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Date: 22 Sep 2007 21:02:46
From: opother
Subject: The three best home machines that I know of
Well the date is Sept 22, 2007 I hate sifting through yesteryears
posts

For the past few years I have always been an advocate for precise
temperature control as being extremely important in brewing espresso.
I learned this from reading David Shomer's articles as well as reading
Andy Shetzer's tips. After PIDing my Rancilio Sylvia I found it to be
true.

I belive the best temperature stability is achieved by use of a
boiler a dual boiler if you are to avoid long transition times between
steaming and brewing.

After reading through the reviews I have decided to bite the bullit
and upgrade again. I have recently ordered the Expobar Brewtus 2 at a
whopping ~$1700.00 but if you think that is high the La Mazzarco GS3
that I attempted to purchase is ~ $4500.00 it was the first time I
ever got a processor declined message when placing on order for
something that was listed as "soon to come" I don't know if it was
unavaiIable for backorder or it exceeded my limit of credit but I
can't find that machine in stock anywhere.

I have gleened this info from here and abroad.

The La Mazzarco GS3 to call this machine a Ferrari of coffee machines
would be an insult. There are many machines out there that just plain
look better than the GS3 however the GS3 is not flash it is pure blow
away all the others function. This machine is an automatic which
doesn't really thrill me but I can live with it. From what I
understand it is predominantly stainless steel including the group
head and double boiler, it has electronic temperature control (PID),
rotory pump, non-plumbed in (a big plus for me), the brew head is temp
stabilized as well, it is said to pull shot after shot after shot
without blinking an eye as far as temperature stability as well as
pulling a stable shots after a long idle periods. No preflushing
needed.
It seems this machine's price may actually go up. I have read rumors
that this thing which was intended for the home market makes such good
coffee that a commercial interest has now been generated. LM which is
a company that for the most part deals with commercial machines only,
seems to be very tightly limiting the amount of these machines being
sold. Steaming power is said to be kick ass by the way. Components
and parts are top notch.
From what I read this machine is the measure to be used to compare
all yes all others even their own commercial line. Can't find it so
thats the breaks. That along with my cheapness innervoice tempting me
I opted for a much lesser machine in all respects as well as price. A
lesser machine but an excellent machine as well. The Brewtus


The Expobar Brewtus dual boiler espresso machine has an electronic
non-PID temperature controller that is adjustable in 1 deg C
increments (about 1.8 deg F ?) Reviews suggest that despite the large
gaps between temp adjustments it produces much better espresso than
the other machines out there but it is not in the class of the LM GS3.
The expobar uses a lightweight E61 clone group head and the brew water
is fed into a 1.7 liter boiler via a heat exchanger. This is not a
traditional heat exchanger machine, the heat exchanger is only used to
preheat the water going into the brew boiler where the temp is
maintained. Expobar can produce multiple shots with good temp control
as well. It's steaming boiler is also 1.7 liters steaming pressure is
said to be slightly below that of sylvia however unlike silvia it is
constant. Components and parts are adequate but not top notch so it
seems.
If your steaming boiler gets cool however brewtus will automatically
switch off your brew boiler coils even in the middle of pulling a shot
(ie temp stability) . I do not anticipate this happening too much but
it's a quirk to be aware of. Despite some occaisional malfunctions
that is by no means exclusive to Expobar machines. I belive this
machine is a great buy.

The La Spaziale VII is another great machine it is the only one out
of these three that is officially certified as a commercial machine.
It has the same 1 deg Cel temp adjustments as the Expobar, no E61
group head or clone, but apparently it does just fine without one. The
VII unlike the other two machines which use standard 58mm portafilters
uses a non-standard 53mm portafilter which is heaver and despite being
53mm better suited for trouble free brewing. brew boiler is smaller
(0.45L) than steaming boiler (2.5L). This ,unlike the Expobar which
has a vibratory pump, uses a rotary pump and has to be plumbed in.
Components and parts are probably better quality than the brewtus.
This machine also pulls back to back shots while maintaining a stable
temp. Steaming is probably better also. I would say between this and
expobar they each have their advantages and drawbacks.

The VII is big the Expobar isn't, I do not want to drill a hole in my
countertop to accommadate the VII pump and I don't want to plumb in.
Hard water will require a filter be installed. If I wasn't renting it
might be feasable. Rotary pumps are quieter and do produce a more even
pressure. Having a plumbed in machine once done takes the hastle out
of refilling a resiviour .but I still don't want to go that route.
I can transfer all my standard 58 mm rancilio silvia parts to
Expobar, with the VII I have to start over. VII is $1999 let just say
$2000 if you have the space, want to plumb in and install a rotary
under the counter top go for it.

All the above machines have steam boiler and grouphead pressure
guages ("dual manometer") as well as adjustable pressure.


As for tradional heat exchangers well nice if you master the temp
swings they produce and pull your shot at just the right second. Dual
boilers rock I think even the GRRRREEEAAAT almighty #enneth #ox can
now finally admit it's true.

The is a new member in this group who sells advocates PID control and
sells PID rigs if you can see beyond his latest screen name of the
week you might find him. I respect and admire his contribution to the
advancement of espresso equipment and he has also PIDed heat
exchangers I don't know how well that works and I must admit that I am
curious, however he can be a bit of a shill at times advertising on
this news group is a no no but I think he really does have a
condition, I am convinced that in his mind he sees nothing wrong with
what he is doing. I think capitalism has made this poor person sick in
this respect I think a kind reminder to not advertise whenever he does
is in order. He has been mistaken from time to time but so have I. I
have been backflushing my Silvia ever since I bought it and I have no
problems. That said he is in fact a technologicaly knowledgable person.





 
Date: 24 Sep 2007 12:58:37
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 24, 1:18 am, Marshall <mrf...@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:19:20 -0400, "Tom" <tjwit...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> >$2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is basically
> >made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in stroking each
> >other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the common folk who enjoy
> >coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a machine?
>
> This is a coffee enthusiasts group. Enthusiasts always spend
> disproportionate money on their hobby.
>
> Why don't you go insult some audiophile group for not appreciating the
> value of a $500 "home theater in a box?"
>
> Marshall

Ooooh, you nailed that Marshall! -- coffee mania pales in comparison
to audio/video/hometheater!

$50,000 for a pair of speakers?

and BTW, TOM, an excellent espresso setup can be done for UNDER
$1,000.00
'pid'silvia and Gaggia MDF grinder.

!!!

dave

www.hitechespresso.com



 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 23:25:44
From: Paul Pratt
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 23, 12:02 pm, opother <opother...@earthlink.net > wrote:

the La Mazzarco GS3
> that I attempted to purchase is ~ $4500.00

> It seems this machine's price may actually go up.

I think $6000 is closer to the mark.




 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 21:03:16
From: opother
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 23, 10:19 pm, "Tom" <tjwit...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> $2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is basically
> made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in stroking each
> other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the common folk who enjoy
> coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a machine?
>
> "lockjaw" <davebo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190552185.974308.220500@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > ******************************
>
> > Silvia w/ 'pid' -- best temperature control in a single boiler
> > machine, period.
>
> > Brewtus II -- markedly inferior build quality, (e.g.: pressurestat
> > switching full load rather than through an SSR) and components to the
> > La Spaz S1 for about $200.00 less than the Laspaz. (readily available
> > for $1,900 shipped) -- and I do not get why both machines are still
> > displaying in C not F. But if you want chrome, e61, etc. BII is
> > about it.
>
> > GS3 - over 2 years later, still NOT available, UGLY, (IMHO) and
> > overpriced.
>
> > over 60 HAPPY 'pid' HX owners out there, in US and Canada references
> > provided.
>
> > Products shortly will be provided with results not from a handheld
> > thermometer, but my WAY cool HP / Agilent 34970A DAQ
>
> > regards
> > Dave
>
> > 910 616 0980
> >www.hitechespresso.com
>
> > P.S. I liked to mention backflushing / no backflushing mainly to yank
> > the beard of 'ol RandyG. (but it really, really did blow MY boiler
> > seal) I am happy THAT has not happened with others. and BTW since it
> > is so difficult to clean e61 heads and so easy to do a good job on
> > silvia / gaggia . . . oh nevermind. :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

By the way I have great respect for the common man



 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 20:57:14
From: opother
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 23, 10:19 pm, "Tom" <tjwit...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> $2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is basically
> made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in stroking each
> other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the common folk who enjoy
> coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a machine?
>
> "lockjaw" <davebo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1190552185.974308.220500@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > ******************************
>
> > Silvia w/ 'pid' -- best temperature control in a single boiler
> > machine, period.
>
> > Brewtus II -- markedly inferior build quality, (e.g.: pressurestat
> > switching full load rather than through an SSR) and components to the
> > La Spaz S1 for about $200.00 less than the Laspaz. (readily available
> > for $1,900 shipped) -- and I do not get why both machines are still
> > displaying in C not F. But if you want chrome, e61, etc. BII is
> > about it.
>
> > GS3 - over 2 years later, still NOT available, UGLY, (IMHO) and
> > overpriced.
>
> > over 60 HAPPY 'pid' HX owners out there, in US and Canada references
> > provided.
>
> > Products shortly will be provided with results not from a handheld
> > thermometer, but my WAY cool HP / Agilent 34970A DAQ
>
> > regards
> > Dave
>
> > 910 616 0980
> >www.hitechespresso.com
>
> > P.S. I liked to mention backflushing / no backflushing mainly to yank
> > the beard of 'ol RandyG. (but it really, really did blow MY boiler
> > seal) I am happy THAT has not happened with others. and BTW since it
> > is so difficult to clean e61 heads and so easy to do a good job on
> > silvia / gaggia . . . oh nevermind. :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -




LOL Tom I am sorry for sounding that way but yes you can make decent
and even top notch espresso using using a simple $200.00 machine like
a Gaggia Carrezza but you still will have to pay about $200.00 to
$500.00 dollars for a suitable grinder unfortunately, and you must
know, especially in the lower price range, what you want and how to
choose the right grinder. Your looking at a total of about $500.00 to
$700.00 dollars altogether. I hope that is not too much. Hint shop for
the grinder first. With with a cheaper machine you have to get
familiar with it's temp swings and pulling your shots at just the
right time (temp surfing) during a boiler heat cycle.

Forget about hosting parties or large gatherings because you will not
be able to pull back to back shots in any practical manner you are
limited by the small boiler and it's temp swings and recovery time
after each shot. That is just for espresso if you are making
cappucinos with a singe boiler machine you will have to flush water
through (refill) the boiler to cool it back down as well as to
preserve your heat coils and then wait for it to go back up to brew
temp every time after you steam milk.

The above may be suitable for one or two people in small quantities
but thats it. Using different coffees will require figuring out the
right times to hit the brew switch for each different type of coffee.
You can live with this if you stick to a few types of coffee but if
you want to try many different kinds life can become hard for you (can
you say trial and error.)

The more expensive machines make life much easier and have better
temp stability and as such are a lot more forgiving when brewing
shots. They also make dealing with many different varieties of coffee,
most of which have their own optimum brewing temps much easier, one
coffees optimum brewing temp can produce total bitter/sour swill using
another type of coffee, I am not kidding, results are also repeatable
and predictable. Being able to set a tightly controlled temperature to
your requirements for your coffee by just turning a dial is so much
easier and less prone to failure (bitter/sour undrinkable) than temp
surfing. These machines also have no problems pulling multiple shots
and steaming milk all back to back if you need to serve a lot of
people.

That said a cheap machine can be mastered to pull great shots despite
it's hassles and limitations.

You are right $2000.00 is expensive and when I first started
experimenting with espresso I never dreamed I would be buying this
kind of equipment but as time went by it became inevitable.

Oh did I mention skimping instead of getting a quality grinder is not
an option for espresso preparation whether you have a costly espresso
machine or a less expensive one you will wind up pulling swill
regardless with a cheapo grinder.

I hope this helps



 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 12:35:46
From: opother
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 23, 3:30 pm, opother <opother...@earthlink.net > wrote:
> On Sep 23, 3:12 pm, "Ed Needham" <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The point of my post was that he was likely Googling the wrong name, since
> > he spelled it Mazzarco at least twice in his post. When I Googled La
> > Marzocco GS3 and 966 hits, without wasting more time, I figured there would
> > be at least a few of those hits hawking the machine. Maybe I was wrong. I
> > have heard that Google in Indiana works better than Google everywhere else
> > though.
>
> > --
> > *********************
> > Ed Needham
> > "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com
> > *********************
>
> > "Moka Java" <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:5lnmv3F96jukU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> > > Ed Needham wrote:
> > >> I'll say two things...
> > >> One- Try Googling "La Marzocco GS3" instead of La Mazzarco. You will
> > >> find it available in a number of places.
>
> > > I did but didn't. Is your google better n'mine?
>
> > > R "jealous" TF- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Nope I googled under the right name just messed it up in this post
> only, I got multiple hits lots of sites but nobody selling so it is
> true the machine is very hard to find. Besides google has a nice
> little correction feature that brings up suggested spellings for
> mispelled words or when you get no hits. I make mistakes in spelling
> from time to time however I quite I am quite sure you get it, and my
> point to you is crystall clear Mr Needham.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"I quite I am quite sure"

It seems that when I type replies somtimes what I type dissapears and
reappears on another part of the paragraph does anyone else experience
this type of bug on the computer (not really wanting to dwell on this
but just curious)




  
Date: 23 Sep 2007 12:57:56
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:35:46 -0700, opother <opother123@earthlink.net >
wrote:

>On Sep 23, 3:30 pm, opother <opother...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Sep 23, 3:12 pm, "Ed Needham" <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > The point of my post was that he was likely Googling the wrong name, since
>> > he spelled it Mazzarco at least twice in his post. When I Googled La
>> > Marzocco GS3 and 966 hits, without wasting more time, I figured there would
>> > be at least a few of those hits hawking the machine. Maybe I was wrong. I
>> > have heard that Google in Indiana works better than Google everywhere else
>> > though.
>>
>> > --
>> > *********************
>> > Ed Needham
>> > "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com
>> > *********************
>>
>> > "Moka Java" <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >news:5lnmv3F96jukU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> > > Ed Needham wrote:
>> > >> I'll say two things...
>> > >> One- Try Googling "La Marzocco GS3" instead of La Mazzarco. You will
>> > >> find it available in a number of places.
>>
>> > > I did but didn't. Is your google better n'mine?
>>
>> > > R "jealous" TF- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Nope I googled under the right name just messed it up in this post
>> only, I got multiple hits lots of sites but nobody selling so it is
>> true the machine is very hard to find. Besides google has a nice
>> little correction feature that brings up suggested spellings for
>> mispelled words or when you get no hits. I make mistakes in spelling
>> from time to time however I quite I am quite sure you get it, and my
>> point to you is crystall clear Mr Needham.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>"I quite I am quite sure"
>
> It seems that when I type replies somtimes what I type dissapears and
>reappears on another part of the paragraph does anyone else experience
>this type of bug on the computer (not really wanting to dwell on this
>but just curious)

I don't know what newsreader you are using, if any, but your post
threaded to a 4-year old thread on Vietnamese coffee on my computer (I
use Forte). This has never happened before.

Marshall


   
Date: 23 Sep 2007 20:06:10
From: Steve
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:57:56 -0700, Marshall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>>"I quite I am quite sure"
>>
>> It seems that when I type replies somtimes what I type dissapears and
>>reappears on another part of the paragraph does anyone else experience
>>this type of bug on the computer (not really wanting to dwell on this
>>but just curious)
>
>I don't know what newsreader you are using, if any, but your post
>threaded to a 4-year old thread on Vietnamese coffee on my computer (I
>use Forte). This has never happened before.

It may be a Google error; he's using an old version of Mozilla on
Google Groups.
The disapearing/reappearing text may be a result of his overtype
settings in Mozilla.


    
Date: 23 Sep 2007 17:13:39
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
In <lihdf39h7oe6p7ml7apfpba405vubo6dle@news.easynews.com >, on Sun, 23
Sep 2007 20:06:10 GMT, Steve, null@privacy.net wrote:

> It may be a Google error;

I imagine that's likely.

> he's using an old version of Mozilla on Google Groups.

From his headers:
X-HTTP-UserAgent: ... MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1





     
Date: 23 Sep 2007 21:34:01
From: Steve
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:13:39 -0400, Steve Ackman
<steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com > wrote:

>From his headers:
>X-HTTP-UserAgent: ... MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1

I missed that, Steve.


 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 12:30:03
From: opother
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 23, 3:12 pm, "Ed Needham" <e...@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote:
> The point of my post was that he was likely Googling the wrong name, since
> he spelled it Mazzarco at least twice in his post. When I Googled La
> Marzocco GS3 and 966 hits, without wasting more time, I figured there would
> be at least a few of those hits hawking the machine. Maybe I was wrong. I
> have heard that Google in Indiana works better than Google everywhere else
> though.
>
> --
> *********************
> Ed Needham
> "to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com
> *********************
>
> "Moka Java" <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5lnmv3F96jukU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
> > Ed Needham wrote:
> >> I'll say two things...
> >> One- Try Googling "La Marzocco GS3" instead of La Mazzarco. You will
> >> find it available in a number of places.
>
> > I did but didn't. Is your google better n'mine?
>
> > R "jealous" TF- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nope I googled under the right name just messed it up in this post
only, I got multiple hits lots of sites but nobody selling so it is
true the machine is very hard to find. Besides google has a nice
little correction feature that brings up suggested spellings for
mispelled words or when you get no hits. I make mistakes in spelling
from time to time however I quite I am quite sure you get it, and my
point to you is crystall clear Mr Needham.



 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 10:24:27
From: opother
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sep 23, 8:56 am, lockjaw <davebo...@gmail.com > wrote:
> ******************************
>
> Silvia w/ 'pid' -- best temperature control in a single boiler
> machine, period.
>
> Brewtus II -- markedly inferior build quality, (e.g.: pressurestat
> switching full load rather than through an SSR) and components to the
> La Spaz S1 for about $200.00 less than the Laspaz. (readily available
> for $1,900 shipped) -- and I do not get why both machines are still
> displaying in C not F. But if you want chrome, e61, etc. BII is
> about it.
>
> GS3 - over 2 years later, still NOT available, UGLY, (IMHO) and
> overpriced.
>
> over 60 HAPPY 'pid' HX owners out there, in US and Canada references
> provided.
>
> Products shortly will be provided with results not from a handheld
> thermometer, but my WAY cool HP / Agilent 34970A DAQ
>
> regards
> Dave
>
> 910 616 0980www.hitechespresso.com
>
> P.S. I liked to mention backflushing / no backflushing mainly to yank
> the beard of 'ol RandyG. (but it really, really did blow MY boiler
> seal) I am happy THAT has not happened with others. and BTW since it
> is so difficult to clean e61 heads and so easy to do a good job on
> silvia / gaggia . . . oh nevermind. :-)





The LM GS3 is by no means ugly, compared to the other flashy polished
stainless machines out there in comparison it looks a little plain but
it is nowhere near ugly in fact it is a nice looking little machine.
Ugly is your opinion. It is not built like an overpriced finicky,
picky, quirky, flashy sports car, but is more of a down to earth,
super reliable, irreplaceable machine that would denfinately be missed
once you get used to it, from what I read. A link to some pics.
http://godshot.blogspot.com/2005_11_13_archive.html

The price of the LM GS3 I am not going to quibble about it This
machine uses a lot of unique top quality parts (ie stainless steel
everything, boiler, grouphead, etc.., and others) for the purpose of
function and fuction well it does, well enough to blow any other
machines well out of the way, even their own commercial line at
simular prices. No I do not think it is overpriced but rather the best
and that is what you pay for. The avantages of being rich, a rich
man's toy only ? I would hope not, but it is expensive.($4500.00 or
more ???) I don't know who sells them and I already ordered my Brewtus
which is not a horrible machine at all by the way.

If all these things I read about the GS3 is true, and I belive it is,
I would recommend anyone who wants one to get it if they can.


Why don't you see if LM would let you sell them, other people would
buy it.





  
Date: 23 Sep 2007 11:40:12
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 10:24:27 -0700, opother <opother123@earthlink.net >
wrote:

>On Sep 23, 8:56 am, lockjaw <davebo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ******************************
>>
>> Silvia w/ 'pid' -- best temperature control in a single boiler
>> machine, period.
>>
>> Brewtus II -- markedly inferior build quality, (e.g.: pressurestat
>> switching full load rather than through an SSR) and components to the
>> La Spaz S1 for about $200.00 less than the Laspaz. (readily available
>> for $1,900 shipped) -- and I do not get why both machines are still
>> displaying in C not F. But if you want chrome, e61, etc. BII is
>> about it.
>>
>> GS3 - over 2 years later, still NOT available, UGLY, (IMHO) and
>> overpriced.
>>
>> over 60 HAPPY 'pid' HX owners out there, in US and Canada references
>> provided.
>>
>> Products shortly will be provided with results not from a handheld
>> thermometer, but my WAY cool HP / Agilent 34970A DAQ
>>
>> regards
>> Dave
>>
>> 910 616 0980www.hitechespresso.com
>>
>> P.S. I liked to mention backflushing / no backflushing mainly to yank
>> the beard of 'ol RandyG. (but it really, really did blow MY boiler
>> seal) I am happy THAT has not happened with others. and BTW since it
>> is so difficult to clean e61 heads and so easy to do a good job on
>> silvia / gaggia . . . oh nevermind. :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> The LM GS3 is by no means ugly, compared to the other flashy polished
>stainless machines out there in comparison it looks a little plain but
>it is nowhere near ugly in fact it is a nice looking little machine.
>Ugly is your opinion. It is not built like an overpriced finicky,
>picky, quirky, flashy sports car, but is more of a down to earth,
>super reliable, irreplaceable machine that would denfinately be missed
>once you get used to it, from what I read. A link to some pics.
>http://godshot.blogspot.com/2005_11_13_archive.html
>
> The price of the LM GS3 I am not going to quibble about it This
>machine uses a lot of unique top quality parts (ie stainless steel
>everything, boiler, grouphead, etc.., and others) for the purpose of
>function and fuction well it does, well enough to blow any other
>machines well out of the way, even their own commercial line at
>simular prices. No I do not think it is overpriced but rather the best
>and that is what you pay for. The avantages of being rich, a rich
>man's toy only ? I would hope not, but it is expensive.($4500.00 or
>more ???) I don't know who sells them and I already ordered my Brewtus
>which is not a horrible machine at all by the way.
>
> If all these things I read about the GS3 is true, and I belive it is,
>I would recommend anyone who wants one to get it if they can.
>
>
> Why don't you see if LM would let you sell them, other people would
>buy it.
>
>
La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/la-marzocco-gs3-disappointment-t4549.html?highlight=gs3

Many think it ugly.

It's raison d'etre may be based on false premises.

Taste unconvincing.


 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 12:56:25
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
******************************

Silvia w/ 'pid' -- best temperature control in a single boiler
machine, period.

Brewtus II -- markedly inferior build quality, (e.g.: pressurestat
switching full load rather than through an SSR) and components to the
La Spaz S1 for about $200.00 less than the Laspaz. (readily available
for $1,900 shipped) -- and I do not get why both machines are still
displaying in C not F. But if you want chrome, e61, etc. BII is
about it.

GS3 - over 2 years later, still NOT available, UGLY, (IMHO) and
overpriced.

over 60 HAPPY 'pid' HX owners out there, in US and Canada references
provided.

Products shortly will be provided with results not from a handheld
thermometer, but my WAY cool HP / Agilent 34970A DAQ


regards
Dave

910 616 0980
www.hitechespresso.com

P.S. I liked to mention backflushing / no backflushing mainly to yank
the beard of 'ol RandyG. (but it really, really did blow MY boiler
seal) I am happy THAT has not happened with others. and BTW since it
is so difficult to clean e61 heads and so easy to do a good job on
silvia / gaggia . . . oh nevermind. :-)




  
Date: 23 Sep 2007 22:19:20
From: Tom
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
$2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is basically
made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in stroking each
other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the common folk who enjoy
coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a machine?


"lockjaw" <davebobbl@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1190552185.974308.220500@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> ******************************
>
> Silvia w/ 'pid' -- best temperature control in a single boiler
> machine, period.
>
> Brewtus II -- markedly inferior build quality, (e.g.: pressurestat
> switching full load rather than through an SSR) and components to the
> La Spaz S1 for about $200.00 less than the Laspaz. (readily available
> for $1,900 shipped) -- and I do not get why both machines are still
> displaying in C not F. But if you want chrome, e61, etc. BII is
> about it.
>
> GS3 - over 2 years later, still NOT available, UGLY, (IMHO) and
> overpriced.
>
> over 60 HAPPY 'pid' HX owners out there, in US and Canada references
> provided.
>
> Products shortly will be provided with results not from a handheld
> thermometer, but my WAY cool HP / Agilent 34970A DAQ
>
>
> regards
> Dave
>
> 910 616 0980
> www.hitechespresso.com
>
> P.S. I liked to mention backflushing / no backflushing mainly to yank
> the beard of 'ol RandyG. (but it really, really did blow MY boiler
> seal) I am happy THAT has not happened with others. and BTW since it
> is so difficult to clean e61 heads and so easy to do a good job on
> silvia / gaggia . . . oh nevermind. :-)
>
>




   
Date: 23 Sep 2007 22:18:02
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:19:20 -0400, "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net >
wrote:

>$2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is basically
>made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in stroking each
>other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the common folk who enjoy
>coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a machine?
>
This is a coffee enthusiasts group. Enthusiasts always spend
disproportionate money on their hobby.

Why don't you go insult some audiophile group for not appreciating the
value of a $500 "home theater in a box?"

Marshall


    
Date: 24 Sep 2007 08:14:01
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
Marshall wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:19:20 -0400, "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>> $2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is basically
>> made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in stroking each
>> other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the common folk who enjoy
>> coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a machine?
>>
> This is a coffee enthusiasts group. Enthusiasts always spend
> disproportionate money on their hobby.
>
> Why don't you go insult some audiophile group for not appreciating the
> value of a $500 "home theater in a box?"
>
> Marshall

Of course we could use the economic model to justify our obsession. I
like cappuccinos. A cappuccino at the local cafe is $4 (and not as good
as what I make at home). I drink 2 or more cappuccinos a day. Using
high quality coffee and organic milk a cappuccino costs me ~ .70 to make
at home with a net savings of $3.30 per drink or at least $6.60 per day.
A $2000 espresso setup pays for itself in less than 10 months.

But back closer to topic, the last I heard, and I think it was from you,
was that LM had pretty much given up trying to go through the hoops
necessary to get the GS3 approved for consumer use in the US. Has
anything changed.

R "will probably PID the HX until something does" TF


   
Date: 23 Sep 2007 22:29:13
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
There are way cheaper ways to get a decent machine in your house, but none
that are straightforward. The machines that make cafe quality espresso are
not cheap, but if you're industrious and half way decent with tools and
machinery, you can snag a good deal a number of ways, including sales within
coffee groups on the net, Ebay (if you're a risk taker) and occasional
restaurant auctions where they might have a nice single group machine in
the sale. $$$ or skill or patience. Take your pick, but don't expect
consistently great espresso from a cheap machine.

I don't think there is a cheap espresso group for the common folk or anyone
else for that matter. Good luck with that.
(Wait till he hears about the $600 grinder he needs!)
--
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
*********************


"Tom" wrote in message
news:w8FJi.119137$pu2.31653@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> $2000 for a 'home machine'????? This points out why this group is
> basically made up of a small group of extremists who take pleasure in
> stroking each other's ego. Is there a coffee/espresso group for the
> common folk who enjoy coffee but not taking out a second mortgage to buy a
> machine?




 
Date: 23 Sep 2007 00:25:52
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
I'll say two things...
One- Try Googling "La Marzocco GS3" instead of La Mazzarco. You will find
it available in a number of places.
Two- A heat exchanger machine is a single boiler design and there is not a
long transition time between steaming and brewing espresso.

I have a heat exchanger machine La Pavoni PUBS, and it is overkill for home
use (is that possible?) but produces wonderful espresso and all the steam
you would ever want--simultaneously if you desire.

If I leave it on for a long period of time, the water in the heat exchanger
will get hotter than I want for good espresso, but a quick 10-15 second
flush (which I tend to do anyway to assure that things in the brewing path
are at their peak cleanliness and stable temperatures) brings the water
temperature into the range needed to make great espresso. It's never been a
problem.

--
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
*********************


"opother" <opother123@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:1190520166.865508.306510@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Well the date is Sept 22, 2007 I hate sifting through yesteryears
> posts
>
> For the past few years I have always been an advocate for precise
> temperature control as being extremely important in brewing espresso.
> I learned this from reading David Shomer's articles as well as reading
> Andy Shetzer's tips. After PIDing my Rancilio Sylvia I found it to be
> true.
>
> I belive the best temperature stability is achieved by use of a
> boiler a dual boiler if you are to avoid long transition times between
> steaming and brewing.
>
> After reading through the reviews I have decided to bite the bullit
> and upgrade again. I have recently ordered the Expobar Brewtus 2 at a
> whopping ~$1700.00 but if you think that is high the La Mazzarco GS3
> that I attempted to purchase is ~ $4500.00 it was the first time I
> ever got a processor declined message when placing on order for
> something that was listed as "soon to come" I don't know if it was
> unavaiIable for backorder or it exceeded my limit of credit but I
> can't find that machine in stock anywhere.
>
> I have gleened this info from here and abroad.
>
> The La Mazzarco GS3 to call this machine a Ferrari of coffee machines
> would be an insult. There are many machines out there that just plain
> look better than the GS3 however the GS3 is not flash it is pure blow
> away all the others function. This machine is an automatic which
> doesn't really thrill me but I can live with it. From what I
> understand it is predominantly stainless steel including the group
> head and double boiler, it has electronic temperature control (PID),
> rotory pump, non-plumbed in (a big plus for me), the brew head is temp
> stabilized as well, it is said to pull shot after shot after shot
> without blinking an eye as far as temperature stability as well as
> pulling a stable shots after a long idle periods. No preflushing
> needed.
> It seems this machine's price may actually go up. I have read rumors
> that this thing which was intended for the home market makes such good
> coffee that a commercial interest has now been generated. LM which is
> a company that for the most part deals with commercial machines only,
> seems to be very tightly limiting the amount of these machines being
> sold. Steaming power is said to be kick ass by the way. Components
> and parts are top notch.
> From what I read this machine is the measure to be used to compare
> all yes all others even their own commercial line. Can't find it so
> thats the breaks. That along with my cheapness innervoice tempting me
> I opted for a much lesser machine in all respects as well as price. A
> lesser machine but an excellent machine as well. The Brewtus
>
>
> The Expobar Brewtus dual boiler espresso machine has an electronic
> non-PID temperature controller that is adjustable in 1 deg C
> increments (about 1.8 deg F ?) Reviews suggest that despite the large
> gaps between temp adjustments it produces much better espresso than
> the other machines out there but it is not in the class of the LM GS3.
> The expobar uses a lightweight E61 clone group head and the brew water
> is fed into a 1.7 liter boiler via a heat exchanger. This is not a
> traditional heat exchanger machine, the heat exchanger is only used to
> preheat the water going into the brew boiler where the temp is
> maintained. Expobar can produce multiple shots with good temp control
> as well. It's steaming boiler is also 1.7 liters steaming pressure is
> said to be slightly below that of sylvia however unlike silvia it is
> constant. Components and parts are adequate but not top notch so it
> seems.
> If your steaming boiler gets cool however brewtus will automatically
> switch off your brew boiler coils even in the middle of pulling a shot
> (ie temp stability) . I do not anticipate this happening too much but
> it's a quirk to be aware of. Despite some occaisional malfunctions
> that is by no means exclusive to Expobar machines. I belive this
> machine is a great buy.
>
> The La Spaziale VII is another great machine it is the only one out
> of these three that is officially certified as a commercial machine.
> It has the same 1 deg Cel temp adjustments as the Expobar, no E61
> group head or clone, but apparently it does just fine without one. The
> VII unlike the other two machines which use standard 58mm portafilters
> uses a non-standard 53mm portafilter which is heaver and despite being
> 53mm better suited for trouble free brewing. brew boiler is smaller
> (0.45L) than steaming boiler (2.5L). This ,unlike the Expobar which
> has a vibratory pump, uses a rotary pump and has to be plumbed in.
> Components and parts are probably better quality than the brewtus.
> This machine also pulls back to back shots while maintaining a stable
> temp. Steaming is probably better also. I would say between this and
> expobar they each have their advantages and drawbacks.
>
> The VII is big the Expobar isn't, I do not want to drill a hole in my
> countertop to accommadate the VII pump and I don't want to plumb in.
> Hard water will require a filter be installed. If I wasn't renting it
> might be feasable. Rotary pumps are quieter and do produce a more even
> pressure. Having a plumbed in machine once done takes the hastle out
> of refilling a resiviour .but I still don't want to go that route.
> I can transfer all my standard 58 mm rancilio silvia parts to
> Expobar, with the VII I have to start over. VII is $1999 let just say
> $2000 if you have the space, want to plumb in and install a rotary
> under the counter top go for it.
>
> All the above machines have steam boiler and grouphead pressure
> guages ("dual manometer") as well as adjustable pressure.
>
>
> As for tradional heat exchangers well nice if you master the temp
> swings they produce and pull your shot at just the right second. Dual
> boilers rock I think even the GRRRREEEAAAT almighty #enneth #ox can
> now finally admit it's true.
>
> The is a new member in this group who sells advocates PID control and
> sells PID rigs if you can see beyond his latest screen name of the
> week you might find him. I respect and admire his contribution to the
> advancement of espresso equipment and he has also PIDed heat
> exchangers I don't know how well that works and I must admit that I am
> curious, however he can be a bit of a shill at times advertising on
> this news group is a no no but I think he really does have a
> condition, I am convinced that in his mind he sees nothing wrong with
> what he is doing. I think capitalism has made this poor person sick in
> this respect I think a kind reminder to not advertise whenever he does
> is in order. He has been mistaken from time to time but so have I. I
> have been backflushing my Silvia ever since I bought it and I have no
> problems. That said he is in fact a technologicaly knowledgable person.
>




  
Date: 23 Sep 2007 13:46:02
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
Ed Needham wrote:
> I'll say two things...
> One- Try Googling "La Marzocco GS3" instead of La Mazzarco. You will find
> it available in a number of places.

I did but didn't. Is your google better n'mine?

R "jealous" TF


   
Date: 23 Sep 2007 15:12:43
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: The three best home machines that I know of
The point of my post was that he was likely Googling the wrong name, since
he spelled it Mazzarco at least twice in his post. When I Googled La
Marzocco GS3 and 966 hits, without wasting more time, I figured there would
be at least a few of those hits hawking the machine. Maybe I was wrong. I
have heard that Google in Indiana works better than Google everywhere else
though.

--
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
*********************

"Moka Java" <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5lnmv3F96jukU1@mid.individual.net...
> Ed Needham wrote:
>> I'll say two things...
>> One- Try Googling "La Marzocco GS3" instead of La Mazzarco. You will
>> find it available in a number of places.
>
> I did but didn't. Is your google better n'mine?
>
> R "jealous" TF