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Date: 24 Aug 2007 12:44:49
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Rolling 2nd
I've got the basic Hottop, so hearing the cracks is pretty easy. I've heard
the term 'rolling 2nd' a lot, but what is the strict definition please? Is
it when 1st and 2nd merge, as in an unbalanced selection for a pre-blend?
TIA.

Bertie






 
Date: 24 Aug 2007 13:16:24
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
When it goes into 2nd crack ( a much more subdued "phut" rather than the
"crack" of 1st - you get a few irregulr phuts. That the start of 2nd. Then
the interval between the phuts speeds up until its almost continuous - thats
"rolling 2nd".

After a bit the rate of crack slows and thats "spoilt".

:-)


ken



"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:5j7uliF3sfvfoU1@mid.individual.net...
> I've got the basic Hottop, so hearing the cracks is pretty easy. I've
> heard the term 'rolling 2nd' a lot, but what is the strict definition
> please? Is it when 1st and 2nd merge, as in an unbalanced selection for a
> pre-blend? TIA.
>
> Bertie
>




  
Date: 24 Aug 2007 08:43:19
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
"Ken Wilson" <ken@kwilsonDEDUCT.fsnet.co.uk > wrote in message
news:fami6o$rov$1@aioe.org...
> When it goes into 2nd crack ( a much more subdued "phut" rather than the
> "crack" of 1st - you get a few irregulr phuts. That the start of 2nd.
> Then the interval between the phuts speeds up until its almost
> continuous - thats "rolling 2nd".
>
> After a bit the rate of crack slows and thats "spoilt".
>
> :-)
>
>
> ken
>

all of this descriptive terminology about cracks is roaster dependant. With
my sample roaster, for example, there are about 5-10 seconds and 2 or 3
degrees (at the most) separating the very first beginnings of 2nd and what
I'd call "rolling second." Of course, this is also going to depend on the
acuity of your hearing, and how loud is the background noise created by your
roaster.

In the end, and especially for us middle-aged people who are in the process
of losing our hearing, thermometry is preferable to relying solely on
hearing cracks.

ken




   
Date: 24 Aug 2007 10:10:51
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:43:19 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

>"Ken Wilson" <ken@kwilsonDEDUCT.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:fami6o$rov$1@aioe.org...
>> When it goes into 2nd crack ( a much more subdued "phut" rather than the
>> "crack" of 1st - you get a few irregulr phuts. That the start of 2nd.
>> Then the interval between the phuts speeds up until its almost
>> continuous - thats "rolling 2nd".
>>
>> After a bit the rate of crack slows and thats "spoilt".
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> ken
>>
>
>all of this descriptive terminology about cracks is roaster dependant. With
>my sample roaster, for example, there are about 5-10 seconds and 2 or 3
>degrees (at the most) separating the very first beginnings of 2nd and what
>I'd call "rolling second." Of course, this is also going to depend on the
>acuity of your hearing, and how loud is the background noise created by your
>roaster.
>
>In the end, and especially for us middle-aged people who are in the process
>of losing our hearing, thermometry is preferable to relying solely on
>hearing cracks.
>
>ken
>

Depending on the blend, rolling 2nd may be quite pronounced or rather
flat. I agree with Ken that temperature is preferable.


   
Date: 24 Aug 2007 12:34:20
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
I've never used a thermometer and I can judge my (popper) roasts quite well.
The sound of the cracks is certainly a big clue but so is appearance and
smell.

I go to a rolling 2nd crack only by mistake - rolling 2nd is "Charbucks"
territory where all varietal character is gone.


"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5j893fF3sae5lU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Ken Wilson" <ken@kwilsonDEDUCT.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:fami6o$rov$1@aioe.org...
>> When it goes into 2nd crack ( a much more subdued "phut" rather than the
>> "crack" of 1st - you get a few irregulr phuts. That the start of 2nd.
>> Then the interval between the phuts speeds up until its almost
>> continuous - thats "rolling 2nd".
>>
>> After a bit the rate of crack slows and thats "spoilt".
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> ken
>>
>
> all of this descriptive terminology about cracks is roaster dependant.
> With my sample roaster, for example, there are about 5-10 seconds and 2 or
> 3 degrees (at the most) separating the very first beginnings of 2nd and
> what I'd call "rolling second." Of course, this is also going to depend
> on the acuity of your hearing, and how loud is the background noise
> created by your roaster.
>
> In the end, and especially for us middle-aged people who are in the
> process of losing our hearing, thermometry is preferable to relying solely
> on hearing cracks.
>
> ken
>
>
>




    
Date: 25 Aug 2007 00:57:44
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 12:34:20 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>The sound of the cracks is certainly a big clue but so is appearance and
>smell.

Barry was kind enough to post the perfect, for me, descriptions of
roast stage/smell.
It has been my guide since.
Using my iRoast it is sometimes difficult to discern the beginning of
second crack, and the rest of the time impossible.


    
Date: 24 Aug 2007 13:17:25
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:E7OdnZ39I_4RlVLbnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> I've never used a thermometer and I can judge my (popper) roasts quite
> well. The sound of the cracks is certainly a big clue but so is appearance
> and smell.
>
> I go to a rolling 2nd crack only by mistake - rolling 2nd is "Charbucks"
> territory where all varietal character is gone.
>

You have got to be kidding. Of course, maybe this reflects what happens
with 5 or 6 minute popper roasts.

If I go to what I call rolling second, my beans ar light to medium brown and
have absolutely zero oil until maybe 5 days out when there are almost
microscopic droplets showing. Staying in rolling second for 2 minutes =
charbucks with my roaster.

These days I don't even go as far as second most of the time, stopping a few
degrees short of the first few crackles.

ken




     
Date: 25 Aug 2007 10:51:55
From: RobvL
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
1 pound of coffee versus 80 to 100grams Ken. Rolling 2nd with a pound of
coffee probably appears to start at a lighter roast point, couple that with
the faster roast times of the popper (as you noted) and it makes it hard to
compare.

I go with temperature for the drop point, i don't really may too much
attention to exactly when 2nd starts or how far into 2nd the roast is.
Though it is about rolling 2nd, same result here beans that might be a
little shiny oil drops not for at least 4 + days.

Rob vL
NZ


"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:5j8p5cF3s7mc8U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:E7OdnZ39I_4RlVLbnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> I've never used a thermometer and I can judge my (popper) roasts quite
>> well. The sound of the cracks is certainly a big clue but so is
>> appearance and smell.
>>
>> I go to a rolling 2nd crack only by mistake - rolling 2nd is "Charbucks"
>> territory where all varietal character is gone.
>>
>
> You have got to be kidding. Of course, maybe this reflects what happens
> with 5 or 6 minute popper roasts.
>
> If I go to what I call rolling second, my beans ar light to medium brown
> and have absolutely zero oil until maybe 5 days out when there are almost
> microscopic droplets showing. Staying in rolling second for 2 minutes =
> charbucks with my roaster.
>
> These days I don't even go as far as second most of the time, stopping a
> few degrees short of the first few crackles.
>
> ken
>
>




      
Date: 25 Aug 2007 10:30:20
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd

"RobvL" <wontwork@dontbother.net > wrote in message
news:46cf6111$1@clear.net.nz...
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5j8p5cF3s7mc8U1@mid.individual.net...
> > "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> > news:E7OdnZ39I_4RlVLbnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >> I've never used a thermometer and I can judge my (popper) roasts quite
> >> well. The sound of the cracks is certainly a big clue but so is
> >> appearance and smell.
> >>
> >> I go to a rolling 2nd crack only by mistake - rolling 2nd is
"Charbucks"
> >> territory where all varietal character is gone.
> >>
> >
> > You have got to be kidding. Of course, maybe this reflects what happens
> > with 5 or 6 minute popper roasts.
> >
> > If I go to what I call rolling second, my beans ar light to medium brown
> > and have absolutely zero oil until maybe 5 days out when there are
almost
> > microscopic droplets showing. Staying in rolling second for 2 minutes =
> > charbucks with my roaster.
> >
> > These days I don't even go as far as second most of the time, stopping a
> > few degrees short of the first few crackles.
> >
> > ken
> >
> 1 pound of coffee versus 80 to 100grams Ken. Rolling 2nd with a pound of
> coffee probably appears to start at a lighter roast point, couple that
with
> the faster roast times of the popper (as you noted) and it makes it hard
to
> compare.
>
> I go with temperature for the drop point, i don't really may too much
> attention to exactly when 2nd starts or how far into 2nd the roast is.
> Though it is about rolling 2nd, same result here beans that might be a
> little shiny oil drops not for at least 4 + days.
>
> Rob vL
> NZ
>
You're right Rob, it is hard to compare. Ken summed it up well in his first
post when he said
"all of this descriptive terminology about cracks is roaster dependant."

My own experience is that air roasters have much less inertia than drum and
so its not so much 80g versus 454g but more the inertia of the system. A
drum is much slower to react due to the much larger thermal mass and also
the different method(s) of heat transfer to the beans. In the case of drum
there's conduction (both bean to bean and bean to drum), convection (air to
bean) and infra-red(bean to bean and drum to bean), whereas the air roaster
is pretty much predominantly air to bean with mabe a little infrared on the
fringes. The air roaster heat transfer imo is the most efficient in terms of
even application of heat to all the exterior surface of the bean at once,
immersed in an envelope.

A few years back I made a roaster using a heat exchanger in a BBQ and a
silenced shop vac to blow the beans. It could do around 13 ounces green due
to constraints of the roasting vessel a stainless milkshake cup. I had
thermocouples monitoring the temp at the entry to the roasting chamber and
in the beans. For that I always used bean temp for the 'drop point'. The
crack were easy to hear as the air output was via drier tubing into a
plastic trash can to collect the chaff. Snaps of 2nd would echo in the bin.
2 mins at rolling 2nd in that would certainly be charcoal, at least in
taste. I've found the same applies to poppers even when the roast is
stretched using variacs and fan control. So ime it's not so much about bean
mass as heat transference and that's where air roasters get most of the
beans evenly all at mostly the same time. A popper has a much higher "power
to weight ratio", for want of a beter term, than larger air roasters which I
think has more bearing than the bean mass. More like a sports car being
compared to a Land Cruiser.
OTOH I have another roasting system using a windscreen-wiper motor driving
the stirring paddle of a stainless stove-top corn popper where the heat
transfer is predominantly by conduction and infra-red. For this it hard to
gauge the temps as the paddle inhibits having a probe in the bean mass but
the air temps right above the beans give some indication after you've
watched several hundred roasts. Those temps never get over 400 F for a
rolling 2nd. Also remarkable about this method is that if I take a roast 20
seconds into rolling 2nd then dump and cool the beans right away they taste
green.

If instead doing everything else the same but when I dump the beans I let
them cool really slowly with the cooling fan on slow they may keep cracking
for a minute or more over the cooling fan, not rolling just the occasionl
snap. Then once they are done snapping cool them quickly down to touchable
on high fan, the green taste is not present.
I put this down to the way the heat is transferred to the beans with this
style of roasting. Seems like the heat is taking its own sweet time to
distribute and get to the center of the bean from a whole bunch of point
contact heat transfers so things develop more slowly.
As I see it there's no way to reproduce this scenario in an air roaster,
the methods are so different. In an air roaster at rolling 2nd temps you
can't easily coast as the inertia isn't there. Remove the heat in an air
roaster and rather than coast you cool. The difficulty is that even if you
PID the temp at that stage the constantly replaced air around the beans is
changing the environment. The closest you could get would be to turn off the
air. Problem there is then the beans fall down, maybe onto surfaces that are
even hotter and get scorched or tipped at the point of contact. Whereas
with drum and similar you can drop the heat altogether and the thermal
inertia, plus continued motion, muffles the change allowing a coast so that
cooling doesn't begin in ernest until you drop the beans from the roaster.
Of course there is the thermal mass of 80g versus 454g as well so I guess
you're right.
Difficult to compare but easy to speculate.
Johnny




      
Date: 25 Aug 2007 13:28:58
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd

"RobvL" wrote in message
> I go with temperature for the drop point, i don't really may too much
> attention to exactly when 2nd starts or how far into 2nd the roast is.

Thanks all for the heads-up on R2. It probably explains my inconsistancy in
roasts. I'm comfy with going to Lt Vienna with my Ethiopians, MM and OBJ as
I don't like the brightness in a lighter roast.

Despite middle-age, my hearing is great, but sense of smell is shot. Being a
bit colour blind dosen't help, so I got a TSP572 probe, which has a range up
to 300C/572F. I've used it on a MMalabar and a Haraar roast, both @ 225g.
Using an 'R' clip, the probe is inserted thru the bean hatch and stops just
short of fouling the drum.

The temperatures confirm that the basic 240v Hottop has one fixed profile.
The fan comes in for a couple of mins after 'entry beeps' and kicks in again
at 14.25 mins. Between 17 and 20 mins, the temp gradiant is fairly flat,
going from 218C/425F to 223C/443F. Both SO's were ejected at 19mins, giving
Lt Vienna, with surface oil sheen. So this would be 30secs after R2.
Charbucks maybe, 1.25oz from 15.5gr, no milk, but should produce chest-hair
growth.

Rob, you mention temperature 'drop point'. By drop point do you mean eject
point? If so, what temp are you and KenF using? Purely academic, as I have
no control over profile, but I can adjust the load. 225g is 25g below the
manufact's recommended, which cuts about 2 mins off, what others are getting
with the basic HT.

Bertie




       
Date: 25 Aug 2007 08:08:15
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Rolling 2nd
"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:5jalkeF3qqammU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>>
> Rob, you mention temperature 'drop point'. By drop point do you mean eject
> point? If so, what temp are you and KenF using? Purely academic, as I have
> no control over profile, but I can adjust the load. 225g is 25g below the
> manufact's recommended, which cuts about 2 mins off, what others are
> getting with the basic HT.
>
> Bertie
>

The temperature probe in my sample roaster reads higher than reality,
presumably due to where it is placed. I say "higher than reality" because
the roast level I get is considerably lighter than one would expect at the
temperatures I see on my Fluke digital thermometer/datalogger.

I introduce the beans into the drum at a nominal drum temperature of ~370F,
which is a real temperature of 360 or below. I dump the beans generally
around 452-454F, which is a *real* temperature of maybe 440F, maximum, in
the bean mass. I would hesitate to take these numbers and to try to use
them in a different design of roaster.

ken