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Date: 12 Feb 2007 20:47:17
From: dingrr
Subject: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
Does anyone use this espresso/grinder combination? I've got a
KitchenAid Proline grinder that I've been using with a Melitta drip.
I have finally splurged on the Rancilio Sylvia and intend to get by
with this grinder as I cannot afford a high quality replacement. I
know everyone recommends grinder first but I've been grinding at home
for close to 30 years using the pour over drip. My first few attempts
choked the machine so I'm backing off on the amount (dose) and making
the grind a bit more coarse. Any advice?
Thanks,
Dan





 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 09:22:00
From:
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
On 15 =DEubat, 05:03, "Ed T" <ed.wil...@acsalaskanospam.net > wrote:
> <yuvali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171475018.415817.300790@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> > . In the vertical axis
> > grinder (like Mazzer) the grinds leave the burrs by gravity to fall in
> > the evacuation chamber.
>
> Not true. With flat burrs the grinds exit horizontally (sideways). Which=
is
> why some remain in the exit chute.
>
> Ed

With flat burrs the grinds exit sideways and fall in the chamber below
by gravity. There, the sweepers push them to exit chute just like in a
grinder doser. If the exit chute is too long (some doserless grinders)
the rest of grinds tend to stick there after grinding. The feed of
beans is solely by gravity.

KA tried a horizontal feed (weird design idea) and messed up with the
design: the mechanical feed generates too much pressure (compared to
gravity in vertical alternative), beans get stuck to all possible
edges and corners during the slow fine grinding, the grinds stick all
around the periphery at the exit, clumping and falling like avalanche.
I guess the system could work with black pepper.

David



  
Date: 15 Feb 2007 15:38:25
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline

<yuvali300@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171560120.588230.27260@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On 15 Žubat, 05:03, "Ed T" <ed.wil...@acsalaskanospam.net > wrote:
> <yuvali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I guess the system could work with black pepper.

Or with coarsely ground coffee - it doesn't work that well with fine grinds.
Again there's nothing "wierd" about the horizontal design - it's commonly
used in shop grinders, although rarely for home grinders and never (afaik)
for espresso grinders. Mostly I think for reasons of cost - there are a few
more parts required to implement a horizontal design.




 
Date: 14 Feb 2007 10:35:17
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
On Feb 14, 12:43 pm, yuvali...@gmail.com wrote:
> Jack Denver yazdi:
>
> > I asssume that they purposely made the exit hole small in order to
> > discourage people from sticking their finger in there. I wonder if the hole
> > could be drilled out somewhat? It's really a pity because one of the
> > advantages of a horizontal axis grinder is that the grinds will leave by
> > gravity so that clogging is usually not a problem (assuming the exit chute
> > is large enough.)
>
> "Gravity" is usually in the vertical direction (except may be in
> space, close to another
> satellite). The grinds will not leave by gravity in a horizontal axis
> grinder. In the vertical axis
> grinder (like Mazzer) the grinds leave the burrs by gravity to fall in
> the evacuation chamber.
>
> The problem with the KA-grinder is the too short evacuation screw that
> makes up for the
> missing gravity.
>
> David

Yes, it IS hard to make up for crappy design and execution.

dave



 
Date: 14 Feb 2007 09:43:38
From:
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline

Jack Denver yazdi:
> I asssume that they purposely made the exit hole small in order to
> discourage people from sticking their finger in there. I wonder if the hole
> could be drilled out somewhat? It's really a pity because one of the
> advantages of a horizontal axis grinder is that the grinds will leave by
> gravity so that clogging is usually not a problem (assuming the exit chute
> is large enough.)

"Gravity" is usually in the vertical direction (except may be in
space, close to another
satellite). The grinds will not leave by gravity in a horizontal axis
grinder. In the vertical axis
grinder (like Mazzer) the grinds leave the burrs by gravity to fall in
the evacuation chamber.

The problem with the KA-grinder is the too short evacuation screw that
makes up for the
missing gravity.

David



  
Date: 14 Feb 2007 18:03:40
From: Ed T
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline

<yuvali300@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171475018.415817.300790@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> . In the vertical axis
> grinder (like Mazzer) the grinds leave the burrs by gravity to fall in
> the evacuation chamber.
>
>
Not true. With flat burrs the grinds exit horizontally (sideways). Which is
why some remain in the exit chute.

Ed




  
Date: 14 Feb 2007 21:21:09
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
Nope. There is feed auger is on the inlet side.. remember that in a flat
burr grinder beans enter a hole at the center and exit at the edges. So
unless you have a feed auger on a horizontal axis grinder the beans will not
be drawn into the burrs. On the exit side the grounds come spraying out of
the edges of the burrs, not just straight down but really in all directions.
There are "sweeper" vanes attached to the moving burr that sweep out the
small cavity between the edges of the burrs and the chamber that they spin
in. The vanes sweep the grinds into a VERTICAL chute and they fall by
gravity from the chute. The Kitchenaid's real problem is that the hole in
that chute is tiny and tends to clog even though it has gravity to help.
Again, I think they did this for safety reasons, in case somebody was
tempted to stick their finger way up in there. If you did this while the
grinder was running and the sweeper vane came past the exit hole (which it
does several times per second) you would surely regret it, and that regret
would be translated into lawsuits.

Note that most REALLY high capacity grinders use the horizontal design, so
it must have some advantages:

http://www.1st-line.net/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=DK27LHVwithBaseCont&source=bizrate

which is basically a (highly) scaled up version of the Kitchenaid. Note
that in that one the exit chute (the vertical tube between the bottom of the
grinder and the grounds bin) looks big enough to stick your hole arm in.

But espresso grinders are almost invariably vertical axis.


For a vertical grinder you need no feed auger because the beans fall by
gravity into the center hole. On the output side, there is the same
vane/chamber arrangement but the exit chute is like a HORIZONTAL tunnel (or
sometimes sloped) and so (especially if it is long) there is a tendency for
this shoot to get packed full of coffee - the bottom of the chute acts like
a shelf to hold it there. And doubly so if they have some kind of finger
guard to partly block off the chute. My Rossi has no finger guard and a
very short chute ( I guess Italian commercial manufacturers aren't as
worried as American consumer products companies that baristas will stick
their fingers into running grinders) but it still catches a bit of grounds
that I must sweep out with the brush (when the grinder is not running). .
Whereas in a properly designed horizontal axis grinder nothing remains in
the vertical chute. They usually make up for it though by problems with the
feed augur.




<yuvali300@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171475018.415817.300790@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jack Denver yazdi:
>
> "Gravity" is usually in the vertical direction (except may be in
> space, close to another
> satellite). The grinds will not leave by gravity in a horizontal axis
> grinder. In the vertical axis
> grinder (like Mazzer) the grinds leave the burrs by gravity to fall in
> the evacuation chamber.
>
> The problem with the KA-grinder is the too short evacuation screw that
> makes up for the
> missing gravity.
>
> David
>
>




 
Date: 13 Feb 2007 09:45:07
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
On Feb 13, 12:27 pm, "I- >Ian" <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2007 20:47:17 -0800, "dingrr" <din...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Does anyone use this espresso/grinder combination? I've got a
> >KitchenAid Proline grinder that I've been using with a Melitta drip.
> >I have finally splurged on the Rancilio Sylvia and intend to get by
> >with this grinder as I cannot afford a high quality replacement. I
> >know everyone recommends grinder first but I've been grinding at home
> >for close to 30 years using the pour over drip. My first few attempts
> >choked the machine so I'm backing off on the amount (dose) and making
> >the grind a bit more coarse. Any advice?
> >Thanks,
> >Dan
>
> I tried two KA Proline grinders and IMO they are not suitable for
> espresso. The tolerances can be tightened, but the fundamental flaw is
> the grind chamber.
>
> The grind exit is too small and clogs with fines, then drops a lump of
> fines into the grinds.
>
> The 'sweeper' packs the fines in the back of the chamber for a while,
> then drops a large dose as a lump.
>
> IF you clean the grinder every day, it is tolerable, but giving
> Silvia's reported finickiness, a Rocky / Tranquillo / or better is
> recommended. Preferrably better.


A mechanical flaw. Explains why, when looking over grinder reviews,
I've noticed past instances of KAPs kicking up a bit of excitement
among coffee board posts when going on sale for as little as half
retail. They may be regarded for producing better than average,
acceptable output, although not consistently or with distinction over
density distributions given better grinder valuations.



 
Date: 13 Feb 2007 09:27:09
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
On 12 Feb 2007 20:47:17 -0800, "dingrr" <dingrr@gmail.com > wrote:

>Does anyone use this espresso/grinder combination? I've got a
>KitchenAid Proline grinder that I've been using with a Melitta drip.
>I have finally splurged on the Rancilio Sylvia and intend to get by
>with this grinder as I cannot afford a high quality replacement. I
>know everyone recommends grinder first but I've been grinding at home
>for close to 30 years using the pour over drip. My first few attempts
>choked the machine so I'm backing off on the amount (dose) and making
>the grind a bit more coarse. Any advice?
>Thanks,
>Dan

I tried two KA Proline grinders and IMO they are not suitable for
espresso. The tolerances can be tightened, but the fundamental flaw is
the grind chamber.

The grind exit is too small and clogs with fines, then drops a lump of
fines into the grinds.

The 'sweeper' packs the fines in the back of the chamber for a while,
then drops a large dose as a lump.

IF you clean the grinder every day, it is tolerable, but giving
Silvia's reported finickiness, a Rocky / Tranquillo / or better is
recommended. Preferrably better.


  
Date: 14 Feb 2007 11:44:11
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
I asssume that they purposely made the exit hole small in order to
discourage people from sticking their finger in there. I wonder if the hole
could be drilled out somewhat? It's really a pity because one of the
advantages of a horizontal axis grinder is that the grinds will leave by
gravity so that clogging is usually not a problem (assuming the exit chute
is large enough.)



"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:urs3t21r12o7n14mpap3npodm20r3ub04h@4ax.com...
> On 12 Feb 2007 20:47:17 -0800, "dingrr" <dingrr@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Does anyone use this espresso/grinder combination? I've got a
>>KitchenAid Proline grinder that I've been using with a Melitta drip.
>>I have finally splurged on the Rancilio Sylvia and intend to get by
>>with this grinder as I cannot afford a high quality replacement. I
>>know everyone recommends grinder first but I've been grinding at home
>>for close to 30 years using the pour over drip. My first few attempts
>>choked the machine so I'm backing off on the amount (dose) and making
>>the grind a bit more coarse. Any advice?
>>Thanks,
>>Dan
>
> I tried two KA Proline grinders and IMO they are not suitable for
> espresso. The tolerances can be tightened, but the fundamental flaw is
> the grind chamber.
>
> The grind exit is too small and clogs with fines, then drops a lump of
> fines into the grinds.
>
> The 'sweeper' packs the fines in the back of the chamber for a while,
> then drops a large dose as a lump.
>
> IF you clean the grinder every day, it is tolerable, but giving
> Silvia's reported finickiness, a Rocky / Tranquillo / or better is
> recommended. Preferrably better.




 
Date: 13 Feb 2007 10:22:24
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Rancilio Sylvia & KitchenAid Proline
Many, some, a few, ?? here feel that the KA "proline" grinder is NOT well
suited to espresso.

tolerances are too sloppy.


dave
215


"dingrr" <dingrr@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171342037.744912.195950@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> Does anyone use this espresso/grinder combination? I've got a
> KitchenAid Proline grinder that I've been using with a Melitta drip.
> I have finally splurged on the Rancilio Sylvia and intend to get by
> with this grinder as I cannot afford a high quality replacement. I
> know everyone recommends grinder first but I've been grinding at home
> for close to 30 years using the pour over drip. My first few attempts
> choked the machine so I'm backing off on the amount (dose) and making
> the grind a bit more coarse. Any advice?
> Thanks,
> Dan
>