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Date: 03 Dec 2006 21:07:16
From:
Subject: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
I live in a small kitchen so counter space is very limited. I
understand that the Silvia is probably the best sub $1000 machine but
if I were to purchase it I would not have room for a grinder. I live
in NYC so I have a couple great coffee shops that grind fresh close by
but I realize this is a poor substitute for a home grinder.

An alternative is the La Pavoni Napolitana, it is an inferior machine
but has a built in grinder. Would the La Pavoni brewing with fresh
ground coffee be produce better results than the Silvia with nice
coffee ground at a store less than 3 days prior?

I am a bit concerned with the La Pavoni Napolitana since there seems to
be little info on it available and I am always wary of "combination"
style items (never as good as separate components).

Any thoughts? Thanks.





 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 12:51:07
From: Don C.
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder v
Its nice to see someone see reality in time without stubbornly holding
onto the notion that you might get by without a grinder. I fully agree
with Ken. I think you would be much happier using the counter space
that you do have for a grinder rather than an espresso machine. With a
good grinder there are many ways to make good coffee. Without one the
best you can do at any attempt is only passable.

randyl212-googlegro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Porto Rico (fairly well known place I think) coffee is about a 5 min
> walk from my apt and they will grind in small quantities although the
> more I read here make me think that grinding even a few hours before
> using would have a significant impact.
>
> Thanks everyone for your input.
>
> daveb wrote:
> > Cannot recommend any la pavoni.
> > and the combos are a bad deal -- just as in Stereo.
> >
> > In NYC, your coffee supplier might be a very short walk. perhaps they
> > could grind you small quantities to last a day or 2 for you??
> >
> > that would be an OK compromise, maybe.
> >
> >
> > dave
> > 877 286 2833



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 12:39:11
From:
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder v
Porto Rico (fairly well known place I think) coffee is about a 5 min
walk from my apt and they will grind in small quantities although the
more I read here make me think that grinding even a few hours before
using would have a significant impact.

Thanks everyone for your input.

daveb wrote:
> Cannot recommend any la pavoni.
> and the combos are a bad deal -- just as in Stereo.
>
> In NYC, your coffee supplier might be a very short walk. perhaps they
> could grind you small quantities to last a day or 2 for you??
>
> that would be an OK compromise, maybe.
>
>
> dave
> 877 286 2833



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 05:01:01
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder v
Cannot recommend any la pavoni.
and the combos are a bad deal -- just as in Stereo.

In NYC, your coffee supplier might be a very short walk. perhaps they
could grind you small quantities to last a day or 2 for you??

that would be an OK compromise, maybe.


dave
877 286 2833



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 04:28:32
From:
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
Thanks Ken,

I appreciate your advice. Perhaps, I will wait until I have a bigger
kitchen to buy a machine and just enjoy espressos at cafes in the mean
time.


Ken Fox wrote:
> <randyl212-googlegroups@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1165208836.412795.213500@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >I live in a small kitchen so counter space is very limited. I
> > understand that the Silvia is probably the best sub $1000 machine but
> > if I were to purchase it I would not have room for a grinder. I live
> > in NYC so I have a couple great coffee shops that grind fresh close by
> > but I realize this is a poor substitute for a home grinder.
> >
> > An alternative is the La Pavoni Napolitana, it is an inferior machine
> > but has a built in grinder. Would the La Pavoni brewing with fresh
> > ground coffee be produce better results than the Silvia with nice
> > coffee ground at a store less than 3 days prior?
> >
> > I am a bit concerned with the La Pavoni Napolitana since there seems to
> > be little info on it available and I am always wary of "combination"
> > style items (never as good as separate components).
> >
> > Any thoughts? Thanks.
> >
>
> any espresso machine setup without a grinder next to the machine will
> produce results barely better than you could get from those "instant"
> cappucino mixes one finds at the superket. Don't waste your time or
> money on any setup without a grinder. Any machine with a built in grinder
> is unlikely to be good. The only solution I can see in your situation would
> be to put the grinder in an adjacent area not far from the kitchen where you
> have your machine located. If you can't do this, in my opinion, you should
> not bother trying to make espresso at home and should go for something you
> can do well, like, for example, buying a decent grinder and making melita
> cone, vacuum pot, or presspot coffee. The latter sort of setup needn't cost
> you even $100, and will take very little counter space. The results however
> will be much better (for what they are) than the ersatz espresso you are
> going to get without a grinder, or from the sort of machine that is sold as
> a combination espresso machine plus grinder.
>
> ken



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 06:19:34
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
Look up "Imat Mokita Combi, Nemox dell'Opera" etc. All same machine.
Generally good, reliable espresso, biggest limitation is 57mm pf. See also
http://www.coffeeco.com.au/articles/comparison.html.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




  
Date: 04 Dec 2006 12:59:31
From: Coffee Contact
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana

"Coffee for Connoisseurs" <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote in message
news:W5Pch.2279$HU.955@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Look up "Imat Mokita Combi, Nemox dell'Opera" etc. All same machine.
> Generally good, reliable espresso, biggest limitation is 57mm pf. See also
> http://www.coffeeco.com.au/articles/comparison.html.
>
>
> --
> Alan


Have to agree with you. Good value, reliable machines, easily
repaired.

Terry M




 
Date: 03 Dec 2006 22:29:19
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
<randyl212-googlegroups@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1165208836.412795.213500@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>I live in a small kitchen so counter space is very limited. I
> understand that the Silvia is probably the best sub $1000 machine but
> if I were to purchase it I would not have room for a grinder. I live
> in NYC so I have a couple great coffee shops that grind fresh close by
> but I realize this is a poor substitute for a home grinder.
>
> An alternative is the La Pavoni Napolitana, it is an inferior machine
> but has a built in grinder. Would the La Pavoni brewing with fresh
> ground coffee be produce better results than the Silvia with nice
> coffee ground at a store less than 3 days prior?
>
> I am a bit concerned with the La Pavoni Napolitana since there seems to
> be little info on it available and I am always wary of "combination"
> style items (never as good as separate components).
>
> Any thoughts? Thanks.
>

any espresso machine setup without a grinder next to the machine will
produce results barely better than you could get from those "instant"
cappucino mixes one finds at the superket. Don't waste your time or
money on any setup without a grinder. Any machine with a built in grinder
is unlikely to be good. The only solution I can see in your situation would
be to put the grinder in an adjacent area not far from the kitchen where you
have your machine located. If you can't do this, in my opinion, you should
not bother trying to make espresso at home and should go for something you
can do well, like, for example, buying a decent grinder and making melita
cone, vacuum pot, or presspot coffee. The latter sort of setup needn't cost
you even $100, and will take very little counter space. The results however
will be much better (for what they are) than the ersatz espresso you are
going to get without a grinder, or from the sort of machine that is sold as
a combination espresso machine plus grinder.

ken




  
Date: 05 Dec 2006 20:56:11
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
In article <4thq12F14ee72U1@mid.individual.net >,
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

> any espresso machine setup without a grinder next to the machine will
> produce results barely better than you could get from those "instant"
> cappucino mixes one finds at the superket.

Heavens, your taste is different from mine! I have a full blown
commercial setup at home - but a small single boiler machine at
work. There's a Saeco 2002 there, but circumstances are such that
I sometimes have to fall back on a vac packed brick of pre-ground.

The scale (best to worst goes:
1) Home HX + NS MDXA
4) Faema + 2002 at work
10) Faema + pre-ground
44,397) *$ across the street
99,437) Superket instant

Which is to say, push comes to shove and the need rises,
pre-ground is better than nought!

--
M for N in address to mail reply


   
Date: 06 Dec 2006 16:34:08
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:56:11 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca >
wrote:

>In article <4thq12F14ee72U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> any espresso machine setup without a grinder next to the machine will
>> produce results barely better than you could get from those "instant"
>> cappucino mixes one finds at the superket.
>
>Heavens, your taste is different from mine! I have a full blown
>commercial setup at home - but a small single boiler machine at
>work. There's a Saeco 2002 there, but circumstances are such that
>I sometimes have to fall back on a vac packed brick of pre-ground.
>
>The scale (best to worst goes:
>1) Home HX + NS MDXA
>4) Faema + 2002 at work
>10) Faema + pre-ground
>44,397) *$ across the street
>99,437) Superket instant
>
>Which is to say, push comes to shove and the need rises,
>pre-ground is better than nought!

I'm with Ken. Drip done well is far better than espresso done badly.

shall


    
Date: 07 Dec 2006 18:17:35
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
In article <b5sdn29ce4ckmt1ifj72qj071cjttgv8rl@4ax.com >,
shall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:56:11 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca>
> wrote
> >The scale (best to worst goes:
> >1) Home HX + NS MDXA
> >4) Faema + 2002 at work
> >10) Faema + pre-ground
> >44,397) *$ across the street
> >99,437) Superket instant
> >
> >Which is to say, push comes to shove and the need rises,
> >pre-ground is better than nought!
>
> I'm with Ken. Drip done well is far better than espresso done badly.
Espresso with pre-ground can be done badly same as with fresh
ground. It can also be done well. IMHO, espresso done well with
pre-ground beats heck out of the trash in the bulk drip maker at
the office!

--
M for N in address to mail reply


     
Date: 07 Dec 2006 18:10:39
From:
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:17:35 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca >
wrote:

>In article <b5sdn29ce4ckmt1ifj72qj071cjttgv8rl@4ax.com>,
> shall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:56:11 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca>
>> wrote
>> >The scale (best to worst goes:
>> >1) Home HX + NS MDXA
>> >4) Faema + 2002 at work
>> >10) Faema + pre-ground
>> >44,397) *$ across the street
>> >99,437) Superket instant
>> >
>> >Which is to say, push comes to shove and the need rises,
>> >pre-ground is better than nought!
>>
>> I'm with Ken. Drip done well is far better than espresso done badly.
>Espresso with pre-ground can be done badly same as with fresh
>ground. It can also be done well. IMHO, espresso done well with
>pre-ground beats heck out of the trash in the bulk drip maker at
>the office!

If I may: I DISAGREE. Freshly ground coffee with a $10 whirley grinder
and a $10 pour-over filter setup is far superior to any preground with
whatever espresso machine you choose to use.

Rule number one: Grind freshly roasted bean IMMEDIATELY before
brewing. Everything else falls under the 80/20 rule.

Reluctant though I am to agree with Mr. Fox: He's right; you're wrong.







_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


      
Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:44:26
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
In article <56ihn2hf26at73fleq3oojmdbb7vcp8g9g@4ax.com >, Roque Ja
wrote:

> If I may: I DISAGREE. Freshly ground coffee with a $10 whirley grinder
> and a $10 pour-over filter setup is far superior to any preground with
> whatever espresso machine you choose to use.
>
> Reluctant though I am to agree with Mr. Fox: He's right; you're wrong.

You remind me of a Philosophy exam I once took. The question was,
"State your opinion..." I got in back ked WRONG.

Taste is in your mouth. To my taste, decently made espresso has a
mouth feel to it that you NEVER get in drip. Even espresso made
with pre-ground has the potential to be better than "ground coffee
with a $10 whirley grinder and a $10 pour-over filter setup".

(I have that ability as well. What I DON'T have is water at the
correct temperature. I can draw water off the coffee brewer, but I
can't have a stand-alone kettle. YOU talk to our fire shall :-)
)

--
M for N in address to mail reply


       
Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:20:12
From:
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:44:26 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca >
wrote:

>In article <56ihn2hf26at73fleq3oojmdbb7vcp8g9g@4ax.com>, Roque Ja
>wrote:
>
>> If I may: I DISAGREE. Freshly ground coffee with a $10 whirley grinder
>> and a $10 pour-over filter setup is far superior to any preground with
>> whatever espresso machine you choose to use.
>>
>> Reluctant though I am to agree with Mr. Fox: He's right; you're wrong.
>
>You remind me of a Philosophy exam I once took. The question was,
>"State your opinion..." I got in back ked WRONG.

Not surprised. Your opinion seems to be wrong frequently. Why does
that seem odd to you?

Actually, I don't care what you drink. Some people simply cannot taste
the difference. Fine for them. YMMV as always.








_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


     
Date: 08 Dec 2006 01:13:25
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:17:35 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca >
wrote:

>In article <b5sdn29ce4ckmt1ifj72qj071cjttgv8rl@4ax.com>,
> shall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:56:11 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca>
>> wrote
>> >The scale (best to worst goes:
>> >1) Home HX + NS MDXA
>> >4) Faema + 2002 at work
>> >10) Faema + pre-ground
>> >44,397) *$ across the street
>> >99,437) Superket instant
>> >
>> >Which is to say, push comes to shove and the need rises,
>> >pre-ground is better than nought!
>>
>> I'm with Ken. Drip done well is far better than espresso done badly.
>Espresso with pre-ground can be done badly same as with fresh
>ground. It can also be done well. IMHO, espresso done well with
>pre-ground beats heck out of the trash in the bulk drip maker at
>the office!

Let's get back to the OP. He only has space for one machine. His first
thought was that machine should be a Silvia (which will require
pre-ground) or a superauto. Ken and I suggested he use that space for
a grinder and make fabulous drip or French press, instead of mediocre
espresso. Would you disagree? (I think very few coffee people would).

shall.


     
Date: 07 Dec 2006 17:45:19
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
"Neal Reid" <NealReid@Nagma.ca > wrote in message
news:NealReid-4639FE.18173507122006@news.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <b5sdn29ce4ckmt1ifj72qj071cjttgv8rl@4ax.com>,
> shall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:56:11 -0500, Neal Reid <NealReid@Nagma.ca>
>> wrote
>> >The scale (best to worst goes:
>> >1) Home HX + NS MDXA
>> >4) Faema + 2002 at work
>> >10) Faema + pre-ground
>> >44,397) *$ across the street
>> >99,437) Superket instant
>> >
>> >Which is to say, push comes to shove and the need rises,
>> >pre-ground is better than nought!
>>
>> I'm with Ken. Drip done well is far better than espresso done badly.
> Espresso with pre-ground can be done badly same as with fresh
> ground. It can also be done well. IMHO, espresso done well with
> pre-ground beats heck out of the trash in the bulk drip maker at
> the office!
>
> --
> M for N in address to mail reply

I doubt that very many of us who have acquired espressomaking skills at a
good level would believe that espresso with preground can be "done well,"
but if you think it is ok then that is all that matters. Comparing anything
you might want to consume to typical office or airplane coffee presents a
false comparison because no one with any appreciation of good coffee would
willingly consume bad office or airplane coffee unless they had no other
choice.

ken




      
Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:36:07
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Silvia w/no grinder vs. La Pavoni Napolitana
In article <4trqssF15p3hlU1@mid.individual.net >,
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

> I doubt that very many of us who have acquired espressomaking skills at a
> good level would believe that espresso with preground can be "done well,"
> but if you think it is ok then that is all that matters. Comparing anything
> you might want to consume to typical office or airplane coffee presents a
> false comparison because no one with any appreciation of good coffee would
> willingly consume bad office or airplane coffee unless they had no other
> choice.

The last 5 words say it all!
I have my Faema Family + Saeco 2002 at the office. Using the
grinder (a) often results in yelling to shut that noise off and
(b) takes quite a while to grind a shot et al.

There are times when I have 5 minutes to grab a coffee before a
meeting. I CAN do that using the vac pack brick I keep there for
just such purposes. With a bit of care packing and tamping, it IS
MUCH better than the available drip (and better when I make it
than when less experienced people using the same equipment - which
is what I mean by done well)

You saw my scale yesterday. I'm not saying it is GOOD (although at
times it is) I'm saying it's better than the options

--
M for N in address to mail reply