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Date: 09 Sep 2006 07:29:16
From: wes
Subject: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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Hi,
First, I'm relatively new to the world of good espresso and this group,
and want to give my sincere thanks to everyone that contributes such
helpful information and helps us relative newbies along. I notice a
little more testiness/crankiness on this board from certain folk than
I'm used to from other places (like avsforum, etc.) but maybe that's
just due to too much espresso!!
I have a question about water. We have a very good 4 stage Reverse
Osmosis system that we use for all drinking water, and I've been using
it for my espresso. Then I read that you want *some* hardness in the
water for optimum brewing, and also for some machines' water level
indicators/shutoffs.
So lately I've been mixing a little Dasani in with the RO water to add
some minerals back in.
What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
low TDS?
Looking forward to your repsonses, thanks!
Wes
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 16:34:48
From: wes
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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Thanks, shall-
Can you provide a link to one of these $15 TDS meters? I get a zillion
results on Google. . .
Thanks,
Wes
shall wrote:
> On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >First, I'm relatively new to the world of good espresso and this group,
> >and want to give my sincere thanks to everyone that contributes such
> >helpful information and helps us relative newbies along. I notice a
> >little more testiness/crankiness on this board from certain folk than
> >I'm used to from other places (like avsforum, etc.) but maybe that's
> >just due to too much espresso!!
> >
> >I have a question about water. We have a very good 4 stage Reverse
> >Osmosis system that we use for all drinking water, and I've been using
> >it for my espresso. Then I read that you want *some* hardness in the
> >water for optimum brewing, and also for some machines' water level
> >indicators/shutoffs.
> >
> >So lately I've been mixing a little Dasani in with the RO water to add
> >some minerals back in.
> >
> >What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
> >the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
> >filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
> >low TDS?
> >
> >Looking forward to your repsonses, thanks!
> >
> >Wes
>
> First buy one of those new, cheap TDS meters (under $15). Measure your
> RO output. If it's effective, your mineral content is probably way
> below the 100 to 150 ppm TDS you need for optimal flavor extraction.
> Then it's just a simple matter of mixing it with tap (if your water
> tastes o.k.) or bottled spring or mineral water in a proportion that
> will get you in the ball park. We mix bottled spring water roughly
> 50/50 with tap water for our espresso and tea making.
>
> shall
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 02:24:58
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On 11 Sep 2006 16:34:48 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com > wrote:
>Thanks, shall-
>
>Can you provide a link to one of these $15 TDS meters? I get a zillion
>results on Google. . .
Search for "TDS-4" on ebay.com. They're $15.99 now.
shall
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 08:12:41
From: Dogshot
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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Thanks for all this information. I test my RO output and tap output
every now and then using aquarium titration kits (the cheapest TDS
meter here near Toronto is still around $70CDN) and mix my water. It
sounds like I have been mixing a little harder than I have been aiming
for.
k
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 15:46:49
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On 11 Sep 2006 08:12:41 -0700, "Dogshot" <ralphtoyou2003@yahoo.ca >
wrote:
>Thanks for all this information. I test my RO output and tap output
>every now and then using aquarium titration kits (the cheapest TDS
>meter here near Toronto is still around $70CDN) and mix my water. It
>sounds like I have been mixing a little harder than I have been aiming
>for.
>
>k
Check eBay Canada for the "TDS-4." They're available for $21.25 Ca.
shall
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 11:23:43
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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"Dogshot" <ralphtoyou2003@yahoo.ca > wrote in message
news:1157987561.482503.298680@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for all this information. I test my RO output and tap output
> every now and then using aquarium titration kits (the cheapest TDS
> meter here near Toronto is still around $70CDN) and mix my water. It
> sounds like I have been mixing a little harder than I have been aiming
> for.
>
> k
>
Hi k, here's 2 Lake Ontario Water Mineral Analysis charts of
Toronto's tap water on my Yahoo Documents page.
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/coffeegeekcraiga/album?.dir=dacc&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//ca.photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos
Cheers,
Craig.
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 10:25:26
From: Mldhab
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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Thanks Jim.
My stashed copy of the 'Insanely long water FAQ' keeps getting longer
and longer.
Mike
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 17:55:11
From: Dogshot
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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jim schulman wrote:
> On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> If you aren't willing to descale, the usual compromise between
> taste and machine preservation used by coffee shops is to run around
> 70 ppm of TDS (or 3 grains, 50 mg/L, of hardness).
>
Hi Jim,
After reading your excellent piece on water, I was under the impression
that mg/l hardness and tds were interchangeable, but the info above
seems at odds with that. Are tds and hardness not essentially the same
thing, and if not, what is their relation?
Thanks,
k
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 14:56:38
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On 9 Sep 2006 17:55:11 -0700, "Dogshot" <ralphtoyou2003@yahoo.ca >
wrote:
>After reading your excellent piece on water, I was under the impression
>that mg/l hardness and tds were interchangeable, but the info above
>seems at odds with that. Are tds and hardness not essentially the same
>thing, and if not, what is their relation?
>
TDS is the Total Dissolved Solids in solution in the water, and can be
determined by a variety of methods. The TDS meters generally in use
around these parts are actually conductivity meters, and measure the
conductivity of the free ions in solution. The conductivity has been
correlated to TDS through other, more labor intensive, methods (eg.
evaporative mass comparison).
Hardness is a measure of calcium & magnesium carbonate in the water,
typically expressed in terms of calcium carbonate equivalents.
It is possible to have dead soft water (0 grains hardness) that has
plenty of total dissolved solids.
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 22:08:33
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On 9 Sep 2006 17:55:11 -0700, "Dogshot" <ralphtoyou2003@yahoo.ca >
wrote:
>After reading your excellent piece on water, I was under the impression
>that mg/l hardness and tds were interchangeable, but the info above
>seems at odds with that. Are tds and hardness not essentially the same
>thing, and if not, what is their relation?
It's kind of tricky. TDS meters read **as if** all the conductance of
the water is due to calcium carbonate and give their ppm reading on
that basis. However, they are standardised to do this, so water board
reports and everyone else uses this CaCO3 equivalent TDH
The readings can be too low if there's solids that are less conductive
(e.g. a TDS meter reads 1/10th the solids in coffee, of course mopst
aren't dissolved or in ionic form).
The readings can be too high by a little (Magnesium is lighter than
Calcium, but has the same conductance)
Finally, some of the conducting solids may be of a non-scaling salts,
sodium, potassium, chlorides, etc.
The bottom line is that **on avergae** in natural water, about 75% to
80% of the TDS is hardness. That is, the ideal 90 mg/L hardness coffee
water will, on average, read about 115 ppm TDS; while boiler safe 3
grain water will read about 65 ppm TDS.
Cirqua offers rather sophisticated "tailor-made" water treatments to
coffee shops that produce water with some calcium, high TDS from other
sources, and low scaling. The various countries' coffeee associations
brewing tests do not cover these tailored waters, so they have no
literature on whether will be as tasty as the regular 80% calcium
carbonate variety. However, the Cirqua taste tests they offer their
prospective customers, as shall says, are quite convincing, and
their viewpoint has become pretty much an orthodoxy, albeit not an
official one.
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 08:34:17
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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> It's kind of tricky. TDS meters read **as if** all the conductance of
> the water is due to calcium carbonate and give their ppm reading on
> that basis. However, they are standardised to do this, so water board
> reports and everyone else uses this CaCO3 equivalent TDH
>
> The readings can be too low if there's solids that are less conductive
> (e.g. a TDS meter reads 1/10th the solids in coffee, of course mopst
> aren't dissolved or in ionic form).
>
> The readings can be too high by a little (Magnesium is lighter than
> Calcium, but has the same conductance)
>
> Finally, some of the conducting solids may be of a non-scaling salts,
> sodium, potassium, chlorides, etc.
>
> The bottom line is that **on avergae** in natural water, about 75% to
> 80% of the TDS is hardness. That is, the ideal 90 mg/L hardness coffee
> water will, on average, read about 115 ppm TDS; while boiler safe 3
> grain water will read about 65 ppm TDS.
>
> Cirqua offers rather sophisticated "tailor-made" water treatments to
> coffee shops that produce water with some calcium, high TDS from other
> sources, and low scaling. The various countries' coffeee associations
> brewing tests do not cover these tailored waters, so they have no
> literature on whether will be as tasty as the regular 80% calcium
> carbonate variety. However, the Cirqua taste tests they offer their
> prospective customers, as shall says, are quite convincing, and
> their viewpoint has become pretty much an orthodoxy, albeit not an
> official one.
Thanks, Jim, nicely said. Dan
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 13:23:28
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 08:34:17 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:
>
>Thanks, Jim, nicely said. Dan
I'm glad I got it somewhat right.
The very inexpenisve TDS meters and undersink small capcaity RO units
weren't around when I was writing the FAQ. When taken along
superket ROs, DIY designer water (a la shall's post) is now
quite feasible at minimal cost: basically measure the RO TDS, measure
your tap water TDS, mix to specifcation. Beats the heck out of ion
softeners and titration or strip tests.
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 19:12:51
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com > wrote:
>What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
>the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
>filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
>low TDS?
shall's adice is good for the taste of coffee. Alas, scale forms in
coffee makers at lower mineral levels. If you have a home machine or
are willing to learn how to descale larger machines, the advice is
good. If you aren't willing to descale, the usual compromise between
taste and machine preservation used by coffee shops is to run around
70 ppm of TDS (or 3 grains, 50 mg/L, of hardness).
You can get tediously more info at:
http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 01:35:39
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 19:12:51 -0500, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:
>On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
>>the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
>>filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
>>low TDS?
>
>shall's adice is good for the taste of coffee. Alas, scale forms in
>coffee makers at lower mineral levels. If you have a home machine or
>are willing to learn how to descale larger machines, the advice is
>good. If you aren't willing to descale, the usual compromise between
>taste and machine preservation used by coffee shops is to run around
>70 ppm of TDS (or 3 grains, 50 mg/L, of hardness).
>
>You can get tediously more info at:
>http://www.big-rick.com/coffee/waterfaq.html
But, coffee shops run hundreds of times as much water through their
machines as home users.
Given the effort serious home users make to buy or roast great fresh
beans, running them through top quality grinders, and perfecting their
tamping technique, I don't think it makes sense to compromise on
water. I would weigh the scale much more heavily for taste for home
users. I run descaler through my Zaffiro every 6 or 7 months and have
never had a problem. The boiler was all nice and shiny inside both
times it was opened up for repairs. Heat exchanger machines, of
course, may require more frequent descaling.
shall
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 18:13:11
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
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My RO water measures 25 TDS, after the calcite treatment device I made (calling
it a filter is counterintuitive) it measures 90 TDS. Dan
"wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:1157812156.068955.147050@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> First, I'm relatively new to the world of good espresso and this group,
> and want to give my sincere thanks to everyone that contributes such
> helpful information and helps us relative newbies along. I notice a
> little more testiness/crankiness on this board from certain folk than
> I'm used to from other places (like avsforum, etc.) but maybe that's
> just due to too much espresso!!
>
> I have a question about water. We have a very good 4 stage Reverse
> Osmosis system that we use for all drinking water, and I've been using
> it for my espresso. Then I read that you want *some* hardness in the
> water for optimum brewing, and also for some machines' water level
> indicators/shutoffs.
>
> So lately I've been mixing a little Dasani in with the RO water to add
> some minerals back in.
>
> What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
> the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
> filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
> low TDS?
>
> Looking forward to your repsonses, thanks!
>
> Wes
>
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 15:09:23
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
|
On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com > wrote:
>Hi,
>
>First, I'm relatively new to the world of good espresso and this group,
>and want to give my sincere thanks to everyone that contributes such
>helpful information and helps us relative newbies along. I notice a
>little more testiness/crankiness on this board from certain folk than
>I'm used to from other places (like avsforum, etc.) but maybe that's
>just due to too much espresso!!
>
>I have a question about water. We have a very good 4 stage Reverse
>Osmosis system that we use for all drinking water, and I've been using
>it for my espresso. Then I read that you want *some* hardness in the
>water for optimum brewing, and also for some machines' water level
>indicators/shutoffs.
>
>So lately I've been mixing a little Dasani in with the RO water to add
>some minerals back in.
>
>What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
>the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
>filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
>low TDS?
>
>Looking forward to your repsonses, thanks!
>
>Wes
First buy one of those new, cheap TDS meters (under $15). Measure your
RO output. If it's effective, your mineral content is probably way
below the 100 to 150 ppm TDS you need for optimal flavor extraction.
Then it's just a simple matter of mixing it with tap (if your water
tastes o.k.) or bottled spring or mineral water in a proportion that
will get you in the ball park. We mix bottled spring water roughly
50/50 with tap water for our espresso and tea making.
shall
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 13:09:40
From: Mark Atanovich
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
|
"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:32m5g2lojfrvc8t44noj1n8o7tm77pndhs@4ax.com...
> On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>First, I'm relatively new to the world of good espresso and this group,
>>and want to give my sincere thanks to everyone that contributes such
>>helpful information and helps us relative newbies along. I notice a
>>little more testiness/crankiness on this board from certain folk than
>>I'm used to from other places (like avsforum, etc.) but maybe that's
>>just due to too much espresso!!
>>
>>I have a question about water. We have a very good 4 stage Reverse
>>Osmosis system that we use for all drinking water, and I've been using
>>it for my espresso. Then I read that you want *some* hardness in the
>>water for optimum brewing, and also for some machines' water level
>>indicators/shutoffs.
>>
>>So lately I've been mixing a little Dasani in with the RO water to add
>>some minerals back in.
>>
>>What do you folk do? Should I just mix a small amount of tap water to
>>the tank to raise the hardness slightly? Is it OK to run straight RO
>>filtered water that (if my system is working properly) has a very very
>>low TDS?
>>
>>Looking forward to your repsonses, thanks!
>>
>>Wes
>
> First buy one of those new, cheap TDS meters (under $15). Measure your
> RO output. If it's effective, your mineral content is probably way
> below the 100 to 150 ppm TDS you need for optimal flavor extraction.
> Then it's just a simple matter of mixing it with tap (if your water
> tastes o.k.) or bottled spring or mineral water in a proportion that
> will get you in the ball park. We mix bottled spring water roughly
> 50/50 with tap water for our espresso and tea making.
For my edification, can someone explain how the the 100-150 number was
derived? Science? Opinion?
k
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 22:44:10
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Reverse Osmosis/Water hardness question
|
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 13:09:40 -0700, "k Atanovich"
<m.atanovich@NOSPAMcox.net > wrote:
>"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:32m5g2lojfrvc8t44noj1n8o7tm77pndhs@4ax.com...
>> On 9 Sep 2006 07:29:16 -0700, "wes" <wnance3@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> First buy one of those new, cheap TDS meters (under $15). Measure your
>> RO output. If it's effective, your mineral content is probably way
>> below the 100 to 150 ppm TDS you need for optimal flavor extraction.
>> Then it's just a simple matter of mixing it with tap (if your water
>> tastes o.k.) or bottled spring or mineral water in a proportion that
>> will get you in the ball park. We mix bottled spring water roughly
>> 50/50 with tap water for our espresso and tea making.
>
>For my edification, can someone explain how the the 100-150 number was
>derived? Science? Opinion?
>
>k
>
Blind tastings by 8 experts at SCAA. They finally narrowed it down to
125 or 150, and all 8 preferred 150. Accordingly Cirqua set the water
treatment for SCAA's coffee lab to 150 tds.
Other reputable sources I've seen have recommended anywhere from 90 to
160. I took Cirqua's taste test at the Boston SCAA conference, where
the same coffee was brewed at 3 different mineral contents. The
differences were startlingly apparent. With tea you can even see the
difference.
shall
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