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Date: 14 Feb 2007 23:41:21
From: diab0lus
Subject: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
I got this idea from Murph's Siliva PID Page, but I didn't use a neon
light. I wanted to, but I didn't want to have to buy a transformer,
rectifier, power supply or whatever to convert 120VAC to 12VDC (I
found some really cool after ket PC and car lighting to install if
anyone is interesting in doing a DC alarm).

Here are pics of the install (yes, I gave her a tattoo while doing
this):

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs412&d=07074&f=pidalarm1.jpg
http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs412&d=07074&f=pidalarm2.jpg

It is very simple, costs under $12.00, uses the existing Rancilio
badge holes and requires only two different parts:

- (2) Blue Sea Systems 11/64" 120V LED w/ leads
- specs: http://bluesea.com/category/8/33/productline/overview/
229
- best price shipped: http://www.boatfix.com - search by part
number from manufacturers web site.

- (1) piece of 2-3" wire rated for 120V
- Solid wire is probably better for this application
- You might need a longer wire depending on your pid
- You could buy two spades [about $.12 each] to crimp on the ends
of the wire. It would probably make things a little easier.

Your PID will need to be AC powered and have an AC alarm/output relay
in order do to this in the way I am describing. The Love 32B output 2
relay is rated at 250VAC and 5A, so 120V is no problem and the draw is
no more than 1 mA with two of these 120V LEDs.

[[==================================================================]]
[[__--==<<It's not my fault if you kill yourself doing this. >>==--__]]
[[==================================================================]]

1. Power off the machine and unplug it.

2. The holes from the Rancilio badge are 4mm. The mounting hole size
required for this LED is 11/64" or 4.36mm. You could try to sand down
the LED, but I chose to enlarge the badge holes by 0.36mm or 0.014".
I used a dremel tool with a conical filing bit attached to it. I
pulsed the dremel tool using low speed and high pressure to enlarge
the holes. This took about as long as the rest of the steps
combined. I didn't feel that any lubricant was necessary. By using
short pulses and high pressure the steel never got too hot to touch.
Keep test fitting the LED and filing until you can easily push the LED
in the hole until the little ribs on the side of the light touch the
metal.

3. Push the LED all the way in once the ribbing hits the metal. You
might need to use a tool to help. The chuck wrench for the Dremel
tool was perfect because the hole in the middle was slightly larger
than the LED, but not as big as the LED socket. I placed LED bulb in
the hole on the wrench and pushed the wrench until it seated the LED
up against the case. This did put little scratches on the bulb
socket, but it is hardly noticeable (unlike the big scratch I made on
the case with the Dremel tool).

4. Disconnect both of the 120V power wires going into the pid.

5. Strip the new wire about 1/4" on each side and bend it enough to
hook around the screw terminals on the back of pid.

6. Piggyback the new wire onto the power terminal with one of the
original power wires and tighten so that both wires are securely
attached. No bare wire should be exposed outside of the terminal.
Give a tug on both wires. It could be very bad if one of those wires
became disconnected while the power is on.

7. Connect the other end of the new wire to the relay (I attached
mine to the + side, but I don't think it matters).

8. Twist the bare end of one wire from each LED together, bend the
bare end into a hook and attach to the other relay terminal.

9. Twist the remaining wire from each LED together and piggyback it
onto the remaining power wire and tighten well (like in step 4). The
connections should look like this. Both original power wires are
connected to their original location. A small wire is patched from
one of the power terminals to the relay terminal on the back of the
pid. The two LEDs leads are twisted together with one wire from each
LED connected to the other side of the relay (not the hot side) and
the other LED wires are connected to the other power terminal (not the
terminal with the piggyback wire attached to it).

10. Turn on the machine and configure your alarm. The reverse
deviation upper and lower limit alarm type will allow you to specify
when you want the alarm to come on in relation to the set value. I
have mine set for +0.1 / -0.1. So the light comes on when the
temperature reading is 227.4 through 227.6. The +/- deviation doesn't
need to be the same value (at least on my pid). If you change your
set value, the deviation remains the same, so their is no need to
adjust the alarm when you change your set value.

I start the shot after the light has been on for a few seconds. If I
just pulled a shot, it usually, but not always, overshoots the first
time so I ignore the first light. After that it is good to go.

I thought heat might be an issue. I measured 130F in the case where
the pid is located. It jumped to 140F after steaming the boiler dry
(to find the extreme) then cooled down to 130F. It wasn't above 130F
long enough for me to worry about it and this pid is rated for 130F
operating environment. I might wrap it in reflective thermal
insulation, but I am open to suggestions.

Ryan





 
Date: 17 Feb 2007 09:01:57
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 17, 11:41 am, "Charter" <jpdavis...@myway.com > wrote:
> Enclosures! - we don't need no stinkin enclosures!
> What do you think duct tape, velcro, wire ties, Bondo, C-clamps, vice grips,
> etc. are for?
> You just need to "Man up" and do it.
> :-)
>
> Jeff


Damn right!

"Git 'er done!!"

d



 
Date: 17 Feb 2007 17:49:28
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
> I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> Since I->Ian brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> wrong upper ambient temperature limit, I have been trying to think of
> either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> cooling.
>
> On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> though.
>
>
Hmmm,
been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.

Holes, hoses?!, noisy fans, insulation, plastic bits and pieces are
all further signs of an 'engineer' with excessive time on his / her
hand(s).


hint: why is the SSR mounted there? where ELSE could it be mounted?
Where else could the controller be mounted?


 
Date: 17 Feb 2007 17:48:24
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
> I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> Since I->Ian

( --- and I made it perfectly clear, and have ever since that
ridiculous boiler mount scheme came out. )

>brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> wrong upper ambient temperature limit, [duh] I have been trying to think of
> either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> cooling.
>
> On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> though.

Hmmm,
been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.

Holes, hoses?!, noisy fans, insulation, plastic bits and pieces are
all further signs of an 'engineer' with excessive time on his / her
hand(s).

hint: why is the SSR mounted there? where ELSE could it be mounted?
Where else could the controller be mounted?


 
Date: 17 Feb 2007 04:07:24
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights

>
> I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> Since I->Ian

( --- and I made it perfectly clear, and have ever since that
ridiculous boiler mount scheme came out. )

>brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> wrong upper ambient temperature limit, [duh] I have been trying to think of
> either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> cooling.
>
> On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> though.

Hmmm,
been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.

Holes, hoses?!, noisy fans, insulation, plastic bits and pieces are
all further signs of an 'engineer' with excessive time on his / her
hand(s).

hint: why is the SSR mounted there? where ELSE could it be mounted?
Where else could the controller be mounted?



  
Date: 18 Feb 2007 15:09:36
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 18, 5:03 pm, North Sullivan <northwri...@bluebottle.com > wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2007 17:35:31 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Feb 17, 7:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
> >> On 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
> >> >A: no.
>
> >> it might. why dismiss the possibility out of hand?
>
> >oh, I dunno. past experience, maybe?
>
> Dave,
>
> Here's a chance to show your stuff. You've got nothin' to lose, and
> you both might learn something. That's what alt.coffee is all about.
>
> North Sulivan
> (don't know squat about PID's)


Uh, I know better than to attempt that here.
I'll just let my happy customers do the talking.

but thanks for the invite, North.

dave
www.hitechespresso.com





  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 19:10:49
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 17 Feb 2007 04:07:24 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>Hmmm,
>been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
>b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.
>


and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID afterward,
have you?



   
Date: 20 Feb 2007 07:15:46
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 18, 6:20 pm, "I- >Ian" <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> With no ventilation, with the box in free air, the internal
> temperature of the box rose ~10=B0C over a few hours. Ambient
> temperature was ~24=B0C

After day two of the internal pid install I have taken the pid from
inside the case and placed it outside of the case until I determine my
next course of action. As a test to see if the temperature (130F)
inside the machine was affecting the pid, I let the machine warm up
for an hour before I took the pid out. As soon as I exposed the pid
to room temperature (71F) and fanned air onto it, the displayed
temperature began jumping around in approximately 3 degree F
increments, first down to 220F, then up to 234F. After reading about
the CJC, I have reason to believe that the pid was keeping the
temperature about 4-6 degrees higher than the intended temperature.
Of course this could be compensated for if it were consistently higher
due to the ambient temperatures, but I didn't do anything to verify
that because I don't intend to keep it in that environment.

Thanks for posting your findings,
Ryan



 
Date: 16 Feb 2007 22:27:38
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 15, 1:38 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

> It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on my
> machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID kits, but
> they aren't available to the public at any price. The aluminum Bud models
> are too rough looking for my tastes & most plastic enclosures didn't look
> strong enough to be mounted anywhere but on a flat surface. I bugged the
> good folks at Ace Electronics here in Houston & they found the Hammond 1212
> panel mount ($13) that fit 1/32 DIN PID's *almost* perfectly. There is a
> problem mounting the Watlow 935's because they're longer that the Cal & Love
> PID's. I found that by bending the terminal ends of the leads 90 degrees
> before installing & routing the wires to a side exit rather than through the
> back there was *just* enough room.

I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
Since I- >Ian brought it to my attention that I was working with the
wrong upper ambient temperature limit, I have been trying to think of
either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
cooling.

On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
though.




  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 17:23:29
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
Look here & contact one of their distributors to order.
http://www.hammondmfg.com/1212.htm. I bought 14v DC fans for $7 each & used
a power supply I picked up for a buck at a flea ket. The 115v AC fans
were pricier but I got a good deal on a lot of 8 if anyone's interested in
one.

I've also looked into using a Peltier device but they're a bit on the pricey
side.

I made a pretty good living providing products designed for worst case
scenarios. Most products work perfectly under ideal conditions, but why not
build in a little buffer of reliability for when the ideal environment
deteriates? It may turn out to be overkill as some say, but then again...
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"diab0lus" <r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171693658.536139.112110@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 1:38 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on my
>> machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID kits, but
>> they aren't available to the public at any price. The aluminum Bud models
>> are too rough looking for my tastes & most plastic enclosures didn't look
>> strong enough to be mounted anywhere but on a flat surface. I bugged the
>> good folks at Ace Electronics here in Houston & they found the Hammond
>> 1212
>> panel mount ($13) that fit 1/32 DIN PID's *almost* perfectly. There is a
>> problem mounting the Watlow 935's because they're longer that the Cal &
>> Love
>> PID's. I found that by bending the terminal ends of the leads 90 degrees
>> before installing & routing the wires to a side exit rather than through
>> the
>> back there was *just* enough room.
>
> I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> Since I->Ian brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> wrong upper ambient temperature limit, I have been trying to think of
> either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> cooling.
>
> On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> though.
>
>




  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 10:41:40
From: Charter
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
Enclosures! - we don't need no stinkin enclosures!
What do you think duct tape, velcro, wire ties, Bondo, C-clamps, vice grips,
etc. are for?
You just need to "Man up" and do it.
:-)

Jeff



"diab0lus" <r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171693658.536139.112110@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 1:38 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on my
>> machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID kits, but
>> they aren't available to the public at any price. The aluminum Bud models
>> are too rough looking for my tastes & most plastic enclosures didn't look
>> strong enough to be mounted anywhere but on a flat surface. I bugged the
>> good folks at Ace Electronics here in Houston & they found the Hammond
>> 1212
>> panel mount ($13) that fit 1/32 DIN PID's *almost* perfectly. There is a
>> problem mounting the Watlow 935's because they're longer that the Cal &
>> Love
>> PID's. I found that by bending the terminal ends of the leads 90 degrees
>> before installing & routing the wires to a side exit rather than through
>> the
>> back there was *just* enough room.
>
> I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> Since I->Ian brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> wrong upper ambient temperature limit, I have been trying to think of
> either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> cooling.
>
> On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> though.
>
>




  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 07:11:43
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

> I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> Since I->Ian brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> wrong upper ambient temperature limit, I have been trying to think of
> either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> cooling.
>
> On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> though.
>
>
Hmmm,
been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.

Holes, hoses?!, noisy fans, insulation, plastic bits and pieces are
all further signs of an 'engineer' with excessive time on his / her
hand(s).


hint: why is the SSR mounted there? where ELSE could it be mounted?
Where else could the controller be mounted?





   
Date: 18 Feb 2007 12:55:00
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:12tdskaebmf7qd6@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > I haven't been able to find an online source for the Hammond 1212.
> > Since I->Ian brought it to my attention that I was working with the
> > wrong upper ambient temperature limit, I have been trying to think of
> > either a new internal location for the PID (above the SSR) or cutting
> > my front panel and doing an installation similar to yours. I thought
> > of a way to do it completely internal with cooling, but I don't know
> > if it would be more or less work than a front panel install with
> > cooling.
> >
> > On the Silvia a small hose could be used to draw air in from right
> > above the drip tray or under the water reservoir and into an
> > completely boxed in pid enclosure with a 1" fan sucking in the air
> > from the tube. It could be vented to the atmosphere or a return tube
> > could be run back. I don't think that would really be necessary
> > though.
> >
> >
> Hmmm,
> been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
> b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.
>
> Holes, hoses?!, noisy fans, insulation, plastic bits and pieces are
> all further signs of an 'engineer' with excessive time on his / her
> hand(s).
>
>
> hint: why is the SSR mounted there? where ELSE could it be mounted?
> Where else could the controller be mounted?
>
>
>
how have you tested that Dave?




 
Date: 16 Feb 2007 21:42:12
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:30:50 -0800, daveb wrote:

> You think that e-mails always get through? hmmm, perhaps not.
>
> you'd rather post a snotty rek. and why were you in a HURRYdo
> this hack job?
>
> do NOT look to me for warranty support or ANY support on this
> equipment, as you are abusing it. good to know.
>
> Ah well, your time is yours to do with as you see fit
> "r0cketscientist"


 
Date: 16 Feb 2007 21:40:31
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 04:54:08 -0800, daveb wrote:

> So, you enclosed the PID controller inside the boiler compartment?
>
> Are you TRYING to kill it off, by running it right at the edge of the
> ambient it will tolerate? WHY would you do that?
>
> plus you have ZERO understanding of the voltages used by neon vs. led.
> as Mr. Smith sez. -- and many other things. I do like the autograph
> on the front, tho'.
>
> a completely moronic waste of time.
>
> I would not want to be near any "rockets" you are involved with,
> "r0cketscientist".


 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 10:38:02
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Idiot lites AND a cooked 'pid' project.
> 1) If you searched this group for just a little while you'd find a guy who
> did cook his controller.

When I searched for "pid failure" I didn't find anything. 54 hits or
something like that - none relevant.


> and since you aren't even showing the display -- why place it IN THE BOILER
> COMPARTMENT? and please,

Where else do you recommend? I don't think it will fit next to the
SSR.


> 2) tell me: when is it EVER a good idea to expose electronics to high temps?
> regardless of the "spec." rating??

I don't know. You're talking to someone that has a computer running
without a processor fan for the past 6 years with no problems. Have
fun with that one.

I'll see what the manufacturer recommends when they reply.

Ryan




  
Date: 15 Feb 2007 13:48:44
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites AND a cooked 'pid' project.

"diab0lus" <r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171564682.886322.122420@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> 1) If you searched this group for just a little while you'd find a guy
>> who
>> did cook his controller.
>
> When I searched for "pid failure" I didn't find anything. 54 hits or
> something like that - none relevant.

a shame.

>
>

>
> Where else do you recommend? I don't think it will fit next to the
> SSR.

Hmm, look around inside the silvia? and BTW, why is the SSR mounted THERE?

>
>
>> 2) tell me: when is it EVER a good idea to expose electronics to high
>> temps?
>> regardless of the "spec." rating??
>
> I don't know. You're talking to someone that has a computer running
> without a processor fan for the past 6 years with no problems. Have
> fun with that one. --
tsk! more sarcasm.

a 286 does not need a fan
>
>





 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 10:24:33
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
> 32B Ambient Temperature 0=B0C to 50=B0C =3D 32=B0F to 122=B0F

Hah. I was operating on the assumption that 130F max was the spec. I
don't know where I got that number. E-mail to Dwyer has been sent.


> For a really cool project you should have made the Low temperature LED
> Blue and the High temperature LED Red for truly informative IDIOT
> lights.

I should have gotten a pid with two alarms. Then I could sit there
and drool while looking at the lights instead of making espresso. Two
different lights would be just _too_ much information.


> Definitely a 2007 a.c Darwin award contender!
> Bon chance!

Thanks. I knew I had it in me.

Ryan



 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 10:05:23
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate surrounding
> environmental temp was something on the order of 130=B0F +. Running the
> PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to its demise sooner
> than later. Others here have mentioned erratic operation & display. The
> Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have if I remember correctly, an
> upper operating temp of 150=B0F.
> Craig.

Sorry to you and others for all of the unproductive noise. I can't
help but think this has deterred others from posting replies.

Anyhow, I am going to contact the manufacturer to see if these
symptoms occur in Dwyer/Love Controls PIDs. Thanks for the
information.

Ryan




  
Date: 15 Feb 2007 13:18:58
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

"diab0lus" <r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171562723.518913.290290@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate
> surrounding
> environmental temp was something on the order of 130F +. Running the
> PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to its demise
> sooner
> than later. Others here have mentioned erratic operation & display.
> The
> Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have if I remember correctly,
> an
> upper operating temp of 150F.
> Craig.

>Sorry to you and others for all of the unproductive noise. I can't
>help but think this has deterred others from posting replies.

Heh, give it some time., I'm sure others will chime in. Deterred
others?, that's life., if they have something constructive or any useful
input to post.., they'll be on it.

>Anyhow, I am going to contact the manufacturer to see if these
>symptoms occur in Dwyer/Love Controls PIDs. Thanks for the
>information.
>Ryan

If you search the archives for alt.coffee, you'll see..
Craig.




  
Date: 15 Feb 2007 10:14:17
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
On 15 Feb 2007 10:05:23 -0800, "diab0lus"
<r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote:

>> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
>> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate surrounding
>> environmental temp was something on the order of 130F +. Running the
>> PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to its demise sooner
>> than later. Others here have mentioned erratic operation & display. The
>> Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have if I remember correctly, an
>> upper operating temp of 150F.
>> Craig.
>
>Sorry to you and others for all of the unproductive noise. I can't
>help but think this has deterred others from posting replies.
>

It's been a slow month. We all have a pent up desire to flame

>Anyhow, I am going to contact the manufacturer to see if these
>symptoms occur in Dwyer/Love Controls PIDs. Thanks for the
>information.
>
>Ryan
>

Rots of Ruck


 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 09:51:18
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 14 Feb 2007 23:41:21 -0800, "diab0lus"
<r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote:

>I thought heat might be an issue. I measured 130F in the case

32B Ambient Temperature 0C to 50C = 32F to 122F

For a really cool project you should have made the Low temperature LED
Blue and the High temperature LED Red for truly informative IDIOT
lights.

Definitely a 2007 a.c Darwin award contender!
Bon chance!


 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 09:18:59
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
> 1) take a digital display and replace with an idiot light.

One day I might cut out a place for it between the 2 LEDs that I
installed just to make adjusting the set point quicker, but I don't
want to mess with that right now.


> 2) take a great controller and put it where it can cook.

Do you have any evidence that this will happen in a Silvia? Do you
disapprove of all internal pid installs (front panel and completely
internal) and do you have any proof that it is harmful? I think the
truth is stacked against your claim that it will cook (assuming you
mean overheat and fail). Perhaps these fried pids are with all of the
Silvia pumps that have failed due to periodic back flushing. If my
pid fails and it is due to excessive heat, I will update this thread
and create a new thread describing what happened. Also, I'll
acknowledge that you were right. But until then, you sound like
someone that has an unfounded fear of challenging convention.

<sarcasm >
> super project!

I'm glad someone appreciates it.
</sarcasm >

Ryan




  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 17, 5:35 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2007 13:29:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> how?
> >
> >what's with your antagonism?
>
> i'm trying to find out if you've ever tested the stability of your PID
> installs, and how. you routinely disparage installations which use
> fans, and i'm curious if you've ever really tested the temps on your
> no fan installations, other than just watching the display numbers on
> the PID.


as I said, yes I have.
and
Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
A: no.



   
Date: 18 Feb 2007 12:53:58
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171759786.589090.311680@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 17, 5:35 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
> > On 17 Feb 2007 13:29:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> how?
> > >
> > >what's with your antagonism?
> >
> > i'm trying to find out if you've ever tested the stability of your PID
> > installs, and how. you routinely disparage installations which use
> > fans, and i'm curious if you've ever really tested the temps on your
> > no fan installations, other than just watching the display numbers on
> > the PID.
>
>
> as I said, yes I have.
> and
> Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
> A: no.
>
how?




   
Date: 18 Feb 2007 00:53:07
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
>A: no.

it might. why dismiss the possibility out of hand?





  
Date: 15 Feb 2007 13:18:09
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites AND a cooked 'pid' project.
Dear "r0cket:"

1) If you searched this group for just a little while you'd find a guy who
did cook his controller.

and since you aren't even showing the display -- why place it IN THE BOILER
COMPARTMENT? and please,

2) tell me: when is it EVER a good idea to expose electronics to high temps?
regardless of the "spec." rating??






  
Date: 15 Feb 2007 12:46:03
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

"diab0lus" <r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171559939.941558.236830@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> 1) take a digital display and replace with an idiot light.
>
> One day I might cut out a place for it between the 2 LEDs that I
> installed just to make adjusting the set point quicker, but I don't
> want to mess with that right now.
>
>
>> 2) take a great controller and put it where it can cook.
>
> Do you have any evidence that this will happen in a Silvia? Do you
> disapprove of all internal pid installs (front panel and completely
> internal) and do you have any proof that it is harmful? I think the
> truth is stacked against your claim that it will cook (assuming you
> mean overheat and fail). Perhaps these fried pids are with all of the
> Silvia pumps that have failed due to periodic back flushing. If my
> pid fails and it is due to excessive heat, I will update this thread
> and create a new thread describing what happened. Also, I'll
> acknowledge that you were right. But until then, you sound like
> someone that has an unfounded fear of challenging convention.
>
> <sarcasm>
>> super project!
>
> I'm glad someone appreciates it.
> </sarcasm>
>
> Ryan
>
>

I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate surrounding
environmental temp was something on the order of 130F +. Running the
PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to its demise sooner
than later. Others here have mentioned erratic operation & display. The
Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have if I remember correctly, an
upper operating temp of 150F.
Craig.



   
Date: 15 Feb 2007 18:38:51
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
Howdy Craig!
After getting advice from many folks (some of it was usable & some of it
wasn't, such is the nature of free advice) I developed a panel mounted PID
setup that does away with heat issues.

I've done two installs through the front panels of commercial machines. One
(Bunn ES-1A) was directly over the pump (water leak concerns) & the other
(Nuova Simonelli Mac Digit) ended up with the back too close to the boiler.
For both of these I used a plastic front panel mount enclosure (Hammond
model 1212) with a hole cut into the bottoms to accommodate small exhaust
fans, 1) a 1" 14v DC, 2) a 2 1/2" 115v AC) wired to run when the machine is
turned on. So far there's no performance differences between the 12v & 115v
fans - both maintain 85F within 5F degrees either way. I did seal all
openings of the enclosure with hi-temp silicone & drilled two 1/2" holes
(closed off with fine mesh aluminum screen, as is the exhaust opening) into
the enclosure mounting panel. These holes provide ventilation for the PID
through the front of the machine & the exhaust is ducted to the bottoms of
the machines using flexible vacuum cleaner hose. I'm concerned about
possibly sucking in water & coffee that might be splashed into the air
intakes & the more I think about it the more likely it becomes that I'll
move the air intakes to the bottom of the enclosure.

It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on my
machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID kits, but
they aren't available to the public at any price. The aluminum Bud models
are too rough looking for my tastes & most plastic enclosures didn't look
strong enough to be mounted anywhere but on a flat surface. I bugged the
good folks at Ace Electronics here in Houston & they found the Hammond 1212
panel mount ($13) that fit 1/32 DIN PID's *almost* perfectly. There is a
problem mounting the Watlow 935's because they're longer that the Cal & Love
PID's. I found that by bending the terminal ends of the leads 90 degrees
before installing & routing the wires to a side exit rather than through the
back there was *just* enough room.
Both PID's look like they were installed at the factory & they're working
fine. The golden silence is appreciated since the pstat relays aren't
flipping on & off constantly.
--
Robert (Not everything can be improved, that's why I dumped spouse #1 &
moved up to #2!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:53jkipF1slndmU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate surrounding
> environmental temp was something on the order of 130F +. Running the PID
> at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to its demise sooner than
> later. Others here have mentioned erratic operation & display. The Watlow
> controllers that Jim Gallt uses have if I remember correctly, an upper
> operating temp of 150F.
> Craig.




    
Date: 17 Feb 2007 17:35:31
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 17, 7:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
> >A: no.
>
> it might. why dismiss the possibility out of hand?

oh, I dunno. past experience, maybe?




     
Date: 18 Feb 2007 16:03:22
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 17 Feb 2007 17:35:31 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Feb 17, 7:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>> On 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
>> >A: no.
>>
>> it might. why dismiss the possibility out of hand?
>
>oh, I dunno. past experience, maybe?
>

Dave,

Here's a chance to show your stuff. You've got nothin' to lose, and
you both might learn something. That's what alt.coffee is all about.

North Sulivan
(don't know squat about PID's)



      
Date: 18 Feb 2007 15:20:02
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 16:03:22 -0600, North Sullivan
<northwrites@bluebottle.com > wrote:

>On 17 Feb 2007 17:35:31 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 17, 7:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>>> On 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
>>> >A: no.
>>>
>>> it might. why dismiss the possibility out of hand?
>>
>>oh, I dunno. past experience, maybe?
>>
>
>Dave,
>
>Here's a chance to show your stuff. You've got nothin' to lose, and
>you both might learn something. That's what alt.coffee is all about.
>
>North Sulivan
>(don't know squat about PID's)

Since everyone is hot to know the stability of the PID in the
enclosure, this is what I found using a Love 32B mounted in a Hammond
alloy box, both purchased from DaveB.

With no ventilation, with the box in free air, the internal
temperature of the box rose ~10C over a few hours. Ambient
temperature was ~24C

I tested the stability of the PID reading by place the T TC in a water
bath along with 2 K TC measured with my Extech and Omega, both in free
air. The T is 1/16 and one K is 1/8 stainless, sheathed and grounded.
The other K is bare bead. After nulling the offsets @ 0C, all three
TC were within 0.25C @ 98C. Almost as much variation could be
effected by moving the grouped TC about in the water bath. Variation
did not differ significantly over the enclosure 10C delta.

With the box mounted under the drip tray, the temperature rise was
~6C. PID temperature stability not tested.

With a 3mm cooling slot in either side and two in the bottom, the
temperature rise is < 3C. PID temperature stability not tested.

With cooling slots and mounted under the drip tray, the temperature
rise is less. PID temperature stability not tested.


     
Date: 18 Feb 2007 12:54:13
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171762531.765958.258940@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 17, 7:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
> > On 17 Feb 2007 16:49:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Q:would it make any difference if I told you all about it?
> > >A: no.
> >
> > it might. why dismiss the possibility out of hand?
>
> oh, I dunno. past experience, maybe?
>
>

how?




    
Date: 15 Feb 2007 14:51:27
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
, that's why I dumped spouse #1 &
> moved up to #2!) Harmon


WHO DUMPED WHOM??


d




    
Date: 15 Feb 2007 14:37:13
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:%M1Bh.2478$Jl.108@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Howdy Craig!
> After getting advice from many folks (some of it was usable & some of
> it wasn't, such is the nature of free advice) I developed a panel
> mounted PID setup that does away with heat issues.
>
> I've done two installs through the front panels of commercial
> machines. One (Bunn ES-1A) was directly over the pump (water leak
> concerns) & the other (Nuova Simonelli Mac Digit) ended up with the
> back too close to the boiler. For both of these I used a plastic front
> panel mount enclosure (Hammond model 1212) with a hole cut into the
> bottoms to accommodate small exhaust fans, 1) a 1" 14v DC, 2) a 2 1/2"
> 115v AC) wired to run when the machine is turned on. So far there's no
> performance differences between the 12v & 115v fans - both maintain
> 85F within 5F degrees either way. I did seal all openings of the
> enclosure with hi-temp silicone & drilled two 1/2" holes (closed off
> with fine mesh aluminum screen, as is the exhaust opening) into the
> enclosure mounting panel. These holes provide ventilation for the PID
> through the front of the machine & the exhaust is ducted to the
> bottoms of the machines using flexible vacuum cleaner hose. I'm
> concerned about possibly sucking in water & coffee that might be
> splashed into the air intakes & the more I think about it the more
> likely it becomes that I'll move the air intakes to the bottom of the
> enclosure.
>
> It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on
> my machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID
> kits, but they aren't available to the public at any price. The
> aluminum Bud models are too rough looking for my tastes & most plastic
> enclosures didn't look strong enough to be mounted anywhere but on a
> flat surface. I bugged the good folks at Ace Electronics here in
> Houston & they found the Hammond 1212 panel mount ($13) that fit 1/32
> DIN PID's *almost* perfectly. There is a problem mounting the Watlow
> 935's because they're longer that the Cal & Love PID's. I found that
> by bending the terminal ends of the leads 90 degrees before installing
> & routing the wires to a side exit rather than through the back there
> was *just* enough room.
> Both PID's look like they were installed at the factory & they're
> working fine. The golden silence is appreciated since the pstat relays
> aren't flipping on & off constantly.
> --
> Robert (Not everything can be improved, that's why I dumped spouse #1
> & moved up to #2!) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:53jkipF1slndmU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
>> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate
>> surrounding environmental temp was something on the order of 130F +.
>> Running the PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to
>> its demise sooner than later. Others here have mentioned erratic
>> operation & display. The Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have
>> if I remember correctly, an upper operating temp of 150F.
>> Craig.
>
>

Hi Robert, thank you for all that info! {;-)
I remember you mentioning about the Bunn ES-1A, as you said where your
wife sits in an easychair that the machine was mere feet away on the
counter directly behind the miss's head! {:-O & the constant clickin/ &
cycling of the stat was driving here crazy!!
Would you have any pics of the Bunn ES-1A) & the Nuova Simonelli Mac
Digit for us to see please? I have seen other front panel mounts of the
Silvia with internal mount & fan vented through the front through a
screen mesh.
Cheers!
Sincerely,
Craig.



     
Date: 16 Feb 2007 14:00:08
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:53jr37F1rg5raU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%M1Bh.2478$Jl.108@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Howdy Craig!
>> After getting advice from many folks (some of it was usable & some of
>> it wasn't, such is the nature of free advice) I developed a panel
>> mounted PID setup that does away with heat issues.
>>
>> I've done two installs through the front panels of commercial
>> machines. One (Bunn ES-1A) was directly over the pump (water leak
>> concerns) & the other (Nuova Simonelli Mac Digit) ended up with the
>> back too close to the boiler. For both of these I used a plastic
>> front panel mount enclosure (Hammond model 1212) with a hole cut into
>> the bottoms to accommodate small exhaust fans, 1) a 1" 14v DC, 2) a 2
>> 1/2" 115v AC) wired to run when the machine is turned on. So far
>> there's no performance differences between the 12v & 115v fans - both
>> maintain 85F within 5F degrees either way. I did seal all openings of
>> the enclosure with hi-temp silicone & drilled two 1/2" holes (closed
>> off with fine mesh aluminum screen, as is the exhaust opening) into
>> the enclosure mounting panel. These holes provide ventilation for the
>> PID through the front of the machine & the exhaust is ducted to the
>> bottoms of the machines using flexible vacuum cleaner hose. I'm
>> concerned about possibly sucking in water & coffee that might be
>> splashed into the air intakes & the more I think about it the more
>> likely it becomes that I'll move the air intakes to the bottom of the
>> enclosure.
>>
>> It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on
>> my machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID
>> kits, but they aren't available to the public at any price. The
>> aluminum Bud models are too rough looking for my tastes & most
>> plastic enclosures didn't look strong enough to be mounted anywhere
>> but on a flat surface. I bugged the good folks at Ace Electronics
>> here in Houston & they found the Hammond 1212 panel mount ($13) that
>> fit 1/32 DIN PID's *almost* perfectly. There is a problem mounting
>> the Watlow 935's because they're longer that the Cal & Love PID's. I
>> found that by bending the terminal ends of the leads 90 degrees
>> before installing & routing the wires to a side exit rather than
>> through the back there was *just* enough room.
>> Both PID's look like they were installed at the factory & they're
>> working fine. The golden silence is appreciated since the pstat
>> relays aren't flipping on & off constantly.
>> --
>> Robert (Not everything can be improved, that's why I dumped spouse #1
>> & moved up to #2!) Harmon
>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>
>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>> news:53jkipF1slndmU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
>>> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate
>>> surrounding environmental temp was something on the order of 130F
>>> +. Running the PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add
>>> to its demise sooner than later. Others here have mentioned erratic
>>> operation & display. The Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have
>>> if I remember correctly, an upper operating temp of 150F.
>>> Craig.
>>
>>
>
> Hi Robert, thank you for all that info! {;-)
> I remember you mentioning about the Bunn ES-1A, as you said where your
> wife sits in an easychair that the machine was mere feet away on the
> counter directly behind the miss's head! {:-O & the constant clickin/
> & cycling of the stat was driving here crazy!!
> Would you have any pics of the Bunn ES-1A) & the Nuova Simonelli Mac
> Digit for us to see please? I have seen other front panel mounts of
> the Silvia with internal mount & fan vented through the front through
> a screen mesh.
> Cheers!
> Sincerely,
> Craig.

Pics please!
Craig.



      
Date: 16 Feb 2007 19:17:55
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
I hear you Craig! I'll try & get some up on my web page. First I'll have to
clear out some space for them but hopefully they'll be up SOON.
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:53mdb6F1tghmsU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:53jr37F1rg5raU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:%M1Bh.2478$Jl.108@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> Howdy Craig!
>>> After getting advice from many folks (some of it was usable & some of it
>>> wasn't, such is the nature of free advice) I developed a panel mounted
>>> PID setup that does away with heat issues.
>>>
>>> I've done two installs through the front panels of commercial machines.
>>> One (Bunn ES-1A) was directly over the pump (water leak concerns) & the
>>> other (Nuova Simonelli Mac Digit) ended up with the back too close to
>>> the boiler. For both of these I used a plastic front panel mount
>>> enclosure (Hammond model 1212) with a hole cut into the bottoms to
>>> accommodate small exhaust fans, 1) a 1" 14v DC, 2) a 2 1/2" 115v AC)
>>> wired to run when the machine is turned on. So far there's no
>>> performance differences between the 12v & 115v fans - both maintain 85F
>>> within 5F degrees either way. I did seal all openings of the enclosure
>>> with hi-temp silicone & drilled two 1/2" holes (closed off with fine
>>> mesh aluminum screen, as is the exhaust opening) into the enclosure
>>> mounting panel. These holes provide ventilation for the PID through the
>>> front of the machine & the exhaust is ducted to the bottoms of the
>>> machines using flexible vacuum cleaner hose. I'm concerned about
>>> possibly sucking in water & coffee that might be splashed into the air
>>> intakes & the more I think about it the more likely it becomes that I'll
>>> move the air intakes to the bottom of the enclosure.
>>>
>>> It was hard to find enclosures that looked like something I'd want on my
>>> machines. The best looking is Jim's S/S models used in his PID kits, but
>>> they aren't available to the public at any price. The aluminum Bud
>>> models are too rough looking for my tastes & most plastic enclosures
>>> didn't look strong enough to be mounted anywhere but on a flat surface.
>>> I bugged the good folks at Ace Electronics here in Houston & they found
>>> the Hammond 1212 panel mount ($13) that fit 1/32 DIN PID's *almost*
>>> perfectly. There is a problem mounting the Watlow 935's because they're
>>> longer that the Cal & Love PID's. I found that by bending the terminal
>>> ends of the leads 90 degrees before installing & routing the wires to a
>>> side exit rather than through the back there was *just* enough room.
>>> Both PID's look like they were installed at the factory & they're
>>> working fine. The golden silence is appreciated since the pstat relays
>>> aren't flipping on & off constantly.
>>> --
>>> Robert (Not everything can be improved, that's why I dumped spouse #1 &
>>> moved up to #2!) Harmon
>>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>>> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
>>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>>
>>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>>> news:53jkipF1slndmU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I haven't searched, but I remember reading here that at the location
>>>> mentioned that to mount an internal PID there, the immediate
>>>> surrounding environmental temp was something on the order of 130F +.
>>>> Running the PID at it's uppermost design limits will surely add to its
>>>> demise sooner than later. Others here have mentioned erratic operation
>>>> & display. The Watlow controllers that Jim Gallt uses have if I
>>>> remember correctly, an upper operating temp of 150F.
>>>> Craig.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hi Robert, thank you for all that info! {;-)
>> I remember you mentioning about the Bunn ES-1A, as you said where your
>> wife sits in an easychair that the machine was mere feet away on the
>> counter directly behind the miss's head! {:-O & the constant clickin/ &
>> cycling of the stat was driving here crazy!!
>> Would you have any pics of the Bunn ES-1A) & the Nuova Simonelli Mac
>> Digit for us to see please? I have seen other front panel mounts of the
>> Silvia with internal mount & fan vented through the front through a
>> screen mesh.
>> Cheers!
>> Sincerely,
>> Craig.
>
> Pics please!
> Craig.




       
Date: 16 Feb 2007 14:21:09
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:DrnBh.2783$Jl.2069@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I hear you Craig! I'll try & get some up on my web page. First I'll
>have to clear out some space for them but hopefully they'll be up SOON.
> --
> Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon

Great Robert, I'm lookin' forward to them & thanks!
Craig.



 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 08:52:28
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites for a cooked 'pid' project.
On Feb 15, 11:39 am, "diab0lus" <r0cketscient...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > You think that e-mails always get through? hmmm, perhaps not.


Really? well thank you for that.

and the mfg of the controller will need proof of purchase, etc. -- so
good luck with that.

thanks for the step-by-step on how to:

1) take a digital display and replace with an idiot light.
2) take a great controller and put it where it can cook.

super project!

Dave






 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 08:39:02
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
> You think that e-mails always get through? hmmm, perhaps not.

I guess I didn't get the one you sent advising me that shipment was
delayed for 10 days for whatever reason you had.


> you'd rather post a snotty rek.

Consider it credit against the dozens that you have make towards other
people, including me, in the past.


> and why were you in a HURRYdo
> this hack job?

I wasn't. I took my time to do it the way I wanted it done, with the
exception of accidentally turning the Dremel tool on after I took it
out of the hole and king the case. I don't see how this is a
"hack" job. It is no different than a front mounted pid installation
with the exception of having some, probably negligable, heat
dissipation through the front panel of the pid.


> do NOT look to me for warranty support or ANY support on this
> equipment, as you are abusing it. good to know.

That is what I expected anyway. I have already planned to deal
directly with the manufacturer in the event that I have a problem.


> Ah well, your time is yours to do with as you see fit
> "r0cketscientist"

Perhaps that comment will have you realize that you have no more to
add to this discussion.

On another note, thanks for the good deal on the pid kit. After
buying the wire and crimps, it only cost about $104 installed.
Although, you should update your auction listing if you haven't
already to indicate that it ships with a 25A and not a 40A relay.

Ryan



  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 13:29:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 17, 3:40 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2007 12:20:27 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID afterward,
> >> have you?
> >
> >Uh, matter of fact, I have, Barry.
> >
>
> how?

what's with your antagonism?



   
Date: 18 Feb 2007 12:53:45
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171747786.130571.56130@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 17, 3:40 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
> > On 17 Feb 2007 12:20:27 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID
afterward,
> > >> have you?
> > >
> > >Uh, matter of fact, I have, Barry.
> > >
> >
> > how?
>
> what's with your antagonism?
>
how?




   
Date: 17 Feb 2007 22:35:29
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 17 Feb 2007 13:29:46 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>> how?
>
>what's with your antagonism?

i'm trying to find out if you've ever tested the stability of your PID
installs, and how. you routinely disparage installations which use
fans, and i'm curious if you've ever really tested the temps on your
no fan installations, other than just watching the display numbers on
the PID.



 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 07:30:50
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 15, 10:21 am, "diab0lus" <r0cketscient...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > So, you enclosed the PID controller inside the boiler compartment?
>
> That's correct. Right where it would be according to Pepe's
> installation instructions, just without the hole in the front panel.
>
> > Are you TRYING to kill it off, by running it right at the edge of the
> > ambient it will tolerate? WHY would you do that?
>
> I expect it to run with no problems. The company claims that it will
> run in 130F ambient conditions; I will hold them to that.
>
> > plus you have ZERO understanding of the voltages used by neon vs. led.
> > as Mr. Smith sez. -- and many other things. I do like the autograph
> > on the front, tho'.
>
> That is an incorrect assumption. I couldn't source the original neon
> parts that I was looking for and after a few hours, I gave up. Why
> does it matter anyway (LED or neon)? It doesn't. Provide a source
> for 120VAC 3" surface mount neon lights if you have one.
>
> > a completely moronic waste of time.
>
> Perhaps you should spend less time posting nonconstructive criticism
> and more time shipping your PID kits in a timely manner and responding
> to your customer's inquiries.
>
> Ryan

You think that e-mails always get through? hmmm, perhaps not.

you'd rather post a snotty rek. and why were you in a HURRYdo
this hack job?

do NOT look to me for warranty support or ANY support on this
equipment, as you are abusing it. good to know.

Ah well, your time is yours to do with as you see fit
"r0cketscientist"




 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 07:21:09
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
> So, you enclosed the PID controller inside the boiler compartment?

That's correct. Right where it would be according to Pepe's
installation instructions, just without the hole in the front panel.


> Are you TRYING to kill it off, by running it right at the edge of the
> ambient it will tolerate? WHY would you do that?

I expect it to run with no problems. The company claims that it will
run in 130F ambient conditions; I will hold them to that.


> plus you have ZERO understanding of the voltages used by neon vs. led.
> as Mr. Smith sez. -- and many other things. I do like the autograph
> on the front, tho'.

That is an incorrect assumption. I couldn't source the original neon
parts that I was looking for and after a few hours, I gave up. Why
does it matter anyway (LED or neon)? It doesn't. Provide a source
for 120VAC 3" surface mount neon lights if you have one.


> a completely moronic waste of time.

Perhaps you should spend less time posting nonconstructive criticism
and more time shipping your PID kits in a timely manner and responding
to your customer's inquiries.


Ryan



  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 12:24:27
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Idiot lites and a cooked 'pid'
On Feb 17, 2:10 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2007 04:07:24 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hmmm,
> >been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
> >b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.


> and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID afterward,
> have you?

Uh, matter of fact, I have, Barry.

BTW, what's with your antagonism?

D
www.hitechespresso.com



   
Date: 18 Feb 2007 12:54:36
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Idiot lites and a cooked 'pid'

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171743867.427163.42370@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 17, 2:10 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
> > On 17 Feb 2007 04:07:24 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Hmmm,
> > >been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
> > >b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.
>
>
> > and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID afterward,
> > have you?
>
> Uh, matter of fact, I have, Barry.
>
> BTW, what's with your antagonism?
>
> D
> www.hitechespresso.com
>

how?





  
Date: 17 Feb 2007 12:20:27
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 17, 2:10 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 17 Feb 2007 04:07:24 -0800, "daveb" <davebobbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hmmm,
> >been doing 100% reliable, internal, hidden installs for 2 years. NO
> >b.s. fans or holes and NO plastic or "custom" boxes.
> >
>
> and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID afterward,
> have you?

Uh, matter of fact, I have, Barry.

BTW, what's with your antagonism?

D
www.hitechespresso.com



   
Date: 17 Feb 2007 20:40:17
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 17 Feb 2007 12:20:27 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>> and i bet you've never tested the temp stability of the PID afterward,
>> have you?
>
>Uh, matter of fact, I have, Barry.
>

how?



 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 07:04:42
From: diab0lus
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 15, 3:17 am, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk > wrote:
> On 14 Feb 2007 23:41:21 -0800, diab0lus <r0cketscient...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I got this idea from Murph's Siliva PID Page, but I didn't use a neon
> > light. I wanted to, but I didn't want to have to buy a transformer,
> > rectifier, power supply or whatever to convert 120VAC to 12VDC (I
> > found some really cool after ket PC and car lighting to install if
> > anyone is interesting in doing a DC alarm).
>
> Eh? You used a LED rather than a neon because you had high AC voltage
> not low DC?
>
> LEDs require low DC. Neons are happy with high AC. Neons exist
> because you can simply slap them across high voltage AC without any
> other shenanigans, as is the case in all teh existing indicators in
> Silvia.
>
> regards, Ian SMith
> --
>


 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 05:18:02
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
Well, it is a nice, neat appearance but I'm not sure I see the point.
Why give up the readouts on the controller in favor of a couple of
LEDs? Just to hide the controller?

I also share dave's concern about locating the controller in an
environment that is both hot and damp.

My sense is that this is a solution in search of a problem but maybe
I'm missing something. Can you explain your rationale?



 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 04:54:08
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On Feb 15, 2:41 am, "diab0lus" <r0cketscient...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I got this idea from Murph's Siliva PID Page, but I didn't use a neon
> light. I wanted to, but I didn't want to have to buy a transformer,
> rectifier, power supply or whatever to convert 120VAC to 12VDC (I
> found some really cool after ket PC and car lighting to install if
> anyone is interesting in doing a DC alarm).
>
> Here are pics of the install (yes, I gave her a tattoo while doing
> this):
>
> http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs412&d=07074&f=pidalarm1.jpghttp://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs412&d=07074&f=pidalarm2.jpg
>
> It is very simple, costs under $12.00, uses the existing Rancilio
> badge holes and requires only two different parts:
>
> - (2) Blue Sea Systems 11/64" 120V LED w/ leads
> - specs:http://bluesea.com/category/8/33/productline/overview/
> 229
> - best price shipped:http://www.boatfix.com- search by part
> number from manufacturers web site.
>
> - (1) piece of 2-3" wire rated for 120V
> - Solid wire is probably better for this application
> - You might need a longer wire depending on your pid
> - You could buy two spades [about $.12 each] to crimp on the ends
> of the wire. It would probably make things a little easier.
>
> Your PID will need to be AC powered and have an AC alarm/output relay
> in order do to this in the way I am describing. The Love 32B output 2
> relay is rated at 250VAC and 5A, so 120V is no problem and the draw is
> no more than 1 mA with two of these 120V LEDs.
>
> [[==================================================================]]
> [[__--==<<It's not my fault if you kill yourself doing this.>>==--__]]
> [[==================================================================]]
>
> 1. Power off the machine and unplug it.
>
> 2. The holes from the Rancilio badge are 4mm. The mounting hole size
> required for this LED is 11/64" or 4.36mm. You could try to sand down
> the LED, but I chose to enlarge the badge holes by 0.36mm or 0.014".
> I used a dremel tool with a conical filing bit attached to it. I
> pulsed the dremel tool using low speed and high pressure to enlarge
> the holes. This took about as long as the rest of the steps
> combined. I didn't feel that any lubricant was necessary. By using
> short pulses and high pressure the steel never got too hot to touch.
> Keep test fitting the LED and filing until you can easily push the LED
> in the hole until the little ribs on the side of the light touch the
> metal.
>
> 3. Push the LED all the way in once the ribbing hits the metal. You
> might need to use a tool to help. The chuck wrench for the Dremel
> tool was perfect because the hole in the middle was slightly larger
> than the LED, but not as big as the LED socket. I placed LED bulb in
> the hole on the wrench and pushed the wrench until it seated the LED
> up against the case. This did put little scratches on the bulb
> socket, but it is hardly noticeable (unlike the big scratch I made on
> the case with the Dremel tool).
>
> 4. Disconnect both of the 120V power wires going into the pid.
>
> 5. Strip the new wire about 1/4" on each side and bend it enough to
> hook around the screw terminals on the back of pid.
>
> 6. Piggyback the new wire onto the power terminal with one of the
> original power wires and tighten so that both wires are securely
> attached. No bare wire should be exposed outside of the terminal.
> Give a tug on both wires. It could be very bad if one of those wires
> became disconnected while the power is on.
>
> 7. Connect the other end of the new wire to the relay (I attached
> mine to the + side, but I don't think it matters).
>
> 8. Twist the bare end of one wire from each LED together, bend the
> bare end into a hook and attach to the other relay terminal.
>
> 9. Twist the remaining wire from each LED together and piggyback it
> onto the remaining power wire and tighten well (like in step 4). The
> connections should look like this. Both original power wires are
> connected to their original location. A small wire is patched from
> one of the power terminals to the relay terminal on the back of the
> pid. The two LEDs leads are twisted together with one wire from each
> LED connected to the other side of the relay (not the hot side) and
> the other LED wires are connected to the other power terminal (not the
> terminal with the piggyback wire attached to it).
>
> 10. Turn on the machine and configure your alarm. The reverse
> deviation upper and lower limit alarm type will allow you to specify
> when you want the alarm to come on in relation to the set value. I
> have mine set for +0.1 / -0.1. So the light comes on when the
> temperature reading is 227.4 through 227.6. The +/- deviation doesn't
> need to be the same value (at least on my pid). If you change your
> set value, the deviation remains the same, so their is no need to
> adjust the alarm when you change your set value.
>
> I start the shot after the light has been on for a few seconds. If I
> just pulled a shot, it usually, but not always, overshoots the first
> time so I ignore the first light. After that it is good to go.
>
> I thought heat might be an issue. I measured 130F in the case where
> the pid is located. It jumped to 140F after steaming the boiler dry
> (to find the extreme) then cooled down to 130F. It wasn't above 130F
> long enough for me to worry about it and this pid is rated for 130F
> operating environment. I might wrap it in reflective thermal
> insulation, but I am open to suggestions.
>
> Ryan

So, you enclosed the PID controller inside the boiler compartment?

Are you TRYING to kill it off, by running it right at the edge of the
ambient it will tolerate? WHY would you do that?

plus you have ZERO understanding of the voltages used by neon vs. led.
as Mr. Smith sez. -- and many other things. I do like the autograph
on the front, tho'.

a completely moronic waste of time.

I would not want to be near any "rockets" you are involved with,
"r0cketscientist".




 
Date: 15 Feb 2007 08:17:12
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Stealth PID install w/ alarm lights
On 14 Feb 2007 23:41:21 -0800, diab0lus <r0cketscientist@hotmail.com > wrote:

> I got this idea from Murph's Siliva PID Page, but I didn't use a neon
> light. I wanted to, but I didn't want to have to buy a transformer,
> rectifier, power supply or whatever to convert 120VAC to 12VDC (I
> found some really cool after ket PC and car lighting to install if
> anyone is interesting in doing a DC alarm).

Eh? You used a LED rather than a neon because you had high AC voltage
not low DC?

LEDs require low DC. Neons are happy with high AC. Neons exist
because you can simply slap them across high voltage AC without any
other shenanigans, as is the case in all teh existing indicators in
Silvia.

regards, Ian SMith
--