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Date: 20 Oct 2006 07:32:32
From: dsquid
Subject: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
packets they arrive in?
I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
BillB
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 14:48:07
From: dsquid
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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wally1012 wrote:
> Bill my experiance has been if used within 3 to 4 weeks they are great
> I have frozen a couple of bags and they are ok up to about 2 months,
> after that the flavor loss is noticeable. If frozen you need to let
> them thaw and come to room temps BEFORE you open the bag otherwise you
> will get moisture on the beans from condensation and that will affect
> the flavor. I get my beans from www.ccmcoffee.com and they are roasted
> the day I pick them up and sealed in the one way foil bags. Most of
> the people that roast will tell you its best to let the beans sit 3 or
> 4 days before they hit peak flavor so if you are ordering online from a
> roaster that ships within 24 hours of roasting the beans should be at
> peak flavor when you recieve them.
Thanks for the post, Wally...good info.
BillB
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 08:46:52
From: wally1012
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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dsquid wrote:
> I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> packets they arrive in?
>
> I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
> that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
>
> BillB
Bill my experiance has been if used within 3 to 4 weeks they are great
I have frozen a couple of bags and they are ok up to about 2 months,
after that the flavor loss is noticeable. If frozen you need to let
them thaw and come to room temps BEFORE you open the bag otherwise you
will get moisture on the beans from condensation and that will affect
the flavor. I get my beans from www.ccmcoffee.com and they are roasted
the day I pick them up and sealed in the one way foil bags. Most of
the people that roast will tell you its best to let the beans sit 3 or
4 days before they hit peak flavor so if you are ordering online from a
roaster that ships within 24 hours of roasting the beans should be at
peak flavor when you recieve them.
Wally
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 13:39:45
From: Anon
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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"wally1012" <info@wwsphoto.com > wrote in message
news:1161532012.912703.180270@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> dsquid wrote:
>> I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
>> coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
>> packets they arrive in?
>>
>> I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
>> that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
>>
>> BillB
>
> Bill my experiance has been if used within 3 to 4 weeks they are great
> I have frozen a couple of bags and they are ok up to about 2 months,
> after that the flavor loss is noticeable. If frozen you need to let
> them thaw and come to room temps BEFORE you open the bag otherwise you
> will get moisture on the beans from condensation and that will affect
> the flavor. I get my beans from www.ccmcoffee.com and they are roasted
> the day I pick them up and sealed in the one way foil bags. Most of
> the people that roast will tell you its best to let the beans sit 3 or
> 4 days before they hit peak flavor so if you are ordering online from a
> roaster that ships within 24 hours of roasting the beans should be at
> peak flavor when you recieve them.
>
> Wally
>
I roast my own beans at home, most verities are at their peak 2 days after
roasting. They start going downhill from there. By day 10, they are garbage.
Freezing or vacuum sealing does not delay the staling process.
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 23:48:48
From: Anon
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:39:45 -0700, "Anon" <anon@anon.com > wrote:
>Freezing or vacuum sealing does not delay the staling process.
Well there ya go. The truth is as valid as the messenger's
identity.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 00:40:51
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Jack Maars wrote:
> "dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1161354752.897424.227700@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> > coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> > packets they arrive in?
> >
>
>
> Don't worry about it.
>
> I buy Starbuck's beans and brew them sometimes months after
> they were roasted, can't tell much difference.
>
> People are too anal here.
I don't think I could either. To my knowledge, freezing has no effect
on carbon.
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 18:25:23
From: Jack Maars
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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"dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161354752.897424.227700@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> packets they arrive in?
>
Don't worry about it.
I buy Starbuck's beans and brew them sometimes months after
they were roasted, can't tell much difference.
People are too anal here.
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Date: 22 Oct 2006 07:48:16
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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In article <nCt_g.172480$R63.53034@pd7urf1no >, jmaars@comcast.com
says...
>
> "dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1161354752.897424.227700@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> > coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> > packets they arrive in?
> >
>
>
> Don't worry about it.
>
> I buy Starbuck's beans and brew them sometimes months after
> they were roasted, can't tell much difference.
It's a safe bet that most of the Starbucks you buy is already months
old when you buy it. Time was, they'd donate their beans to charity
seven days after roasting. IINM, they go up to six months now.
> People are too anal here.
Until I started home roasting about seven years ago, I would have
agreed with you. I've since seen the light! My beans are generally
discarded (literally tossed in the trash) 5-7 days after roasting,
depending on the bean. The difference between two days rested and
five days later can be startling.
WRT to stockpiling beans, rumor has it that green beans will keep for
years. I can confirm at least a year without detectable degradation.
I have about 75 lbs of various beans on hand right now (sadly low on
the Harrar). I roast, perhaps, twice a week. The quality of the
brew is well worth the minor hassle, IMO. Indeed, it's easier and
faster to roast a batch of beans than it is to get in the car and
drive to a local roaster to buy them already roasted. As for cost,
at under $5 per lb including shipping for green beans, my roasters
have paid for themselves many times over.
Sorry if I've strayed a bit from the original question.
--
-Mike
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Date: 21 Oct 2006 14:40:47
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Jack Maars wrote:
> I buy Starbuck's beans and brew them sometimes months after
> they were roasted, can't tell much difference.
Heh. Of course, the reason may not be what you think it is...
--
St. John
HOW YOU CAN TELL THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A ROTTEN DAY:
#32: You call your answering service and they've never heard of you.
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 16:29:11
From: Anon
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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"dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161354752.897424.227700@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> packets they arrive in?
>
> I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
> that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
>
> BillB
>
This is a matter of personal taste. For me roasted coffee is over the hill 8
days after roasting and is garbage after 10 days no matter how it is stored.
Anon
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 14:52:32
From: DavidMLewis
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Ken Fox wrote:
> Now, actually, the word "impossible" is perhaps incorrect. I'd assume that
> it would be possible to expose just roasted coffee to such a high negative
> pressure (vacuum) that all the gas that would degas over several days will
> come out immediately. I've never head of anyone doing this but maybe some
> of the commercial plonk processors do this when they package whole beans in
> cans.
>
Ken, Ken, Ken... The most you can lower the pressure, even with the
most godawful-expensive high-vacuum pump there is, is 15 psi, and
considerably less where you live. That's chump change relative to the
reported pressures inside a freshly-roasted bean (how do they measure
that, anyway?), so no, it's still impossible.
David "don't try pulling water up one of your hillsides with a pump at
the top of the tube" Lewis
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 13:50:22
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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"dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com > wrote:
>I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
>coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
>packets they arrive in?
>
>I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
>that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
>
>BillB
This has been debated, discussed, argued, and sworn over here on
alt.coffee about as long (or longer) then I have been around these
here parts. The answer to the question is what works for you. If the
coffee tastes good to you after it has been frozen for a couple of
months, then that is fine.
There are so many factors-
- How long has it been since it left the roaster when you received it?
- How and when was it transported? (In the back of a UPS truck through
the Arizona desert in the summer?)
- How will it be brewed (drip lasts a bit longer than for espresso).
- How picky are you about "fresh" taste?
- How dark (or not) was it roasted?
- etc.?
Personally, I home roast and I try to only roast as much as I use in
about ten days at the most.
My personal credo: "Fresh mediocre coffee tastes superior to the
finest coffee if it is gone stale."
Randy "stale coffee is a bad thing" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 20:48:40
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Finding the keyboard operational
dsquid entered:
> I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> packets they arrive in?
>
> I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
> that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
>
> BillB
I have to agree and disagree with the other posts.
In my opinion, the most important thing to do is to store your beans in an
airtight, lightproof container. Freeze it if you must, I never have coffee
around for more then 10 days to 2 weeks so I don't. I do recommend to my
customers that they do not freeze their coffee and have not heard anyone say
any thing one way or the other.
Nitrogen flushing and re-vacuum sealing are a lot of work and expense that
may not be necessary if you constantly get fresh coffee.
As far as your question as to how long it stays fresh, it depends. I find
that some coffees will be perfectly fine after 2 weeks while others stale
noticeably after 4 or 5 days. Maybe not stale but a definite shift in taste.
Now I know this flies in face of alot if not all the experts. Again this is
just my opinion.
In short, I would buy more often unless you find one will that will store a
long time.
Good luck
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 10:36:50
From: dsquid
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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I- >Ian wrote:
> On 20 Oct 2006 08:20:18 -0700, "dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Jack Denver wrote:
> >> Longer if you keep them in the freezer. State of the art is not vacuum
> >> sealed but one way valve bags that have been nitrogen flushed (you can't
> >> create enough of a vacuum to remove all oxygen and in order to vacuum pack
> >> you have to "off gas" (read pre-stale) the coffee. Roasters will tell you
> >> years and years but the truth is the fresher the better so order as little
> >> as possible as often as possible and don't stockpile roasted coffee.
> >
> >Interesting...I was under the impression that coffee beans should
> >never be frozen - under any circumstance.
> >
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yzvay3
That's a pretty good thread. I guess it's worth a go. It's less
of a pain (and cost) ordering in 5 lb increments than constantly
ordering in 1lb shots. I'll try freezing the unopened bags and
cross my fingers.
BillB
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 10:33:00
From: dsquid
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Ken Fox wrote:
> It really doesn't matter what sort of packaging the roasted coffee comes in,
> except for the Illy cans that use inert gas. Unless you know the roast
> date, and it is very recent (certainly less than 3 weeks) the coffee you
> have purchased is already stale.
I'm referring to buying from online sources who roast the same day
they ship, etc.
So it's in my hand in one of those vacuum sealed packs in less than
3-4 days after it was roasted.
BillB
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 15:31:24
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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"dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161365580.162760.152800@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ken Fox wrote:
>
>> It really doesn't matter what sort of packaging the roasted coffee comes
>> in,
>> except for the Illy cans that use inert gas. Unless you know the roast
>> date, and it is very recent (certainly less than 3 weeks) the coffee you
>> have purchased is already stale.
>
> I'm referring to buying from online sources who roast the same day
> they ship, etc.
>
> So it's in my hand in one of those vacuum sealed packs in less than
> 3-4 days after it was roasted.
>
> BillB
>
Well then you have your terminology wrong. Assuming you are buying whole
bean, it is impossible to pack just roasted coffee into a "vacuum sealed
pack" and have it arrive to you in a way that it appears to still be "vacuum
sealed." This is because the beans will continue to degas for several days
after roasting and even if you did vacuum pack, the package would expand
with the expelled gas in the absence of a valve to allow it to leave the
bag.
Now, actually, the word "impossible" is perhaps incorrect. I'd assume that
it would be possible to expose just roasted coffee to such a high negative
pressure (vacuum) that all the gas that would degas over several days will
come out immediately. I've never head of anyone doing this but maybe some
of the commercial plonk processors do this when they package whole beans in
cans.
Therefore, these bags have a valve in them, or the bags are huge relative to
the amount of coffee contained in them, and they balloon up en route to you
(which I doubt).
OR, you are buying pre-ground coffee in which case everything you have read
in this thread is incorrect, as that coffee is as stale as it can get if it
is already ground when you order it.
ken
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 08:20:18
From: dsquid
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Jack Denver wrote:
> Longer if you keep them in the freezer. State of the art is not vacuum
> sealed but one way valve bags that have been nitrogen flushed (you can't
> create enough of a vacuum to remove all oxygen and in order to vacuum pack
> you have to "off gas" (read pre-stale) the coffee. Roasters will tell you
> years and years but the truth is the fresher the better so order as little
> as possible as often as possible and don't stockpile roasted coffee.
Interesting...I was under the impression that coffee beans should
never be frozen - under any circumstance.
BillB
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 17:16:27
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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dsquid wrote:
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> Longer if you keep them in the freezer. State of the art is not vacuum
>> sealed but one way valve bags that have been nitrogen flushed (you can't
>> create enough of a vacuum to remove all oxygen and in order to vacuum pack
>> you have to "off gas" (read pre-stale) the coffee. Roasters will tell you
>> years and years but the truth is the fresher the better so order as little
>> as possible as often as possible and don't stockpile roasted coffee.
>
> Interesting...I was under the impression that coffee beans should
> never be frozen - under any circumstance.
The injunction against freezing is specifically against repeated
freezing (or refrigerating) because every time you open it when cold,
moisture from the air will condense onto the beans and hasten the
staling process. Sealing and freezing once is much less of a problem,
although some will say that some flavor is still lost.
I've frozen fresh roasted beans with good results during sailing
trips. I usually let it rest for 8 to 12 hours, then I measure single
loads into small baggies, then stuff 6 or so into a vacuum bag and
seal it. Over time the beans outgas more, so the vacuum gets "loose,"
but the flavor doesn't seem to suffer. I've enjoyed coffee stashed
this way several months after roasting.
BTW, on the boat I roasted with a Whirly-Pop on a BBQ. It works fine
once you get used to it, but it generates a lot of smoke, too much for
a crowded ina.
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 17:06:05
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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On 20 Oct 2006 08:20:18 -0700, "dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com >
wrote:
>
>Jack Denver wrote:
>> Longer if you keep them in the freezer. State of the art is not vacuum
>> sealed but one way valve bags that have been nitrogen flushed (you can't
>> create enough of a vacuum to remove all oxygen and in order to vacuum pack
>> you have to "off gas" (read pre-stale) the coffee. Roasters will tell you
>> years and years but the truth is the fresher the better so order as little
>> as possible as often as possible and don't stockpile roasted coffee.
>
>Interesting...I was under the impression that coffee beans should
>never be frozen - under any circumstance.
>
>BillB
http://tinyurl.com/yzvay3
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 11:03:18
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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"dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161357618.570625.120710@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> Longer if you keep them in the freezer. State of the art is not vacuum
>> sealed but one way valve bags that have been nitrogen flushed (you can't
>> create enough of a vacuum to remove all oxygen and in order to vacuum
>> pack
>> you have to "off gas" (read pre-stale) the coffee. Roasters will tell you
>> years and years but the truth is the fresher the better so order as
>> little
>> as possible as often as possible and don't stockpile roasted coffee.
>
> Interesting...I was under the impression that coffee beans should
> never be frozen - under any circumstance.
>
> BillB
>
It really doesn't matter what sort of packaging the roasted coffee comes in,
except for the Illy cans that use inert gas. Unless you know the roast
date, and it is very recent (certainly less than 3 weeks) the coffee you
have purchased is already stale. No matter what you do to it under those
circumstances, you have already started out with a substandard product so
preserving it is sort of pointless. Contrary to popular opinion, neither
vacuum packaging or valve bag packaging itself will preserve coffee.
The above comments would apply to any mass ket coffee such as Starbucks,
Tullys, and most any other brand you can think of. Almost beyond question,
you have received it at a point in its evolution where most serious coffee
people would not consume it, except in an airplane or other situation of
duress.
If you want truly good coffee that is worthy of drinking, you need to buy it
from a roaster who not only selects good quality beans, but who will let you
know whether or not it is fresh, most generally by making the roast date
obvious on the packaging, or in the case of a small roaster in your area,
who will tell you when you ask. So, the idea of taking some sort of vacuum
packaged or valve bagged coffee and trying to "preserve" it after opening is
a waste of time as there is nothing left to preserve.
The only thing that a home based person can reasonably do to preserve coffee
is to place it, in a very fresh condition, into a nearly airtight containter
and to freeze it in a very cold freezer (say zero F or below). Doing this
will preserve very fresh coffee for many weeks to several months. People
who rail against freezing as a rule have little or no real experience with
it.
I roast my own beans and that portion that will not be consumed in under 10
days goes into mason jars in the freezer for periods up to 3 months (but
generally less than 6 or 8 weeks). The coffee is literally in the freezer
less than an hour after it came out of the roaster. I am unable to detect
any significant difference with coffee frozen this way from similarly aged
coffee that has never been frozen. It is felt important by some to avoid
condensation when the coffee comes back up to room temperature by defrosting
the container in its entirety while still closed, opening it only after it
has reached room temperature. I do this and generally keep a range of sizes
of jars around in order to be able to pick a container that will be consumed
within a reasonable time period depending on my own personal circumstances
at that moment in time.
ken
p.s. if you like Illy, the packages does preserve the coffee however many
note that the coffee stales very quickly and remains good for only about 3
days after the can is opened. Considering what the stuff costs, you are
paying a lot of money for a name and for a packaging system that could be
better spent on coffee.
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Date: 20 Oct 2006 10:44:26
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Roasted Whole Bean Lifespan
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Longer if you keep them in the freezer. State of the art is not vacuum
sealed but one way valve bags that have been nitrogen flushed (you can't
create enough of a vacuum to remove all oxygen and in order to vacuum pack
you have to "off gas" (read pre-stale) the coffee. Roasters will tell you
years and years but the truth is the fresher the better so order as little
as possible as often as possible and don't stockpile roasted coffee.
"dsquid" <billbessette@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1161354752.897424.227700@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I was wondering - just how long does just-roasted whole bean
> coffee stay acceptably fresh in those nifty vacumn sealed foil
> packets they arrive in?
>
> I've been throttling my online orders, but I have to admit
> that the appeal of stockpiling coffee is tempting me.
>
> BillB
>
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