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Date: 20 May 2007 02:56:12
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Q: espresso cart functionality?
A guy just bought one of my rebuilt espresso machines & grinders - Nuova
Simonelli Mac Personal 1-group & Mazzer Super Jolly - to use with a cart
he's licensed to operate & is having built. No problems with health
inspectors or any of the other bureaucratic BS I told him would take the fun
out of owning his own business. It's a nice cart, $6000 custom built by a
company here in Houston that specializes in vending operations like this.
And there's where the only problem has popped up (so far).

When the guy bought the machines I showed him how to operate it in my
workshop with my set up; 120 volt 20 amp stand-alone circuit, 5 gallon fresh
water bottle, 5 gallon waste water bottle, etc. The people building his cart
have him convinced that commercial espresso machines must have a pressurized
water line feeding it. They've got him convinced that using a water bottle
is bound to ruin the machine, especially if there's no pump pulling the
water from the bottle.

I told him this was unadulterated BS, that the rotary pump is fully capable
of lifting the water from one foot below it using the 3/8" water line. Now,
I use this method in my shop but admittedly I do have a direct plumb setup
for the Bunn ES-1A in my kitchen. So my question is - does it make any
difference if the inlet water is pressurized or not? It seems to me there
might be some *miniscule* excess wear given the extra work the pumps is
doing, but to my mind this wear is infinitesimal if it occurs at all.

Thoughts?
--
Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.






 
Date: 20 May 2007 19:54:11
From: Paul Pratt
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
On May 20, 3:23 pm, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

> Although I don't have much choice since lever machines don't have
> pumps, I personally would prefer to supply what the machine expects,
> and was designed for.

Danny I thought you would enjoy my cowboy set-up. I am planning to use
my 50's lever machine at an expo and then it dawned on me that there
would be no water pressure to refill the boiler.

Having sourced lots of junk I had lying about 10 mins later I had a
nice solution using an old sirai pressure switch and an old pump.
After the check-valve I stuck a tee junction so I could add the sirai
which powers the pump.

By depressing the fill lever on the boiler when you see the sight
glass get low (no electronic fill) that then drops the pressure
closing the contacts for the sirai and pump fills boiler. When you let
the lever go (stopping water from entering the boiler) the
backpressure created by the still running pump opens the pressure
switch contacts turning the pump off.

http://www.espresso-restorations.com/images/DSCN00186.JPG

Works like a charm (if a little crude). I haven't stuck a gauge on
the water line but I'm sure the backpressure exceeds the sirai range
but it's only an old switch and will only be used for a few hours.
I'll tidy the wiring up later.

Paul






 
Date: 20 May 2007 20:25:47
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?

he needs to have a footer valve on the water supply line to prevent
the water from draining back into the bottle.



  
Date: 20 May 2007 21:21:39
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
Howdy Barry!
I supplied him with a gravity ball-valve for anti-siphon purposes. The
biggest hassle has been the wash basin. Health department inspectors seemed
to think of a hand pump (actually a foot operated pump) in relation to a
hand pump for a deep water well (hey, if they were very bright would they be
low-level bureaucrats in Brazoria County, Texas?). We finally convinced them
that what we installed is NSF certified, so all is good.

The cart we've designed will be cool. It's light in weight (except for the
equipment it's all aluminum, with rectangular 2024 aluminum tube frame &
7075 .025 sheet outer skin - total weight w/o equipment ~65 lbs), designed
to be easily on/off loaded & relocated in a half hour. It'll have a
generator if an adequate power outlet isn't available. We've done dry runs
and it seems to work well - the only problem so far is the wind; when it
picks up dosing becomes a challenge (brings to mind the dust storms of the
Middle East).

It's supposed to be ready to go next weekend for some Memorial Day events.
While I have no financial interests in the project other that the sale of
the machines, it's been very satisfying to act as a consultant for the
builder. I had the guy over this weekend as a volunteer barista for a
pre-Memorial Day party at the Ol' Homestead up in the Piney Woods of Texas.
It gave him an opportunity to refine his skills in a hurry, providing for a
coffee-savvy group of 60 or so. I sat up a Nuova Simonelli Mac Digit 1-group
& Mazzer Major so he'd be working with equipment similar to his. Call it a
'Trial by fire'.

He did great job keeping up with demand, so I'm hoping he'll be a huge
success when he goes live. Through his efforts & a few referrals from me and
a few friends, he's pretty well booked up with events through Labor Day,
including two weddings (one is for my baby girl) & a bar mitzvah. The more
fine coffee gets positive exposure the better it'll be for the down-stream
consumers like us. So wish him luck!
--
Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.
"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:smb1535gn0ec7i573tcurnh0j12f567ont@4ax.com...
>
> he needs to have a footer valve on the water supply line to prevent
> the water from draining back into the bottle.
>




 
Date: 20 May 2007 10:39:07
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?


  
Date: 20 May 2007 15:07:29
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
Howdy David!
The guy prefers taking a minimalist approach. The sink has a hand-pump for
water, a very small on-demand water heater, and the fridge is sized to hold
milk for lattes, etc., there'll be a stand alone cooler for soft drinks &
such. After seeing my workshop setup he wants to go without pressurizing the
inlet water and after rereading the Procon specs I don't think he'll have
any problems there. I have convinced him to get a 30 gallon fresh water tank
along with the five gallon waste water (hopefully he'll dispense most of his
fresh water as coffee and less for clean up?).

The main thing he's after is stone-cold reliability - the less that can go
wrong, the happier he is. He's my kind of businessman, K.I.S.S. principle
and all.
--
Robert (Please don't buy from folks that post advertisements in this
newsgroup!) Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.
http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

Remove "ZED" from address if replying by email.
"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:46501c34.36773687@localhost...
>


   
Date: 20 May 2007 22:40:22
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
Robert Harmon wrote:
> stone-cold reliability

Which is, for an espresso machine, a definite oxymoron.

--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


   
Date: 21 May 2007 00:33:09
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?


  
Date: 20 May 2007 15:51:49
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
D. Ross wrote:
>


 
Date: 20 May 2007 06:26:49
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
Robert Harmon wrote:
> I told him this was unadulterated BS, that the rotary pump is fully capable
> of lifting the water from one foot below it using the 3/8" water line.

On Procon's website they clearly state that the pump is self-priming up to a
maximum of six feet suction lift.
http://www.proconpumps.com/Series%201.htm

Other brands are probably the same.
--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


 
Date: 20 May 2007 08:23:06
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Q: espresso cart functionality?
Robert Harmon wrote:
> A guy just bought one of my rebuilt espresso machines & grinders - Nuova
> Simonelli Mac Personal 1-group & Mazzer Super Jolly - to use with a cart
> he's licensed to operate & is having built. No problems with health
> inspectors or any of the other bureaucratic BS I told him would take the fun
> out of owning his own business. It's a nice cart, $6000 custom built by a
> company here in Houston that specializes in vending operations like this.
> And there's where the only problem has popped up (so far).
>
> When the guy bought the machines I showed him how to operate it in my
> workshop with my set up; 120 volt 20 amp stand-alone circuit, 5 gallon fresh
> water bottle, 5 gallon waste water bottle, etc. The people building his cart
> have him convinced that commercial espresso machines must have a pressurized
> water line feeding it. They've got him convinced that using a water bottle
> is bound to ruin the machine, especially if there's no pump pulling the
> water from the bottle.
>
> I told him this was unadulterated BS, that the rotary pump is fully capable
> of lifting the water from one foot below it using the 3/8" water line. Now,
> I use this method in my shop but admittedly I do have a direct plumb setup
> for the Bunn ES-1A in my kitchen. So my question is - does it make any
> difference if the inlet water is pressurized or not? It seems to me there
> might be some *miniscule* excess wear given the extra work the pumps is
> doing, but to my mind this wear is infinitesimal if it occurs at all.
>
> Thoughts?

I prefer to supply my machines with line pressure water, using a
marine pump that supplies 3 bar to the inlet of the machine. Upside
is that it also provides 3 bar to the taps for the sink etc.

Although I don't have much choice since lever machines don't have
pumps, I personally would prefer to supply what the machine expects,
and was designed for.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)