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Date: 30 Oct 2006 12:33:58
From: phreaddy
Subject: Silvia PID
Thanks for all the feedback, folks. I'm starting a new thread here,
because I've settled on the PID idea. Is it worth getting the dual
setpoint for steaming, as long as I'm spending that much to begin with?
What type of controller should I get? MLG or HiTech? Can I see a show
of hands? I don't mind doing the work myself as described at MLG, but I
definitely wouldn't want to do it from scratch.





 
Date: 31 Oct 2006 08:06:00
From: daveb
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
No discount, but then you need to ask Ian.

Dave
145.5

www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 31 Oct 2006 07:31:06
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
Just out of curiousity, Dave, how much of a discount do you give to
Ian?



daveb wrote:
> No one has more experience in installing 'pid' controllers in espresso
> machines.
>
> 145 silvias in a little over a year -- now with dual display and
> selectable profiles for 'pid' coffee and steaming.
>
> (not counting the other machines - Quickmills Eliane / Alexia. Vetrano
> and Isomacs (Teas and Milleniums)
>
> over $16,000 in sales in the last 30 days. $3,573 in the last DAY.
>
> Zero complaints, zero returns. You already know the names of some of
> my illustrious friends / customers. Toll free phone access and full
> support - NOT a hobby.
>
> coming soon? QM Andreja series and Bricoletta
>
> Thank you!
>
> Dave
> www.hitechespresso.com



  
Date: 31 Oct 2006 19:31:27
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
On 31 Oct 2006 07:31:06 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Just out of curiousity, Dave, how much of a discount do you give to
>Ian?
>

ZERO.

Did my own PID installation with components purchased at MSRP from
Dave.

By mutual agreement, Dave added a small 'consultation and handling
fee' to cover his time on the phone and spent to assemble the 'kit' of
parts.

Best money I ever spent!


 
Date: 31 Oct 2006 03:13:55
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
I- >Ian wrote:

> FWIW, your kit component photo on Randy's review looks quite nice and
> only appears to lack a fuse and a packet of thermal grease or 3M 8810
> tape or equivalent. No mention was made of either in the review, so
> I'm assuming not included.

Heat sink compound is/was included, but no fuse.

Jim
www.pidkits.com



 
Date: 31 Oct 2006 00:00:32
From: daveb
Subject: " PID" experience
No one has more experience in installing 'pid' controllers in espresso
machines.

145 silvias in a little over a year -- now with dual display and
selectable profiles for 'pid' coffee and steaming.

(not counting the other machines - Quickmills Eliane / Alexia. Vetrano
and Isomacs (Teas and Milleniums)

over $16,000 in sales in the last 30 days. $3,573 in the last DAY.

Zero complaints, zero returns. You already know the names of some of
my illustrious friends / customers. Toll free phone access and full
support - NOT a hobby.

coming soon? QM Andreja series and Bricoletta

Thank you!

Dave
www.hitechespresso.com



  
Date: 31 Oct 2006 17:33:46
From: Danny
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
daveb wrote:
> No one has more experience in installing 'pid' controllers in espresso
> machines.
>
> 145 silvias in a little over a year -- now with dual display and
> selectable profiles for 'pid' coffee and steaming.
>-snip-

With over 3 PID's per week I'm surprised you find the time to post
here as often as you do...


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)



   
Date: 31 Oct 2006 19:18:39
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:33:46 +0000, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

>daveb wrote:
>> No one has more experience in installing 'pid' controllers in espresso
>> machines.
>>
>> 145 silvias in a little over a year -- now with dual display and
>> selectable profiles for 'pid' coffee and steaming.
>>-snip-
>
>With over 3 PID's per week I'm surprised you find the time to post
>here as often as you do...

Let's assume Dave takes twice as long as Harmon... that leaves him
38.5 hours per 40 hour work week to post here. Sweet!


    
Date: 31 Oct 2006 19:25:47
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:8a8fk2h1tnu6ea3m39q1lk9o5148lv8674@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:33:46 +0000, Danny
> <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>>
>>With over 3 PID's per week I'm surprised you find the time to post
>>here as often as you do...
>
> Let's assume Dave takes twice as long as Harmon... that leaves him
> 38.5 hours per 40 hour work week to post here. Sweet!
>

Case closed.

Robert (Irony is lost on the witless!) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.


     
Date: 31 Oct 2006 19:58:41
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 19:25:47 GMT, Robert Harmon
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>Robert (Irony is lost on the witless!) Harmon

As is sarcasm and facetiousness


  
Date: 31 Oct 2006 09:24:49
From: notbob
Subject: Re: " PID" experience
On 2006-10-31, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

> 145 silvias in a little over a year.....

Wow! If you get up to 145 a week, you'll be qualified for a job as an
uneducated third world sweatshop employee. Jinkies!

nb


 
Date: 30 Oct 2006 19:24:40
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
I- >Ian wrote:

> - Where and how is the SSR mounted?
> There are some nighte installations where the SSR is stuck, not
> bolted, to the painted sheet metal of the machine ABOVE the boiler.
> When the boiler is heating, the SSR may get hot enough to scorch the
> paint and loosen the stick-on mount. It certainly gets hot enough to
> cause a painful burn should someone touch the chassis at the SSR. Such
> an installation is woefully inadequate in terms of environmental
> considerations and heat dissipation. Adequate 10A heat sinking in a
> 40=B0C environment requires mounting to a 100cm=B2 x 3mm aluminum plate or
> equivalent with thermal compound. 040 Stainless is a much poorer
> thermal conductor than aluminum. The SSR should be mounted in the
> coolest part of the machine on the largest panel, preferably with
> additional heatsink. If it's not, then hopefully when the SSR fails,
> it fails OFF.
>

Ian -

You raise some very good questions, all of I would hope are addressed
with any PID installation (kit, DIY, or professional). Some of the
online DIY recipes do not handle all of these issues well, IMHO,
particularly in the areas of wire specifications and SSR terminal
protection. But I want to share some data that contradicts your
warnings regarding the heat generated by the SSR installed in a Silvia.

The time required to move the Silvia boiler from ambient to brew temp
(20C to 108C) is less than 5 minutes. Time required to go from brew
temp to steam temp is less than 2 minutes. Those are the only two
conditions when max power is directed through the SSR (around 8A for
110V models, 5A for 220V) for any significant duration.

During those periods of maximum power output, the energy dissipated by
the SSR would be less than 13 watts if the voltage drop across the SSR
were the 1.6V maximum per ratings. In practice, the measured drop is
actually closer to 0.6V. So worst case in practice is the SSR has to
dissipate approx. 5 watts for a period of 5 minutes. During idle, it
only has to dissipate an average of around 1/2 watt. For 220V systems,
those figures are even less.

Direct testing has confirmed that the amount of heat generated during
peak power output is only enough to make the SSR base mildly warm to
the touch. It can easily be held in the palm of your hand.

While the machine is idling at setpoint, the duty cycle averages around
10%. The SSR can run for hours on end at this duty cycle with
virtually no observable increase in temperature, whether sitting out on
a test bench or installed inside the machine (it actually cools off
while idling).

There are many bad places to mount the SSR (above the boiler is one of
them), but none of them is bad because the SSR is going to generate
enough heat to burn a painted surface. Based on running dozens and
dozens of SSR's for hours in a test environment, I know that 25A and
50A SSR's just don't generate much heat in this application.

But since it costs almost nothing to put a thin layer of heat sink
compound on the back of the SSR and then firmly bolt it to the steel
frame, it probably should be done anyway as an ounce of prevention.
But there is really no need to go overboard with heat sinking.

Jim
www.pidkits.com



  
Date: 31 Oct 2006 06:09:14
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
On 30 Oct 2006 19:24:40 -0800, "jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote:

>I->Ian wrote:
>
>> - Where and how is the SSR mounted?
>> There are some nighte installations where the SSR is stuck, not
>> bolted, to the painted sheet metal of the machine ABOVE the boiler.
>> When the boiler is heating, the SSR may get hot enough to scorch the
>> paint and loosen the stick-on mount. It certainly gets hot enough to
>> cause a painful burn should someone touch the chassis at the SSR. Such
>> an installation is woefully inadequate in terms of environmental
>> considerations and heat dissipation. Adequate 10A heat sinking in a
>> 40C environment requires mounting to a 100cm x 3mm aluminum plate or
>> equivalent with thermal compound. 040 Stainless is a much poorer
>> thermal conductor than aluminum. The SSR should be mounted in the
>> coolest part of the machine on the largest panel, preferably with
>> additional heatsink. If it's not, then hopefully when the SSR fails,
>> it fails OFF.
>>
>
>Ian -
>
>You raise some very good questions, all of I would hope are addressed
>with any PID installation (kit, DIY, or professional). Some of the
>online DIY recipes do not handle all of these issues well, IMHO,
>particularly in the areas of wire specifications and SSR terminal
>protection. But I want to share some data that contradicts your
>warnings regarding the heat generated by the SSR installed in a Silvia.
>
>The time required to move the Silvia boiler from ambient to brew temp
>(20C to 108C) is less than 5 minutes. Time required to go from brew
>temp to steam temp is less than 2 minutes. Those are the only two
>conditions when max power is directed through the SSR (around 8A for
>110V models, 5A for 220V) for any significant duration.
>
>During those periods of maximum power output, the energy dissipated by
>the SSR would be less than 13 watts if the voltage drop across the SSR
>were the 1.6V maximum per ratings. In practice, the measured drop is
>actually closer to 0.6V. So worst case in practice is the SSR has to
>dissipate approx. 5 watts for a period of 5 minutes. During idle, it
>only has to dissipate an average of around 1/2 watt. For 220V systems,
>those figures are even less.
>
>Direct testing has confirmed that the amount of heat generated during
>peak power output is only enough to make the SSR base mildly warm to
>the touch. It can easily be held in the palm of your hand.
>
>While the machine is idling at setpoint, the duty cycle averages around
>10%. The SSR can run for hours on end at this duty cycle with
>virtually no observable increase in temperature, whether sitting out on
>a test bench or installed inside the machine (it actually cools off
>while idling).
>
>There are many bad places to mount the SSR (above the boiler is one of
>them), but none of them is bad because the SSR is going to generate
>enough heat to burn a painted surface. Based on running dozens and
>dozens of SSR's for hours in a test environment, I know that 25A and
>50A SSR's just don't generate much heat in this application.
>
>But since it costs almost nothing to put a thin layer of heat sink
>compound on the back of the SSR and then firmly bolt it to the steel
>frame, it probably should be done anyway as an ounce of prevention.
>But there is really no need to go overboard with heat sinking.
>
>Jim
>www.pidkits.com

My comments were not directed at just Silvia installations, but all.
There are many PID modification posts extant that border on lunacy.

For example, a machine with a reasonable sized boiler will have the
SSR for many multiples of 5 minutes and will definitely get hot enough
to cause a painful burn if not adequately cooled.

A problem could arise if a DIYer uses a kit suitable for a Silvia
class machine and tries to install same on a Junior.

With a well insulated large boiler, the SSR idle duty cycle is far
less than 10%, hopefully somewhere south of 2%.

FWIW, your kit component photo on Randy's review looks quite nice and
only appears to lack a fuse and a packet of thermal grease or 3M 8810
tape or equivalent. No mention was made of either in the review, so
I'm assuming not included.



   
Date: 31 Oct 2006 01:44:35
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Silvia PID

"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:brodk2d9llfio1ro6l7g5c1363aeob6b7s@4ax.com...
> On 30 Oct 2006 19:24:40 -0800, "jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I->Ian wrote:
>>
>>> - Where and how is the SSR mounted?
>>> There are some nighte installations where the SSR is stuck, not
>>> bolted, to the painted sheet metal of the machine ABOVE the boiler.
>>> When the boiler is heating, the SSR may get hot enough to scorch the
>>> paint and loosen the stick-on mount. It certainly gets hot enough to
>>> cause a painful burn should someone touch the chassis at the SSR.
>>> Such
>>> an installation is woefully inadequate in terms of environmental
>>> considerations and heat dissipation. Adequate 10A heat sinking in a
>>> 40C environment requires mounting to a 100cm x 3mm aluminum plate
>>> or
>>> equivalent with thermal compound. 040 Stainless is a much poorer
>>> thermal conductor than aluminum. The SSR should be mounted in the
>>> coolest part of the machine on the largest panel, preferably with
>>> additional heatsink. If it's not, then hopefully when the SSR fails,
>>> it fails OFF.
>>>
>>
>>Ian -
>>
>>You raise some very good questions, all of I would hope are addressed
>>with any PID installation (kit, DIY, or professional). Some of the
>>online DIY recipes do not handle all of these issues well, IMHO,
>>particularly in the areas of wire specifications and SSR terminal
>>protection. But I want to share some data that contradicts your
>>warnings regarding the heat generated by the SSR installed in a
>>Silvia.
>>
>>The time required to move the Silvia boiler from ambient to brew temp
>>(20C to 108C) is less than 5 minutes. Time required to go from brew
>>temp to steam temp is less than 2 minutes. Those are the only two
>>conditions when max power is directed through the SSR (around 8A for
>>110V models, 5A for 220V) for any significant duration.
>>
>>During those periods of maximum power output, the energy dissipated by
>>the SSR would be less than 13 watts if the voltage drop across the SSR
>>were the 1.6V maximum per ratings. In practice, the measured drop is
>>actually closer to 0.6V. So worst case in practice is the SSR has to
>>dissipate approx. 5 watts for a period of 5 minutes. During idle, it
>>only has to dissipate an average of around 1/2 watt. For 220V
>>systems,
>>those figures are even less.
>>
>>Direct testing has confirmed that the amount of heat generated during
>>peak power output is only enough to make the SSR base mildly warm to
>>the touch. It can easily be held in the palm of your hand.
>>
>>While the machine is idling at setpoint, the duty cycle averages
>>around
>>10%. The SSR can run for hours on end at this duty cycle with
>>virtually no observable increase in temperature, whether sitting out
>>on
>>a test bench or installed inside the machine (it actually cools off
>>while idling).
>>
>>There are many bad places to mount the SSR (above the boiler is one of
>>them), but none of them is bad because the SSR is going to generate
>>enough heat to burn a painted surface. Based on running dozens and
>>dozens of SSR's for hours in a test environment, I know that 25A and
>>50A SSR's just don't generate much heat in this application.
>>
>>But since it costs almost nothing to put a thin layer of heat sink
>>compound on the back of the SSR and then firmly bolt it to the steel
>>frame, it probably should be done anyway as an ounce of prevention.
>>But there is really no need to go overboard with heat sinking.
>>
>>Jim
>>www.pidkits.com
>
> My comments were not directed at just Silvia installations, but all.
> There are many PID modification posts extant that border on lunacy.
>
> For example, a machine with a reasonable sized boiler will have the
> SSR for many multiples of 5 minutes and will definitely get hot enough
> to cause a painful burn if not adequately cooled.
>
> A problem could arise if a DIYer uses a kit suitable for a Silvia
> class machine and tries to install same on a Junior.
>
> With a well insulated large boiler, the SSR idle duty cycle is far
> less than 10%, hopefully somewhere south of 2%.
>
> FWIW, your kit component photo on Randy's review looks quite nice and
> only appears to lack a fuse and a packet of thermal grease or 3M 8810
> tape or equivalent. No mention was made of either in the review, so
> I'm assuming not included.
>


Hi Ian, my 2 line Watlow 965A PID kit (earlier model) with Crydom 25 amp
SSR had the thermal tape applied to the back of it.
Craig.



    
Date: 31 Oct 2006 06:54:46
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 01:44:35 -0500, "Craig Andrews"
<alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote:

>
>"I->Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:brodk2d9llfio1ro6l7g5c1363aeob6b7s@4ax.com...
>> On 30 Oct 2006 19:24:40 -0800, "jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I->Ian wrote:
>>>
>>>> - Where and how is the SSR mounted?
>>>> There are some nighte installations where the SSR is stuck, not
>>>> bolted, to the painted sheet metal of the machine ABOVE the boiler.
>>>> When the boiler is heating, the SSR may get hot enough to scorch the
>>>> paint and loosen the stick-on mount. It certainly gets hot enough to
>>>> cause a painful burn should someone touch the chassis at the SSR.
>>>> Such
>>>> an installation is woefully inadequate in terms of environmental
>>>> considerations and heat dissipation. Adequate 10A heat sinking in a
>>>> 40C environment requires mounting to a 100cm x 3mm aluminum plate
>>>> or
>>>> equivalent with thermal compound. 040 Stainless is a much poorer
>>>> thermal conductor than aluminum. The SSR should be mounted in the
>>>> coolest part of the machine on the largest panel, preferably with
>>>> additional heatsink. If it's not, then hopefully when the SSR fails,
>>>> it fails OFF.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ian -
>>>
>>>You raise some very good questions, all of I would hope are addressed
>>>with any PID installation (kit, DIY, or professional). Some of the
>>>online DIY recipes do not handle all of these issues well, IMHO,
>>>particularly in the areas of wire specifications and SSR terminal
>>>protection. But I want to share some data that contradicts your
>>>warnings regarding the heat generated by the SSR installed in a
>>>Silvia.
>>>
>>>The time required to move the Silvia boiler from ambient to brew temp
>>>(20C to 108C) is less than 5 minutes. Time required to go from brew
>>>temp to steam temp is less than 2 minutes. Those are the only two
>>>conditions when max power is directed through the SSR (around 8A for
>>>110V models, 5A for 220V) for any significant duration.
>>>
>>>During those periods of maximum power output, the energy dissipated by
>>>the SSR would be less than 13 watts if the voltage drop across the SSR
>>>were the 1.6V maximum per ratings. In practice, the measured drop is
>>>actually closer to 0.6V. So worst case in practice is the SSR has to
>>>dissipate approx. 5 watts for a period of 5 minutes. During idle, it
>>>only has to dissipate an average of around 1/2 watt. For 220V
>>>systems,
>>>those figures are even less.
>>>
>>>Direct testing has confirmed that the amount of heat generated during
>>>peak power output is only enough to make the SSR base mildly warm to
>>>the touch. It can easily be held in the palm of your hand.
>>>
>>>While the machine is idling at setpoint, the duty cycle averages
>>>around
>>>10%. The SSR can run for hours on end at this duty cycle with
>>>virtually no observable increase in temperature, whether sitting out
>>>on
>>>a test bench or installed inside the machine (it actually cools off
>>>while idling).
>>>
>>>There are many bad places to mount the SSR (above the boiler is one of
>>>them), but none of them is bad because the SSR is going to generate
>>>enough heat to burn a painted surface. Based on running dozens and
>>>dozens of SSR's for hours in a test environment, I know that 25A and
>>>50A SSR's just don't generate much heat in this application.
>>>
>>>But since it costs almost nothing to put a thin layer of heat sink
>>>compound on the back of the SSR and then firmly bolt it to the steel
>>>frame, it probably should be done anyway as an ounce of prevention.
>>>But there is really no need to go overboard with heat sinking.
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>www.pidkits.com
>>
>> My comments were not directed at just Silvia installations, but all.
>> There are many PID modification posts extant that border on lunacy.
>>
>> For example, a machine with a reasonable sized boiler will have the
>> SSR for many multiples of 5 minutes and will definitely get hot enough
>> to cause a painful burn if not adequately cooled.
>>
>> A problem could arise if a DIYer uses a kit suitable for a Silvia
>> class machine and tries to install same on a Junior.
>>
>> With a well insulated large boiler, the SSR idle duty cycle is far
>> less than 10%, hopefully somewhere south of 2%.
>>
>> FWIW, your kit component photo on Randy's review looks quite nice and
>> only appears to lack a fuse and a packet of thermal grease or 3M 8810
>> tape or equivalent. No mention was made of either in the review, so
>> I'm assuming not included.
>>
>
>
>Hi Ian, my 2 line Watlow 965A PID kit (earlier model) with Crydom 25 amp
>SSR had the thermal tape applied to the back of it.
>Craig.

Cool


  
Date: 31 Oct 2006 05:01:51
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
"jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote in news:1162265080.129276.34220
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> But there is really no need to go overboard with heat sinking.
>
> Jim
> www.pidkits.com
>
>

Thank you Jim!

It may be that people ignore good advice & choose to heed bad advice, but
if they ignore the voice of experience they're fools.

Robert (The secret is knowing whom to listen to.) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.


 
Date: 30 Oct 2006 14:46:52
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Silvia PID

I- >Ian wrote:

> Stainless steel is difficult to machine. Unless you have the requisite
> tools, and lots of time and patience, a professional installation may
> make more sense.

Very true.

Stainless is a relatively hard metal. And it does not have the nice
elastic-plastic stress-strain behavior of mild carbon steel. This
makes it much more difficult to drill, punch, and form than other
common sheet metals. Further, when working on a piece that needs to be
free of scratches, you must work with stock that has a heat resistant
plastic protective sheet on the "good" side.

The production of PID enclosures requires a heavy duty box-and-pan
brake, a straight bending brake, a commercial throatless shear, a 5-ton
punch, and a custom spot welder. This is in addition to hand tools and
Dremel tools.

It is not cost effective to put together that type of shop setup for a
single project. But when the cost can be spread over 125+ units it
becomes fairly reasonable.

Jim
www.pidkits.com


Jim
www.pidkits.com



  
Date: 30 Oct 2006 18:17:11
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Silvia PID

"jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1162248412.641928.137790@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I->Ian wrote:
>
>> Stainless steel is difficult to machine. Unless you have the
>> requisite
>> tools, and lots of time and patience, a professional installation may
>> make more sense.
>
> Very true.
>
> Stainless is a relatively hard metal. And it does not have the nice
> elastic-plastic stress-strain behavior of mild carbon steel. This
> makes it much more difficult to drill, punch, and form than other
> common sheet metals. Further, when working on a piece that needs to
> be
> free of scratches, you must work with stock that has a heat resistant
> plastic protective sheet on the "good" side.
>
> The production of PID enclosures requires a heavy duty box-and-pan
> brake, a straight bending brake, a commercial throatless shear, a
> 5-ton
> punch, and a custom spot welder. This is in addition to hand tools
> and
> Dremel tools.
>
> It is not cost effective to put together that type of shop setup for a
> single project. But when the cost can be spread over 125+ units it
> becomes fairly reasonable.
>
> Jim
> www.pidkits.com
>
>

I couldn't be happier with my kit Jim!
Absolutely pristine stainless steel, black plastic "L" bracket & the top
& bottom black plastic covers for the Watlow controller. Not one spec of
a k or ring on ANY of this, including the face of the Watlow 965A,
body, SSR., perfect!! {:-D
Cheers!
Sincerely,
Craig.



   
Date: 31 Oct 2006 01:54:40
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote:
>I couldn't be happier with my kit Jim!
>Absolutely pristine stainless steel, black plastic "L" bracket & the top
>& bottom black plastic covers for the Watlow controller. Not one spec of
>a k or ring on ANY of this, including the face of the Watlow 965A,
>body, SSR., perfect!! {:-D
>Cheers!
>Sincerely,
>Craig.

Here are some questions which should be answered before starting :

- What is the internal temperature of the PID enclosure?
Every 10C rise in temperature halves the life of PID the components.
When the PID simulated TC cold junction changes temperature
drastically, accuracy is degraded.

- Is the PID fused?
What happens when the PID eats its cookies? Seldom is the PID AC power
wiring capable of carrying the full 15 or 20 amp current required to
trip a circuit breaker before the wire itself combusts or gets hot
enough to melt through convoluted plastic tubing.

- Where and how is the SSR mounted?
There are some nighte installations where the SSR is stuck, not
bolted, to the painted sheet metal of the machine ABOVE the boiler.
When the boiler is heating, the SSR may get hot enough to scorch the
paint and loosen the stick-on mount. It certainly gets hot enough to
cause a painful burn should someone touch the chassis at the SSR. Such
an installation is woefully inadequate in terms of environmental
considerations and heat dissipation. Adequate 10A heat sinking in a
40C environment requires mounting to a 100cm x 3mm aluminum plate or
equivalent with thermal compound. 040 Stainless is a much poorer
thermal conductor than aluminum. The SSR should be mounted in the
coolest part of the machine on the largest panel, preferably with
additional heatsink. If it's not, then hopefully when the SSR fails,
it fails OFF.

- If the wires are not preterminated, do you have wire cutters,
strippers and ratchet crimper to make UL / EC / MilSpec connections?
If not, make sure fire and liability insurance is paid up.

- Do you have any experience routing wire in a high temp / high
current environment?

Robert Harmon<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
>Four wires to connect
I count a minimum of 10 wires :
1 - Power Switch to PID Fuse
2 - Fuse to PID AC Line
3 - PID AC Neutral
4 - SSR Control +
5 - SSR Control -
6 - Element to SSR
7 - SSR AC Neutral
8 - TC+
9 - TC-
10 - PID chassis earth

>programming for the PID took three minutes.
Amazing!

> the job was finished during half-time of the Texans game
Hopefully started during the pre game show

> (Why pay someone to do something so simple?)
Warranty?
Safety?
Liability?


    
Date: 30 Oct 2006 22:07:09
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
The truly clueless should not be messing with line voltage but for people
who are comfortable around electrical work doing a PID is not rocket
science. I dislike the "only professionals should touch this - amateurs can
cause a nuclear explosion" scare tactic. I was just reading tonite about a
(completely false) urban legend (perhaps spread by locksmiths?) about a cop
who was killed when his slim jim set off a side door airbag. This rumor was
so persistent the NTSB had to issue a bulletin to the effect that it is
impossible to set off an airbag in this way.

Personally I think it's better to get the PID outside of the main espresso
machine enclosure but saying every 10 degrees 1/2s the life doesn't mean
much - is the life 40 years and halving it means it will be only 20?

A 1 amp in-line fuse in the PID power wire is a good precaution and costs
very little.

The SSR heating is really only an issue when the machine is coming up to
temp and the element is running continuously. During the normal duty cycle
usually the body of the machine is an adequate heat sink and things don't
get very hot.

I don't know why you'd need Milspec connections - were you planning to
launch your machine into space?

Routing wires is just common sense - I was not particularly impressed with
the factory routing job and felt that I did just as well. I remember that
when I bought my Chrysler van some of the wire bundles were held together
with friction tape and within days of delivery the heat of the engine
compartment caused the tape to unstick.




"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:g27dk2t8v54mg7sm1iqvap4ap5sd899f5k@4ax.com...
>
> Here are some questions which should be answered before starting :
>
> - What is the internal temperature of the PID enclosure?
> Every 10C rise in temperature halves the life of PID the components.
> When the PID simulated TC cold junction changes temperature
> drastically, accuracy is degraded.
>
> - Is the PID fused?
> What happens when the PID eats its cookies? Seldom is the PID AC power
> wiring capable of carrying the full 15 or 20 amp current required to
> trip a circuit breaker before the wire itself combusts or gets hot
> enough to melt through convoluted plastic tubing.
>
> - Where and how is the SSR mounted?
> There are some nighte installations where the SSR is stuck, not
> bolted, to the painted sheet metal of the machine ABOVE the boiler.
> When the boiler is heating, the SSR may get hot enough to scorch the
> paint and loosen the stick-on mount. It certainly gets hot enough to
> cause a painful burn should someone touch the chassis at the SSR. Such
> an installation is woefully inadequate in terms of environmental
> considerations and heat dissipation. Adequate 10A heat sinking in a
> 40C environment requires mounting to a 100cm x 3mm aluminum plate or
> equivalent with thermal compound. 040 Stainless is a much poorer
> thermal conductor than aluminum. The SSR should be mounted in the
> coolest part of the machine on the largest panel, preferably with
> additional heatsink. If it's not, then hopefully when the SSR fails,
> it fails OFF.
>
> - If the wires are not preterminated, do you have wire cutters,
> strippers and ratchet crimper to make UL / EC / MilSpec connections?
> If not, make sure fire and liability insurance is paid up.
>
> - Do you have any experience routing wire in a high temp / high
> current environment?




     
Date: 31 Oct 2006 06:50:33
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:07:09 -0500, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>The truly clueless
rarely know that and unless they receive guidance, they are more
likely than not to build a time bomb.

> I dislike the "only professionals should touch this - amateurs can
>cause a nuclear explosion" scare tactic.
Installing a PID is child's play compared to wiring up a home theater
system. The difference is an error is one much less disastrous than
the other.

>Personally I think it's better to get the PID outside of the main espresso
>machine enclosure but saying every 10 degrees 1/2s the life doesn't mean
>much - is the life 40 years and halving it means it will be only 20?
Agreed on location:
http://www.ielogical.com/coffee/PIDLoc.JPG. With the ventilation slots
and 3M 8810 thermal tape, the PID housing runs < 2C above ambient
after many hours of operation.

About ten years ago we replaced many millions of capacitors because
due to a design flaw, they did not meet the 105C rating parameters and
failed within a very short period of a couple or three years.

The good news is the replacements, from a different manufacturer, did
not last either so we got to do it again. The bad news is the
replacements leaked the electrolyte across the power busses, causing
more than one fire.

In both instances, the environment was far below the specified safe
operating area and both manufacturers signed off on the operating
environment. One never knows what hidden flaws are designed in, so
erring on the cool side pays dividends.

>I don't know why you'd need Milspec connections
because they rarely fail. If you know what makes a MilSpec crimp,
you're unlikey to use some flimsy cheeso 49 cent crimper that flattens
the crimp instead of rolling it properly into the wire. Cheeso crimps
have a nasty habit of loosening over time due to thermal cycling, with
the attendant risk of failure.

>Routing wires is just common sense
If it's so common, why are the factory jobs such a mess?



      
Date: 31 Oct 2006 12:44:10
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Silvia PID

"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:p4qdk2pq1lq5lihudbips2srfo1rcmmhhl@4ax.com...
>:
>
>>The truly clueless
> rarely know that and unless they receive guidance, they are more
> likely than not to build a time bomb.

If you are really really clueless you'll get a Darwin award eventually one
way or another. Most sensible people have a comfort level as to what they
will mess with and what they won't - if you are comfortable say changing a
breaker in your home electrical panel or connecting a gas hot water heater,
then a PID should be in range. If you are a "hook up the stereo, connect the
monitor to the PC" guy then it's a bit over your head.


>
>> I dislike the "only professionals should touch this - amateurs can
>>cause a nuclear explosion" scare tactic.
> Installing a PID is child's play compared to wiring up a home theater
> system. The difference is an error is one much less disastrous than
> the other.

Most of the failure modes will not be disastrous especially if you are
plugged into a GFCI and the espresso machine has a high limit thermostat.




snip
>
>>Routing wires is just common sense
> If it's so common, why are the factory jobs such a mess?
>
As someone pointed out, it's not hard to do better than that, so you
contradict yourself.




      
Date: 31 Oct 2006 07:48:55
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 06:50:33 GMT, I- >Ian <someone@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:07:09 -0500, "Jack Denver"
>
> >Routing wires is just common sense
> If it's so common, why are the factory jobs such a mess?

Make your mind up. You're the one arguing for a prefoessional job,
remember. Now you're saying teh professional job's crap too.

So, may as well do it yourself.

(Much of teh rest of your argument is similarly weak.)

regards, Ian SMith
--


 
Date: 30 Oct 2006 14:11:02
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Silvia PID

Rusty wrote:
> If you get the dual setpoint it will increase the time Silvia takes to reach
> steaming temp.

Not necessarily. The trick is to use a SP that is a little higher than
your intended steaming temp. In your example of starting to steam at
140C (285F), then you would probably use a setpoint of 150C (300F).

Heating is almost completely linear between 108C (227F) and 140C (285F)
and at the same rate as non-PID control.

With the PID running things, you don't have to worry about the heater
switching off if you are a bit slow with getting your pitcher prepared.

Other reason to consider PID steam control is better control over the
high end temperature. Stock steam tstat's are all over the place. I
have seen them with "off" points as low as 285F and overshoot temps
that go as high as 323F.

PID steam control is a luxury, not a necessity. But if you have a
controller that can accept event input, and can be programmed with a
2nd setpoint, then there is very little additional expense in
controlling the steam temp.

Jim
www.pidkits.com



 
Date: 30 Oct 2006 21:40:49
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
On 30 Oct 2006 12:33:58 -0800, "phreaddy" <phreaddy@gmail.com > wrote:

> MLG or HiTech?

Stainless steel is difficult to machine. Unless you have the requisite
tools, and lots of time and patience, a professional installation may
make more sense.

IMO, Silvia is no beauty queen.
Add a "wart" and a "snake"... <shudder >


  
Date: 30 Oct 2006 22:43:05
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:jrrck2h0h3inb7bban8f0oi9gbvrcbpkii@4ax.com:

> On 30 Oct 2006 12:33:58 -0800, "phreaddy" <phreaddy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> MLG or HiTech?
>
> Stainless steel is difficult to machine. Unless you have the requisite
> tools, and lots of time and patience, a professional installation may
> make more sense.
>
> IMO, Silvia is no beauty queen.
> Add a "wart" and a "snake"... <shudder>

I just did a PID for a friends Gaggia Classic & unless there's a 'feature'
on the Silvia that I don't know about it's basically the same install. I
had to drill two holes for the SSR & two for the PID box. The TC was
attached to the steam thermostat boss. Four wires to connect & the
programming for the PID took three minutes. All told we spent $63,
including shipping & the job was finished during half-time of the Texans
game yesterday (Could've taken my time, we blew it!).

Robert (Why pay someone to do something so simple?) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.


  
Date: 30 Oct 2006 14:35:55
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Silvia PID
"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On 30 Oct 2006 12:33:58 -0800, "phreaddy" <phreaddy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> MLG or HiTech?
>
>Stainless steel is difficult to machine. Unless you have the requisite
>tools, and lots of time and patience, a professional installation may
>make more sense.
>
The MLG kit requires no machining of stainless or anything else.
If DIY is chosen, it is a (relatively) simple matter to mount a PID in
a generic external enclosure as I did with my original PID setup. The
only machining that might be required would be if the user decided to
mount the PID in Silvia with the readout visible.


Randy "see my MLG review" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




 
Date: 31 Oct 2006 07:55:23
From: Rusty
Subject: Re: Silvia PID

"phreaddy" <phreaddy@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1162240438.685782.114350@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for all the feedback, folks. I'm starting a new thread here,
> because I've settled on the PID idea. Is it worth getting the dual
> setpoint for steaming, as long as I'm spending that much to begin with?
> What type of controller should I get? MLG or HiTech? Can I see a show
> of hands? I don't mind doing the work myself as described at MLG, but I
> definitely wouldn't want to do it from scratch.
>

If you get the dual setpoint it will increase the time Silvia takes to reach
steaming temp. Not a good idea :-(

A single set point will still allow you to begin steaming when the temp
readout says 140C or whatever temp you choose.

Cheers,
Rusty