willing to bet almost certainly less intra-shot temperature
> variation. Add to this the functional superiority for steaming and making
> milk drinks, and you have a slam dunk for the low end e61 HX machine, at
> maybe only a hundred or a couple of hundred dollars more than a PID'd
> Silvia.
>
> Scads of people here have had Silvias, PID'd and otherwise, and many of them
> have moved on to other equipment. When was the last time you ever saw a
> post here entitled, "gosh, I wish I'd just stuck with the Silvia"? I know a
> number of people here who have moved on from the Silvia and they have no
> regrets about doing so. It is no panacea and it is no great bargain, at
> least anymore. Of course they won't post THAT, given the cult status of the
> Silvia on this ng.
>
> Alt Coffee luminaries like Greg Scace and Andy Schecter and Barry Jarrett
> played pivotal roles in applying the PID technology for use in espresso
> machines. Dave B has simply copied what others have done and tried to take
> credit for it himself.
>
> The idea of a PID'd Silvia was a good one several years back when other
> consumer level machines were much less available. In today's ket there
> are much better choices if one is looking at value for money. And you don't
> have to do anything to those other machines to make them easily usable with
> reasonable temperature stability.
>
> Consider that when you mull over your next equipment purchase.
>
> ken



 
Date: 14 Dec 2006 22:10:09
From:
Subject: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

ramboorider@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm new enough here not to know the whole history of Dave's interaction
> with the group and, if you have a firm rule about no advertising within
> the group, I can understand the annoyance. But think about it from the
> perspective of someone, like me, who: <snip>
> -Ray

Now think of it in a larger perspective. Coffee is one of the biggest
industries in the world. There are tens of thousands of coffee
businesses just in the U.S., and this is an international newsgroup. If
only 1% of the coffee people with something to sell, posted advertising
here, you would not be able to find any of the useful conversations
amid all the spam. Then no one would post except people offering
products and services, and the group would die.

That is why Usenet has a "netiquette." There are no police here to
exert society's vengeance on wrongdoers. Just an unenforceable
understanding among people who want to come to a non-commercial place
to discuss a subject that fascinates them. PID'd Silvias were born out
of discussions on this very newsgroup. There would be no PID
afterket business without them. And people like you would not be
looking for them, because they would not exist.

Those discussions have mostly migrated to moderated web forums. Guess
why.

shall



  
Date: 14 Dec 2006 23:47:01
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
<mrfuss@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:1166163009.247983.309870@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> That is why Usenet has a "netiquette." There are no police here to
> exert society's vengeance on wrongdoers. Just an unenforceable
> understanding among people who want to come to a non-commercial place
> to discuss a subject that fascinates them. PID'd Silvias were born out
> of discussions on this very newsgroup. There would be no PID
> afterket business without them. And people like you would not be
> looking for them, because they would not exist.
>
> Those discussions have mostly migrated to moderated web forums. Guess
> why.
>
> shall
>

And there's more. Considering how and why this thread began, it can't
possibly sink to a lower level, so I'll throw out a bombshell. No doubt
I'll be burned at the stake for it.

The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
price when it is placed where it belongs in the hierarchy of machines one
might place in a home. Two or three years ago before all the price
increases, it was a pretty good deal, but now? Especially if you spend the
money to PID it, you have a machine that is simply overpriced for what it
delivers, especially if the owner makes any percentage of milk drinks,
because making milk drinks on a single boiler is a major league PITA. But
the Silvia thermostat is so innacurate and has such a wide temperature band,
that you basically HAVE to PID it unless you want to do some major league
temperature surfing, for every shot.

Even with a PID there is significant intrashot temperature variation.
People here have documented it although they don't like to post about it,
given the rah rah rah support the Silvia engenders here. It can't be any
other way given the size of the boiler.

Compare this with a lower end generic e-61 HX box, NOT modified, NOT PID'd.
With simple temperature surfing techniques (Dan Kehn's "Water Dance" and
others) one can have fairly reproducible shot temps with a little effort,
and I'd be willing to bet almost certainly less intra-shot temperature
variation. Add to this the functional superiority for steaming and making
milk drinks, and you have a slam dunk for the low end e61 HX machine, at
maybe only a hundred or a couple of hundred dollars more than a PID'd
Silvia.

Scads of people here have had Silvias, PID'd and otherwise, and many of them
have moved on to other equipment. When was the last time you ever saw a
post here entitled, "gosh, I wish I'd just stuck with the Silvia"? I know a
number of people here who have moved on from the Silvia and they have no
regrets about doing so. It is no panacea and it is no great bargain, at
least anymore. Of course they won't post THAT, given the cult status of the
Silvia on this ng.

Alt Coffee luminaries like Greg Scace and Andy Schecter and Barry Jarrett
played pivotal roles in applying the PID technology for use in espresso
machines. Dave B has simply copied what others have done and tried to take
credit for it himself.

The idea of a PID'd Silvia was a good one several years back when other
consumer level machines were much less available. In today's ket there
are much better choices if one is looking at value for money. And you don't
have to do anything to those other machines to make them easily usable with
reasonable temperature stability.

Consider that when you mull over your next equipment purchase.

ken




   
Date: 16 Dec 2006 13:23:34
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Ken Fox wrote:
> I'll throw out a bombshell. No doubt
> I'll be burned at the stake for it.
>
> The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
> price

<snip >

> Even with a PID there is significant intrashot temperature variation.


Bombshell? Surely you exaggerate.

There's a reason why I put 3 separate PID loops and a whole lot of plumbing
modifications into my Silvia. A single PID was helpful, but it didn't get the
job done.

At this point I have a machine that is about as temp stable as any machine in
the world. AND it fits under my kitchen cabinets, which are a mere 13" off the
countertop. Of course, this "machine" sprawls over three feet of the counter!


As far as burning you at the stake goes, we're still thinking about it. :-)




--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


    
Date: 16 Dec 2006 22:23:39
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
>Ken Fox wrote:

> I'll throw out a bombshell. No doubt
> I'll be burned at the stake for it.
>
> The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
> price

This won't thread properly, because Earthlink's Usenet server has lost
a week of postings. But, I'm responding to Ken's post above.

I think there are still sound reasons to buy a Silvia for someone who
rarely makes more than one or two milk drinks at a time, and
especially for someone who only makes straight espressos.

1. A strong reputation for reliability.
2. The wealth of maintenance and tinkering information available on
the Internet.
3. As with other non-HX machines, no need to plumb the machine in,
because no extended flushing is required to adjust temperature.

shall


   
Date: 15 Dec 2006 09:24:08
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Sacrilege! You have spoken against the sacred Silvia. Blasphemer!

Seriously, the Silvia is still a good machine if your priy focus is
straight shots and even without PID the surfing technique is not impossible
to master. The current price does put you within shootin' distance of a
full blown HX machine, but as we have seen there are other considerations -
styling, counter space, etc.


If you expect to prepare milk drinks regularly, any single boiler, Silvia
included, is a kludge. I also value having a 24/7 machine, which means
something with autofill. No startup routine each morning and a constant
source of "on demand" steam that has a million uses around the kitchen. It's
like the difference in convenience between having a water tap in your
kitchen vs. fetching water from the well.

"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@Hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4ueun6F17uq7aU1@mid.individual.net...
> <mrfuss@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1166163009.247983.309870@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> That is why Usenet has a "netiquette." There are no police here to
>> exert society's vengeance on wrongdoers. Just an unenforceable
>> understanding among people who want to come to a non-commercial place
>> to discuss a subject that fascinates them. PID'd Silvias were born out
>> of discussions on this very newsgroup. There would be no PID
>> afterket business without them. And people like you would not be
>> looking for them, because they would not exist.
>>
>> Those discussions have mostly migrated to moderated web forums. Guess
>> why.
>>
>> shall
>>
>
> And there's more. Considering how and why this thread began, it can't
> possibly sink to a lower level, so I'll throw out a bombshell. No doubt
> I'll be burned at the stake for it.
>
> The Silvia is a hugely overrated machine that is not *worth* its current
> price when it is placed where it belongs in the hierarchy of machines one
> might place in a home. Two or three years ago before all the price
> increases, it was a pretty good deal, but now? Especially if you spend
> the money to PID it, you have a machine that is simply overpriced for what
> it delivers, especially if the owner makes any percentage of milk drinks,
> because making milk drinks on a single boiler is a major league PITA. But
> the Silvia thermostat is so innacurate and has such a wide temperature
> band, that you basically HAVE to PID it unless you want to do some major
> league temperature surfing, for every shot.
>
> Even with a PID there is significant intrashot temperature variation.
> People here have documented it although they don't like to post about it,
> given the rah rah rah support the Silvia engenders here. It can't be any
> other way given the size of the boiler.
>
> Compare this with a lower end generic e-61 HX box, NOT modified, NOT
> PID'd. With simple temperature surfing techniques (Dan Kehn's "Water
> Dance" and others) one can have fairly reproducible shot temps with a
> little effort, and I'd be willing to bet almost certainly less intra-shot
> temperature variation. Add to this the functional superiority for
> steaming and making milk drinks, and you have a slam dunk for the low end
> e61 HX machine, at maybe only a hundred or a couple of hundred dollars
> more than a PID'd Silvia.
>
> Scads of people here have had Silvias, PID'd and otherwise, and many of
> them have moved on to other equipment. When was the last time you ever
> saw a post here entitled, "gosh, I wish I'd just stuck with the Silvia"?
> I know a number of people here who have moved on from the Silvia and they
> have no regrets about doing so. It is no panacea and it is no great
> bargain, at least anymore. Of course they won't post THAT, given the cult
> status of the Silvia on this ng.
>
> Alt Coffee luminaries like Greg Scace and Andy Schecter and Barry Jarrett
> played pivotal roles in applying the PID technology for use in espresso
> machines. Dave B has simply copied what others have done and tried to
> take credit for it himself.
>
> The idea of a PID'd Silvia was a good one several years back when other
> consumer level machines were much less available. In today's ket there
> are much better choices if one is looking at value for money. And you
> don't have to do anything to those other machines to make them easily
> usable with reasonable temperature stability.
>
> Consider that when you mull over your next equipment purchase.
>
> ken
>
>




 
Date: 13 Dec 2006 04:04:44
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
I'm new enough here not to know the whole history of Dave's interaction
with the group and, if you have a firm rule about no advertising within
the group, I can understand the annoyance. But think about it from the
perspective of someone, like me, who:

* wanted to buy a Silvia because it seemed like the best machine I
could get in my price range and in my counterspace envelope (those HX
machines are DEEP!)
* wanted it with a PID because, from what I'd read, a PID would
overcome the Silvia's main limitation and I wanted to make it as easy
as possible to learn
* didn't want to do it myself (the whole espresso thing is new enough
to me to not want to get under the hood right away)

I did a web search and found this group, among other stuff. One of the
things I saw *before* I read about the history of the most recent small
world war was one of Dave's mentions that he actually sells Silvias
with PIDs installed. As far as I could tell, others would sell you a
kit but he was the only one to offer to do the install or sell you the
new machine with the PID installed. I was quickly routed to his EBAY
site where I saw all of his products and his positive feedback. I
called him and he was very helpful and seemed like a good guy on the
phone. So I ordered a Silvia/Rocky setup from him. It arrived as
promised and has worked very well. I've called Dave a couple of times
with follow-up questions and he's been very helpful and is STILL a good
guy on the phone.

I probably would have eventually found Dave without Alt.coffee, but the
fact is I found him here. He provides a service that I was looking for.
His initial postings here tend to be short and informative and send you
to his commercial site. The more involved and contentious stuff seems
to be in response to the abuse heaped on him each time he posts that
he's offering something new. I suspect if you'd just ignore his posts,
they'd do his intended job of reaching potential clients like me and
not disrupt the group. When someone jumps on his case every time he
posts an advert, then it tends to spiral into the depths pretty quickly
and the whole mess is best avoided.

I hesitate to defend Dave publicly and I sure don't want to PO the rest
of you because I've learned more from the rest of you than I have from
Dave and you all have been really good and helpful when I and other
newbies have posted questions. But, hey, he provides a valuable service
to a lot of folks, some of whom can best find him here. And he's far
from the only one who uses the group that way.

I'm sure that some of the bad blood that's developed over the years is
hard to ignore and I'm sure Dave's done his share to bring it on, but
to an observer it all seems pretty silly.

-Ray



  
Date: 14 Dec 2006 10:15:48
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
I tend to be silent on the subject of Dave - I kill filed him a long time
ago and for the most part just ignore him. I'm not one who takes part in
the constant squabbles with him, because it's just not worth it. But, here
are a few point to consider:

1. alt.coffee is a non-commercial group and advertising (aka spamming) is
not permitted. Dave well knows this but persists anyway. There are many
people who offer valuable services that others may be looking for, but that
doesn't entitle them to advertise on non-commercial usenet groups.

2. Dave seem to have a real schizophrenic personality - as a businessman,
most people have only nice things to say about him. But here on alt.coffee,
he seems liberated to vent his spleen - maybe he lets go all of the bottled
up anger he accumulates being nice to people on the phone or maybe the lack
of face/voice contact loosens his inhibitions (or maybe he gets on the
keyboard in the evening after a few/six beers - this has been known to give
people Jeckyl/Hyde type personalities). Maybe he's just one of those people
who is technically very competent but totally lacking in social skills. He
seems to go out of his way here to make nasty comments - he has even
intentionally bitten people who have extended the hand of friendship to him.
I'm not a shrink so I can't say why he does this but he does and he has been
a major contributor to the decline of this group (and trust me - it has
declined).

3. Dave's objectivity as a poster seems to be questionable. If it is
something that he does in his business, it's great. If it isn't, it's
terrible. Whatever brand of PID he uses is the best. All the others are
junk. He maintained that PID'ing Hx machines was a total waste of time,
until he started doing PID HX installations in his business, and then they
were the best thing since sliced bread. Etc. There are (or once upon a time
were - Mr. B seems to have driven many away) people here with far more
experience who are willing to offer objective advice even if it goes against
there commercial interest, but you should regard Dave's advice in the
context of what's best for his business.





<ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166011484.406531.172960@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>
> I probably would have eventually found Dave without Alt.coffee, but the
> fact is I found him here. He provides a service that I was looking for.
> His initial postings here tend to be short and informative and send you
> to his commercial site. The more involved and contentious stuff seems
> to be in response to the abuse heaped on him each time he posts that
> he's offering something new. I suspect if you'd just ignore his posts,
> they'd do his intended job of reaching potential clients like me and
> not disrupt the group. When someone jumps on his case every time he
> posts an advert, then it tends to spiral into the depths pretty quickly
> and the whole mess is best avoided.
>
> I hesitate to defend Dave publicly and I sure don't want to PO the rest
> of you because I've learned more from the rest of you than I have from
> Dave and you all have been really good and helpful when I and other
> newbies have posted questions. But, hey, he provides a valuable service
> to a lot of folks, some of whom can best find him here. And he's far
> from the only one who uses the group that way.
>
> I'm sure that some of the bad blood that's developed over the years is
> hard to ignore and I'm sure Dave's done his share to bring it on, but
> to an observer it all seems pretty silly.
>
> -Ray
>




   
Date: 16 Dec 2006 13:21:01
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re:
In <Nf2dnbGb35s49xzYnZ2dnUVZ_rqhnZ2d@comcast.com >, on Thu, 14 Dec 2006
10:15:48 -0500, Jack Denver wrote:
> I tend to be silent on the subject of Dave - I kill filed him a long time
> ago and for the most part just ignore him.

Same here.

> I'm not a shrink so I can't say why he does this but he does and he has been
> a major contributor to the decline of this group (and trust me - it has
> declined).

I used to check in several times a day, and even
made it a point to read every post. I now check in
much less frequently, and delete entire threads unread.
alt.coffee has definitely declined and your attribution
of that effect is dead on.



   
Date: 15 Dec 2006 23:11:32
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>I tend to be silent on the subject of Dave - I kill filed him a long time
>ago and for the most part just ignore him. I'm not one who takes part in
>the constant squabbles with him, because it's just not worth it. But, here
>are a few point to consider:
>

I will relent from posting the list of aliases he has used and his
rude comments, but I will allow Maddy to speak for us:

Madeleine "'spammage is damage' is my motto" Page
[and actual 'internym' from one of her postings]


Randy "the whole world is his toilet" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




 
Date: 13 Dec 2006 02:36:13
From: Jasonian
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

RockyRacoon02@gmail.com wrote:
> It's very interesting that Robert Harmon, Roughjaw, and others go on
> obnoxious diatribes everytime daveb makes an innocuous post, but they
> fail to respond to posts like "Free Starbucks 4U". I find the juvenile
> attacks on daveb's character very disturbing, and I really think that
> they significantly bring down the quality of this group. I have no
> respect for people that try to deface a person's character on an
> internet user group, and find it quite cowardly. People like this
> really shouldn't belong on this forum, and remind me of two year-old
> toddlers that cry and scream when they don't get their way, or for that
> matter, 12 year olds who still wet their beds (IOWs- very juvenile, and
> probably w/lots of unresolved issues from childhood that remain yet (if
> ever) to be resolved). I ask anyone who makes abnoxious posts in
> response to daveb to please, next time daveb makes a post, show atleast
> as much restraint as a 22 year-old, and just don't respond. If you have
> personal problems, release the steam (or seek help) somewhere else
> other than this potentially great list. My two cents....
I concur. I find the complaints and accusations of spam to be closer
to the canned meat than the accused.

Quite annoying to sift through all that BS just to get get to the topic.



  
Date: 13 Dec 2006 10:15:47
From: Cliff Heller
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
"Jasonian" <jason.haeger@gmail.com > writes:

>
> Quite annoying to sift through all that BS just to get get to the topic.

Get a real newsreader and implement a kill file.


--
"Letters may be used to construct words, phrases and sentences that may be
deemed offensive."
-Warning label on children's alphabet blocks


 
Date: 12 Dec 2006 22:40:08
From:
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
It's very interesting that Robert Harmon, Roughjaw, and others go on
obnoxious diatribes everytime daveb makes an innocuous post, but they
fail to respond to posts like "Free Starbucks 4U". I find the juvenile
attacks on daveb's character very disturbing, and I really think that
they significantly bring down the quality of this group. I have no
respect for people that try to deface a person's character on an
internet user group, and find it quite cowardly. People like this
really shouldn't belong on this forum, and remind me of two year-old
toddlers that cry and scream when they don't get their way, or for that
matter, 12 year olds who still wet their beds (IOWs- very juvenile, and
probably w/lots of unresolved issues from childhood that remain yet (if
ever) to be resolved). I ask anyone who makes abnoxious posts in
response to daveb to please, next time daveb makes a post, show atleast
as much restraint as a 22 year-old, and just don't respond. If you have
personal problems, release the steam (or seek help) somewhere else
other than this potentially great list. My two cents....



  
Date: 18 Dec 2006 11:07:48
From: daveb
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
killfiled?

do not grieve -- but celebrate!

dave

Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Ought I to grieve at being killfiled?
>
> ROFLMAO



  
Date: 18 Dec 2006 10:42:53
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Ken Fox wrote:
If you post
> attempts to psychoanalyze me, or attribute motives to me, I'll either ignore
> them or if they accumulate I'll killfile you.

Oh, but Ken, when you hand me such opportunities it is hard to resist.


Ought I to grieve at being killfiled?

ROFLMAO



   
Date: 18 Dec 2006 11:45:36
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166467373.265605.163650@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ken Fox wrote:
> If you post
>> attempts to psychoanalyze me, or attribute motives to me, I'll either
>> ignore
>> them or if they accumulate I'll killfile you.
>
> Oh, but Ken, when you hand me such opportunities it is hard to resist.
>
>
> Ought I to grieve at being killfiled?
>
> ROFLMAO
>

I don't expect to do it and if I did, it would be strictly for my own
convenience.




  
Date: 13 Dec 2006 07:45:51
From:
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On 12 Dec 2006 22:40:08 -0800, RockyRacoon02@gmail.com wrote:

>It's very interesting that Robert Harmon, Roughjaw, and others go on
>obnoxious diatribes everytime daveb makes an innocuous post, but they
>fail to respond to posts like "Free Starbucks 4U". I find the juvenile
>attacks on daveb's character very disturbing, and I really think that
>they significantly bring down the quality of this group. I have no
>respect for people that try to deface a person's character on an
>internet user group, and find it quite cowardly. People like this
>really shouldn't belong on this forum, and remind me of two year-old
>toddlers that cry and scream when they don't get their way, or for that
>matter, 12 year olds who still wet their beds (IOWs- very juvenile, and
>probably w/lots of unresolved issues from childhood that remain yet (if
>ever) to be resolved). I ask anyone who makes abnoxious posts in
>response to daveb to please, next time daveb makes a post, show atleast
>as much restraint as a 22 year-old, and just don't respond. If you have
>personal problems, release the steam (or seek help) somewhere else
>other than this potentially great list. My two cents....


A bit of history: Randall the G has been bashing dave from his very
first post here. The Geeman went off on a diatribe about spammers,
thinly disguising his discontent with others shilling goods here which
he considers his own turf.

Fact is, and I've made it many times, there is no alt.coffee charter.
In the absence of a charter, there is nothing that prohibits brief,
discreet, on-topic posts noting goods and services of interest to the
group. Dave certainly qualifies. But Randall never fails to pick up
his cudgel and do his Dave-bashing thing. Dave, to his credit, never
let the Geeman beat him down. Others have chosen to go away, which, I
suppose, empowers His Pettiness, and makes Dave's tenacity so
frustrating to him.One day he'll figure out that he does not own
alt.coffee.

Harmon, on the other hand, is simply a fool who jumps on the
bandwagon.

Pity, actually, to have to see this continual pettiness.














_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


   
Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:14:48
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

<Roque Ja > wrote in message
news:2k70o2p19k7ho9vseg66c4aulbrcjgdu4r@4ax.com...
<schnip / >
>
> Fact is, and I've made it many times, there is no alt.coffee charter.
> In the absence of a charter, there is nothing that prohibits brief,
> discreet, on-topic posts noting goods and services of interest to the
> group.

It is true that the alt hierarchy has no prohibition in this regard,
however, whilst there is no alt.coffee charter there are, as you well know,
usenet guidelines such as:
ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1

the relevent part of which is IMO:

"
Similarly, it's considered bad manners to put an advertisement in your
.signature and then post a lot of empty or nearly-empty articles simply
to get your .signature into various newsgroups.

On the other hand, if you post meaningful, responsible messages in groups
you're actually interested in, and those messages happen to have the
address of your Web page tacked on at the end, few people will complain.


"

There are and have been many posters here with commercial coffee interests
who refrain from pushing their business here.
For that I thank and applaud them.




 
Date: 12 Dec 2006 22:26:14
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Roque wrote:

> It's stupid to criticize others because they don't enjoy the same time
> wasters you do. Particularly when there is no societal downside to not
> playing them

Most do, though, statistically speaking from abstract trends. People
pay $6-9K per annum
to drive vehicles, exclusive of insurance and maintenace. Plumbers,
painters, mechanics, electricians -- and a good deal of what is deemed
menial, inclusive of technical understanding -- are increasingly
avoided. Good deals need not necessarily be, hence a higher labor rate
has ensued, and an emphasis over increased multiplicity evolved from
outsourced technicians. Of course there's societal downside.
Domesticity devalues relative to comparable worth poised in foreign
assets to supply demand in competitive fashion over the playing field.
Notice the trickle-down effect from the rows above in the surrounding
auditorium. Those that do play, most by means and discretion largely to
do so, are representative of an upper echelon, a microeconomical
disproportionate closely seated by greater sums over means encompassing
a distributive wealth skew. Neither, in my humble estimation, are they
a people readily ignorned from a cross-skew affect, influence realizes
from the common-ground denominator indicative of propriety in the most
general sense. It is not without consideration cause effects, since
WW2, that means are increasingly taken as synonymous to ends, within an
immediacy of debt over historical savings trends amply will illustrate.



  
Date: 13 Dec 2006 08:52:19
From:
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On 12 Dec 2006 22:26:14 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote:

>Roque wrote:
>
>> It's stupid to criticize others because they don't enjoy the same time
>> wasters you do. Particularly when there is no societal downside to not
>> playing them
>
>Most do, though, statistically speaking from abstract trends. People
>pay $6-9K per annum
>to drive vehicles, exclusive of insurance and maintenace. Plumbers,
>painters, mechanics, electricians -- and a good deal of what is deemed
>menial, inclusive of technical understanding -- are increasingly
>avoided. Good deals need not necessarily be, hence a higher labor rate
>has ensued, and an emphasis over increased multiplicity evolved from
>outsourced technicians. Of course there's societal downside.
>Domesticity devalues relative to comparable worth poised in foreign
>assets to supply demand in competitive fashion over the playing field.
>Notice the trickle-down effect from the rows above in the surrounding
>auditorium. Those that do play, most by means and discretion largely to
>do so, are representative of an upper echelon, a microeconomical
>disproportionate closely seated by greater sums over means encompassing
>a distributive wealth skew. Neither, in my humble estimation, are they
>a people readily ignorned from a cross-skew affect, influence realizes
>from the common-ground denominator indicative of propriety in the most
>general sense. It is not without consideration cause effects, since
>WW2, that means are increasingly taken as synonymous to ends, within an
>immediacy of debt over historical savings trends amply will illustrate.


You know, your posts are starting to make sense to me. Not sure what
that says about either of us. Kinda scary though.






 
Date: 13 Dec 2006 03:02:22
From: RoughJaw
Subject: Re: I'll spam even more
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:38:26 -0800, daveb wrote:

> After the first of the year [too busy right now] --
>
> Feel free to write / call with any questions!

When will you stop spamming?

> Thanks

For?

> Dave
> 187
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODshB09FQ8w

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 12 Dec 2006 18:40:00
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
I believe you missed my point altogether. If enough people take the
conversion on themselves Dave MIGHT get the message that his
self-promotion in this newsgroup is hurting his business.

Robert (Go for the rice bowl if nothing else works.) Harmon


Roque wrote:
> On 12 Dec 2006 17:27:16 -0800, "Randy G." <frcn@cncnet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Robert Harmon wrote:
> >> Or maybe...
> >> They can do it themselves for about $65 & 4-5 hours. If we had more
> >> do-it-yourselfers we could get rid of of this self-promoting loser.
> >>
> >> Robert (It's worth a try.) Harmon
> >>
> >
> >And if ypu choose to DIY, there is a ton of help available:
> >-ask for assistance here on alt.coffee
> >-numerous websites with lots of info (there is a list of links on my
> >site, and if anyone has any others that need to be included, please
> >send them long).
> >-MLG has a do it yourself kit that comes with an AWESOME set of
> >instructions that take you through the installation, step by step. If
> >you are familiar with basic hand tools you will be able to install this
> >kit.
> >The benefit of all the above is twofold:
> >-You don't have to spend the money for shipping your machine, and no
> >worry about your espresso machine being damaged in shipment
> >-You will learn a lot about your espresso machine making future repairs
> >a lot easier.
> >
> >..not to mention the satisfaction of doing it yourself
> >
> > Randy "did it twice" G.
> >httop://www/EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
> On the other hand: If you have someone do it, it will get done. From
> what I can tell of Dave's references, it will get done well and on
> time.
>
> There are those among us who actually work for a living and can think
> of more satisfying ways to spend precious free time than risking an
> electrical mishap with expensive equipment. Dave continues to provide
> a well regarded service for the DYI-impaired.
>
> Some folks change their own oil. Others take their cars to a qualified
> service person. Some clean their own toilets. Others have
> housekeepers. Just depends on what's more important to you. I let the
> grease jockeys change my oil and have a wonderful housekeeper come in
> once a week. I could do either myself but this arrangement keeps me
> happier and they seem to like the business. Of course, I'd never
> consider spending money on an RV; I'd much rather stay in a hotel.
> Some, I'm told, actually get pleasure out of driving these grotesque
> fossil-fuel greenhouse-gas-emitters around the country. No accounting,
> huh?
>
> It's stupid to criticize others because they don't enjoy the same time
> wasters you do. Particularly when there is no societal downside to not
> playing them (unlike, say, driving an RV around our highways). But,
> then again, what can you expect from Bob and Randall, the smugsy twins
> of alt.coffee?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.



  
Date: 13 Dec 2006 02:45:05
From: Alan
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1165977600.181057.43730@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>I believe you missed my point altogether. If enough people take the
> conversion on themselves Dave MIGHT get the message that his
> self-promotion in this newsgroup is hurting his business.
>
> Robert (Go for the rice bowl if nothing else works.) Harmon

You seem to missed Roque's point . . .
>
>
> Roque wrote:
>> On 12 Dec 2006 17:27:16 -0800, "Randy G." <frcn@cncnet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Robert Harmon wrote:
>> >> Or maybe...
>> >> They can do it themselves for about $65 & 4-5 hours. If we had more
>> >> do-it-yourselfers we could get rid of of this self-promoting loser.
>> >>
>> >> Robert (It's worth a try.) Harmon
>> >>
>> >
>> >And if ypu choose to DIY, there is a ton of help available:
>> >-ask for assistance here on alt.coffee
>> >-numerous websites with lots of info (there is a list of links on my
>> >site, and if anyone has any others that need to be included, please
>> >send them long).
>> >-MLG has a do it yourself kit that comes with an AWESOME set of
>> >instructions that take you through the installation, step by step. If
>> >you are familiar with basic hand tools you will be able to install this
>> >kit.
>> >The benefit of all the above is twofold:
>> >-You don't have to spend the money for shipping your machine, and no
>> >worry about your espresso machine being damaged in shipment
>> >-You will learn a lot about your espresso machine making future repairs
>> >a lot easier.
>> >
>> >..not to mention the satisfaction of doing it yourself
>> >
>> > Randy "did it twice" G.
>> >httop://www/EspressoMyEspresso.com
>>
>>
>> On the other hand: If you have someone do it, it will get done. From
>> what I can tell of Dave's references, it will get done well and on
>> time.
>>
>> There are those among us who actually work for a living and can think
>> of more satisfying ways to spend precious free time than risking an
>> electrical mishap with expensive equipment. Dave continues to provide
>> a well regarded service for the DYI-impaired.
>>
>> Some folks change their own oil. Others take their cars to a qualified
>> service person. Some clean their own toilets. Others have
>> housekeepers. Just depends on what's more important to you. I let the
>> grease jockeys change my oil and have a wonderful housekeeper come in
>> once a week. I could do either myself but this arrangement keeps me
>> happier and they seem to like the business. Of course, I'd never
>> consider spending money on an RV; I'd much rather stay in a hotel.
>> Some, I'm told, actually get pleasure out of driving these grotesque
>> fossil-fuel greenhouse-gas-emitters around the country. No accounting,
>> huh?
>>
>> It's stupid to criticize others because they don't enjoy the same time
>> wasters you do. Particularly when there is no societal downside to not
>> playing them (unlike, say, driving an RV around our highways). But,
>> then again, what can you expect from Bob and Randall, the smugsy twins
>> of alt.coffee?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________
>> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
>> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
>> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
>> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
>




   
Date: 13 Dec 2006 02:52:05
From: Alan
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:ROJfh.7348$Ga1.1180@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1165977600.181057.43730@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>>I believe you missed my point altogether. If enough people take the
>> conversion on themselves Dave MIGHT get the message that his
>> self-promotion in this newsgroup is hurting his business.
>>
>> Robert (Go for the rice bowl if nothing else works.) Harmon
>
> You seem to missed Roque's point . . .

oops ---- correction: You seem to have missed Roque's point . . .
>>
>>
>> Roque wrote:
>>> On 12 Dec 2006 17:27:16 -0800, "Randy G." <frcn@cncnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >Robert Harmon wrote:
>>> >> Or maybe...
>>> >> They can do it themselves for about $65 & 4-5 hours. If we had more
>>> >> do-it-yourselfers we could get rid of of this self-promoting loser.
>>> >>
>>> >> Robert (It's worth a try.) Harmon
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >And if ypu choose to DIY, there is a ton of help available:
>>> >-ask for assistance here on alt.coffee
>>> >-numerous websites with lots of info (there is a list of links on my
>>> >site, and if anyone has any others that need to be included, please
>>> >send them long).
>>> >-MLG has a do it yourself kit that comes with an AWESOME set of
>>> >instructions that take you through the installation, step by step. If
>>> >you are familiar with basic hand tools you will be able to install this
>>> >kit.
>>> >The benefit of all the above is twofold:
>>> >-You don't have to spend the money for shipping your machine, and no
>>> >worry about your espresso machine being damaged in shipment
>>> >-You will learn a lot about your espresso machine making future repairs
>>> >a lot easier.
>>> >
>>> >..not to mention the satisfaction of doing it yourself
>>> >
>>> > Randy "did it twice" G.
>>> >httop://www/EspressoMyEspresso.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand: If you have someone do it, it will get done. From
>>> what I can tell of Dave's references, it will get done well and on
>>> time.
>>>
>>> There are those among us who actually work for a living and can think
>>> of more satisfying ways to spend precious free time than risking an
>>> electrical mishap with expensive equipment. Dave continues to provide
>>> a well regarded service for the DYI-impaired.
>>>
>>> Some folks change their own oil. Others take their cars to a qualified
>>> service person. Some clean their own toilets. Others have
>>> housekeepers. Just depends on what's more important to you. I let the
>>> grease jockeys change my oil and have a wonderful housekeeper come in
>>> once a week. I could do either myself but this arrangement keeps me
>>> happier and they seem to like the business. Of course, I'd never
>>> consider spending money on an RV; I'd much rather stay in a hotel.
>>> Some, I'm told, actually get pleasure out of driving these grotesque
>>> fossil-fuel greenhouse-gas-emitters around the country. No accounting,
>>> huh?
>>>
>>> It's stupid to criticize others because they don't enjoy the same time
>>> wasters you do. Particularly when there is no societal downside to not
>>> playing them (unlike, say, driving an RV around our highways). But,
>>> then again, what can you expect from Bob and Randall, the smugsy twins
>>> of alt.coffee?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________
>>> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
>>> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
>>> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
>>> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
>>
>
>




 
Date: 12 Dec 2006 17:46:57
From: daveb
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
AFAIK, no "kits" out there for Gaggia.

or quick mill or isomac, etc.

Dave
877 286 2833



 
Date: 12 Dec 2006 17:27:16
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

Robert Harmon wrote:
> Or maybe...
> They can do it themselves for about $65 & 4-5 hours. If we had more
> do-it-yourselfers we could get rid of of this self-promoting loser.
>
> Robert (It's worth a try.) Harmon
>

And if ypu choose to DIY, there is a ton of help available:
-ask for assistance here on alt.coffee
-numerous websites with lots of info (there is a list of links on my
site, and if anyone has any others that need to be included, please
send them long).
-MLG has a do it yourself kit that comes with an AWESOME set of
instructions that take you through the installation, step by step. If
you are familiar with basic hand tools you will be able to install this
kit.
The benefit of all the above is twofold:
-You don't have to spend the money for shipping your machine, and no
worry about your espresso machine being damaged in shipment
-You will learn a lot about your espresso machine making future repairs
a lot easier.

..not to mention the satisfaction of doing it yourself

Randy "did it twice" G.
httop://www/EspressoMyEspresso.com



  
Date: 12 Dec 2006 17:50:29
From:
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
On 12 Dec 2006 17:27:16 -0800, "Randy G." <frcn@cncnet.com > wrote:

>
>Robert Harmon wrote:
>> Or maybe...
>> They can do it themselves for about $65 & 4-5 hours. If we had more
>> do-it-yourselfers we could get rid of of this self-promoting loser.
>>
>> Robert (It's worth a try.) Harmon
>>
>
>And if ypu choose to DIY, there is a ton of help available:
>-ask for assistance here on alt.coffee
>-numerous websites with lots of info (there is a list of links on my
>site, and if anyone has any others that need to be included, please
>send them long).
>-MLG has a do it yourself kit that comes with an AWESOME set of
>instructions that take you through the installation, step by step. If
>you are familiar with basic hand tools you will be able to install this
>kit.
>The benefit of all the above is twofold:
>-You don't have to spend the money for shipping your machine, and no
>worry about your espresso machine being damaged in shipment
>-You will learn a lot about your espresso machine making future repairs
>a lot easier.
>
>..not to mention the satisfaction of doing it yourself
>
> Randy "did it twice" G.
>httop://www/EspressoMyEspresso.com


On the other hand: If you have someone do it, it will get done. From
what I can tell of Dave's references, it will get done well and on
time.

There are those among us who actually work for a living and can think
of more satisfying ways to spend precious free time than risking an
electrical mishap with expensive equipment. Dave continues to provide
a well regarded service for the DYI-impaired.

Some folks change their own oil. Others take their cars to a qualified
service person. Some clean their own toilets. Others have
housekeepers. Just depends on what's more important to you. I let the
grease jockeys change my oil and have a wonderful housekeeper come in
once a week. I could do either myself but this arrangement keeps me
happier and they seem to like the business. Of course, I'd never
consider spending money on an RV; I'd much rather stay in a hotel.
Some, I'm told, actually get pleasure out of driving these grotesque
fossil-fuel greenhouse-gas-emitters around the country. No accounting,
huh?

It's stupid to criticize others because they don't enjoy the same time
wasters you do. Particularly when there is no societal downside to not
playing them (unlike, say, driving an RV around our highways). But,
then again, what can you expect from Bob and Randall, the smugsy twins
of alt.coffee?








_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


 
Date: 12 Dec 2006 16:20:16
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
Or maybe...
They can do it themselves for about $65 & 4-5 hours. If we had more
do-it-yourselfers we could get rid of of this self-promoting loser.

Robert (It's worth a try.) Harmon

daveb wrote:
> After the first of the year [too busy right now] -- Most metal cased
> Gaggias WILL be eligible for my 'pid' mod.
>
> Feel free to write / call with any questions!
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dave
> 187
> www.hitechespresso.com



  
Date: 17 Dec 2006 11:25:55
From: daveb
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias

In my conversations -- and email dialogs --with many customers and/or
prospects (say, oh, 150 in the last 4 months), many do NOT make a "lot
of milk drinks" (BTW very few are ng users)

Some need the option, -- for entertaining -- but others could care
less.
They want espresso, made well, and dependably consistent.

For that a single boiler machine is excellent. We already know the
names and makes and options for said machines.

I apologize in advance.

Dave
877 286 2833 toll free



  
Date: 17 Dec 2006 03:18:48
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
ramboorider@gmail.com wrote:
> Except that the initial comparison between a $495 Silvia and a
> $750-$800 HX machine - it was between about $700 for a Silvia with PID
> and those same HX machine. If you assume that a PID is highly
> desirable, if not absolutely necessary, to make the Silvia competitive,
> the rationale for the HX gets stronger. Unless there are other
> concerns, like my issue with counter space, in which case the Silvia
> may still make a lot of sense if you don't need to make a lot of milk
> drinks.

HX, and then some, and so on. While anything less isn't worth that
emphatic a suck for others, even if distanced from any practical
intent present value by in large poses. Still, there's an appreciable
precision in raising the bar for this tinkerer.

http://www.barismo.com/labels/Rituale%20Mod.html



  
Date: 16 Dec 2006 18:28:45
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias


On Dec 16, 7:57 pm, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
<alanf...@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:
> I think something missed in this debate is that there is simply NO other
> competitive machine in the under US$500 ket segment. Especially if you
> think in terms of utility, longevity, reliability and information available.
> The first Silvia I ever sold (1999) is still running, as are just about all
> of the others since, AFAIK. It's all very well to go on with "For just a few
> hundred dollars more you can get xxxx" but the reality is that the extra $
> are probably better spent on a decent grinder.

Except that the initial comparison between a $495 Silvia and a
$750-$800 HX machine - it was between about $700 for a Silvia with PID
and those same HX machine. If you assume that a PID is highly
desirable, if not absolutely necessary, to make the Silvia competitive,
the rationale for the HX gets stronger. Unless there are other
concerns, like my issue with counter space, in which case the Silvia
may still make a lot of sense if you don't need to make a lot of milk
drinks.

-Ray



   
Date: 16 Dec 2006 21:05:18
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: 'PID' installs available in Jan. for most Gaggias
<ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166322525.754789.130200@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Dec 16, 7:57 pm, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
> <alanf...@coffeeco.com.au> wrote:
>> I think something missed in this debate is that there is simply NO other
>> competitive machine in the under US$500 ket segment. Especially if you
>> think in terms of utility, longevity, reliability and information
>> available.
>> The first Silvia I ever sold (1999) is still running, as are just about
>> all
>> of the others since, AFAIK. It's all very well to go on with "For just a
>> few
>> hundred dollars more you can get xxxx" but the reality is that the extra
>> $
>> are probably better spent on a decent grinder.
>
> Except that the initial comparison between a $495 Silvia and a
> $750-$800 HX machine - it was between about $700 for a Silvia with PID
> and those same HX machine. If you assume that a PID is highly
> desirable, if not absolutely necessary, to make the Silvia competitive,
> the rationale for the HX gets stronger. Unless there are other
> concerns, like my issue with counter space, in which case the Silvia
> may still make a lot of sense if you don't need to make a lot of milk
> drinks.
>
> -Ray
>

I don't want to imply that there are any "wrong" choices among these capable
machines. I'm merely addressing value for money. If the Silvia is a good
value at $500 because nothing else is competitive with it, and the extra
money would best be spent towards a better grinder (as Alan asserts) you
could make the same argument between the Silvia and a Gaggia. If you bought
the Gaggia you'd have another couple hundred dollars, or so, to spend
towards the grinder.

ken