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Date: 14 Jun 2007 15:33:34
From:
Subject: Silvia's refill point
Ok this might be blindingly obvious to some but so I am sure, I have a
Silvia and wanted to know at what point does she refill the boiler?
Currently I was advised that after warm up on first switch on to do
the following.
Run brew switch until light illuminates again, lock and load, brew. If
thats ok then flick the steam switch in the time it takes to pour milk
in jug, scratch myself etc etc purge the steam wand, steam.
Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
boiler?
I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
hot water switch incase I do this.

thanks in advance

Spook





 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au > wrote:

> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
> boiler?
> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
> hot water switch incase I do this.

Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
wand, the boiler is full.

The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long. When you
steam, the pump doesn't run, it just boils the water that's already in
the boiler. Boil it long enough and it will boil away. To refill,
you'd need to run the water switch (or brew switch) 'till water
emerges.

regards, Ian SMith
--


  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 17:21:48
From: seastl
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk > wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
>> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
>> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
>> boiler?
>> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
>> hot water switch incase I do this.
>
>Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
>Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
>the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
>wand, the boiler is full.

Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.

>The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.

Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
etc.

> When you
>steam, the pump doesn't run, it just boils the water that's already in
>the boiler. Boil it long enough and it will boil away. To refill,
>you'd need to run the water switch (or brew switch) 'till water
>emerges.

The water switch method is superior for two reasons (IMO). It doesn't
flow super-heated water through the grouphead which drives the group
temps higher, and it fills the boiler positively, whereas with the
group head method, the boiler will not be full as soon as water
emerges. With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
full when water emerges.



   
Date: 16 Jun 2007 08:37:24
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:21:48 -0500, seastl < > wrote:
> On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
> >> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
> >> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
> >> boiler?
> >> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
> >> hot water switch incase I do this.
> >
> >Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
> >Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
> >the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
> >wand, the boiler is full.
>
> Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
> the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
> water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.

Functionally, yes, it's true. It's as full as it is necessary to
be.

If you want to be precise, it is likely that the boiler is never
completely full of liquid water. However, it's not actually useful to
say that you can never ever fill the boiler.

> >The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.
>
> Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
> through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
> etc.

Again, my statement is functionally true. You can also make the
boiler dry by drilling holes through it or chucking it in a running
blast furnace, but neither of those are useful responses to the OP
either. I think it reasonable to take as implicit a functional
machine in normal operation. Any number of faults could result in a
dry boiler (leaks in several places, pump not running, blocked pipe,
exploding boiler).

My statement may not be necessarily true, but nothing in your post is
necessarily true either, so I wonder why you bothered.

> With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
> full when water emerges.

Oh no you can't - what about trapped bubbles of vapour in corners?
What about bubbles on the element? If you're going to analy picky
precise, you ought to do it properly.

regards, Ian SMith
--


    
Date: 16 Jun 2007 13:34:24
From: seastl
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On 16 Jun 2007 08:37:24 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk > wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:21:48 -0500, seastl <> wrote:
>> On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
>> >> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
>> >> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
>> >> boiler?
>> >> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
>> >> hot water switch incase I do this.
>> >
>> >Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
>> >Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
>> >the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
>> >wand, the boiler is full.
>>
>> Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
>> the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
>> water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.
>
>Functionally, yes, it's true. It's as full as it is necessary to
>be.
>
>If you want to be precise, it is likely that the boiler is never
>completely full of liquid water. However, it's not actually useful to
>say that you can never ever fill the boiler.
>
>> >The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.
>>
>> Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
>> through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
>> etc.
>
>Again, my statement is functionally true. You can also make the
>boiler dry by drilling holes through it or chucking it in a running
>blast furnace, but neither of those are useful responses to the OP
>either. I think it reasonable to take as implicit a functional
>machine in normal operation. Any number of faults could result in a
>dry boiler (leaks in several places, pump not running, blocked pipe,
>exploding boiler).
>
>My statement may not be necessarily true, but nothing in your post is
>necessarily true either, so I wonder why you bothered.
>
>> With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
>> full when water emerges.
>
>Oh no you can't - what about trapped bubbles of vapour in corners?
>What about bubbles on the element? If you're going to analy picky
>precise, you ought to do it properly.
>
>regards, Ian SMith

Sorry to bother you, but neither statement that you initially made was
accurate, nor was your rebuttal.

HAND

Brad


     
Date: 17 Jun 2007 08:38:55
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:34:24 -0500, seastl < > wrote:
> On 16 Jun 2007 08:37:24 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:21:48 -0500, seastl <> wrote:
> >> On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
> >> >> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
> >> >> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
> >> >> boiler?
> >> >> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
> >> >> hot water switch incase I do this.
> >> >
> >> >Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
> >> >Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
> >> >the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
> >> >wand, the boiler is full.
> >>
> >> Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
> >> the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
> >> water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.
> >
> >Functionally, yes, it's true. It's as full as it is necessary to
> >be.
> >
> >If you want to be precise, it is likely that the boiler is never
> >completely full of liquid water. However, it's not actually useful to
> >say that you can never ever fill the boiler.
> >
> >> >The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.
> >>
> >> Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
> >> through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
> >> etc.
> >
> >Again, my statement is functionally true. You can also make the
> >boiler dry by drilling holes through it or chucking it in a running
> >blast furnace, but neither of those are useful responses to the OP
> >either. I think it reasonable to take as implicit a functional
> >machine in normal operation. Any number of faults could result in a
> >dry boiler (leaks in several places, pump not running, blocked pipe,
> >exploding boiler).
> >
> >My statement may not be necessarily true, but nothing in your post is
> >necessarily true either, so I wonder why you bothered.
> >
> >> With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
> >> full when water emerges.
> >
> >Oh no you can't - what about trapped bubbles of vapour in corners?
> >What about bubbles on the element? If you're going to analy picky
> >precise, you ought to do it properly.
>
> Sorry to bother you, but neither statement that you initially made was
> accurate, nor was your rebuttal.

I KNOW - THATS WHY I SAID "MY STATEMENT MAY NOT BE NECESSARILY TRUE".
You even quoted me saying it.

The 'correction' to my post was also not entirely true, so I don't
really know why you bothered.

My 'rebuttal' is true. There are lots of ways to empty the boiler,
but most of them are irrelevant to normal operation on a correctly
functioning machine. You cannot guarantee to fill the boiler with the
water switch, but it doesn't matter because you don't need to fill
the boiler completely. The boiler is probably never completely full
of liquid water in operation. All these things are true. Which don't
you believe?

regards, Ian SMith
--


   
Date: 16 Jun 2007 01:47:31
From: Rob Yokom
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point

"seastl >" <<nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:7l36731ovfpa6hq12v5ouec8oq29u65er5@4ax.com...
> On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
>>> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
>>> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
>>> boiler?
>>> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
>>> hot water switch incase I do this.
>>
>>Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
>>Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
>>the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
>>wand, the boiler is full.
>
> Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
> the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
> water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.
>
>>The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.
>
> Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
> through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
> etc.
>
>> When you
>>steam, the pump doesn't run, it just boils the water that's already in
>>the boiler. Boil it long enough and it will boil away. To refill,
>>you'd need to run the water switch (or brew switch) 'till water
>>emerges.
>
> The water switch method is superior for two reasons (IMO). It doesn't
> flow super-heated water through the grouphead which drives the group
> temps higher, and it fills the boiler positively, whereas with the
> group head method, the boiler will not be full as soon as water
> emerges. With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
> full when water emerges.
>

I just turn on the water switch with the steam valve closed and let it pump
until it's full. You can tell by the sound of the pump. It gets lower and
sounds like it's straining. As soon as the sound of the pump changes then
turn the switch off.




    
Date: 15 Jun 2007 23:22:21
From: seastl
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 01:47:31 GMT, "Rob Yokom" <r.yokom@mchsi.com >
wrote:

>
>"seastl >" <<nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:7l36731ovfpa6hq12v5ouec8oq29u65er5@4ax.com...
>> On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
>>>> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
>>>> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
>>>> boiler?
>>>> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
>>>> hot water switch incase I do this.
>>>
>>>Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
>>>Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
>>>the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
>>>wand, the boiler is full.
>>
>> Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
>> the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
>> water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.
>>
>>>The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.
>>
>> Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
>> through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
>> etc.
>>
>>> When you
>>>steam, the pump doesn't run, it just boils the water that's already in
>>>the boiler. Boil it long enough and it will boil away. To refill,
>>>you'd need to run the water switch (or brew switch) 'till water
>>>emerges.
>>
>> The water switch method is superior for two reasons (IMO). It doesn't
>> flow super-heated water through the grouphead which drives the group
>> temps higher, and it fills the boiler positively, whereas with the
>> group head method, the boiler will not be full as soon as water
>> emerges. With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
>> full when water emerges.
>>
>
>I just turn on the water switch with the steam valve closed and let it pump
>until it's full. You can tell by the sound of the pump. It gets lower and
>sounds like it's straining. As soon as the sound of the pump changes then
>turn the switch off.

Where does the air/steam go? I always draw water out the steam wand,
FWIW. Haven't tried the other...yet


     
Date: 17 Jun 2007 14:57:22
From: Rob Yokom
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point

"seastl >" <<nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:n7p673do496u62pb2hv4nh26sv6plk9lgg@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 01:47:31 GMT, "Rob Yokom" <r.yokom@mchsi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"seastl >" <<nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:7l36731ovfpa6hq12v5ouec8oq29u65er5@4ax.com...
>>> On 15 Jun 2007 16:40:12 GMT, Ian Smith <ian@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 14 Jun, sullosau@yahoo.com.au <sullosau@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
>>>>> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
>>>>> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
>>>>> boiler?
>>>>> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
>>>>> hot water switch incase I do this.
>>>>
>>>>Any time you hit the brew or water switch, you're filling the boiler.
>>>>Both those switches switch on the pump, and the pump pumps water into
>>>>the boiler. Any time a good stream of water is coming out the head or
>>>>wand, the boiler is full.
>>>
>>> Not necessarily true, as the standpipe opening is almost 1 inch below
>>> the top of the boiler. Therefore, you could have a steady stream of
>>> water emerging from the group without the boiler being full.
>>>
>>>>The only way you run the boiler dry is steaming too long.
>>>
>>> Not necessarily true either. It can go dry just sitting by seeping
>>> through the over-pressure valve, leaky steam valve, 3-way valve, etc,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>>> When you
>>>>steam, the pump doesn't run, it just boils the water that's already in
>>>>the boiler. Boil it long enough and it will boil away. To refill,
>>>>you'd need to run the water switch (or brew switch) 'till water
>>>>emerges.
>>>
>>> The water switch method is superior for two reasons (IMO). It doesn't
>>> flow super-heated water through the grouphead which drives the group
>>> temps higher, and it fills the boiler positively, whereas with the
>>> group head method, the boiler will not be full as soon as water
>>> emerges. With the water switch method, you can be assured that it is
>>> full when water emerges.
>>>
>>
>>I just turn on the water switch with the steam valve closed and let it
>>pump
>>until it's full. You can tell by the sound of the pump. It gets lower and
>>sounds like it's straining. As soon as the sound of the pump changes then
>>turn the switch off.
>
> Where does the air/steam go? I always draw water out the steam wand,
> FWIW. Haven't tried the other...yet

It goes out the relief valve back into the water tank.




 
Date: 15 Jun 2007 06:25:39
From: Karl
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On Jun 14, 6:33 pm, sullo...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ok this might be blindingly obvious to some but so I am sure, I have a
> Silvia and wanted to know at what point does she refill the boiler?
> Currently I was advised that after warm up on first switch on to do
> the following.
> Run brew switch until light illuminates again, lock and load, brew. If
> thats ok then flick the steam switch in the time it takes to pour milk
> in jug, scratch myself etc etc purge the steam wand, steam.
> Then was advised to switch off steam and hit the brew switch again
> after a minute or two or the time it takes to pour into cups etc then
> flick brew to get water flowing. Does that last action refill the
> boiler?
> I just dont want to run boiler dry, Hence I also try not to use the
> hot water switch incase I do this.
>
> thanks in advance
>
> Spook

As I guess you know, there is no automatic boiler refill on Silvia; if
you were to leave her steaming long enough, the boiler would go dry,
the element would overheat, and either the safety fuse (or whatever it
is - may not technically be a fuse) would blow, or you would have an
element melt down, or both.

For this reason, you have to manually refill the boiler.

Whenever you are using the pump, Silvia is pulling water into the
boiler and sending it out, either through the group head or the hot
water/Steam wand. You will not run the boiler dry when using either
the brew switch, or the hot water switch - the boiler will refill
until the level reaches the outlet for the grouphead, or for the hot
water/steam wand, and then water will come out the grouphead or the
hot water/steam wand.

Since steaming lowers the water level in the boiler (since the pump is
not running) it is always best to refill the boiler after steaming.
Just open the valve on the hot water/steam wand, and turn on the hot
water switch. You may not get any water at first (if the boiler level
has lowered to below the outlet to the hot water/steam wand) but when
you do, you will know the boiler is full, or at least filled to the
hot water/steam outlet, which is as full as you can get it. As soon as
water comes out the wand, in a steady stream, the boiler is filled.

You could fill the boiler by running water through the group head as
if you were pulling a shot, but I believe the outlet to the grouphead
is located a little lower on the boiler than the outlet to the hot
water/steam wand, so you are filling the boiler fuller if you run
water through the hot water/steam wand. Fuller is generally better
(but see below).

In theory, Silvia is a sealed system - just keeping her on should not
lower the water level in the boiler. In fact, she is a little leaky -
you may get some drips from the hot water/steam wand when she is on
but not doing anything, and you may have some steam leakage in any
event. For this reason, if you leave her on for a long time it is a
good precaution to refill the boiler every so often, and certainly
before you steam again.

Fuller is not always better. Before steaming, you may want to lower
the level in the boiler so you get dryer steam. Opening the steam
valve for a few seconds before steaming your milk will accomplish this
- a little water will boil off, the level will drop a little, and you
will get dryer steam. Doing this, of course, makes it even more
important to refill the boiler after steaming. It also makes it more
important to start steaming just before the light goes off so the
element will be heating, and making steam, while you are steaming the
milk.

Karl



  
Date: 15 Jun 2007 07:43:45
From:
Subject: Re: Silvia's refill point
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:25:39 -0700, Karl <karlmiltonrice@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>On Jun 14, 6:33 pm, sullo...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>> Ok this might be blindingly obvious to some but so I am sure, I have a
>> Silvia and wanted to know at what point does she refill the boiler?
>> Currently I was advised that after warm up on first switch on to do
>> the following.
...snip....
>>
>> thanks in advance
>>
>> Spook
>
>As I guess you know, there is no automatic boiler refill on Silvia; if
>you were to leave her steaming long enough, the boiler would go dry,
>the element would overheat, and either the safety fuse (or whatever it
>is - may not technically be a fuse) would blow, or you would have an
>element melt down, or both.
>
>For this reason, you have to manually refill the boiler.
...snip of a discussion of fine points...
>
>Fuller is not always better. Before steaming, you may want to lower
>the level in the boiler so you get dryer steam. Opening the steam
>valve for a few seconds before steaming your milk will accomplish this
>- a little water will boil off, the level will drop a little, and you
>will get dryer steam. Doing this, of course, makes it even more
>important to refill the boiler after steaming. It also makes it more
>important to start steaming just before the light goes off so the
>element will be heating, and making steam, while you are steaming the
>milk.
>
>Karl


After steaming milk, I always clear the wand by turing on the pump
with the valve open until I get a few oz of water out. I was told to
do this with the first espresso machine I ever bought (some 20 years
ago) to keep the wand clear of dried milk crud, and I've been doing it
ever since on three different machine. I have never had to clean out
the steam wand openings on any of those machines. Filling the boiler
after steaming is a side benefit.








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