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Date: 25 Nov 2006 18:54:51
From: Cordovero
Subject: Really firm packing/tamping?
I've been going to Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica now and then, now that I'm in
L.A. The baristas there are trained by Schomer up in Seattle, or so I
understand. I've been really surprised by just how hard they pack the
portafilters. They bang the portafilters really hard on the counter --
which, as y'all know, very much settles the grinds-- and then pack with a
lot force using those huge Vivace ergo-packers, and then they do it over and
over again.

Isn't it a bit much? I'm trying myself to experiment with settling the
grounds. On the one hand, common sense tells me it might help get a more
even tamp. On the other hand, I worry about losing all the fluffiness of
the grounds. Not to knock Luxxe, but their crema seems to be of the quickly
disappearing variety -- though they use those syrupy Vivace beans. Could
that be related to this hard tamping? Is this the new trend nowadays?

C






 
Date: 27 Nov 2006 09:55:12
From: normstar
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
John Frank wrote:
> Offering limited seating is not k's "business model", he is
> constrained by the City of Santa Monica....

They don't call it the People Republic of Santa Monica for nothing!
Thank you for the heads up though, I look forward to trying Caffe Luxxe
this week!

an



 
Date: 26 Nov 2006 17:10:02
From: John Frank
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
Cordovero wrote:

>
> It's a gorgeous place, but they have very, very limited seating. Seems an
> odd business model. > C

Offering limited seating is not k's "business model", he is
constrained by the City of Santa Monica because of the number of coffee
shops already operating on Montana and a lack of provided
parking--there are as many places to sit as k is allowed to have and
not one less. I believe that in the City of SM's eyes Caffe Luxxe is a
shop that can also sell you a cup of coffee and not the other way
around, that's why he's got imported hand soap and jams for sale.

As long as he's in business, however, we have a place to get a great
doppio when we're in Santa Monica... and I hope that he's in business
for a very long time indeed. He's had great press in the LA Times and a
cable show was interviewing him a couple of weeks ago and he's getting
a mention in an upcoming LA Magazine, so hopefully the existance of
great coffee, a great owner, and enough word on the street will keep
the place going.

John



  
Date: 26 Nov 2006 19:22:12
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
I didn't mean to imply that he intentionally kept the seating limited. I
assumed it was by regulation. But perforce that must be part of the
business model, n'est pas?

I hope he stays in business, and I'm doing my best to patronize them. But I
admit it's not much fun to drive there from the Valley and then have no
place to sit. Not blaming him. Just saying it seriously impedes my desire
to go.

C

"John Frank" <johndfrank@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1164589802.574473.11800@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> Cordovero wrote:
>
>>
>> It's a gorgeous place, but they have very, very limited seating. Seems
>> an
>> odd business model. > C
>
> Offering limited seating is not k's "business model", he is
> constrained by the City of Santa Monica because of the number of coffee
> shops already operating on Montana and a lack of provided
> parking--there are as many places to sit as k is allowed to have and
> not one less. I believe that in the City of SM's eyes Caffe Luxxe is a
> shop that can also sell you a cup of coffee and not the other way
> around, that's why he's got imported hand soap and jams for sale.
>
> As long as he's in business, however, we have a place to get a great
> doppio when we're in Santa Monica... and I hope that he's in business
> for a very long time indeed. He's had great press in the LA Times and a
> cable show was interviewing him a couple of weeks ago and he's getting
> a mention in an upcoming LA Magazine, so hopefully the existance of
> great coffee, a great owner, and enough word on the street will keep
> the place going.
>
> John
>




   
Date: 27 Nov 2006 03:52:41
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:22:12 -0800, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:

>I didn't mean to imply that he intentionally kept the seating limited. I
>assumed it was by regulation. But perforce that must be part of the
>business model, n'est pas?
>
>I hope he stays in business, and I'm doing my best to patronize them. But I
>admit it's not much fun to drive there from the Valley and then have no
>place to sit. Not blaming him. Just saying it seriously impedes my desire
>to go.
>
>C

I've never sat there. It only takes 60 seconds to drink an espresso,
and I can't talk to the crew from a table. Go, Italian style. Belly up
to the bar!

shall


    
Date: 27 Nov 2006 08:54:04
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
In article <o5okm2pkj2jfkvn3krvcrtlbj4a7udtqir@4ax.com >,
shall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:22:12 -0800, "Cordovero"
> <cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com> wrote:

> >I didn't mean to imply that he intentionally kept the seating limited. I
> >assumed it was by regulation. But perforce that must be part of the
> >business model, n'est pas?
> >
> >I hope he stays in business, and I'm doing my best to patronize them. But I
> >admit it's not much fun to drive there from the Valley and then have no
> >place to sit. Not blaming him. Just saying it seriously impedes my desire
> >to go.
> >
> >C

> I've never sat there. It only takes 60 seconds to drink an espresso,
> and I can't talk to the crew from a table. Go, Italian style. Belly up
> to the bar!

On the other hand, shall, Italian style (and Greek
style), you could sit at your table, walking-cane in
propped hand, focussing on your complementary glass
of refreshingly chilled ice-water, served alongside and
for long after your first espresso 60 seconds..

..hours and hours and more afterwards ..with your chess,
scrabble or domino set, used newspaper left lying and
bit's of broken chips and nibbling with your likeminded
alt.coffee cronies, perusing the day's comings and goings
and muttering occasionally into your beard, chin and/or
bar-belly - and to anyone else who passes by who might
look vaguely interested..

..aahh.. the balmy pleasures of a relaxed Don's 'Senior'
mediterranean day... ;))

:))

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/


     
Date: 27 Nov 2006 14:04:49
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:54:04 +0000 (GMT), "Bill (Adopt)"
<adopt@billsimpson.com > wrote:

>In article <o5okm2pkj2jfkvn3krvcrtlbj4a7udtqir@4ax.com>,
> shall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:22:12 -0800, "Cordovero"
>> <cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com> wrote:
>
>> >I didn't mean to imply that he intentionally kept the seating limited. I
>> >assumed it was by regulation. But perforce that must be part of the
>> >business model, n'est pas?
>> >
>> >I hope he stays in business, and I'm doing my best to patronize them. But I
>> >admit it's not much fun to drive there from the Valley and then have no
>> >place to sit. Not blaming him. Just saying it seriously impedes my desire
>> >to go.
>> >
>> >C
>
>> I've never sat there. It only takes 60 seconds to drink an espresso,
>> and I can't talk to the crew from a table. Go, Italian style. Belly up
>> to the bar!
>
>On the other hand, shall, Italian style (and Greek
>style), you could sit at your table, walking-cane in
>propped hand, focussing on your complementary glass
>of refreshingly chilled ice-water, served alongside and
>for long after your first espresso 60 seconds..
>
>..hours and hours and more afterwards ..with your chess,
>scrabble or domino set, used newspaper left lying and
>bit's of broken chips and nibbling with your likeminded
>alt.coffee cronies, perusing the day's comings and goings
>and muttering occasionally into your beard, chin and/or
>bar-belly - and to anyone else who passes by who might
>look vaguely interested..
>
>..aahh.. the balmy pleasures of a relaxed Don's 'Senior'
>mediterranean day... ;))
>
>:))
>
>Bill ZFC

Actually they do serve the traditional glass of water with the
espresso. But, I never drink it, because I want to savor the
aftertaste of the espresso. BTW, Caffe Luxxe is surrounded by
restaurants where you can savor the Santa Monica/Mediterranean day on
their patios or sidewalks, but not with a chessboard!

shall


 
Date: 26 Nov 2006 20:22:56
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:54:51 -0800, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:

>I've been going to Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica now and then, now that I'm in
>L.A. The baristas there are trained by Schomer up in Seattle, or so I
>understand. I've been really surprised by just how hard they pack the
>portafilters. They bang the portafilters really hard on the counter --
>which, as y'all know, very much settles the grinds-- and then pack with a
>lot force using those huge Vivace ergo-packers, and then they do it over and
>over again.
>
>Isn't it a bit much? I'm trying myself to experiment with settling the
>grounds. On the one hand, common sense tells me it might help get a more
>even tamp. On the other hand, I worry about losing all the fluffiness of
>the grounds. Not to knock Luxxe, but their crema seems to be of the quickly
>disappearing variety -- though they use those syrupy Vivace beans. Could
>that be related to this hard tamping? Is this the new trend nowadays?
>
>C
>

From what I've seen, many shops use tamping as 'entertainment'... and
the taste bears witness.

Ian "Gonna have to get to Cafe Luxxe before they close as I hear there
is almost no traffic and Diedrich up the street is closing"


  
Date: 26 Nov 2006 14:19:33
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
> Ian "Gonna have to get to Cafe Luxxe before they close as I hear there
> is almost no traffic and Diedrich up the street is closing"

I'm probably going to stop by on Friday afternoon if you're in the
neighborhood.

It's a gorgeous place, but they have very, very limited seating. Seems an
odd business model. They had some regulars come who, when asked whether
they wanted it to go, basically said that they apparently had no choice. I
was in the same boat. Since it's a straight coffee and maybe a croissant
place, I don't see how they can keep it going without more seating.
Diedrich, if it's the place on the corner past the Ralph's/Von's, is always
packed, so I'm surprised they're closing. Went there once and got some
beans which were awful. The Peets' and Starbucks on the same three block
stretch are always packed, too, or so it seems. Tuff business.

C




 
Date: 26 Nov 2006 09:50:37
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
I'm not real impressed with Schomer's beans either at home or at Chafe
Vivace.

R "long lasting crema with a light tamp and Barry's beans" TF

Cordovero wrote:

> I've been going to Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica now and then, now that I'm in
> L.A. The baristas there are trained by Schomer up in Seattle, or so I
> understand. I've been really surprised by just how hard they pack the
> portafilters. They bang the portafilters really hard on the counter --
> which, as y'all know, very much settles the grinds-- and then pack with a
> lot force using those huge Vivace ergo-packers, and then they do it over and
> over again.
>
> Isn't it a bit much? I'm trying myself to experiment with settling the
> grounds. On the one hand, common sense tells me it might help get a more
> even tamp. On the other hand, I worry about losing all the fluffiness of
> the grounds. Not to knock Luxxe, but their crema seems to be of the quickly
> disappearing variety -- though they use those syrupy Vivace beans. Could
> that be related to this hard tamping? Is this the new trend nowadays?
>
> C
>
>


  
Date: 26 Nov 2006 08:33:23
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote:

>I'm not real impressed with Schomer's beans either at home or at Chafe
>Vivace.
>
>R "long lasting crema with a light tamp and Barry's beans" TF
>

And I have met him personally, and was not at all impressed- actually,
I was offended.

Randy "knows one when he sees one" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




   
Date: 26 Nov 2006 11:30:46
From:
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 08:33:23 -0800, Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com >
wrote:

>And I have met him personally, and was not at all impressed- actually,
>I was offended.
>
>Randy "knows one when he sees one" G.

Coming from you, I take that as a recommendation.


What a fool.







_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


 
Date: 26 Nov 2006 07:03:55
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 18:54:51 -0800, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:

>I've been going to Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica now and then, now that I'm in
>L.A. The baristas there are trained by Schomer up in Seattle, or so I
>understand. I've been really surprised by just how hard they pack the
>portafilters. They bang the portafilters really hard on the counter --
>which, as y'all know, very much settles the grinds-- and then pack with a
>lot force using those huge Vivace ergo-packers, and then they do it over and
>over again.
>
>Isn't it a bit much? I'm trying myself to experiment with settling the
>grounds. On the one hand, common sense tells me it might help get a more
>even tamp. On the other hand, I worry about losing all the fluffiness of
>the grounds. Not to knock Luxxe, but their crema seems to be of the quickly
>disappearing variety -- though they use those syrupy Vivace beans. Could
>that be related to this hard tamping? Is this the new trend nowadays?
>
>C

I've pulled successful shots with everything from a handstand tamp to
no tamp, settling taps and no taps. It may be that different tamps
work better with different coffees and blends or with different
machines, but I'm pretty well convinced their is no single "best"
technique. In the right hands, almost any technique can work, as long
as the grinds are level and fairly evenly distributed.

shall


 
Date: 26 Nov 2006 05:00:18
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
"Cordovero" <cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote in
news:ekavma$clr$1@news.Stanford.EDU:

> I've been going to Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica now and then, now that
> I'm in L.A. The baristas there are trained by Schomer up in Seattle,
> or so I understand. I've been really surprised by just how hard they
> pack the portafilters. They bang the portafilters really hard on the
> counter -- which, as y'all know, very much settles the grinds-- and
> then pack with a lot force using those huge Vivace ergo-packers, and
> then they do it over and over again.
>
> Isn't it a bit much? I'm trying myself to experiment with settling
> the grounds. On the one hand, common sense tells me it might help get
> a more even tamp. On the other hand, I worry about losing all the
> fluffiness of the grounds. Not to knock Luxxe, but their crema seems
> to be of the quickly disappearing variety -- though they use those
> syrupy Vivace beans. Could that be related to this hard tamping? Is
> this the new trend nowadays?
>
> C
>
>

I'm not convinced that tamping beyond the point of getting the grounds
leveled is the best way to go. Instead, try using a brief preinfusion
period that permits the grounds in the filter to absorb a small amount of
hot water before pulling the shot. This absorbtion causes the grounds to
swell, resulting in a self-packed shot. This results in thick, rich coffee
with perfect crema.

The most important asspect of espresso making (after bean quality) is the
grind. Get that right & you can fins another use for that $90 custom tamper
you thought you just couldn't live without.

Robert (Has several exotic paper weights.) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
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Date: 25 Nov 2006 19:49:25
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
Cordovero wrote:
> I've been going to Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica now and then, now that I'm in
> L.A. The baristas there are trained by Schomer up in Seattle, or so I
> understand. I've been really surprised by just how hard they pack the
> portafilters. They bang the portafilters really hard on the counter --
> which, as y'all know, very much settles the grinds-- and then pack with a
> lot force using those huge Vivace ergo-packers, and then they do it over and
> over again.
>
> Isn't it a bit much? I'm trying myself to experiment with settling the
> grounds. On the one hand, common sense tells me it might help get a more
> even tamp. On the other hand, I worry about losing all the fluffiness of
> the grounds. Not to knock Luxxe, but their crema seems to be of the quickly
> disappearing variety -- though they use those syrupy Vivace beans. Could
> that be related to this hard tamping? Is this the new trend nowadays?


Wouldn't think so - provided they're still have to be within (defined)
constraints...

...made on a specialized machine that forces hot water through finely
ground coffee that has been compacted (tamped), the force of the water
being spent in the coffee cake. It takes 20-30 seconds to percolate the
water through...

If compression is significant, resulting shots would need be stronger
and doseages higher. Seems that if in order for a force of the water
to be absorbed into a mass of hard cake, the water/pump pressure would
need be compensated to overcome added resistance of an impacted,
machine-pressed tamp. Fluff isn't a consideration beyond infusion and
flow, other than for a reactant surface correctly ground for the former
agents. Time's also out of the equation. Something I've wondered about
- a practical limit, self-imposed or otherwise on the industry by
safety or physical equipment limitations. Atmospheric BARs sound nice,
but dialing in a pump capble of 200-500 lbs. of pressure (some
arbitrary number) sounds interesting while the kitchen walls remain
intact. Perhaps the establishment's machines are of a different
design, built and optimized within some contingency for ground
concentrations apart from a general expectation given at 30lbs.



 
Date: 26 Nov 2006 03:32:12
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?


:)


--barry " >>grunt<<"



  
Date: 25 Nov 2006 21:38:38
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
I take it that my time in seminary has caused me to miss all the new
theories on tamping, hence the chuckle?

C

"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:cl2im21bljmhrgtrodj1cbjj6d2kd763pm@4ax.com...
>
>
> :)
>
>
> --barry ">>grunt<<"
>




   
Date: 26 Nov 2006 06:02:54
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:38:38 -0800, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:

>I take it that my time in seminary has caused me to miss all the new
>theories on tamping, hence the chuckle?


groups.google.com

enter either "handstand tamp" or "grunt tamp" for a more-or-less
thorough history.


--barry "yeah, i can tamp 100lbs"


   
Date: 26 Nov 2006 05:45:59
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Really firm packing/tamping?
"Cordovero" <cordoveroremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote in news:ekb99f$jjr$1
@news.Stanford.EDU:

> I take it that my time in seminary has caused me to miss all the new
> theories on tamping, hence the chuckle?
>
> C
>
> "Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote in message
> news:cl2im21bljmhrgtrodj1cbjj6d2kd763pm@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> --barry ">>grunt<<"
>>
>
>
>

And here I thought Barry was tamping with such force that he farted.

Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
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