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Date: 15 Apr 2007 11:05:06
From: Danny
Subject: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
I have a new member of the team - Tracy, and whilst she has been
getting to grips with life in the trailer, learning the easier tasks,
I have been introducing her to espresso, from the ground up, so I've
been demonstrating the "rules of espresso". Sounds great, but part of
my demonstration involves showing why a fault in any of the steps can
result in a bad shot.

She now knows what a good shot looks like (volume, crema, time etc)
but every time I try to demonstrate why each variable is important, by
changing it, we still get a good looking shot! (Not that it would
taste good)....

I attempted to show what happens when the grind is out, by adjusting
the Cimbali Cadet to a much coarser grind and pulling a shot or two,
but we got a (slightly faster) perfect looking shot, with loads of
crema, even after quite a few adjustments (from 2-10 on the
adjustment) ... so that failed.

We then ground some coffee and left it in a paper cup on top of the
fridge (warm place) for the whole day, remembered it at 5pm and I
confidently loaded the pf with it to show the effects of staling.
Failed. The shot still looked fine - slightly faster, but with crema!!

I then showed that dosing was important, which was about the only
thing that actually appeared to matter much. Chronic under-dosing
results in a terrible looking shot at last, and slight overdosing
results in a very slow shot...so some success.

So whilst trying to impress the importance of each variable that we
can affect, I've singularly failed to demonstrate any of it!


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)





 
Date: 28 Apr 2007 11:11:13
From: mocha
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On 27 Nisan, 05:18, "Bill (Adopt)" <a...@billsimpson.com > wrote:
> In article <59c7rsF2kj9b...@mid.individual.net>,
> Moka Java <rtwatc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Bill (Adopt) wrote:
> > > In article <46306d30.55912668@localhost>,
> > > D. Ross <r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu> wrote:
> > >>Volume is a different matter - we are discussing taste and color.
> [..]
> > > ..which is why I hesitantly suggested that volume,
> > > if not precisely the same thing, may nevertheless
> > > be heading along the same line.
> [..]
> > Try this experiment: Get 3 shot glasses. Dose and tamp a double shot
> > in your usual way. Pull the first 10 seconds of the shot into one
> > glass, the second 10 seconds into another and a the last 10 seconds into
> > the third glass. Then taste the difference.
>
> Wot! Agin..?!
>
> You really trust my pensioner palete, after decades of
> abuse..?
>
> ..mmm... ooooo-kay..
>
> <pitter patter>....
> later
> ....<patter pitter>
>
> Right..
>
> Machine: Gaggia Coffee, c.2006, de-loused, scaled,
> home-scrubbed, spit and polished 5 days
> ago.
>
> Grinder: Cunill CT-1 in reasonably excellent nick.
>
> Beans: Tesco "Original" blend; first opened around
> 6/7 days ago - frozen on opening and ground
> frozen for no other reason than they don't
> seem to mind being kept tightly wrapped in
> the -20C cool and dark.
>
> Basket: Gaggia double.
>
> Puck: 14gm, light tamp, slightly convex polished
> stainless steel "Whitards" 57.5mm(ish) tamper.
>
> Glass: Three; Polish clear 1oz measure (1819 Imp),
> pre-heated to same temperature with heated
> water from equalising Gaggia pf and group.
>
> S1; 1-10 secs:
>
> Look: Singular dark syruppy unbroken
> mouse-tail from left spout only.
> Thin and dissipating crema.
>
> Flavour: Clear flavour, not in the least
> bitter; a strong floral-honey woodland
> over-note, complemented by a gentle
> citrus underbody. (A bit unexpected
> this early in the shot).
>
> S2; c.10-20 secs:
>
> Look: Continuing unbroken mouse-tail from
> first spout, broken mouse-tail from
> 2nd spout. Solid and well-coloured
> 'mahogany' crema, a dark if now more
> liquid syrup.
>
> Flavour: Not as clear or with the same notes
> as S1, but with a slightly 'sweeter',
> perhaps mellower, combined if vague
> tone. The early floral overnote with
> citrus underbody almost not drectly
> evident.
>
> S3; c.10-20 secs:
>
> Look: Both spouts lightening considerably
> throughout end of shot. Both mouse
> -tails foamy. A tan hint to the liquor,
> although (unexpectedly) the crema
> solid, unbroken and still 'inviting',
> and only slightly 'lighter' in overall
> colour cf. S2, if at all...
>
> Flavour: Noticeably weaker than S1 and S2,
> almost consistent with a filter
> coffee, but without the complex
> flavours associated with such.
>
> Thin, watery and slightly 'unclean'
> on the palate; a lot of the earlier
> mellowness and various notes now lost.
> For this tasting, decidedly not a sip
> to be supped by itself!
>
> I wonder if S3 is why the Gaggia Barista Trainers in GB
> have tended to advise a 20 second draw rather than the 25
> second of a.c., or the 30 second of the above quick test.
>
> Interesting one-off experiment, using beans and equipment
> exactly as in direct use today; no frills, no extras.. :))
>
> [..]
>
> > > Perhaps a bottomless pf may be a better choice for us
> > > all, removing most of the introduced variables of colour,
> > > taste, consistency and, if drastically, twin 'volumes'.. ;))
> > The bottomless pf has gone a long way in improving the quality and
> > consistency of my espresso.
>
> Useful to hear... :))
>
> <aside>
> Trouble is, after an earlier discussion in a.c., I had a
> very nice email from 'Helen', who I think supplies Danny
> with many of his goodies, asking for my contact details
> so she could organise a regional contact ..but nothing
> from then on, despite my polite attempts to reach her.
>
> > R "haven't had an uneven pour in years" TF
>
> :))
>
> Bill ZFC
>
> --
> Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
> Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/

Thanks for the interesting info. I would like to add following to this
thread:

1. Gaggia home models can't provide ideal brew conditions for the
phase S3 due to cooling by fresh water entering the small boiler. That
was proven in this forum by the poster Sparky (who is posting now in
CoffeeSnobs).

2. Myself added a second boiler to a Gaggia home maschine for
preheating the brew water to around 85 C with amzing improvement of
the shot quality (in S-3 sequence).

3. Gaggia's brew water supply to grounds lacks symmetry with respect
to the vertical plane linking the 2 spouts: thus due to the random
position of the holes in the brew valve and distribution plate. An
absolute dynamic symmetry of the flow shouldn't be expected at the
level of spouts.

Algun



  
Date: 30 Apr 2007 13:17:16
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
In article <1177783872.645650.130460@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
mocha <acurster@gmail.com > wrote:
> On 27 Nisan, 05:18, "Bill (Adopt)" <a...@billsimpson.com> wrote:
> > In article <59c7rsF2kj9b...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Moka Java <rtwatc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[..]

> Thanks for the interesting info. I would like to add following to this
> thread:

> 1. Gaggia home models can't provide ideal brew conditions for the
> phase S3 due to cooling by fresh water entering the small boiler. That
> was proven in this forum by the poster Sparky (who is posting now in
> CoffeeSnobs).

I'm not that clear just how important this is? If,
as you might be suggesting, it really is a problem
with home (non commercial or non HX machines), then
are the manufacturers of all these home machines not
conning us, their captive purchasers...?

Perhaps we're all just gormlessly following the tale
of, "The King With No Clothes"...? In which case
Mr Achillo doesn't half have a lot to answer for! ;))

Without disputing your thoughtful observations, Gaggia's
small boiler (or rather water heater in the initial phase)
is still larger than say, for instance, the circular
pathway flash boiler/heater of a Krups Thermoblock type
vintage.

Although the Krups seems to have enough power for a
25ml-50ml shot espresso, handled correctly, what it may
not have as a Thermoblock is an immediately repeatable
steam facility when preparing milky drinks..

There are ways around this, of course, but it takes a
a few seconds of extra time, helped by an awareness of
the design, even domestically!

(The new Gaggia Twin may be one method of addressing
this problem and enhancing the Consumer experience)..

I've always surmised that, in refilling, the Gaggia
boiler may not immediately mix hot with new cold - nor
even allow the colder water to immediately enter the
group, but rather briefly lie unmixed as a denser layer
betwen the hot/cold boundary.

This will result in the cold water acting, under the
pressure of the pump, as a sort of medical syringe
plunger, pushing the already heated and less dense
water into the group.

So any change at the end of a shot may be less that of
new unheated water but, I've always thought, just one
of an over-long extraction.

Certainly, I don't have too much of a problem providing
I stop the draw - (around the 25ml mark with a single
basket or around 45/50ml tops including crema with the
double basket) - and this so even if it takes more than
30 seconds.

It's an Italian sized draw ;)) not quite the uber draw
that some USofA'ers seem to expect, (given the differences
between USA and European expectations)..

Oh yes! One or two of the better tasting draws that I've
had have even been those topping in excess of 40/55 seconds
when tamped with the force of an Altie's head-stand!

> 2. Myself added a second boiler to a Gaggia home maschine for
> preheating the brew water to around 85 C with amzing improvement of
> the shot quality (in S-3 sequence).

Yes.. :)) My mileage does vary.. I haven't yet managed to
tool up enough in my non-existing metal shop to emulate your
additional boilers et al! The PID itself remains a mystery... ;))


> 3. Gaggia's brew water supply to grounds lacks symmetry with respect
> to the vertical plane linking the 2 spouts: thus due to the random
> position of the holes in the brew valve and distribution plate. An
> absolute dynamic symmetry of the flow shouldn't be expected at the
> level of spouts.

As I say, I'm not arguing this, although I do suspect that
the boundary layer between hot and cold will still exist
within the boiler, even if smaller by commercial (HX?)
standards and even when, during the draw, the hot layer
isn't heated to much more than an initial 87C, or whatever
the thermo is supposed to give at the group/pf 'face...

Interesting considerations... :))

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/


   
Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:40:00
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...

"Bill (Adopt)" <adopt@billsimpson.com > wrote in message
news:4edba43fd0adopt@billsimpson.com...
> In article <1177783872.645650.130460@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> mocha <acurster@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 27 Nisan, 05:18, "Bill (Adopt)" <a...@billsimpson.com> wrote:
>> > In article <59c7rsF2kj9b...@mid.individual.net>,
>> > Moka Java <rtwatc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [..]
>
>> Thanks for the interesting info. I would like to add following to this
>> thread:
>
>> 1. Gaggia home models can't provide ideal brew conditions for the
>> phase S3 due to cooling by fresh water entering the small boiler. That
>> was proven in this forum by the poster Sparky (who is posting now in
>> CoffeeSnobs).

I'm no scientist, and I didn't read those posts, but I hope he remembered to
simulate the puck. I hate it when folks test water temps with fantastic
accuracy, but think an empty portafilter simulates real world conditions,
esp. for the water-entering-boiler issue.

C




 
Date: 23 Apr 2007 10:34:56
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 20, 5:23 pm, spr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Apr 20, 4:00 pm, Joe <Joe.He...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 20, 3:53 pm, spr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > Dude! How am I supposed to help with one hand? Thanks, though....al
>
> > > > Joe - bite this man's hand off.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > HA...that's great. Do you know the Sun Shoppe in Downtown Melbourne?
>
> I know it well. When are you there?....al

Mon, Tues, Fri, Sat (usually 8pm to close)



 
Date: 20 Apr 2007 14:23:43
From:
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 20, 4:00 pm, Joe <Joe.He...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 20, 3:53 pm, spr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Dude! How am I supposed to help with one hand? Thanks, though....al
>
> > > Joe - bite this man's hand off.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> HA...that's great. Do you know the Sun Shoppe in Downtown Melbourne?

I know it well. When are you there?....al



 
Date: 20 Apr 2007 13:00:56
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 20, 3:53 pm, spr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Dude! How am I supposed to help with one hand? Thanks, though....al
>
>
>
> > Joe - bite this man's hand off.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

HA...that's great. Do you know the Sun Shoppe in Downtown Melbourne?



 
Date: 20 Apr 2007 12:53:15
From:
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Dude! How am I supposed to help with one hand? Thanks, though....al


> Joe - bite this man's hand off.



 
Date: 20 Apr 2007 10:16:58
From:
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 20, 11:49 am, Joe <Joe.He...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 19, 10:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
> > On 19 Apr 2007 15:35:54 -0700, Joe <Joe.He...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >There's so much information to take in...it's like going down the
> > >rabbit hole. What makes it worse is that I'm trying to learn a lot of
> > >the stuff on my own. The owner of the coffee shop I work at doesn't
> > >provide much training so I've picked up a lot from coffeegeek.com,
> > >alt.coffee and the head barista at the shop.
>
> > where are you?
>
> > --barry "way down the bunny hole"
>
> Melbourne Florida (population 75,000)
>
> :)

Melbourne, huh? My backyard. Perhaps I could help....a



  
Date: 20 Apr 2007 20:43:21
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
sprsso@yahoo.com wrote:

>>Melbourne Florida (population 75,000)
>>
>>:)
>
>
> Melbourne, huh? My backyard. Perhaps I could help....a
>

Joe - bite this man's hand off. I would dearly love to have Al in my
back yard, to pop down and sample shots then give some seriously sage
advice on what to do. :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 20 Apr 2007 08:49:16
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 19, 10:53 pm, Barry Jarrett <b...@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
> On 19 Apr 2007 15:35:54 -0700, Joe <Joe.He...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >There's so much information to take in...it's like going down the
> >rabbit hole. What makes it worse is that I'm trying to learn a lot of
> >the stuff on my own. The owner of the coffee shop I work at doesn't
> >provide much training so I've picked up a lot from coffeegeek.com,
> >alt.coffee and the head barista at the shop.
>
> where are you?
>
> --barry "way down the bunny hole"

Melbourne Florida (population 75,000)

:)



 
Date: 19 Apr 2007 15:35:54
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 19, 4:40 pm, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
> Joe.He...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>


  
Date: 20 Apr 2007 02:53:10
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On 19 Apr 2007 15:35:54 -0700, Joe <Joe.Heide@gmail.com > wrote:

>There's so much information to take in...it's like going down the
>rabbit hole. What makes it worse is that I'm trying to learn a lot of
>the stuff on my own. The owner of the coffee shop I work at doesn't
>provide much training so I've picked up a lot from coffeegeek.com,
>alt.coffee and the head barista at the shop.

where are you?


--barry "way down the bunny hole"


 
Date: 19 Apr 2007 10:53:42
From:
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Apr 16, 1:58 am, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
> Danny <d...@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote:
>


 
Date: 19 Apr 2007 10:42:56
From:
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
> Except when they are not!
>
> - David R.

------

I'm a barista in training...so I'm really new to this, but I would
think that if your grounds are perfect, you tamp it evenly, the shot
takes around 25 sec and the puck comes out nicely (not muddy) that you
are pretty much guaranteed a good shot. What am I missing? Thanks!

Joe




  
Date: 19 Apr 2007 20:40:02
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Joe.Heide@gmail.com wrote:



   
Date: 20 Apr 2007 20:41:34
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:
> Joe.Heide@gmail.com wrote:
>
>


    
Date: 23 Apr 2007 16:12:08
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
> As Barry noted, you can't taste shots in a retail environment.
>

well you can, just most customers get a little upset when every time you
pull a great shot you try it and comment "wow, you would have loved that!"

:)

Brent




    
Date: 21 Apr 2007 07:56:34
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...


     
Date: 24 Apr 2007 02:38:37
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:56:34 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
Ross) wrote:

>


      
Date: 24 Apr 2007 08:26:39
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:



       
Date: 24 Apr 2007 23:39:03
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:26:39 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
Ross) wrote:

>Taste should be the same, unless eg the two spouts are connected to either
>end of a tiny Ranque-Hilsch tube cleverly secreted in the pf.

*should*....

we've had odd situations where espresso would pour light from one
spout and dark from the other. consistently. very strange.



        
Date: 25 Apr 2007 19:14:00
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Barry Jarrett wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:26:39 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
> Ross) wrote:
>
> >Taste should be the same, unless eg the two spouts are connected to either
> >end of a tiny Ranque-Hilsch tube cleverly secreted in the pf.
>
> *should*....
>
> we've had odd situations where espresso would pour light from one
> spout and dark from the other. consistently. very strange.
>

I had suggested the Coriolis effect when we were discussing this a few
years ago but the engineer sorts assured me that wasn't it.

R "does the water go straight down the drain at the equator?" TF


        
Date: 25 Apr 2007 07:30:02
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:39:03 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

>we've had odd situations where espresso would pour light from one
>spout and dark from the other. consistently. very strange.

The consistently part is strange. You can see the reason for it
happening occasioanlly on bottomless PFs, where the flow can be
delayed and darker on one side without it making any obvious
difference in the shot's taste.


         
Date: 25 Apr 2007 18:40:09
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:



          
Date: 25 Apr 2007 17:36:42
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:

> jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>


           
Date: 26 Apr 2007 03:09:02
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...


            
Date: 26 Apr 2007 07:53:23
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:

>


             
Date: 27 Apr 2007 00:19:38
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...


              
Date: 28 Apr 2007 19:20:28
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...

"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:46313f33.109675304@localhost...
>


              
Date: 27 Apr 2007 07:13:13
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:
>
> In an uncut pf the flow out of the basket hits the bottom of the pf, flows
> to the hole, mixes in the hole,

Perhaps you're right but the espresso starts forming as droplets on the
bottom of the basket and doesn't really start to flow with any volume
until it forms a cone in the middle of the basket which is right over
the hole in the pf. Again, I haven't spent any time in a pf but the
volume of flow doesn't seem to be enough to fill the pf below the basket
before the cone is formed.

hits the stream-splitting part of the spout,
> then splits into two streams.

So my conclusion is that something happens when the espresso hits the
crotch of the double spout.

I think it is extremely unlikely that, even
> if the stream is two-tone coming off the bottom of the basket, it would
> fail to mix en route to the exit points.

I've never seen the stream from the basket come off as two-tone. But
since one shot glass starts to fill earlier and ends up with more volume
the shots look and taste different.

In particular, even if the pf hole
> was large enough,

I haven't made measurements but by eyeball it looks large enough.

and the stream out of the basket thin and centered enough,

The flow off the basket is pretty well centered.

> so that the stream didn't hit the pf bottom or even the sides of the hole,
> and even if it just so happened that the color split was exactly
> side-to-side and not front-to-back,

But I haven't been arguing that the espresso is uneven out of the
basket, just from the double pf spouts.

I think it would still mix when it hit
> the crotch of the spout.

Or something happens there anyway.

R "problem solved with a bottomless" TF

>
> - David R.
> --
> Less information than you ever thought possible:
> http://www.demitasse.net


            
Date: 26 Apr 2007 08:29:27
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
In article <46301483.33211445@localhost >,
D. Ross <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote:
In article <599vv3F2ivkuiU1@mid.individual.net >,
Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote:

>


             
Date: 26 Apr 2007 09:17:47
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...


              
Date: 26 Apr 2007 15:26:14
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
In article <46306d30.55912668@localhost >,
D. Ross <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote:
>


               
Date: 26 Apr 2007 14:04:20
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Bill (Adopt) wrote:
> In article <46306d30.55912668@localhost>,
> D. Ross <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Volume is a different matter - we are discussing taste and color.
>
>
> Indeed.. :))
>
> ..which is why I hesitantly suggested that volume,
> if not precisely the same thing, may nevertheless
> be heading along the same line.
>
> It may even be the subtle cause of the change in
> colour and taste earlier noted by R "Moka Java " TF.
>
> It can sometimes be difficult to observe the reality
> of a minute difference.

Try this experiment: Get 3 shot glasses. Dose and tamp a double shot
in your usual way. Pull the first 10 seconds of the shot into one
glass, the second 10 seconds into another and a the last 10 seconds into
the third glass. Then taste the difference.

>
> Perhaps a bottomless pf may be a better choice for us
> all, removing most of the introduced variables of colour,
> taste, consistency and, if drastically, twin 'volumes'.. ;))

The bottomless pf has gone a long way in improving the quality and
consistency of my espresso.

R "haven't had an uneven pour in years" TF


                
Date: 27 Apr 2007 13:18:06
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
In article <59c7rsF2kj9bpU1@mid.individual.net >,
Moka Java <rtwatches@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Bill (Adopt) wrote:
> > In article <46306d30.55912668@localhost>,
> > D. Ross <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu> wrote:

> >>Volume is a different matter - we are discussing taste and color.
[..]
> > ..which is why I hesitantly suggested that volume,
> > if not precisely the same thing, may nevertheless
> > be heading along the same line.
[..]
> Try this experiment: Get 3 shot glasses. Dose and tamp a double shot
> in your usual way. Pull the first 10 seconds of the shot into one
> glass, the second 10 seconds into another and a the last 10 seconds into
> the third glass. Then taste the difference.

Wot! Agin..?!

You really trust my pensioner palete, after decades of
abuse..?

..mmm... ooooo-kay..

<pitter patter >....
later
....<patter pitter >

Right..

Machine: Gaggia Coffee, c.2006, de-loused, scaled,
home-scrubbed, spit and polished 5 days
ago.

Grinder: Cunill CT-1 in reasonably excellent nick.

Beans: Tesco "Original" blend; first opened around
6/7 days ago - frozen on opening and ground
frozen for no other reason than they don't
seem to mind being kept tightly wrapped in
the -20C cool and dark.

Basket: Gaggia double.

Puck: 14gm, light tamp, slightly convex polished
stainless steel "Whitards" 57.5mm(ish) tamper.

Glass: Three; Polish clear 1oz measure (1819 Imp),
pre-heated to same temperature with heated
water from equalising Gaggia pf and group.

S1; 1-10 secs:

Look: Singular dark syruppy unbroken
mouse-tail from left spout only.
Thin and dissipating crema.

Flavour: Clear flavour, not in the least
bitter; a strong floral-honey woodland
over-note, complemented by a gentle
citrus underbody. (A bit unexpected
this early in the shot).

S2; c.10-20 secs:

Look: Continuing unbroken mouse-tail from
first spout, broken mouse-tail from
2nd spout. Solid and well-coloured
'mahogany' crema, a dark if now more
liquid syrup.

Flavour: Not as clear or with the same notes
as S1, but with a slightly 'sweeter',
perhaps mellower, combined if vague
tone. The early floral overnote with
citrus underbody almost not drectly
evident.

S3; c.10-20 secs:

Look: Both spouts lightening considerably
throughout end of shot. Both mouse
-tails foamy. A tan hint to the liquor,
although (unexpectedly) the crema
solid, unbroken and still 'inviting',
and only slightly 'lighter' in overall
colour cf. S2, if at all...

Flavour: Noticeably weaker than S1 and S2,
almost consistent with a filter
coffee, but without the complex
flavours associated with such.

Thin, watery and slightly 'unclean'
on the palate; a lot of the earlier
mellowness and various notes now lost.
For this tasting, decidedly not a sip
to be supped by itself!

I wonder if S3 is why the Gaggia Barista Trainers in GB
have tended to advise a 20 second draw rather than the 25
second of a.c., or the 30 second of the above quick test.

Interesting one-off experiment, using beans and equipment
exactly as in direct use today; no frills, no extras.. :))

[..]
> > Perhaps a bottomless pf may be a better choice for us
> > all, removing most of the introduced variables of colour,
> > taste, consistency and, if drastically, twin 'volumes'.. ;))

> The bottomless pf has gone a long way in improving the quality and
> consistency of my espresso.

Useful to hear... :))

<aside >
Trouble is, after an earlier discussion in a.c., I had a
very nice email from 'Helen', who I think supplies Danny
with many of his goodies, asking for my contact details
so she could organise a regional contact ..but nothing
from then on, despite my polite attempts to reach her.

> R "haven't had an uneven pour in years" TF

:))


Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/


        
Date: 25 Apr 2007 07:44:08
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Barry Jarrett wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:26:39 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
> Ross) wrote:
>
> >Taste should be the same, unless eg the two spouts are connected to either
> >end of a tiny Ranque-Hilsch tube cleverly secreted in the pf.
>
> *should*....
>
> we've had odd situations where espresso would pour light from one
> spout and dark from the other. consistently. very strange.
>

The Silvia would produce uneven flow, volume and color, from the double
spouts with no reasonable explanation for the phenomena. Everything was
level and once under pressure the flow of water from the dispersion
screen shouldn't make a difference.

R "go bottomless and your angle is never in question" TF


        
Date: 25 Apr 2007 09:28:41
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:



     
Date: 21 Apr 2007 10:27:32
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:
>


      
Date: 21 Apr 2007 22:14:45
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:



 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 08:32:39
From: Roger Shoaf
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:58ebk5F2gedglU1@mid.individual.net...
> I have a new member of the team - Tracy, and whilst she has been
> getting to grips with life in the trailer, learning the easier tasks,
> I have been introducing her to espresso, from the ground up, so I've
> been demonstrating the "rules of espresso". Sounds great, but part of
> my demonstration involves showing why a fault in any of the steps can
> result in a bad shot.
>
> She now knows what a good shot looks like (volume, crema, time etc)
> but every time I try to demonstrate why each variable is important, by
> changing it, we still get a good looking shot! (Not that it would
> taste good)....

Would ? By this do you suggest that the shts pulled were *not* tasted?


--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.




  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 18:13:06
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Roger Shoaf wrote:

> Would ? By this do you suggest that the shts pulled were *not* tasted?
>
>

Yes. As with all my staff so far, who now love straight espresso, she
actually doesn't like "strong coffee" and wouldn't be able to judge
good or bad. Give me time, though :)

She (Tracy) is 21 and drinks weak and very milky tea. It's taken
three days to train her that not everyone likes tea made this way, but
we are making good progress...


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



   
Date: 19 Apr 2007 13:28:34
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
water down the shots...

> Roger Shoaf wrote:
>
>> Would ? By this do you suggest that the shts pulled were *not* tasted?
>>
>>
>
> Yes. As with all my staff so far, who now love straight espresso, she
> actually doesn't like "strong coffee" and wouldn't be able to judge good
> or bad. Give me time, though :)
>
> She (Tracy) is 21 and drinks weak and very milky tea. It's taken three
> days to train her that not everyone likes tea made this way, but we are
> making good progress...
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 07:26:50
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

>....
>So whilst trying to impress the importance of each variable that we
>can affect, I've singularly failed to demonstrate any of it!
>

In approximately 6.5 years of making espresso at home, I can't
remember pulling any shots which did not have crema. Pre-roasted, old
and stale, fresh-roasted, fast pulls, slow pulls- they all exhibited a
reasonable amount of crema. The only crema indicators I have seen
which indicate poor espresso were light in color, lost most of their
volume in less than two or three minutes, or both.

I think was have said here before that the presence of crema does not
mean good espresso, but the absence of crema does mean bad espresso
(unless you are using an aeropress.. ;-) )..

As Alan said, it is the taste that counts. Turn the brew temp down,
three clicks more coarse, and under-dose just a bit. If she can drink
that without looking to expectorate into the sink, you have a keeper,
Danny!

Randy "Caustic Crema and the Portafilters opening for the Stones" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




  
Date: 19 Apr 2007 13:28:07
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
I didn't know you could get a pressurised portafilter fo rthe Silvia...

>
> In approximately 6.5 years of making espresso at home, I can't
> remember pulling any shots which did not have crema. Pre-roasted, old
> and stale, fresh-roasted, fast pulls, slow pulls- they all exhibited a
> reasonable amount of crema. The only crema indicators I have seen
> which indicate poor espresso were light in color, lost most of their
> volume in less than two or three minutes, or both.
>
> Randy "Caustic Crema and the Portafilters opening for the Stones" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>




  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 18:28:40
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Randy G. wrote:
-snip-
> As Alan said, it is the taste that counts. Turn the brew temp down,
> three clicks more coarse, and under-dose just a bit. If she can drink
> that without looking to expectorate into the sink, you have a keeper,
> Danny!
>


Of course my post is a bit tongue in cheek, and the one variable I
can't control easily on a lever machine is temp. As I've replied
elsewhere, Tracy doesn't like espresso yet.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 12:34:52
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Taste 'em before you decide the rules are wrong. It's all about the taste...


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 18:27:00
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Coffee for Connoisseurs wrote:
> Taste 'em before you decide the rules are wrong. It's all about the taste...
>
>

You are right of course, but the new starter doesn't like espresso
(yet). I could taste them and wince, but it wouldn't have the same
effect :)

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 11:43:13
From: John LaBella
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
In article <58ebk5F2gedglU1@mid.individual.net >, danny@nospam.gaggia-
espresso.com says...

>
> So whilst trying to impress the importance of each variable that we
> can affect, I've singularly failed to demonstrate any of it!
>
>
>
A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of using a much higher end
machine than I usually use and found that with really good "equipment"
you can deliver a shot that while not approaching the "grail" is
emminently drinkable with coffee that is less than "optimal".

When all factors align under the planets it is easier and more
repeatible to pull a G shot with the right equipment.


  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 12:56:17
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...


  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 23:38:20
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
(My apologies if this shows up twice, I'm having server problems.)



   
Date: 16 Apr 2007 06:37:55
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:

> Any machine I know?-)
>
> Danny, the problem is that you are trying to teach quality of shot by
> appearance. I've argued with people about this before (once, as you will
> recall, quite recently) - you cannot learn to pull a great shot if you are
> only using your eyes to taste it.
>

Since the chances of employing new staff who like espresso are
virtually zero in Portsmouth, how do you propose I proceed?

It's worked with four previous staff. They all had an aversion to
espresso, then through time they started to drink lattes etc then
began to enjoy straight shots.

Don't forget that I myself don't particularly like straight shots
either, but that doesn't mean I can't distinguish good from bad.

I happen to know my equipment, and that if the variables are right and
the puck is good when ejected then the chances are that the shot will
be fine. Watching the pour and examining the used puck are, to me,
good indicators, when one can't taste the shot.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



    
Date: 16 Apr 2007 05:58:31
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:



     
Date: 16 Apr 2007 19:19:30
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:58:31 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
Ross) wrote:

>


      
Date: 17 Apr 2007 03:50:49
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:



      
Date: 16 Apr 2007 16:56:11
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:19:30 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

>some people freak when the barista smells the
>shot,

Yuck, pre-smelt coffee!

I wonder if it's adultery if a spouse wears a fragrance outside the
house.


       
Date: 16 Apr 2007 15:32:39
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:19:30 GMT, Barry Jarrett
><barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
>>some people freak when the barista smells the
>>shot,
>
>Yuck, pre-smelt coffee!
>
>I wonder if it's adultery if a spouse wears a fragrance outside the
>house.
>
It probably is (or shortly will be), if that's ALL she's wearing!


Randy "nose naked Nancy" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




        
Date: 16 Apr 2007 20:51:01
From: Roger Shoaf
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...

"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:sau72390d21asso9sggg7a794nbm3vstjr@4ax.com...
> jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >I wonder if it's adultery if a spouse wears a fragrance outside the
> >house.
> >
> It probably is (or shortly will be), if that's ALL she's wearing!
>

Do you suppose that infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

--
Roger Shoaf

If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the
Congress?




         
Date: 25 Apr 2007 07:32:37
From: stpnrzr
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
Roger Shoaf wrote:
> "Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote in message
> news:sau72390d21asso9sggg7a794nbm3vstjr@4ax.com...
>> jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if it's adultery if a spouse wears a fragrance outside the
>>> house.
>>>
>> It probably is (or shortly will be), if that's ALL she's wearing!
>>
>
> Do you suppose that infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
>
More!!


        
Date: 16 Apr 2007 18:57:59
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...

"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:sau72390d21asso9sggg7a794nbm3vstjr@4ax.com...
> jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:19:30 GMT, Barry Jarrett
>><barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>>
>>>some people freak when the barista smells the
>>>shot,
>>
>>Yuck, pre-smelt coffee!
>>
>>I wonder if it's adultery if a spouse wears a fragrance outside the
>>house.
>>
> It probably is (or shortly will be), if that's ALL she's wearing!
>
>
> Randy "nose naked Nancy" G.
>

ROTFLMAO!! {;-D
Craig.




     
Date: 16 Apr 2007 10:10:56
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
D. Ross wrote:

> They can still taste it, even if they don't like it. You yourself have
> pointed out that with bad technique you can pull bad shots that still look
> good...that's the point of your original post, no? - so if your training
> techniques are purely visual then you are stuck.

You are right, and I've acknowledged in the past that even if one
doesn't like something one can still taste good and bad. But that's
for further down the line - at present she still has to learn the
mechanics...

>
>


  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 18:26:12
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
John LaBella wrote:

> A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of using a much higher end
> machine than I usually use and found that with really good "equipment"
> you can deliver a shot that while not approaching the "grail" is
> emminently drinkable with coffee that is less than "optimal".
>
> When all factors align under the planets it is easier and more
> repeatible to pull a G shot with the right equipment.

Actually, John, I believe that's why lever machines are good. They
seem to be forgiving of a lot of mistakes. I've served shots where
they've been rather ristretto, to the point where I've pulled the
lever three times (it's normally two pulls for a double, one ounce
each pull) and still got a good shot. I'm not good with straight
espresso, but I have a few customers who are happy to experiment by
drinking the result, and we throw away those they don't like. It's a
good way to learn...


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 13:32:57
From: Izak van Langevelde
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
In article <58ebk5F2gedglU1@mid.individual.net >,
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

> So whilst trying to impress the importance of each variable that we
> can affect, I've singularly failed to demonstrate any of it!

That's what rules are for: they are mostly rules of thumb, as opposed to
laws of nature. In traffic, you may be able to ignore traffic lights and
signs, and still arrive home safely. However, it is generally considered
a bad idea to step from a rooftop, because you expect Gravity to be a
rule of thumb, only to discover that Gravity is a rule of *THUMP*

--
Grinnikend door het leven...


 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 06:17:51
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Throw away the espresso "rules"...
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:05:06 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

> ...
>So whilst trying to impress the importance of each variable that we
>can affect, I've singularly failed to demonstrate any of it!

Whatever tweak you last did on you machine, patent it and sell it to
Krups -- they're always looking for foolproof, "there's variables?"
ways to get good shots.