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Date: 16 Sep 2006 17:29:04
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:

1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
(~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.

2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.

Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
(first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
above does not happen).

Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?





 
Date: 06 Oct 2006 17:13:28
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
An update:
Turned out the pump was bad. While I had the machine apart, I decided
to plumb it in to my waterline as well. Andreja is back and, actually,
better than before.

Replacing the pump also reduced the noise of the machine
dramatically--probably because the old pump, she was shot.

Thanks for all of the helpful voices on this group that helped me
troubleshoot!



 
Date: 20 Sep 2006 09:29:22
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
Yes, I had noticed that the BF screen does not produce this
result--only tamped coffee. Once it malfunctions, though, attempting a
backflush fails (the pump just doesn't work anymore). The water debit
test suggests (and all the incredibly helpful voices on this list as
well as the tech at Chris's have agreed) that the pump is the most
likely culprit, failing intermittently. When the part arrives (next
week?), I'll let you know if that solved the problem.

And I "hear" you on the pump--had I waited a bit when I was buying, the
Vetrano would have been available..... Interesting question--could one
replace the Ulka with a rotary, without having to change electronics
and the like? Obviously, given interior space/size of the pump, you
have to go with the direct-plumb option. I'm sure far more experienced
voices here can mull that question!


MPhiver wrote:
> Tango,
> Very interesting! I also have a two year old Andreja Premium which is
> exhibiting this EXACT same malfunction. I will be following this
> thread intently.
> I have my machine direct plumbed with R.O. water running through a
> Chris supplied calcite filter to uptick the TDS to taste acceptable
> limits. Chris tells me to "leave it alone" regarding descaling. I
> have not done a descaling to date. I regularly back flush the group
> head with Cafizo.
> My machine does the pressure drop thing randomly and not necessarily
> related to temp. I leave my machine on 24/7 and it is always warmed up
> and ready for use. It seems I have never had it do it's "thing" when
> the blank-off plate is in the PF but rather when there is a restricted
> flow going on through the puck. As you say, it just starts cycling up
> and down pressure with a pronounced quiet and smooth sound to the
> vibratory pump. The cycling is so abrupt as to indicate a switching
> problem rather than a volt drop or current affected connection.
> I have taken the OPV apart and found it clean and unobstructed but with
> a severe indentation on the rubber base where the spring contacts.
> Seemed after I reassembled the OPV and adjusted it the problem went
> away for a short time. It is back again with regular occurance.
> I will be most grateful to continue reading of your results from
> testing and if the pump itself is at fault. Along the lines of the
> pump, I have often regretted not getting a machine with a quieter
> rotary pump. Anyone out there have a comment on changing out the Ulka
> Vib pump with a compatible rotary? The procedure to convert?
> Thanks for getting my story out there as well,
> k (in Fallbrook, CA)



 
Date: 20 Sep 2006 08:26:30
From: MPhiver
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
Tango,
Very interesting! I also have a two year old Andreja Premium which is
exhibiting this EXACT same malfunction. I will be following this
thread intently.
I have my machine direct plumbed with R.O. water running through a
Chris supplied calcite filter to uptick the TDS to taste acceptable
limits. Chris tells me to "leave it alone" regarding descaling. I
have not done a descaling to date. I regularly back flush the group
head with Cafizo.
My machine does the pressure drop thing randomly and not necessarily
related to temp. I leave my machine on 24/7 and it is always warmed up
and ready for use. It seems I have never had it do it's "thing" when
the blank-off plate is in the PF but rather when there is a restricted
flow going on through the puck. As you say, it just starts cycling up
and down pressure with a pronounced quiet and smooth sound to the
vibratory pump. The cycling is so abrupt as to indicate a switching
problem rather than a volt drop or current affected connection.
I have taken the OPV apart and found it clean and unobstructed but with
a severe indentation on the rubber base where the spring contacts.
Seemed after I reassembled the OPV and adjusted it the problem went
away for a short time. It is back again with regular occurance.
I will be most grateful to continue reading of your results from
testing and if the pump itself is at fault. Along the lines of the
pump, I have often regretted not getting a machine with a quieter
rotary pump. Anyone out there have a comment on changing out the Ulka
Vib pump with a compatible rotary? The procedure to convert?
Thanks for getting my story out there as well,
k (in Fallbrook, CA)



 
Date: 19 Sep 2006 22:01:53
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
Thanks to everyone--pump is on order, and I'll follow up once it is in
and working.


Robert Harmon wrote:
> If you're doing the water debit test at the pump & not at the brew group
> then I agree with the others; The next step is to buy a new pump & plop it
> in. Problem solved!
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158705307.731947.183120@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > With it cold and working fine, I'm getting well over 250ml from the
> > hose to the brew group and the hose to the boiler (either one, flow
> > seems to be identical) in 30 seconds. There's a long brass fitting with
> > two outlets on it--one goes to the hx and one goes to the boiler. The
> > output seems to be the same on both. With it hot and working fine,
> > same. With it hot and not working fine, I'm getting something like
> > 30-40ml if I'm lucky, slowing to zero.
> >
> >
> > Robert Harmon wrote:
> >> That looks like normal voltage, so the problem is ALMOST certainly in the
> >> pump. Did you note I said almost?
> >>
> >> Can you quickly disconnect the water line from the pump to the boiler? If
> >> so
> >> I'd suggest doing a water debit test when it's 'not working fine'. A
> >> water
> >> debit test will show if the problem is in your pump or upstream from the
> >> pump. If you're unfamiliar with the test see the second link in my
> >> signature.
> >>
> >> In my experience an oscillating pump will either work or not work. If
> >> heat
> >> failure occurs the pump fails completely or if so equipped, the thermal
> >> fuse
> >> pops, shutting the pump down. So I'm still suspicious off the water
> >> supply
> >> system, not the pump.
> >> --
> >> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> >> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> >> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> >> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
> >>
> >> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1158702536.418958.317170@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> >I put the voltage tester on the machine:
> >> > 121-123 when the heater is not on and the machine is working fine
> >> > 117-118 when the heater is on and the machine is working fine.
> >> >
> >> > When the machine is not working fine?
> >> > 121-123 when the heater is not on, and the pump is trying to pump but
> >> > can't
> >> > 117-118 when the heater is on, and the pump is trying to pump but can't
> >> >
> >> > Seems likely to be pump failure, non?
> >> >
> >> >
> >



 
Date: 19 Sep 2006 15:35:07
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
With it cold and working fine, I'm getting well over 250ml from the
hose to the brew group and the hose to the boiler (either one, flow
seems to be identical) in 30 seconds. There's a long brass fitting with
two outlets on it--one goes to the hx and one goes to the boiler. The
output seems to be the same on both. With it hot and working fine,
same. With it hot and not working fine, I'm getting something like
30-40ml if I'm lucky, slowing to zero.


Robert Harmon wrote:
> That looks like normal voltage, so the problem is ALMOST certainly in the
> pump. Did you note I said almost?
>
> Can you quickly disconnect the water line from the pump to the boiler? If so
> I'd suggest doing a water debit test when it's 'not working fine'. A water
> debit test will show if the problem is in your pump or upstream from the
> pump. If you're unfamiliar with the test see the second link in my
> signature.
>
> In my experience an oscillating pump will either work or not work. If heat
> failure occurs the pump fails completely or if so equipped, the thermal fuse
> pops, shutting the pump down. So I'm still suspicious off the water supply
> system, not the pump.
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158702536.418958.317170@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >I put the voltage tester on the machine:
> > 121-123 when the heater is not on and the machine is working fine
> > 117-118 when the heater is on and the machine is working fine.
> >
> > When the machine is not working fine?
> > 121-123 when the heater is not on, and the pump is trying to pump but
> > can't
> > 117-118 when the heater is on, and the pump is trying to pump but can't
> >
> > Seems likely to be pump failure, non?
> >
> >



  
Date: 20 Sep 2006 00:29:18
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
If you're doing the water debit test at the pump & not at the brew group
then I agree with the others; The next step is to buy a new pump & plop it
in. Problem solved!
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158705307.731947.183120@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> With it cold and working fine, I'm getting well over 250ml from the
> hose to the brew group and the hose to the boiler (either one, flow
> seems to be identical) in 30 seconds. There's a long brass fitting with
> two outlets on it--one goes to the hx and one goes to the boiler. The
> output seems to be the same on both. With it hot and working fine,
> same. With it hot and not working fine, I'm getting something like
> 30-40ml if I'm lucky, slowing to zero.
>
>
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> That looks like normal voltage, so the problem is ALMOST certainly in the
>> pump. Did you note I said almost?
>>
>> Can you quickly disconnect the water line from the pump to the boiler? If
>> so
>> I'd suggest doing a water debit test when it's 'not working fine'. A
>> water
>> debit test will show if the problem is in your pump or upstream from the
>> pump. If you're unfamiliar with the test see the second link in my
>> signature.
>>
>> In my experience an oscillating pump will either work or not work. If
>> heat
>> failure occurs the pump fails completely or if so equipped, the thermal
>> fuse
>> pops, shutting the pump down. So I'm still suspicious off the water
>> supply
>> system, not the pump.
>> --
>> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>
>> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158702536.418958.317170@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >I put the voltage tester on the machine:
>> > 121-123 when the heater is not on and the machine is working fine
>> > 117-118 when the heater is on and the machine is working fine.
>> >
>> > When the machine is not working fine?
>> > 121-123 when the heater is not on, and the pump is trying to pump but
>> > can't
>> > 117-118 when the heater is on, and the pump is trying to pump but can't
>> >
>> > Seems likely to be pump failure, non?
>> >
>> >
>




 
Date: 19 Sep 2006 14:48:56
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
I put the voltage tester on the machine:
121-123 when the heater is not on and the machine is working fine
117-118 when the heater is on and the machine is working fine.

When the machine is not working fine?
121-123 when the heater is not on, and the pump is trying to pump but
can't
117-118 when the heater is on, and the pump is trying to pump but can't

Seems likely to be pump failure, non?


Eric Svendson wrote:
> Tango -
>
> I believe the problem is with the pump and, in particular with the pump's
> "motor" or perhaps with the controller for the pump.
>
> I would suggest setting yourself up to measure the voltage at the pump
> terminals using some spade connector adaptors available at Radio Shack and
> other outlets. As the pump is doing its imitation of a "naughty child",
> look for voltage fluctuations on the meter. Obviously there is a small
> voltage drop should the heater cut-in but you could eliminate this by simply
> disconnecting one of the heater leads during your "experiment" - I do not
> believe this has anything to do with your problem but it does eliminate the
> annoying flicker during this experiment. Termporarily tape over the exposed
> lead with electrical tape as necessary.
>
> If the voltage remains relatively constant at the pump "during the problem",
> the fault is with the pump solenoid coil.
>
> If the voltage fluctuates wildly "during the problem", the fault is with the
> controller for the pump such as a circuit board crack that "opens up" on
> temperature.
>
> Eric S.
>
>
>
>
> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158452944.767020.154080@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> > My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
> > after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
> > hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
> >
> > 1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
> > (~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
> >
> > 2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> > finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
> > heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
> > decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
> > trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
> > the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
> > machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
> > open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
> > clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
> >
> > Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
> > (first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
> > releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
> > It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
> > to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
> > above does not happen).
> >
> > Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
> > was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
> > I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?
> >



  
Date: 19 Sep 2006 19:47:17
From: Eric Svendson
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
T -

"Seems likely to be pump failure, non?"

Yes, replacing the pump will solve the problem.

Eric S.

<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158702536.418958.317170@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I put the voltage tester on the machine:
> 121-123 when the heater is not on and the machine is working fine
> 117-118 when the heater is on and the machine is working fine.
>
> When the machine is not working fine?
> 121-123 when the heater is not on, and the pump is trying to pump but
> can't
> 117-118 when the heater is on, and the pump is trying to pump but can't
>
> Seems likely to be pump failure, non?
>
>
> Eric Svendson wrote:
>> Tango -
>>
>> I believe the problem is with the pump and, in particular with the pump's
>> "motor" or perhaps with the controller for the pump.
>>
>> I would suggest setting yourself up to measure the voltage at the pump
>> terminals using some spade connector adaptors available at Radio Shack
>> and
>> other outlets. As the pump is doing its imitation of a "naughty child",
>> look for voltage fluctuations on the meter. Obviously there is a small
>> voltage drop should the heater cut-in but you could eliminate this by
>> simply
>> disconnecting one of the heater leads during your "experiment" - I do not
>> believe this has anything to do with your problem but it does eliminate
>> the
>> annoying flicker during this experiment. Termporarily tape over the
>> exposed
>> lead with electrical tape as necessary.
>>
>> If the voltage remains relatively constant at the pump "during the
>> problem",
>> the fault is with the pump solenoid coil.
>>
>> If the voltage fluctuates wildly "during the problem", the fault is with
>> the
>> controller for the pump such as a circuit board crack that "opens up" on
>> temperature.
>>
>> Eric S.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158452944.767020.154080@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> > My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
>> > after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
>> > hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
>> >
>> > 1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
>> > (~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
>> >
>> > 2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
>> > finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
>> > heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
>> > decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
>> > trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
>> > the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
>> > machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
>> > open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
>> > clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
>> >
>> > Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
>> > (first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
>> > releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
>> > It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
>> > to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
>> > above does not happen).
>> >
>> > Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
>> > was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
>> > I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?
>> >
>




  
Date: 19 Sep 2006 22:14:48
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja update
That looks like normal voltage, so the problem is ALMOST certainly in the
pump. Did you note I said almost?

Can you quickly disconnect the water line from the pump to the boiler? If so
I'd suggest doing a water debit test when it's 'not working fine'. A water
debit test will show if the problem is in your pump or upstream from the
pump. If you're unfamiliar with the test see the second link in my
signature.

In my experience an oscillating pump will either work or not work. If heat
failure occurs the pump fails completely or if so equipped, the thermal fuse
pops, shutting the pump down. So I'm still suspicious off the water supply
system, not the pump.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158702536.418958.317170@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I put the voltage tester on the machine:
> 121-123 when the heater is not on and the machine is working fine
> 117-118 when the heater is on and the machine is working fine.
>
> When the machine is not working fine?
> 121-123 when the heater is not on, and the pump is trying to pump but
> can't
> 117-118 when the heater is on, and the pump is trying to pump but can't
>
> Seems likely to be pump failure, non?
>
>



 
Date: 19 Sep 2006 00:25:05
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
Thanks Ian--
I think I'll try the pump experiment first, since that will take less
time. But I guess I should do this anyway, since who know what types of
problems can be lurking within these fast-ons.

I- >Ian wrote:
> On 16 Sep 2006 17:29:04 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
> >after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
> >hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
> >
> >1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
> >(~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
> >
> >2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> >finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
> >heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
> >decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
> >trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
> >the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
> >machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
> >open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
> >clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
> >
> >Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
> >(first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
> >releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
> >It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
> >to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
> >above does not happen).
> >
> >Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
> >was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
> >I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?
>
>
> - Unplug the machine
> - Remove EVERY FastOn ONE by ONE. It should take a very good tug to
> remove it. If it practically falls off, it's kaput and needs
> replacing.
> - Look for any discoloration on the insulation near the crimp. Check
> the mating connector for any sign of corrosion.
> - When reconnecting the FastOn there should be reasonable amount of
> resistance, only slightly less than required to remove it.
>
> [All manner of weird problems occur due to crappy crimps and FastOns
> that have lost their grip due to thermal cycling.]



 
Date: 18 Sep 2006 21:34:17
From: Eric Svendson
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
Tango -

I believe the problem is with the pump and, in particular with the pump's
"motor" or perhaps with the controller for the pump.

I would suggest setting yourself up to measure the voltage at the pump
terminals using some spade connector adaptors available at Radio Shack and
other outlets. As the pump is doing its imitation of a "naughty child",
look for voltage fluctuations on the meter. Obviously there is a small
voltage drop should the heater cut-in but you could eliminate this by simply
disconnecting one of the heater leads during your "experiment" - I do not
believe this has anything to do with your problem but it does eliminate the
annoying flicker during this experiment. Termporarily tape over the exposed
lead with electrical tape as necessary.

If the voltage remains relatively constant at the pump "during the problem",
the fault is with the pump solenoid coil.

If the voltage fluctuates wildly "during the problem", the fault is with the
controller for the pump such as a circuit board crack that "opens up" on
temperature.

Eric S.




<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158452944.767020.154080@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
> after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
> hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
>
> 1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
> (~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
>
> 2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
> heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
> decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
> trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
> the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
> machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
> open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
> clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
>
> Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
> (first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
> releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
> It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
> to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
> above does not happen).
>
> Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
> was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
> I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?
>




 
Date: 18 Sep 2006 20:35:37
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
On 16 Sep 2006 17:29:04 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote:

>My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
>after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
>hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
>
>1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
>(~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
>
>2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
>finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
>heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
>decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
>trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
>the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
>machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
>open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
>clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
>
>Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
>(first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
>releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
>It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
>to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
>above does not happen).
>
>Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
>was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
>I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?


- Unplug the machine
- Remove EVERY FastOn ONE by ONE. It should take a very good tug to
remove it. If it practically falls off, it's kaput and needs
replacing.
- Look for any discoloration on the insulation near the crimp. Check
the mating connector for any sign of corrosion.
- When reconnecting the FastOn there should be reasonable amount of
resistance, only slightly less than required to remove it.

[All manner of weird problems occur due to crappy crimps and FastOns
that have lost their grip due to thermal cycling.]


 
Date: 18 Sep 2006 11:11:44
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
Yes, I ascertained that it is not the OPV. It isn't a short (it is on a
GFI all by its lonesome), but there's definitely a voltage drop. I
descaled the HX but didn't do the boiler--think I should do that?


jim schulman wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2006 21:59:29 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I'll check these tomorrow and see what I can figure out.I'd be thrilled
> >if it were just the OPV spring... The pump pressure drop isn't the
> >normal drop when the boiler makes a call during a pull. It's more like
> >the pump stops working--not enough amperage to keep it going.
>
> If the pump noise drops way down, then it's neither the boiler nor the
> OPV, but something dropping voltage to the pump -- then it's back to
> the heater, another voltage drop, or a short. You might want to plug
> he machine into a GFI outlet and see if it trips when this happens.



  
Date: 18 Sep 2006 17:06:18
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
On 18 Sep 2006 11:11:44 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote:

>Yes, I ascertained that it is not the OPV. It isn't a short (it is on a
>GFI all by its lonesome), but there's definitely a voltage drop. I
>descaled the HX but didn't do the boiler--think I should do that?

If it's a blockage in the water flow downstream of the OPV, the pump
noise will not go down, since the OPV will shunt the water back to the
tank. The only remaining area for a flow blockage causeing the quiet
is in the early part of the piping.

Otherwise, it's the tedious drill Ian describes.

Finally, of course, the pump itself may be failing when it gets hot.
Ulkas, especially the 52 watt ones, are so relaible in home use that
nobody put this high on their checklist, but it can happen.


  
Date: 18 Sep 2006 15:13:10
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
tango1963@gmail.com wrote:
> It isn't a short (it is on a
> GFI all by its lonesome)

GFIs trip on ground faults, not shorts. A low-voltage condition (if one
actually exists) can be caused by -- among other things -- an internal
or external short or open or resistance, any of which can exist without
causing a ground fault.

Just for the record, for those who may not be aware, a short is a very
specific condition, and is not a synonym for "electrical fault," a usage
that seems to be on the increase lately.

--
St. John
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.
-John Viscount Morley


 
Date: 17 Sep 2006 21:59:29
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
Hi Jim,
I'll check these tomorrow and see what I can figure out.I'd be thrilled
if it were just the OPV spring... The pump pressure drop isn't the
normal drop when the boiler makes a call during a pull. It's more like
the pump stops working--not enough amperage to keep it going.


jim schulman wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2006 11:44:19 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
> <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I'll check the lines for obstructions--but why would this happen only
> >when the machine is really warm??
>
> OK, you've checked the power connections; so that covers the obvious
> stuff. It's time for the more exotic:
>
> A drop in brew pressure could be caused by a weak or slipping OPV
> spring (in case you don't know, it's the gizmo at the end of the
> second hose from the tank). If this is the problem, you'll see a lot
> more water flowing back into the tankl through that line whenever the
> problem occurs. In this case, loosening it (at the barb for the hose)
> and then retightening may fix it.
>
> A worse case is an intermittant leak in the boiler fill solenoid, or
> an intermittant false boiler refill from the autofill circuitry. If
> the boiler refills,pump pressure drops. In this case, the waste flow
> from the OPV into the tank would stop as it occured (since the
> pressure has dropped below the point where it opens). Also, if you run
> water out of the tap, the boiler refill would kick only after a long
> pause, since the boiler is filled above the autofill wand level. It's
> more likely to be the solenoid, since it only happens when the pump
> runs (i.e. there's pressure on it)
>
> The worst case scenario is an intermittant leak out of the HX into the
> boiler. When the leakage occurs, your brew pressure will drop. Same
> symptoms as with the boiler refill solenoid leaking.



  
Date: 18 Sep 2006 00:32:05
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
On 17 Sep 2006 21:59:29 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote:

>I'll check these tomorrow and see what I can figure out.I'd be thrilled
>if it were just the OPV spring... The pump pressure drop isn't the
>normal drop when the boiler makes a call during a pull. It's more like
>the pump stops working--not enough amperage to keep it going.

If the pump noise drops way down, then it's neither the boiler nor the
OPV, but something dropping voltage to the pump -- then it's back to
the heater, another voltage drop, or a short. You might want to plug
he machine into a GFI outlet and see if it trips when this happens.


 
Date: 17 Sep 2006 21:56:48
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
Hi Robert,
I'll give take a look at this tomorrow. I descale the machine every six
months or so, even though I have soft water--I guess scale build-up is
possible. The Andreja is an HX E-61 machine with an Ulka vibratory
pump. The boiler fills fine and holds pressure fine.


Robert Harmon wrote:
> OK, first of all I know nothing of your machine. Is it a HX, single or
> double boiler? Is it equipped with an oscillating or rotary pump?
>
> In general, I'd recommend testing the pumps water debit in both a hot &
> cold environment. There's also the possibility of a short in the coil of
> the pump but I'm not sure how to advise you to test for this in both a
> hot & cold environment.
>
> And is it possible that the pump is unable to self-prime the boiler
> because of scale build up?
>
> As I said your machine is an unknown to me, but if someone called me this
> are the first things I'd check.
>
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> --
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
> Remove "Z" to reply via email.
>
> "tango1963@gmail.com" <tango1963@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1158452944.767020.154080@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
> > after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
> > hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
> >
> > 1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
> > (~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
> >
> > 2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> > finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
> > heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
> > decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
> > trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
> > the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
> > machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
> > open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
> > clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
> >
> > Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
> > (first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
> > releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
> > It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
> > to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
> > above does not happen).
> >
> > Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
> > was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
> > I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?
> >
> >



 
Date: 17 Sep 2006 19:56:11
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
OK, first of all I know nothing of your machine. Is it a HX, single or
double boiler? Is it equipped with an oscillating or rotary pump?

In general, I'd recommend testing the pumps water debit in both a hot &
cold environment. There's also the possibility of a short in the coil of
the pump but I'm not sure how to advise you to test for this in both a
hot & cold environment.

And is it possible that the pump is unable to self-prime the boiler
because of scale build up?

As I said your machine is an unknown to me, but if someone called me this
are the first things I'd check.

Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.

"tango1963@gmail.com" <tango1963@gmail.com > wrote in
news:1158452944.767020.154080@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

> My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
> after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
> hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
>
> 1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
> (~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
>
> 2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
> heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
> decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
> trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
> the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
> machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
> open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
> clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
>
> Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
> (first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
> releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
> It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
> to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
> above does not happen).
>
> Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
> was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
> I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?
>
>






 
Date: 17 Sep 2006 11:44:19
From: tango1963@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja

Bob Yellin wrote:
> >2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> >finally cutting out.
>
> I've owned this machine for more than a year and pulled too many shots to count
> and I've never seen this happen on my machine. Maybe you've already done this,
> but if not, call Chris. His tech staff are very knowledgeable and always make an
> effort to help.
>
> Bob Yellin

Thanks guys. I've had the machine for a little over two years, and
probably pull 6-10 shots a day on it. It gets cleaned on a regular
basis, and it only drinks filtered, soft water. It had to go in to
Chris for service about six months ago for a leak on one of the
fittings (brass t-connector from the HX to the brewhead had sprung a
leak because the original fittings are sealed with goop rather than
tape, according to Chris's service manager). The cords are up to snuff,
and it sits on its own circuit, as it did for the last two years w/o
problems.

The odd thing is that the machine works fine for the first four hours
of operation. It is after it has been warm for a while that things go
whacky. The normal cycling of the heating element only results in a
tiny waiver on the brew pressure (if it cycles on during a pull--1/2
bar at most), and the boiler pressure is rock steady (so the pressure
stat shouldn't be the problem). I went in and tightened all the power
connections--thinking that maybe as things heated up, the normal
expansion could loosen the connectors, causing a loss in amperage to
the pump. At the suggestion of Chris's service dept. I bypassed the
thermal cut-off to the pump, but that didn't help either. I'll call
service on Monday to see if someone is around--I'm loathe to ship my
baby all the way back across the country if there's an obvious
fix/problem that someone has seen before.

I'll check the lines for obstructions--but why would this happen only
when the machine is really warm??



  
Date: 17 Sep 2006 16:23:22
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
On 17 Sep 2006 11:44:19 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote:

>I'll check the lines for obstructions--but why would this happen only
>when the machine is really warm??

OK, you've checked the power connections; so that covers the obvious
stuff. It's time for the more exotic:

A drop in brew pressure could be caused by a weak or slipping OPV
spring (in case you don't know, it's the gizmo at the end of the
second hose from the tank). If this is the problem, you'll see a lot
more water flowing back into the tankl through that line whenever the
problem occurs. In this case, loosening it (at the barb for the hose)
and then retightening may fix it.

A worse case is an intermittant leak in the boiler fill solenoid, or
an intermittant false boiler refill from the autofill circuitry. If
the boiler refills,pump pressure drops. In this case, the waste flow
from the OPV into the tank would stop as it occured (since the
pressure has dropped below the point where it opens). Also, if you run
water out of the tap, the boiler refill would kick only after a long
pause, since the boiler is filled above the autofill wand level. It's
more likely to be the solenoid, since it only happens when the pump
runs (i.e. there's pressure on it)

The worst case scenario is an intermittant leak out of the HX into the
boiler. When the leakage occurs, your brew pressure will drop. Same
symptoms as with the boiler refill solenoid leaking.


 
Date: 17 Sep 2006 10:27:00
From: Bob Yellin
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
>2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
>finally cutting out.

I've owned this machine for more than a year and pulled too many shots to count
and I've never seen this happen on my machine. Maybe you've already done this,
but if not, call Chris. His tech staff are very knowledgeable and always make an
effort to help.

Bob Yellin


 
Date: 16 Sep 2006 21:28:26
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
On 16 Sep 2006 17:29:04 -0700, "tango1963@gmail.com"
<tango1963@gmail.com > wrote:

> Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
>heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
>decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
>trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
>the pressure plummets

What happens to the pump when the heating element cuts in? Worst case
you can get about a 2 bar drop.

This (along with the usual newbie alarm) sounds like the most likely
problem. This is especially likely since the indicator neons are
designed for 220V and are eratic at 110V.

You want to get the pressure drop when the heat turns on to around 1/4
to 1/2 bar, no more. To do this, you'll need a clean circuit for the
machine that's well wired or close to the breaker panel. You'll also
need to replace the 18 or 16 huage stock cord with a 12 or 14 guage 20
amp rated plug. Ehen you do the change, check all the connectors -- if
one is very hot when the heat runs, it's loose.


 
Date: 16 Sep 2006 18:29:07
From: Todd94590
Subject: Re: Periodic loss of brew pressure -- Andreja
I've recently bought this machine, no problems with it to date. Though
the manual received with it was less than fulfilling, info wise.

Only curious thought I'd have is, could the internal piping be getting
clogged? Or might a valve be going bad?

Mine does do one thing you described: "Sometimes the light switches
to red, as if the heating element is kicking in...", but I figure that
for
normal operation and pressure does not drop.

Todd in Vallejo

tango1963@gmail.com wrote:
> My Andreja Premium has started acting odd. For the first 2-3 hours
> after I turn on the machine, everything works fine. After about 3-4
> hours though, if I try to pull a shot, the following happens:
>
> 1) the brew gauge shows that the pump is ramping up to brew pressure
> (~9), and the pump makes its normal loud noises. The shot begins.
>
> 2) Once the machine gets up to brew pressure, the pump cuts in and out,
> finally cutting out. Sometimes the light switches to red, as if the
> heating element is kicking in (perhaps accounting for a larger draw and
> decreased pump power), but usually not. It is clear that the pump is
> trying to pump, but the noise volume drops considerably, and of course,
> the pressure plummets. The shot is a no go, and I have to turn off the
> machine and let it cool. If, after an abortive shot of this nature, I
> open the water wand, and try to get a call to fill the boiler, the call
> clearly goes out, but the pump is not up to the task.
>
> Another odd thing--perhaps related, perhaps not. When I pull a shot
> (first 3-4 hours), and drop the handle back to off, the excess water
> releases as normal, but the brew pressure gauge jumps back to ~10-11.
> It slowly drops down; if I start pulling another shot, it flicks down
> to 2 and climbs back up to ~9 (assuming that the problem described
> above does not happen).
>
> Before I pack it up and ship it across country to Chris in New York, I
> was hoping that someone could perhaps help me. Ideas? Comments? Should
> I give this up and just go hang out at Cafe Trieste?