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Date: 11 May 2007 02:39:12
From: madmike
Subject: Shot timing
OK, I am a newbie here so please be gentle.
Just got me a Gaggia Classic.
I got a pair of shot glasses with it. But I make the cappucino
straight into the cup.
Is there a point where continuing to produce the coffee has a negative
effect ?
Is the shot meant to be a measure of the perfect coffee flow so that
any more is detrimental?

It is very tempting if making four cappucinos to just produce more
coffee from the same brew.
Is a shot glass twice the size just not the thing ????
Comments would be mucho appreciato





 
Date: 12 May 2007 00:28:26
From:
Subject: Re: Shot timing
On May 11, 4:39 am, madmike <michaelpr...@maxweb.co.uk > wrote:
> OK, I am a newbie here so please be gentle.
> Just got me a Gaggia Classic.
> I got a pair of shot glasses with it. But I make the cappucino
> straight into the cup.
> Is there a point where continuing to produce the coffee has a negative
> effect ?
> Is the shot meant to be a measure of the perfect coffee flow so that
> any more is detrimental?
>
> It is very tempting if making four cappucinos to just produce more
> coffee from the same brew.
> Is a shot glass twice the size just not the thing ????
> Comments would be mucho appreciato

dont be shy most are spammers hidding the fact their running a gay
website.tksthe guru



 
Date: 11 May 2007 16:07:09
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Shot timing
On May 11, 10:37 am, hfw <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> What about when I grind it a little too fine and it takes [sometimes
> considerably] longer than 25sec to get 1.5 oz. Nothing's blonding. Is
> there a point at which I should stop the pull? I've let it go almost a
> minute at times. It's been fine in a cappuccino, but my palate's not
> very educated for straight shots. (On the other hand, gushers *do taste
> bad even with milk).
>
> --Heidi

It that case, it can be an intersection between tamp, grind fineness,
or a quantity of beans you're grinding;- even in so few days beans set
up (out from roasting) to a lesser extent will effect the extraction.
Since my grinder is maxed out, anyway, I can say I prefer as fine a
grind as presently is possible. I may, however, at times in a good
headwind effectively stop the extraction by grinding too many beans,
or subsequently attempt too rigorous a tamp to account for what
amounts an overly prolonged extraction. (What I haven't done with a
recent espresso make, but formerly could, is to grind fine enough to a
blow a shot straight through the PF). Being neither an especially
retentive tamper, I side with the as light-a-tamp camp over as even-
grind distribution as possible. I've a 58 millimeter surface to tamp
and find employing the ancient "swirled-coin" tamp technique swift and
conducive. I have to allow sufficient ground amount and concentrate on
the tamp;- Significantly more of quantity is otherwise capable of
spoiling a perfectly good shot;- Anything less is piddling about in
single-shot territory. Allowing some discrepancy for extractions
longer than 25 seconds, then likely to be said within 45 seconds, I
shouldn't think to extend beyond as an extraction worthwhile to
endeavor. A quality of 2-minute extractions is not one to be
repeated. A quality of the coffee is optimally extracted, to rest
suspended over a bed of latte, and agreeably confer an aggregate of
two complimentary temperatures, in that the colloidal suspension is
then stirred within and beneath, so as to leave upper essences of
creme undisturbed, little different in appearance than would a
sprinkling of cinnamon across an upper crust of foam impart.



 
Date: 11 May 2007 11:24:09
From:
Subject: Re: Shot timing
I am new to this too and just purchased a Gaggia Evolution same guts
as your machine. I got a disk with my machine which has some very nice
instructions with video and narration which can help get you started.
If you didn't get the disk you may want to check with your retailer
and if they don't have it, Whole latte love has the disk for sale.

I also found a really good article about pulling shots which explains
a lot.
http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html



 
Date: 11 May 2007 08:18:13
From: madmike
Subject: Re: Shot timing
On May 11, 3:02 pm, Randy G. <f...@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
> Here is an experiment to test this yourself. Get a few shot glasses
> lined up and start the pull. Every five or ten seconds change the shot
> glasses under one of the spouts (or use a single spout if you have
> one). Let the pull go about 45 seconds or more, changing the glasses
> as mentioned above. Then taste them individually, rinsing your palate
> with some good water in between taste tests. let us know what you
> find... and letting us know what coffee beans you are using, how old
> they are, and what grinder you are using would also assist us in
> offering more advice.

OK Randy, thanks for the advice. I use a braun grinder which is a
blade type. I grind till the beans are a fine powder with some larger
bits still evident. Its not coarse nor fine.
The coffee at the moment is fair Trade Machu Pichu. Vacu sealed pack
opened yesterday, use by date is 2008.
I dont vary the grind according to the coffee type.
The shot is pulled into a cappucino cup untill it looks like the right
amount. I think I pull longer this way than with a shot glass, they
look so small. That was my question
about how long I can pull untill the coffee is degraded.
The observation method looks tricky as it is hard to say when the
crema stops and the weaker coffee starts to flow.
You method would help me to time it. So I can't just go on quantity
then ?



  
Date: 11 May 2007 13:41:41
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Shot timing
I would say your coffee is degraded before you even start. Remember, you
are asking coffee fanatics on this site. So most of us would tell you that
a blade grinder will not do for espresso. Grinding longer to get a fine
grind is burning the coffee and producing a lot of dust. The vacuum sealed
coffee "may" be good for up to two weeks from opening. Of course, it'a all
about taste in the cup. If you like what you are tasting, just ignore what
you read here.

"madmike" <michaelpratt@maxweb.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1178896693.440192.257410@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On May 11, 3:02 pm, Randy G. <f...@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>> Here is an experiment to test this yourself. Get a few shot glasses
>> lined up and start the pull. Every five or ten seconds change the shot
>> glasses under one of the spouts (or use a single spout if you have
>> one). Let the pull go about 45 seconds or more, changing the glasses
>> as mentioned above. Then taste them individually, rinsing your palate
>> with some good water in between taste tests. let us know what you
>> find... and letting us know what coffee beans you are using, how old
>> they are, and what grinder you are using would also assist us in
>> offering more advice.
>
> OK Randy, thanks for the advice. I use a braun grinder which is a
> blade type. I grind till the beans are a fine powder with some larger
> bits still evident. Its not coarse nor fine.
> The coffee at the moment is fair Trade Machu Pichu. Vacu sealed pack
> opened yesterday, use by date is 2008.
> I dont vary the grind according to the coffee type.
> The shot is pulled into a cappucino cup untill it looks like the right
> amount. I think I pull longer this way than with a shot glass, they
> look so small. That was my question
> about how long I can pull untill the coffee is degraded.
> The observation method looks tricky as it is hard to say when the
> crema stops and the weaker coffee starts to flow.
> You method would help me to time it. So I can't just go on quantity
> then ?
>




  
Date: 11 May 2007 11:40:56
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Shot timing
madmike <michaelpratt@maxweb.co.uk > wrote:

>OK Randy, thanks for the advice. I use a braun grinder which is a
>blade type. I grind till the beans are a fine powder with some larger
>bits still evident. Its not coarse nor fine.
>
The type with a single, spinning blade? Uhh... Don't want to be rude,
but throw it away unless you need it for herbs. Those are generally
only barely suitable for drip, but there is no debate that they are
totally unacceptable for espresso. The grinder is far more important
then the espresso machine. That whirley-blade grinder will create far
too much dust to be able to make espresso. I will guess that if you
sip a straight shot slowly (if you can with that grinder) that there
will be lots of 'fines' at the bottom of the cup. Those add a lot of
bitterness to the drink.

You __NEED__ to get a good grinder. Baratza, MDF, Rancilio Rocky-
whatever you can afford. The grinder is critical!

>The coffee at the moment is fair Trade Machu Pichu. Vacu sealed pack
>opened yesterday, use by date is 2008.
>
I am spoiled by home roasting. In my house, ten day old roast is at
the end of its useful life for espresso....

>I dont vary the grind according to the coffee type.
>
With that grinder you really can't. You have two settings with that
one- some dust and more dust. You would be __FAR__ better off with a
Zassenhaus hand grinder

>The shot is pulled into a cappucino cup untill it looks like the right
>amount. I think I pull longer this way than with a shot glass, they
>look so small.
>
Take a look at Chapter 32 on my website.

>That was my question
>about how long I can pull untill the coffee is degraded.
>
Well, I think with that grinder and coffee of such an unknown age, the
espresso is degraded when you turn the machine on to warm it up.. ;-)
Just kidding...

Seriously, find a local roaster where you can get fresh coffee (or
mail order really fresh coffee) and get a grinder for espresso.

>The observation method looks tricky as it is hard to say when the
>crema stops and the weaker coffee starts to flow.
>
It is easy, really. The flow will turn from a warm honey viscosity to
water. When the stream runs like water flowing from a faucet it has
gone too long.

>You method would help me to time it. So I can't just go on quantity
>then ?
>
Quantity is just one indicator that the shot MAY be good. The _only_
that will accurately and repeatedly tell you if the espresso is good
or not is your palate.


Randy "we all start somewhere, and all end up in the same place" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




   
Date: 15 May 2007 11:47:55
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Shot timing
Randy G. wrote:

> madmike <michaelpratt@maxweb.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>OK Randy, thanks for the advice. I use a braun grinder which is a
>>blade type. I grind till the beans are a fine powder with some larger
>>bits still evident. Its not coarse nor fine.
>>
>
> The type with a single, spinning blade? Uhh... Don't want to be rude,
> but throw it away unless you need it for herbs. Those are generally
> only barely suitable for drip, but there is no debate that they are
> totally unacceptable for espresso.

I used one before picking up a Gaggia MDF. One thing is for sure. You
cannot get a very consistent grind with blades. Some particles are
smaller than others, and if you don't time it right, it's inconsistent.
I *thought* I had trained myself to grind on it. ...and I was
probably doing the best I could hope for. But the MDF made a huge
difference in consistency.


   
Date: 11 May 2007 23:58:58
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Shot timing


 
Date: 11 May 2007 07:02:57
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Shot timing
Here is an experiment to test this yourself. Get a few shot glasses
lined up and start the pull. Every five or ten seconds change the shot
glasses under one of the spouts (or use a single spout if you have
one). Let the pull go about 45 seconds or more, changing the glasses
as mentioned above. Then taste them individually, rinsing your palate
with some good water in between taste tests. let us know what you
find... and letting us know what coffee beans you are using, how old
they are, and what grinder you are using would also assist us in
offering more advice.

Randy "another mad scientist in the making" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com



madmike <michaelpratt@maxweb.co.uk > wrote:
>
>OK, I am a newbie here so please be gentle.
>Just got me a Gaggia Classic.
>I got a pair of shot glasses with it. But I make the cappucino
>straight into the cup.
>Is there a point where continuing to produce the coffee has a negative
>effect ?
>Is the shot meant to be a measure of the perfect coffee flow so that
>any more is detrimental?
>
>It is very tempting if making four cappucinos to just produce more
>coffee from the same brew.
>Is a shot glass twice the size just not the thing ????
>Comments would be mucho appreciato


  
Date: 15 May 2007 11:44:58
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Shot timing
Randy G. wrote:

> Here is an experiment to test this yourself. Get a few shot glasses
> lined up and start the pull. Every five or ten seconds change the shot
> glasses under one of the spouts (or use a single spout if you have
> one). Let the pull go about 45 seconds or more, changing the glasses
> as mentioned above. Then taste them individually, rinsing your palate
> with some good water in between taste tests. let us know what you
> find... and letting us know what coffee beans you are using, how old
> they are, and what grinder you are using would also assist us in
> offering more advice.

That makes TOO MUCH SENSE. I don't know why I never thought about. I'm
also fairly novice, own a Gaggia Classic and MDF, and have recently been
comparing my espresso to locally available. I think I'm doing pretty
good, although I am noticing differences in roasting batches (hot air
popper). ...if I can only figure out what I like, and how to control it!

>
> Randy "another mad scientist in the making" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
>
> madmike <michaelpratt@maxweb.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>OK, I am a newbie here so please be gentle.
>>Just got me a Gaggia Classic.
>>I got a pair of shot glasses with it. But I make the cappucino
>>straight into the cup.
>>Is there a point where continuing to produce the coffee has a negative
>>effect ?
>>Is the shot meant to be a measure of the perfect coffee flow so that
>>any more is detrimental?
>>
>>It is very tempting if making four cappucinos to just produce more
>>coffee from the same brew.
>>Is a shot glass twice the size just not the thing ????
>>Comments would be mucho appreciato


  
Date: 11 May 2007 10:37:41
From: hfw
Subject: Re: Shot timing
What about when I grind it a little too fine and it takes [sometimes
considerably] longer than 25sec to get 1.5 oz. Nothing's blonding. Is
there a point at which I should stop the pull? I've let it go almost a
minute at times. It's been fine in a cappuccino, but my palate's not
very educated for straight shots. (On the other hand, gushers *do taste
bad even with milk).

--Heidi



   
Date: 11 May 2007 18:46:45
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Shot timing
On Fri, 11 May 2007 10:37:41 -0400, hfw <nospam@nospam.com > wrote:

>What about when I grind it a little too fine and it takes [sometimes
>considerably] longer than 25sec to get 1.5 oz. Nothing's blonding. Is
>there a point at which I should stop the pull? I've let it go almost a
>minute at times. It's been fine in a cappuccino, but my palate's not
>very educated for straight shots. (On the other hand, gushers *do taste
>bad even with milk).
>
>--Heidi

Heidi,

You've entered the zone where personal preference matters. 25 seconds
is not a magic number. If you're pulling doubles, and you're still
getting nicely colored shots, fool around between 25 and 40 seconds,
and see what tastes best to you (at that 1.5 to 2.0 ounce volume for a
double).



 
Date: 11 May 2007 08:18:48
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Shot timing
Don't give in to temptation. More espresso isn't good. You will be
overextracting all the elements and flavors that you want to stay in the
puck. The quick answer is stop when the coffee starts to "blond" [turn pale
in color]. Then read your instruction manual. Of course, if you do not
have a good espresso grinder and fresh roasted coffee, none of this is
likely to happen. Good luck.

"madmike" <michaelpratt@maxweb.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1178876352.940197.197780@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> OK, I am a newbie here so please be gentle.
> Just got me a Gaggia Classic.
> I got a pair of shot glasses with it. But I make the cappucino
> straight into the cup.
> Is there a point where continuing to produce the coffee has a negative
> effect ?
> Is the shot meant to be a measure of the perfect coffee flow so that
> any more is detrimental?
>
> It is very tempting if making four cappucinos to just produce more
> coffee from the same brew.
> Is a shot glass twice the size just not the thing ????
> Comments would be mucho appreciato
>