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Date: 10 Jan 2007 08:20:41
From: daveb
Subject: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
Not really scientific taste tests show that lower temps are yielding
more compliments.

Drink: 2 oz espresso
Coffee: Black cat roasted 1/4/07
grinder: La Cimbali Jr.
machine: old style silvia w/ cal controller

219 F on the controller -- Wows! from the wife and my part-timer, Wade

customer are also reporting temps in the LOW 220s or high teens improve
results.

Dave
www.hitechespresso.com





 
Date: 15 Jan 2007 19:19:31
From:
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.

daveb wrote:
> exactly!
>
> Dave
> 206
> www.hitechespresso.com
>
> Jules:
> >
> > Practice... trial and error... this is a hobby isn't ?

Any suggestions on placement of a thermocouple to accurately monitor
group temp??
I thought (for my own enlightenment) I'd run the datalogger on the
group.
Stan S



  
Date: 15 Jan 2007 22:39:07
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On 15 Jan 2007 19:19:31 -0800, stan.shire@gmail.com wrote:


>Any suggestions on placement of a thermocouple to accurately monitor
>group temp??
>I thought (for my own enlightenment) I'd run the datalogger on the
>group.
>Stan S

Try Eric Svendson's adapter:

http://tinyurl.com/y3nr9l

I have made and installed a few of these. They work very well and can
be completely hidden inside a Silvia.

Jim

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 15 Jan 2007 17:18:17
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.

exactly!

Dave
206
www.hitechespresso.com

Jules:
>
> Practice... trial and error... this is a hobby isn't ?



 
Date: 12 Jan 2007 05:08:38
From: JulesG
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
Thanks all for that valuable information, in particular Eric and Jim
for your comprehensive explanations. I think this is a very important
step in making better espresso and it is unfortunately overlooked by
most.

Practice... trial and error... this is a hobby isn't ?



 
Date: 11 Jan 2007 18:59:50
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
try lower Jules,
NO flushing.

Dave



 
Date: 12 Jan 2007 09:20:31
From: Rusty
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1168446041.202472.310870@k58g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Not really scientific taste tests show that lower temps are yielding
> more compliments.
>
> Drink: 2 oz espresso
> Coffee: Black cat roasted 1/4/07
> grinder: La Cimbali Jr.
> machine: old style silvia w/ cal controller
>
> 219 F on the controller -- Wows! from the wife and my part-timer, Wade
>
> customer are also reporting temps in the LOW 220s or high teens improve
> results.
>
> Dave
> www.hitechespresso.com
>
Hi Dave,

I tried 219 on my PID SV and you are correct. The taste is much better,
less bitterness.

Rusty





 
Date: 11 Jan 2007 04:53:55
From: JulesG
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
Very interesting reading ! In your opinion what is the ideal procedure
with Silvia, regarding flushing ?

- Flushing before ?
- If so, how long before the shot ?
- What quantity ?

- Cleaning flush ?
- What quantity ?

My PID Silvia is set at 228. I don't flush before and I do a cleaning
flush after, about 0.5 oz. . However, I'm not very experienced and I
would like to learn the proper way from you guys.

Thanks



  
Date: 11 Jan 2007 23:51:57
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On 11 Jan 2007 04:53:55 -0800, "JulesG" <jules.gobeil@videotron.ca >
wrote:

>Very interesting reading ! In your opinion what is the ideal procedure
>with Silvia, regarding flushing ?
>
>- Flushing before ?
>- If so, how long before the shot ?
>- What quantity ?
>
>- Cleaning flush ?
>- What quantity ?
>
>My PID Silvia is set at 228. I don't flush before and I do a cleaning
>flush after, about 0.5 oz. . However, I'm not very experienced and I
>would like to learn the proper way from you guys.
>
>Thanks

Hi, Jules -

As you can tell by the variety of opinions, there is not one right
answer. All I can tell you is what my test data show, and what works
for me.

My data show that getting a 200F brew temperature requires a SV of
around 228F and a fully warmed up group (in the vicinity of 195F).
With your machine set this way, you can walk up to it and pull a shot
and your brew water will be around 200F. The data show that you can
also do a small cleaning flush before you pull the shot (1-2oz), let
everything stabilize again (2-3 minutes) while you prepare your puck,
and pull your shot. Whether you do the flush or not, you should get
around the same brew temp.

If you are doing back-to-back shots, the data show that the group will
heat up and this will result in your brew temperature creeping up on
shots 1...n. The data show that you can control this temperature
creep on back-to-back shots by doing a flush (2-3 oz) between shots.

Now, if 200F is not the right temperature for your roast, then your SV
should be lower or higher. Or if you keep your house pretty warm,
over 70F, then you can probably drop the SV by a degree or two because
the group won't loose as much heat to the surroundings and will be
warmer.

Ultimately, the right temperature is the one that tastes good,
*consistently*.

The trap that you don't want to fall in, though, is to set your SV
low, then do something that causes the group to be warmer than 195F
(steaming, consecutive shots, a flush immediately before pulling your
shot) - and then get a great shot. (Kind of like being right about
something, but for the wrong reasons).

To get this same great shot time after time you would have to
duplicate the process or your group temperature could be too low as a
result of the lower SV.

It sounds like Jim does a flush right before he pulls his shot. This
will warm up the group for a short period. So a SV of 220F can give a
shot that might be equivalent to 228F without the flush. But I
suspect that if he just walks up to the machine, without doing any
flushing, he would probably measure a shot temperature that is several
degrees cooler.

I find it easiest to leave the SV at 228F and do a "chunk-clearing"
flush 2-4 minutes before I pull my shot. I leave the water in the
shot glass to warm it up. I am not the fastest puck-preparer, so the
machine has always stabilized by the time I am ready to pull the shot.
I have a group temp sensor mounted, so I can see both the group
temperature before the shot, and the upstream water during the shot.
This procedure gives me very consistent shot temperatures within a
degree or two of 200F - and espresso that tastes good.

Jim

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



  
Date: 11 Jan 2007 11:01:10
From: Eric Svendson
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
It depends upon whether or not you are drinking straight espresso or making
a cappy/latte. Let's assume you are making straight espresso AND you have
cleaned your grouphead after the previous shot (an hour or so ago) by either
using one of those super nifty Pallo Brushes or doing a "wiggle wash" with a
blank portafilter basket. A reasonable cleaning with this grouphead brush
takes about 3 ounces of water while a PF wiggle probably takes less.

http://www.espressoparts.com/category/05cleaningmaintenance.espressocoffeebrushes/

Whether or not your previous shot was straight espresso or a milk drink
doesn't matter because now your machine is fully temperature stable,
including the all important grouphead.

If you pulled a double-shot now, all should be well so jot down a note or
two to yourself describing the shot. If you do your 0.5 oz cleaning flush
immediately after pulling the shot, that (by itself) will have little effect
on grouphead temps and your PID should get the machine back to within 1
degree of your setpoint within about 1 minute from the end of your 0.5 oz.
cleaning flush. But now your grouphead has gone up a couple of degrees by
virtue of the shot you pulled and, if you were to pull another shot now, the
average shot temp would be up those same couple of degrees. So, do this and
jot down some notes on that shot (the second shot). Can you discern a
difference? Some beans have a reputation for being "good" at a relatively
wide temperature range (+/- 3 degrees) while others are very picky. The
bean that DaveB used for tasting in his post that initiated this does have a
reputation for being very flexible re temperature and also a very good
espresso blend.

Now to try and answer your specific questions with a routine (strong
emphasis on "a"):

Clean/flush cold machine
45-60 minute warm-up
pull shot & enjoy
clean/flush hot machine
wait 15 minutes
pull shot & enjoy

If you make cappy's, you need to flush about 3 to 4 ounces of water to take
the grouphead back to some reasonable temperature for shots. As with lots
of other adventures, I truly do not believe there is an ideal procedure with
Silvia or just about any other espresso machine but it is important to know
that just because a PID says "228" doesn't mean "at the ready, sir". It's
also important to know that Silvia will creep up in temperature if shots are
pulled closely in succession and that steaming takes grouphead temperatures
into unchartered territory.

Eric S.



"JulesG" <jules.gobeil@videotron.ca > wrote in message
news:1168520035.653413.81380@o58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Very interesting reading ! In your opinion what is the ideal procedure
> with Silvia, regarding flushing ?
>
> - Flushing before ?
> - If so, how long before the shot ?
> - What quantity ?
>
> - Cleaning flush ?
> - What quantity ?
>
> My PID Silvia is set at 228. I don't flush before and I do a cleaning
> flush after, about 0.5 oz. . However, I'm not very experienced and I
> would like to learn the proper way from you guys.
>
> Thanks
>





 
Date: 10 Jan 2007 18:52:06
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
fine. But I'll bet maybe 4 of my customers ever took the temp of their
puck!



 
Date: 10 Jan 2007 18:40:36
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
I am measuring the temperatures the old fashioned way -- and by the
ultimate criterion -- taste.

As I tell my customers, change the temp. to produce the TASTE YOU
desire, not what the thermometer sez.

<< Andy in MI, Stan in PA, Ray, Greg in ON, and others have found this
to be true. >>

Analogy: "You don't buy a computer to run benchks, you buy it to do
WORK."

Dave
www.hitechespresso.com



  
Date: 10 Jan 2007 21:48:51
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1168483236.534436.188840@p59g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>I am measuring the temperatures the old fashioned way -- and by the
> ultimate criterion -- taste.
>
> As I tell my customers, change the temp. to produce the TASTE YOU
> desire, not what the thermometer sez.
>
> << Andy in MI, Stan in PA, Ray, Greg in ON, and others have found this
> to be true.>>
>
> Analogy: "You don't buy a computer to run benchks, you buy it to
> do
> WORK."
>
> Dave
> www.hitechespresso.com
>

Yeah, but once you get the taste YOU desire., then you can duplicate it
time again with the PID display, puck temp., whatever method YOU use..
Craig.



 
Date: 10 Jan 2007 16:50:56
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On 10 Jan 2007 08:20:41 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>219 F on the controller -- Wows! from the wife and my part-timer, Wade
>
>customer are also reporting temps in the LOW 220s or high teens improve
>results.
>
>Dave
>www.hitechespresso.com

The machines I got from you seem to produce 200F to 202F shots when
set at 220F. Perhaps there's been small changes over the year to the
boiler's top geometry, e.g. the tstat dimples, or the way the group
attaches, since the upper 220s, which the original PIDers ran, seems
too high for more recent machines.

Btw, for my temp tests, I flushed the group head as I ground the shot
to heat it up. By the time the pf was loaded, the temperature was
back in range. Perhaps people running the higher temps do it
differently? If they flush immediately ahead of the shot, the temp
will drop a bit.


  
Date: 11 Jan 2007 00:19:02
From: Eric Svendson
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
With a PID'ed Silvia, so much depends upon what shot (in a series) you are
referring to and one own's particular modus operandi with the machine. To
set the Sv value at 220 and do some rather extensive flushing - hey this
ain't no hx machine (grin) Jim S. and find that the shot at 200-202 is good
is (obviously) fine. And you are, most definitely, heating up the group
from around 184 to the mid 190's. You are accomplishing the same thing as
those who pull their first shot in the morning with Sv at 228 with
essentially no flushing.

As Jim G. reported on HB (
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2813 ), successive shots
starting from a fully warmed up machine with the PID set at 228 (under the
left-most brew thermostat screw) tend to creep up unless the group is given
a chance to cool down from the previous shot. Years ago, Mike McCoffee,
again on either HB or CG, reported the same exact experience (actually his
was sort of a complaint). While I have never specifically timed it, this
particular cool down period seems to be around 15-20 minutes.

And, if I could drop my habit for a day, I would set Sv down to 219-220 and
run some "first shot in the morning after 45-60 minute warm-up" thermofilter
tests. I certainly would do a taste test also but these gizmo's that some
of us have installed on our machines certainly allow more accurate
correlation of taste and temperature for a given bean/bean blend and pave
the way for increased repeatibility.

Eric S.


"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:g4raq2h1c8nkgsnppfr54p6nccl9rslarr@4ax.com...
> On 10 Jan 2007 08:20:41 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>219 F on the controller -- Wows! from the wife and my part-timer, Wade
>>
>>customer are also reporting temps in the LOW 220s or high teens improve
>>results.
>>
>>Dave
>>www.hitechespresso.com
>
> The machines I got from you seem to produce 200F to 202F shots when
> set at 220F. Perhaps there's been small changes over the year to the
> boiler's top geometry, e.g. the tstat dimples, or the way the group
> attaches, since the upper 220s, which the original PIDers ran, seems
> too high for more recent machines.
>
> Btw, for my temp tests, I flushed the group head as I ground the shot
> to heat it up. By the time the pf was loaded, the temperature was
> back in range. Perhaps people running the higher temps do it
> differently? If they flush immediately ahead of the shot, the temp
> will drop a bit.




   
Date: 11 Jan 2007 00:35:09
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:19:02 -0500, "Eric Svendson" <erics@erols.com >
wrote:


>As Jim G. reported on HB (
>http://www.home-barista.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2813 ), successive shots
>starting from a fully warmed up machine with the PID set at 228 (under the
>left-most brew thermostat screw) tend to creep up unless the group is given
>a chance to cool down from the previous shot. Years ago, Mike McCoffee,
>again on either HB or CG, reported the same exact experience (actually his
>was sort of a complaint). While I have never specifically timed it, this
>particular cool down period seems to be around 15-20 minutes.

The middle series of shots in those data were done with 'cleaning'
flushes between the shots. The shots separated by flushes were more
repeatable and didn't show the temperature creep.

http://tinyurl.com/y6fnfo

The data also confirm that your estimate of 15 minutes is about right
for restabilizing if you don't do any flushing. I called these
'walkup shots.'

Jim


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



  
Date: 10 Jan 2007 18:45:19
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:50:56 -0600, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>On 10 Jan 2007 08:20:41 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>219 F on the controller -- Wows! from the wife and my part-timer, Wade
>>
>>customer are also reporting temps in the LOW 220s or high teens improve
>>results.
>>
>>Dave
>>www.hitechespresso.com
>
>The machines I got from you seem to produce 200F to 202F shots when
>set at 220F. Perhaps there's been small changes over the year to the
>boiler's top geometry, e.g. the tstat dimples, or the way the group
>attaches, since the upper 220s, which the original PIDers ran, seems
>too high for more recent machines.
>
>Btw, for my temp tests, I flushed the group head as I ground the shot
>to heat it up. By the time the pf was loaded, the temperature was
>back in range. Perhaps people running the higher temps do it
>differently? If they flush immediately ahead of the shot, the temp
>will drop a bit.

Jim -

My experience has been very different, but it may have to do with the
method of measuring brew temperatures.

I am using a Scace thermofilter to make brew temp readings. I
consistently see brew temperatures 200F, +/-2F, with a PID setpoint of
228F (the variation comes with different group temperatures). I have
measured this on several Silvia's, both new and old style boilers.

I have some confidence in the boiler temp readings because I am using
redundant sensors and instruments. And I have confidence in the t/c
readings from the thermofilter because they correlate well with group
sensor data.

How are you measuring brew temperatures? Are the 200-202F shot
temperatures you are reporting averages, or peaks?

Jim

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



   
Date: 10 Jan 2007 21:20:56
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:45:19 -0500, jggall01 <jggall01@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>How are you measuring brew temperatures? Are the 200-202F shot
>temperatures you are reporting averages, or peaks?

I've had a single basket with all but one of the holes blocked and a
K-type TC glued in; it works similarly to the Scace, allowing out
around 60mL in 30 seconds.

I'm not about twiddle my thumbs while the PID settles, I flush, then
brew when it's roughly right. Brew temp drops around 3F to 4F during
double shots, as on all stock Silvias.

If you don't flush before measuring, all thermometry comparisons are
off; you're running with a cold group; while I run with a hot one.


    
Date: 10 Jan 2007 23:15:09
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 21:20:56 -0600, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:45:19 -0500, jggall01 <jggall01@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>How are you measuring brew temperatures? Are the 200-202F shot
>>temperatures you are reporting averages, or peaks?
>
>I've had a single basket with all but one of the holes blocked and a
>K-type TC glued in; it works similarly to the Scace, allowing out
>around 60mL in 30 seconds.
>
>I'm not about twiddle my thumbs while the PID settles, I flush, then
>brew when it's roughly right. Brew temp drops around 3F to 4F during
>double shots, as on all stock Silvias.
>
>If you don't flush before measuring, all thermometry comparisons are
>off; you're running with a cold group; while I run with a hot one.

Thanks, Jim.

I suspect the immediate pull after flushing accounts for the
difference.

I do the flush well before pulling the shot. By the time I brew, both
the boiler and the group temps have re-stabilized. (No particular
reason, it's just what I do). Doing this usually results in a group
temp of 197F right before pulling the shot.

Jim

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



     
Date: 10 Jan 2007 23:03:23
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Taste tests on Silvia and lower Temp settings.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 23:15:09 -0500, jggall01 <jggall01@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>I do the flush well before pulling the shot. By the time I brew, both
>the boiler and the group temps have re-stabilized. (No particular
>reason, it's just what I do). Doing this usually results in a group
>temp of 197F right before pulling the shot.

I'm not criticizing anyone's PID setting or flush routine;especially
since my Sivia shots are not at the same standard as from my other
machines, so I probably have a lot to learn.

I'm just pointing out that there are probably differences in Silvias
over the years (minor details in the gorup or boiler). There are
certainly differences in how people mount the TC. Then there are
differences in when and how much people flush. So I'm not surprised
that people get good shots using PID settings anywhere from 210F to
230F.