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Date: 30 Apr 2007 12:29:16
From: daveb
Subject: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
" . . . . I wanted to write a follow-up now that I have had this a couple of
months and thank you for this GREAT machine. The controls are "tight" and it
makes OUTSTANDING espresso (once I got past the operator limitations -- me).
I am now marketing my friends to get one of these with the PID -- Thanks for
making this great experience possible."


Ron.

--
Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
877 286 2833






 
Date: 10 May 2007 20:08:55
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units

>
> No thanks, Dave. I live in the world of spring lever machines where a
> couple of degrees change at the grouphead is fine, and there is no
> switching between steam & brew :)
>


I need to experience the beauty of those machines -- I do admit.

regards

dave



  
Date: 11 May 2007 18:32:46
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On 10 May 2007 20:08:55 -0700, Dave b <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>>
>> No thanks, Dave. I live in the world of spring lever machines where a
>> couple of degrees change at the grouphead is fine, and there is no
>> switching between steam & brew :)
>>
>
>
>I need to experience the beauty of those machines -- I do admit.
>
>regards
>
>dave

It's the shots, man. Some of the best shots I've ever tasted were
pulled on my spring lever Astoria with Malabar Gold roasted on a
Poppery I.

North Sullivan
(my Astoria isn't particularly beautiful)





 
Date: 03 May 2007 08:40:35
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On May 3, 5:57 am, praveen.nadar...@starz.com wrote:
> So guys are you familiar withwww.caffetech.comor chriscoffee?
>
> i'm on the verge of purchasing the upgraded quickmill Alexia w/pid
> install. I'm re-considering the PID now after listening to this.
>
> The PID on my gaggia espresso helps to a certain extent because of the
> itsy bitsy boiler.
>
> running 1400 flat CDN$....or around 1264 US$.
>
> That probably sounds high but we get dinged huge in Canada with higher
> prices because of the small market.
>
> "or so i was told".

No, Praveen, you get "dinged" for more because of (sadly) the HUGE
taxes, tariffs and fees that attach to goods shipped into Canada.

Dave

910 616 0980



 
Date: 03 May 2007 08:37:46
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units

>
> In some machines, they carry more current than they can handle -- the
> PSTATs in my Wega were pretty toasty by the time they failed. So far,
> the Sarai has fared better.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3xubxg
>
> Rick

Except for that LOUD clicking -- Wife ran the Astra right out of the
kitchen.

dave
www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 03 May 2007 08:35:24
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On May 2, 12:36 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> Robert Harmon wrote:
> > Howdy Danny!
> > Trying to figure out which best describes you; Luddite or Troglodyte? ;)
>
> >http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Luddite+
> >http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/tr/troglodyte.html
>
> > So says the owner/user of Silex vac pots that outdate your Gaggia by 40
> > years or so.
>
> I can assure you that I'm neither, although I would love to live in a
> cave (with 240v and broadband).
>
> Ken has (succinctly) got me to a tee.
>
> I have no problem with progress, but there is often a point when
> "progress" goes backwards, and in todays throwaway society, things are
> designed and made, not to be particularly good at the job, but to be
> made cheaply and discarded shortly after the guarantee period expires.
>
> Take electric Kettles. I prefer to use the Russell Hobbs K2. This
> Kettle dates from 1960 (as featured on my site) and wasn't updated for
> 10 years or more. I have several, all of which work fine. Parts are
> available, so since this appliance is made of good quality SS and has
> renewable element and switch gear and boils 3 litres of water in as
> many minutes, why would I want to dispose of these and buy a modern
> plastic variant that taints the water and won't last a tenth of the time?
>
> Lever machines typically have large boilers - necessary for the tea
> and americano customers. They can have litres of water renewed in the
> boiler with shot temperature remaining stable (within 3 or 4 degrees).
> They have little to go wrong with no complicated electronic switch
> pads etc. I have only ever had two failures in service in five years
> plus of daily use. Once when the water in the boiler froze and split
> the non-return valve, and once when I incorrectly fitted a piston
> gasket which then leaked during the day. It took less than 10 minutes
> to fix both problems and return the machine to service.
>
> I would use an older LM in the trailer if I didn't have lever
> machines, and this may be unavoidable as parts availability changes.
>
> My house is full of old stuff, which performs better than modern
> counterparts, and often has more beauty in the design. It also has,
> where appropriate, modern stuff which obviously performs better than
> earlier versions - printers, computers, etc...
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)

There is a (made-up) word for all this: DE-PROVEMENT!

DAVE



  
Date: 03 May 2007 19:28:54
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Dave b wrote:
>
> There is a (made-up) word for all this: DE-PROVEMENT!

Explain?


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 03 May 2007 05:57:01
From:
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
So guys are you familiar with www.caffetech.com or chriscoffee?

i'm on the verge of purchasing the upgraded quickmill Alexia w/pid
install. I'm re-considering the PID now after listening to this.

The PID on my gaggia espresso helps to a certain extent because of the
itsy bitsy boiler.

running 1400 flat CDN$....or around 1264 US$.

That probably sounds high but we get dinged huge in Canada with higher
prices because of the small market.

"or so i was told".




 
Date: 01 May 2007 13:47:23
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On May 1, 10:59 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> Robert Harmon wrote:
> > Howdy Danny!
> > I've come to the conclusion that dave has nothing useful to add to this
> > group, so I block his messages from being downloaded. I suggest everyone
> > else who finds his crap objectionable do the same. I mean, unless you
> > actually enjoy trading shots with the guy why bother?
>
> Maybe I do, and if no-one reads dave's posts except newbies then his
> word becomes gospel, which in at least some cases isn't the best
> outcome. You do as you see fit.
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)

Good point. I tend to forget that we get noobs here from time to time.
Ah, fresh meat!

--
Robert Harmon



  
Date: 02 May 2007 14:06:26
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
don't forget that Dave does actually post useful stuff as well... as well as
some genuine offers of help, and he is not the only person who offers help
and assistance for no other reason than he can.

The odd spam from Dave is easily identified and ignored as you say, but in
blacklisting you do miss out on some good info / comments

:)

well thats my thoughts today anyway...

Brent

>
> Good point. I tend to forget that we get noobs here from time to time.
> Ah, fresh meat!
>
> --
> Robert Harmon
>




   
Date: 02 May 2007 02:56:11
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Howdy Brent!
If all of Dave's good points were written down in one column & the bad
points in another column, which column do you suppose would be far longer
than the other? Putting aside Dave's often times snide remarks as childish
attempts to keep his name in the fore at whatever cost, it's his flooding of
the group with his blatant commercial postings that gets most folks dander
up.

It used to be that an ISP would warn & then cancel user's access to the
internet for this, but the civil days of the internet are long gone. Now you
either tolerate his antics, blast away at him, or kill file him. As Danny
reminded me, if we all kill filed him the noobs would only see his unopposed
posts and assume him to be the expert that he pretends to be; which by the
way he's far from being.

Dave could contribute as others do; offer a tip here, a suggestion there,
and still get his self-promotions out the accepted way, by putting it in his
sig at the bottom of his posts. I can appreciate why he doesn't do this - he
so seldom has anything to contribute to which he could attach a sig. So,
poor Dave plugs away, blissfully undisturbed by the ire of the legitimate
readers/posters.
--
Robert (Dave's one good point is on top of his head!) Harmon
www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages
www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies.
www.tinyurl.com/37gwfr - I may have stuff available for sale here.

"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:59qa10F2lfhdnU1@mid.individual.net...
> don't forget that Dave does actually post useful stuff as well... as well
> as some genuine offers of help, and he is not the only person who offers
> help and assistance for no other reason than he can.
>
> The odd spam from Dave is easily identified and ignored as you say, but in
> blacklisting you do miss out on some good info / comments
>
> :)
>
> well thats my thoughts today anyway...
>
> Brent
>
>>
>> Good point. I tend to forget that we get noobs here from time to time.
>> Ah, fresh meat!
>>
>> --
>> Robert Harmon
>>
>
>




    
Date: 04 May 2007 11:56:44
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
> Howdy Brent!
> If all of Dave's good points were written down in one column & the bad
> points in another column, which column do you suppose would be far longer
> than the other?

same could probably be said of mine :)

> It used to be that an ISP would warn & then cancel user's access to the
> internet for this, but the civil days of the internet are long gone. Now
> you either tolerate his antics, blast away at him, or kill file him. As
> Danny reminded me, if we all kill filed him the noobs would only see his
> unopposed posts and assume him to be the expert that he pretends to be;
> which by the way he's far from being.
>
> Dave could contribute as others do; offer a tip here, a suggestion there,
> and still get his self-promotions out the accepted way, by putting it in
> his sig at the bottom of his posts. I can appreciate why he doesn't do
> this - he so seldom has anything to contribute to which he could attach a
> sig. So, poor Dave plugs away, blissfully undisturbed by the ire of the
> legitimate readers/posters.

I don't post for plugs, and many are the same, alt.coffee has taught me
lots, happy to share it back.

If there is some noise, well at least Dave's noise is on topic, there are
indeed bigger things to worry about and deal with, maybe that is why Dave
doesn't bother me.

maybe it is because I am at the bottom of the world...

who knows :)




  
Date: 01 May 2007 14:19:16
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote:

>On May 1, 10:59 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> > Howdy Danny!
>> > I've come to the conclusion that dave has nothing useful to add to this
>> > group, so I block his messages from being downloaded. I suggest everyone
>> > else who finds his crap objectionable do the same. I mean, unless you
>> > actually enjoy trading shots with the guy why bother?
>>
>> Maybe I do, and if no-one reads dave's posts except newbies then his
>> word becomes gospel, which in at least some cases isn't the best
>> outcome. You do as you see fit.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Danny
>>
>> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>

>Good point. I tend to forget that we get noobs here from time to time.

Surprising that you would forget that considering that your sig file
includes:
"www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies."


Randy "Ignore the cancer... it'll go away. What can it hurt?" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




 
Date: 01 May 2007 13:25:13
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On May 1, 3:52 pm, coffeeem...@gmail.com wrote:
> OT
>
> Think about the "OT" label. Precedes something we want to say that's
> not related to the thread or to coffee. It's a good idea. Not
> because we want to "warn" readers who couldn't figure it out on their
> own. IMO, it simply shows some self-awareness. It asks for readers'
> indulgence: "please put up with this personal meander, extraneous
> thought, whatever-----I just want to say it, share it, vent it, get
> some recognition for it."
>
> I'm proposing "BRAG" as an OT-type label. Nothing wrong with sharing
> an achievement, and "BRAG" could be a mildly self-deprecating way to
> show some humility, I've had some trouble with the way Dave has
> treated other posters, but not with his PID self promotion. Something
> nice happens with your personal life, your shots, your business? ---
> brag on.
> Martin

BRAG!

I'll try that next time. fine idea.

dave
www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 01 May 2007 12:52:49
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
You complain about where others are mounted and you also
> bash the "Pepe" method, yet you install your unit right next to a hot group
> head. Right where it can get splashed, spattered, and otherwise messed up.
>

please tell me how it can get "messed up", yokum.

but thanks again for your thoughtful perspective.

and IMO, it is those who pile on the insults and ad hominem attacks
that "lower the civility of the group"

dare I name them? I can -- but won't.

have a blessed day.

dave



  
Date: 02 May 2007 01:22:52
From: Rob Yokom
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Spell my name right, asshole.

"Dave b" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178049169.161469.208970@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> You complain about where others are mounted and you also
>> bash the "Pepe" method, yet you install your unit right next to a hot
>> group
>> head. Right where it can get splashed, spattered, and otherwise messed
>> up.
>>
>
> please tell me how it can get "messed up", yokum.
>
> but thanks again for your thoughtful perspective.
>
> and IMO, it is those who pile on the insults and ad hominem attacks
> that "lower the civility of the group"
>
> dare I name them? I can -- but won't.
>
> have a blessed day.
>
> dave
>




   
Date: 01 May 2007 21:48:20
From:
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On Wed, 02 May 2007 01:22:52 GMT, "Rob Yokom" <r.yokom@mchsi.com >
wrote:

>Spell my name right, asshole.
>


What was that comment about declining civility in the group?
Who was that finger pointed at?









_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


 
Date: 01 May 2007 12:52:04
From:
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
OT

Think about the "OT" label. Precedes something we want to say that's
not related to the thread or to coffee. It's a good idea. Not
because we want to "warn" readers who couldn't figure it out on their
own. IMO, it simply shows some self-awareness. It asks for readers'
indulgence: "please put up with this personal meander, extraneous
thought, whatever-----I just want to say it, share it, vent it, get
some recognition for it."

I'm proposing "BRAG" as an OT-type label. Nothing wrong with sharing
an achievement, and "BRAG" could be a mildly self-deprecating way to
show some humility, I've had some trouble with the way Dave has
treated other posters, but not with his PID self promotion. Something
nice happens with your personal life, your shots, your business? ---
brag on.
Martin

On May 1, 11:31 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> You can imagine that I'm not a big "Dave" fan - he has taken pains to insult
> me personally and repeatedly. He has contributed more than any other person
> to the breakdown of civility of this group to the point where some long term
> posters have left altogether. He has repeatedly spammed the group despite
> being asked many times not to do so.
>
> BUT, I have friends who consider it a major technical accomplishment to plug
> in an appliance without hurting themselves. A "kit" no matter how simple and
> how good the instructions, would be over their heads. For that matter my
> wife would never ever in a million years open the case of an electrical
> appliance. She wouldn't DREAM of doing so. So there is a place for a turn
> key service (or better yet for machines with factory installed PID). I wish
> there was someone else who offered this service but I don't know of any -
> please post if you do.
>
>
>
> > Why would someone want to pay to have their machine shipped to someone
> > when then can order a ready made kit with a better PID unit and install it
> > just as well as you can? You complain about where others are mounted and
> > you also bash the "Pepe" method, yet you install your unit right next to a
> > hot group head. Right where it can get splashed, spattered, and otherwise
> > messed up. I'd say the title of idiot suits you well. And you claim to be
> > so smart. More like smart ass.




 
Date: 01 May 2007 04:37:11
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
That's OK, "Lars Schaumburg-M=FCller OZ1CJX"

whatEVER.

best regards.





 
Date: 01 May 2007 04:32:51
From: Dave b
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On May 1, 1:05 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> daveb wrote:
> > -snip-
>
> Dave - most days at least one customer tells me that I've made them
> the best espresso/cappa/whatever that they've had, but I don't
> immediately feel the need to post the experience here.
>
> I can accept that your PID installs are lovely, without the customer
> quotes, which actually don't mean much. What is the customers prior
> experience? What are they comparing to? Any PID machine will
> represent a significant step up from most consumer machines, and the
> perceived size of the step will be linked to the skill level of the user.
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)

this was his 3rd machine after years.
and I am glad you accept the pid install concept. Others are still
resisting.

Would you like to correspond with my customer?

d
www.hitechespresso.com



  
Date: 01 May 2007 17:32:45
From: Rob Yokom
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units

"Dave b" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178019171.803256.238510@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On May 1, 1:05 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>> daveb wrote:
>> > -snip-
>>
>> Dave - most days at least one customer tells me that I've made them
>> the best espresso/cappa/whatever that they've had, but I don't
>> immediately feel the need to post the experience here.
>>
>> I can accept that your PID installs are lovely, without the customer
>> quotes, which actually don't mean much. What is the customers prior
>> experience? What are they comparing to? Any PID machine will
>> represent a significant step up from most consumer machines, and the
>> perceived size of the step will be linked to the skill level of the user.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Danny
>>
>> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>
> this was his 3rd machine after years.
> and I am glad you accept the pid install concept. Others are still
> resisting.
>
> Would you like to correspond with my customer?
>
> d
> www.hitechespresso.com
>

Why would someone want to pay to have their machine shipped to someone when
then can order a ready made kit with a better PID unit and install it just
as well as you can? You complain about where others are mounted and you also
bash the "Pepe" method, yet you install your unit right next to a hot group
head. Right where it can get splashed, spattered, and otherwise messed up.
I'd say the title of idiot suits you well. And you claim to be so smart.
More like smart ass.




   
Date: 01 May 2007 14:31:38
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
You can imagine that I'm not a big "Dave" fan - he has taken pains to insult
me personally and repeatedly. He has contributed more than any other person
to the breakdown of civility of this group to the point where some long term
posters have left altogether. He has repeatedly spammed the group despite
being asked many times not to do so.

BUT, I have friends who consider it a major technical accomplishment to plug
in an appliance without hurting themselves. A "kit" no matter how simple and
how good the instructions, would be over their heads. For that matter my
wife would never ever in a million years open the case of an electrical
appliance. She wouldn't DREAM of doing so. So there is a place for a turn
key service (or better yet for machines with factory installed PID). I wish
there was someone else who offered this service but I don't know of any -
please post if you do.




>
> Why would someone want to pay to have their machine shipped to someone
> when then can order a ready made kit with a better PID unit and install it
> just as well as you can? You complain about where others are mounted and
> you also bash the "Pepe" method, yet you install your unit right next to a
> hot group head. Right where it can get splashed, spattered, and otherwise
> messed up. I'd say the title of idiot suits you well. And you claim to be
> so smart. More like smart ass.
>




  
Date: 01 May 2007 16:57:56
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Dave b wrote:
-snip-
> and I am glad you accept the pid install concept. Others are still
> resisting.
>
> Would you like to correspond with my customer?

No thanks, Dave. I live in the world of spring lever machines where a
couple of degrees change at the grouphead is fine, and there is no
switching between steam & brew :)

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



   
Date: 01 May 2007 16:10:13
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Howdy Danny!
Trying to figure out which best describes you; Luddite or Troglodyte? ;)

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Luddite+
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/tr/troglodyte.html

So says the owner/user of Silex vac pots that outdate your Gaggia by 40
years or so.
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages
www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies.
www.tinyurl.com/37gwfr - I may have stuff available for sale here.
"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:59p6d7F2l16afU1@mid.individual.net...
> No thanks, Dave. I live in the world of spring lever machines where a
> couple of degrees change at the grouphead is fine, and there is no
> switching between steam & brew :)
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




    
Date: 02 May 2007 08:36:56
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Howdy Danny!
> Trying to figure out which best describes you; Luddite or Troglodyte? ;)
>
> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Luddite+
> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/tr/troglodyte.html
>
> So says the owner/user of Silex vac pots that outdate your Gaggia by 40
> years or so.

I can assure you that I'm neither, although I would love to live in a
cave (with 240v and broadband).

Ken has (succinctly) got me to a tee.

I have no problem with progress, but there is often a point when
"progress" goes backwards, and in todays throwaway society, things are
designed and made, not to be particularly good at the job, but to be
made cheaply and discarded shortly after the guarantee period expires.

Take electric Kettles. I prefer to use the Russell Hobbs K2. This
Kettle dates from 1960 (as featured on my site) and wasn't updated for
10 years or more. I have several, all of which work fine. Parts are
available, so since this appliance is made of good quality SS and has
renewable element and switch gear and boils 3 litres of water in as
many minutes, why would I want to dispose of these and buy a modern
plastic variant that taints the water and won't last a tenth of the time?

Lever machines typically have large boilers - necessary for the tea
and americano customers. They can have litres of water renewed in the
boiler with shot temperature remaining stable (within 3 or 4 degrees).
They have little to go wrong with no complicated electronic switch
pads etc. I have only ever had two failures in service in five years
plus of daily use. Once when the water in the boiler froze and split
the non-return valve, and once when I incorrectly fitted a piston
gasket which then leaked during the day. It took less than 10 minutes
to fix both problems and return the machine to service.

I would use an older LM in the trailer if I didn't have lever
machines, and this may be unavoidable as parts availability changes.

My house is full of old stuff, which performs better than modern
counterparts, and often has more beauty in the design. It also has,
where appropriate, modern stuff which obviously performs better than
earlier versions - printers, computers, etc...

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



     
Date: 04 May 2007 22:24:50
From: RobvL
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:59qtdsF2m0p7aU1@mid.individual.net...
>> I would use an older LM in the trailer if I didn't have lever
> machines, and this may be unavoidable as parts availability changes.
>

There's a chap here in NZ that rebuilds 40s & 50s Gaggia and Zeniths lever
spring machines. From what i understand he can get all the parts he needs,
admittedly a few of the parts he gets made. It should be possible to keep
your lever machines going for quite a few years to come Danny, maybe you
should buy up some of the rarer parts.

Rob vL
NZ


> My house is full of old stuff, which performs better than modern
> counterparts, and often has more beauty in the design. It also has, where
> appropriate, modern stuff which obviously performs better than earlier
> versions - printers, computers, etc...
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




      
Date: 04 May 2007 18:31:33
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
RobvL wrote:

> There's a chap here in NZ that rebuilds 40s & 50s Gaggia and Zeniths lever
> spring machines. From what i understand he can get all the parts he needs,
> admittedly a few of the parts he gets made. It should be possible to keep
> your lever machines going for quite a few years to come Danny, maybe you
> should buy up some of the rarer parts.
>

Mostly the same here, at present, anyway. I can get all the seals,
elements etc and most bolt-on parts are standard - Sirai Pstats etc.
Chrome groups aren't made any longer, so I have 5 or 6 groups. Modern
pattern parts are rubbish for stuff like steam and water valves/wands
etc - they are poorly made and don't last.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



     
Date: 02 May 2007 10:23:06
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
It's funny - we were just having this discussion on another group
(horology) - it turns out that mechanical clocks that were made 100 or even
200 years ago are of much better quality than those made in the last 20
years, which are basically junk that wears rapidly. Obviously we have the
metallurgy to do better than our ancestors but the manufacturers just don't
want to spend the money. They are not thinking in terms of centuries - they
figure if the clock lasts 20 years that's plenty good enough.

I just opened a toaster oven that stopped working and saw that one of
the thermostat contacts had arced thru and burned away. In some former age I
would have been able to replace the thermostat or even just the contact but
this appliance was designed to be disposable - it was all put together with
welds and rivets (probably by automated equipment) instead of screws and is
basically unrepairable. Very often in the life cycle of a product (I'm
thinking of Popperies for one) you'll see the first generation is built
solidly and then in later generations, even if they leave the "skin" the
same, the manufacturers do "value engineering" - they figure out ways to
take cost out of the product - the casting is replaced with sheet metal, a
powerful motor is replaced with a less powerful motor, they get rid of the
power switch, screws become rivets, etc. They squeeze every nickel they
can out of the product because they want to keep the price of the product
the same as inflation increases, because they want to increase their
profits, because Walmart is pressing them to reduce the price, etc. I also
own a very early VCR that weighs around 50 lbs. and must have cost $500 in
1978 $'s - each section of the VCR (tuner, audio, video , motor drive,
etc.) has its own big circuit board.

Now the flip side of this is a lot of stuff today is more affordable than
even before, especially in post-inflation terms . A lot of stuff also works
better, especially (mostly) stuff that benefits from advances in
electronics. But this cheapness has been achieved at the expense of quality
and repairability.

However, you do have to balance the loss of quality with the advantages of
modern technology. Old cars are solidly built but I wouldn't want to go
back to messing with carbs and points. Back in the day, 1/2 the time your
car would not start in the winter and you'd be out there drying off the plug
wires and spritzing ether in the carb - in some areas the technology has
really made a big difference that more than makes up for the loss of
quality. Modern laser printers (themselves much more cheaply built but
cheaper to buy than early laser printers) are a joy compared to the old
daisy wheels that wheezed along at 1 page per minute, etc.


"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:59qtdsF2m0p7aU1@mid.individual.net...
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> Howdy Danny!
>> Trying to figure out which best describes you; Luddite or Troglodyte? ;)
>>
>> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Luddite+
>> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/tr/troglodyte.html
>>
>> So says the owner/user of Silex vac pots that outdate your Gaggia by 40
>> years or so.
>
> I can assure you that I'm neither, although I would love to live in a cave
> (with 240v and broadband).
>
> Ken has (succinctly) got me to a tee.
>
> I have no problem with progress, but there is often a point when
> "progress" goes backwards, and in todays throwaway society, things are
> designed and made, not to be particularly good at the job, but to be made
> cheaply and discarded shortly after the guarantee period expires.
>
> Take electric Kettles. I prefer to use the Russell Hobbs K2. This Kettle
> dates from 1960 (as featured on my site) and wasn't updated for 10 years
> or more. I have several, all of which work fine. Parts are available, so
> since this appliance is made of good quality SS and has renewable element
> and switch gear and boils 3 litres of water in as many minutes, why would
> I want to dispose of these and buy a modern plastic variant that taints
> the water and won't last a tenth of the time?
>
> Lever machines typically have large boilers - necessary for the tea and
> americano customers. They can have litres of water renewed in the boiler
> with shot temperature remaining stable (within 3 or 4 degrees). They have
> little to go wrong with no complicated electronic switch pads etc. I have
> only ever had two failures in service in five years plus of daily use.
> Once when the water in the boiler froze and split the non-return valve,
> and once when I incorrectly fitted a piston gasket which then leaked
> during the day. It took less than 10 minutes to fix both problems and
> return the machine to service.
>
> I would use an older LM in the trailer if I didn't have lever machines,
> and this may be unavoidable as parts availability changes.
>
> My house is full of old stuff, which performs better than modern
> counterparts, and often has more beauty in the design. It also has, where
> appropriate, modern stuff which obviously performs better than earlier
> versions - printers, computers, etc...
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




      
Date: 02 May 2007 08:32:27
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
It goes beyond that. There are some products that are not only
un-repairable, but they are made so that any attempt to repair the
item destroys it. What comes to mind are the various rechargeable
hair/moustache/beard trimmers. The internals are assembled on a
sub-chassis made from plastic and it has locking tabs that snap into
internal slots on the outer case. Once slid into place, any attempt to
access the internals (to change the batteries as an example) destroys
the device. The Sonic Care toothbrush is another example. The early
generations has an electronically welded seam that could be 'cracked'
to replace the batteries but newer models are molded as one piece.

So these appliances end up in landfills, wasting lots of materials,
and it forces us (if we choose to replace them) to consume more raw
materials not to mention the energy it takes to produce and transport
the replacements.

On the other hand, I own a Dremel and no rivet ever stopped me. ;-)

One way this can be applied to espresso machines- why not leave the
smaller, inexpensive pressurestats (that seem to fail at an
unacceptable rate) in place and isolate them using a SSR to protect
their contacts? This can be applied to toaster ovens as well.


Randy "my lawnmower has points but doesn't make toast" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com



"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>
> I just opened a toaster oven that stopped working and saw that one of
>the thermostat contacts had arced thru and burned away. In some former age I
>would have been able to replace the thermostat or even just the contact but
>this appliance was designed to be disposable - it was all put together with
>welds and rivets (probably by automated equipment) instead of screws and is
>basically unrepairable.


       
Date: 02 May 2007 19:03:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
All the mini-pstats I have had fail failed in the diaphragm (leaking, stuck,
etc.). The switch contacts were faultless. So an SSR would have done nothing
to help.

OTOH, an SSR would have saved my toaster but does it make sense to install a
$20 SSR in a $25 toaster?


"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:87bh33p6sua0aarmjvn13hbv6b1cffr2v9@4ax.com...
>
> One way this can be applied to espresso machines- why not leave the
> smaller, inexpensive pressurestats (that seem to fail at an
> unacceptable rate) in place and isolate them using a SSR to protect
> their contacts? This can be applied to toaster ovens as well.
>
>




        
Date: 02 May 2007 23:21:24
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
In article <2qadnQTL6u03haTbnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com >,
nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
> All the mini-pstats I have had fail failed in the diaphragm (leaking, stuck,
> etc.). The switch contacts were faultless. So an SSR would have done nothing
> to help.
>
In some machines, they carry more current than they can handle -- the
PSTATs in my Wega were pretty toasty by the time they failed. So far,
the Sarai has fared better.

http://tinyurl.com/3xubxg

Rick



    
Date: 01 May 2007 19:28:23
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
"Robert

> Trying to figure out which best describes you; Luddite or Troglodyte? ;)
>
> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Luddite+
> http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/tr/troglodyte.html

You can hardly describe the extrovert owner of a coffee trailer as a
troglodyte.

Nor have i seen him trying to halt the march of progress. In fact, i think
he would love one of those spinning jennies in his garden.

Surely his argument is that he prefers the look and feel of earlier stuff
(bakelite, wind up watches, lever arm espresso machines.) and something
younger has to justify its keep (Blackbirds, internets, girlfriends).

Seems a pretty good lifebalance to me.

Ken " whose boat is a lot older than his wife" W





  
Date: 01 May 2007 09:50:10
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
In article <1178019171.803256.238510@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
Dave b <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> On May 1, 1:05 am, Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
> > daveb wrote:
> > > -snip-
> >
> > Dave - most days at least one customer tells me that I've made them
> > the best espresso/cappa/whatever that they've had, but I don't
> > immediately feel the need to post the experience here.
> >
> > I can accept that your PID installs are lovely, without the customer
> > quotes, which actually don't mean much. What is the customers prior
> > experience? What are they comparing to? Any PID machine will
> > represent a significant step up from most consumer machines, and the
> > perceived size of the step will be linked to the skill level of the user.
> >
> > --
> > Regards, Danny
> >
> > http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> > (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>
> this was his 3rd machine after years.
> and I am glad you accept the pid install concept. Others are still
> resisting.
>
> Would you like to correspond with my customer?
>
> d
> www.hitechespresso.com

While I am willing to accept the concept of the PID on an HX, I won't do
it because I see no advantage to me. Others are free to disagree, of
course.


 
Date: 01 May 2007 06:05:45
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
daveb wrote:
> -snip-

Dave - most days at least one customer tells me that I've made them
the best espresso/cappa/whatever that they've had, but I don't
immediately feel the need to post the experience here.

I can accept that your PID installs are lovely, without the customer
quotes, which actually don't mean much. What is the customers prior
experience? What are they comparing to? Any PID machine will
represent a significant step up from most consumer machines, and the
perceived size of the step will be linked to the skill level of the user.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



  
Date: 01 May 2007 13:01:23
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Howdy Danny!
I've come to the conclusion that dave has nothing useful to add to this
group, so I block his messages from being downloaded. I suggest everyone
else who finds his crap objectionable do the same. I mean, unless you
actually enjoy trading shots with the guy why bother?
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages
www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies.
www.tinyurl.com/37gwfr - I may have stuff available for sale here.

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:59o06eF2jcs5nU1@mid.individual.net...
> daveb wrote:
>> -snip-
>
> Dave - most days at least one customer tells me that I've made them the
> best espresso/cappa/whatever that they've had, but I don't immediately
> feel the need to post the experience here.
>
> I can accept that your PID installs are lovely, without the customer
> quotes, which actually don't mean much. What is the customers prior
> experience? What are they comparing to? Any PID machine will represent a
> significant step up from most consumer machines, and the perceived size of
> the step will be linked to the skill level of the user.
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




   
Date: 01 May 2007 16:59:06
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Howdy Danny!
> I've come to the conclusion that dave has nothing useful to add to this
> group, so I block his messages from being downloaded. I suggest everyone
> else who finds his crap objectionable do the same. I mean, unless you
> actually enjoy trading shots with the guy why bother?

Maybe I do, and if no-one reads dave's posts except newbies then his
word becomes gospel, which in at least some cases isn't the best
outcome. You do as you see fit.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



    
Date: 01 May 2007 16:58:12
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On Tue, 01 May 2007 16:59:06 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

>if no-one reads dave's posts except newbies then his
>word becomes gospel, which in at least some cases isn't the best
>outcome.

That is the very reason not to ignore him.


     
Date: 01 May 2007 14:30:26
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units

"Steve" <not@use.net > wrote in message
news:i9se33164i65njbema3oq9fuc7ltj3tops@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 01 May 2007 16:59:06 +0100, Danny
> <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>
>>if no-one reads dave's posts except newbies then his
>>word becomes gospel, which in at least some cases isn't the best
>>outcome.
>
> That is the very reason not to ignore him.


LOL!, a person would have to be a complete idiot to believe that!!...
Craig.



 
Date: 01 May 2007 03:38:14
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Quote from an owner of one of my 'pid' quick mill HX units
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:29:16 -0400, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com >
wrote:

>" . . . . I wanted to write a follow-up now that I have had this a couple of
>months and thank you for this GREAT machine. The controls are "tight" and it
>makes OUTSTANDING espresso (once I got past the operator limitations -- me).
>I am now marketing my friends to get one of these with the PID -- Thanks for
>making this great experience possible."
>
>
>Ron.

Odd that "Ron" writes with the same penchant for ALL CAPS as you do.
You are, regrettably, still an idiot.