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Date: 17 Jan 2007 18:55:44
From: Davlo
Subject: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
Well? I 've heard so much conflicting info on whether or not to freeze
coffee beans that I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Can
anyone provide definitive reasoning in favor or against? Thanks.






 
Date: 23 Jan 2007 19:17:20
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?


On Jan 21, 12:59 pm, Roque Ja wrote:

>You might want to make the acquaintance of a wonderful typographical
> device> One that makes it much easier for the reader. It's called the
> paragraph break. Old-school programmers know it as the CR-LF.
>
> Easily inserted into your text. Just hit the Return key twice.
>
> It's true that there are some brilliant prose stylists who choose to
> use it sparingly, but for most of us it can be a godsend.
>
> _______________________________________
> Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
> offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
> If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
> me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.

Vacuumed and nothing not related to anything but, so needn't have
broken off into single syllables. Amazing little buggers in what
technology advances for $40 these days. CR-LF's a double-scan - ASCII
13 or 14 - used to it from writing macros in old program editors, only
still using the stuff via 4NT for a command interpreter to call a likes
of MultiEdit or various 90's TSR (terminate & stay resident) for
overlaying QEdit in a present XP background. Also keep UNIX ports for
streaming text off keypoints. Think it's a pagefeed in MSWord. Hard
to beat the rasterized synergy in WYSIWYG for doing books or
documentation, though give me the old stuff anytime when it's time to
crunch.



 
Date: 21 Jan 2007 08:45:33
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?

Davlo wrote:
> I have been told that freezing them in a residential type freezer destroys
> the oils and dries out the beans. Something to do with the automatic
> defrosting on freezers. I suppose that if you had a manual defrost, this
> wouldn't apply, but our fridge/freezer is a fully featured model. Again, I
> don't know if there's any validity to these claims. I have been keeping my
> beans in a ziploc baggy which is then placed in an airtight canister which I
> keep on the counter next to my coffee machine.
>
> I buy my beans from a local roaster (Majik Coffee Roasters, North Kingstown,
> RI) and use them within 3-4 weeks. I do notice a slight change in taste by
> the 3rd or 4th week, but not so bad as to make it a big problem. I buy my
> beans 1/2 pound at a time.

Just finished roasting and tasting from an Ethiopian .5lb batch. Two
portions in light-mil sandwich ziplocks, vacuum sealed for a few days
ahead, and using the rest. Once roasted, they're venting CO2, and past
the first day, on their way to wearing down. CO2 is important to a
window for forming creama, and freezing prolongs beans venting.
Countertop batches are recommended being good for around a week. Have
a preroasted 5lb. order from several months back split into heavier
millage freezer bags. They're not as tight a vacuum anymore, holding
up, as taste hasn't really deteriorated. Next best thing to roasting,
freezing. Given something exceptional in the way of beans (sure be nice
to find a favorably flavored reddish extraction from select arabica
beans again), wouldn't hesitate to freeze on another preroast order. I
settled with Glad brandname freezer bags for use on a $40 vacuum
machine. They're blue and slightly corrugated bags, although not
always. The exact same box may be loaded with clear, slick bags, so I
"pinch" 'em somewhere along the box beforehand to see what's inside. A
slightly thicker mill, the blues, and the closest I've found resembling
intended material for a vacuum sealer. Corrugation is the trick, and
slicker bags are more difficult to "catch" a strong vacuum seal when
pulling out air, which then may require finagling for a seal by
repositioning bags or cutting a new edge with scissors. For a quarter
of the price of boutique vacuum bags, though, I've found Glad do well
enough for freezer sealing vacuumed perishables.



  
Date: 21 Jan 2007 09:59:42
From:
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
On 21 Jan 2007 08:45:33 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote:

>
>Just finished roasting and tasting from an Ethiopian .5lb batch. Two
>portions in light-mil sandwich ziplocks, vacuum sealed for a few days
>ahead, and using the rest. Once roasted, they're venting CO2, and past
>the first day, on their way to wearing down. CO2 is important to a
>window for forming creama, and freezing prolongs beans venting.
>Countertop batches are recommended being good for around a week. Have
>a preroasted 5lb. order from several months back split into heavier
>millage freezer bags. They're not as tight a vacuum anymore, holding
>up, as taste hasn't really deteriorated. Next best thing to roasting,
>freezing. Given something exceptional in the way of beans (sure be nice
>to find a favorably flavored reddish extraction from select arabica
>beans again), wouldn't hesitate to freeze on another preroast order. I
>settled with Glad brandname freezer bags for use on a $40 vacuum
>machine. They're blue and slightly corrugated bags, although not
>always. The exact same box may be loaded with clear, slick bags, so I
>"pinch" 'em somewhere along the box beforehand to see what's inside. A
>slightly thicker mill, the blues, and the closest I've found resembling
>intended material for a vacuum sealer. Corrugation is the trick, and
>slicker bags are more difficult to "catch" a strong vacuum seal when
>pulling out air, which then may require finagling for a seal by
>repositioning bags or cutting a new edge with scissors. For a quarter
>of the price of boutique vacuum bags, though, I've found Glad do well
>enough for freezer sealing vacuumed perishables.


You might want to make the acquaintance of a wonderful typographical
device > One that makes it much easier for the reader. It's called the
paragraph break. Old-school programmers know it as the CR-LF.

Easily inserted into your text. Just hit the Return key twice.

It's true that there are some brilliant prose stylists who choose to
use it sparingly, but for most of us it can be a godsend.









_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


   
Date: 23 Jan 2007 05:16:15
From: Stuart Hudson
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
Roque Ja wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2007 08:45:33 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:
>
Large snip


>
>
> You might want to make the acquaintance of a wonderful typographical
> device>

And you might like to learn, before you get too pompous, not to quote
the whole message.

Stuart Hudson


    
Date: 23 Jan 2007 07:11:27
From: Russell Patterson
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:16:15 +0000, Stuart Hudson
<mhh21cremovethis@hotmail.com > wrote:

>Roque Ja wrote:
> > On 21 Jan 2007 08:45:33 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:
> >
>Large snip
>
>
> >
> >
> > You might want to make the acquaintance of a wonderful typographical
> > device>
>
>And you might like to learn, before you get too pompous, not to quote
>the whole message.

You can call it a message if you want. I call it rambling. Even with
paragraphs it would be pretty much incoherent.





     
Date: 25 Jan 2007 14:22:54
From: Russell Patterson
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:11:27 -0500, Russell Patterson <me@privacy.net >
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:16:15 +0000, Stuart Hudson
><mhh21cremovethis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Roque Ja wrote:
>> > On 21 Jan 2007 08:45:33 -0800, "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote:
>> >
>>Large snip
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > You might want to make the acquaintance of a wonderful typographical
>> > device>
>>
>>And you might like to learn, before you get too pompous, not to quote
>>the whole message.
>
>You can call it a message if you want. I call it rambling. Even with
>paragraphs it would be pretty much incoherent.
>
>
Great thing about Agent is the kill filters. Won't have to read any
more incoherent thoughts from Flasherly. Unfortunately/fortunately it
removed his posts, so I have to respond to my own!


      
Date: 25 Jan 2007 20:06:52
From:
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:22:54 -0500, Russell Patterson <me@privacy.net >
wrote:

>>
>Great thing about Agent is the kill filters. Won't have to read any
>more incoherent thoughts from Flasherly. Unfortunately/fortunately it
>removed his posts, so I have to respond to my own!


I love flasherly's posts. They're only incoherant because he doesn't
space them out with paragraphs (Ok, ok, they're plenty spaced out, but
not typographically). With a few <return >s here and there, they'd be
right on point.

Seriously.






_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.


       
Date: 26 Jan 2007 20:55:10
From: Russell Patterson
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:06:52 -0800, Roque Ja wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:22:54 -0500, Russell Patterson <me@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>
>>Great thing about Agent is the kill filters. Won't have to read any
>>more incoherent thoughts from Flasherly. Unfortunately/fortunately it
>>removed his posts, so I have to respond to my own!
>
>
>I love flasherly's posts. They're only incoherant because he doesn't
>space them out with paragraphs (Ok, ok, they're plenty spaced out, but
>not typographically). With a few <return>s here and there, they'd be
>right on point.
>
>Seriously.
I disagree. Even with paragraphs his movement from one to the next
would have no flow as far as topic goes. It's one random thought
after another with nothing leading to the next.



>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________
>Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
>offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
>If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
>me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.



 
Date: 20 Jan 2007 18:30:46
From:
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
I won the WLL professional latte art this summer. I am getting a lot
of beans every month. I have started freezing the extra beans I get
and have gotten very good results. I think it definately beats letting
them sit at room temp. Rob



  
Date: 20 Jan 2007 20:14:22
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
<glpath@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1169346646.764301.119180@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I won the WLL professional latte art this summer. I am getting a lot
> of beans every month. I have started freezing the extra beans I get
> and have gotten very good results. I think it definately beats letting
> them sit at room temp. Rob
>

Congratulations!

Jim Schulman and I are planning to do a real, statistically valid, blind
tasting comparison between never frozen and previously frozen beans when Jim
comes to visit me in about a month. We will do enough paired blind shots to
determine if there is a statistically significant difference between these
beans, looking for a difference that is worth noting. I have already
roasted and frozen the beans that will be the frozen samples, which will
have been frozen for periods of one and two months (we'll look at both).

Stay tuned.

ken




   
Date: 20 Jan 2007 23:35:30
From: hfw
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
Ken, I would also be interested to know whether vacuum sealing the bags
before freezing makes a difference. Will that be part of your test?

--Heidi

Ken Fox wrote:
> Jim Schulman and I are planning to do a real, statistically valid, blind
> tasting comparison between never frozen and previously frozen beans when Jim
> comes to visit me in about a month. We will do enough paired blind shots to
> determine if there is a statistically significant difference between these
> beans, looking for a difference that is worth noting. I have already
> roasted and frozen the beans that will be the frozen samples, which will
> have been frozen for periods of one and two months (we'll look at both).
>
> Stay tuned.
>
> ken


    
Date: 20 Jan 2007 23:25:27
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
"hfw" <nospam@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:51g8scF1k87n5U1@mid.individual.net...
> Ken, I would also be interested to know whether vacuum sealing the bags
> before freezing makes a difference. Will that be part of your test?
>
> --Heidi

No, it will not. I do not have a vacuum sealer, and I doubt that very many
others do or will use them. In fact, my normal practice for my own
consumption is to put the coffee immediately after roasting into glass mason
jars (or similar), to fill them as full as practicable, to seal them, and to
put them into a very cold freezer. There is a lot of coffee involved in
this test and using glass jars will take up too much room in my freezer. In
addition, I think that most home users would freeze in plastic bags of some
sort, or use the valve bags they bought the coffee in if it was commercially
roasted.

Therefore, for purposes of this test, the coffee has been frozen in sealed
plastic valve bags intended for coffee. Because the valves in valve bags
function with a minute drop of oil (which will freeze either open or shut,
but will not act as a valve in the freezer), I have placed a piece of scotch
tape over the valve. Since the coffee is not degassing much in a cold
freezer, there is no need of the valve while it is frozen, and when
defrosted I'll remove the tape or put a small hole in it so that the valve
can evacuate accumulated gas as the coffee warms up to room temperature in
the bag.

I personally do not believe that home vacuum devices can create enough of a
vacuum to make any difference in the impact of freezing on coffee storage.
If the study shows that there is a noticeable difference between previously
frozen and never frozen coffee, one can speculate why and someone with a
home vacuum device would certainly be welcome to repeat the experiment to
see if it makes any difference. If there is no noticeable difference in the
coffee, then it would be apparent (at least to me) that vacuuming the valve
bag prior to freezing is unnecessary.

ken




 
Date: 20 Jan 2007 17:38:03
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
What have you heard against freezing and from whom? All the people who have
done this scientifically (e.g. Sivetz) have nothing bad to say about
freezing.


"Davlo" <davlo@cox.net > wrote in message
news:%Hyrh.57954$kn7.39678@newsfe23.lga...
> Well? I 've heard so much conflicting info on whether or not to freeze
> coffee beans that I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter.
> Can anyone provide definitive reasoning in favor or against? Thanks.
>




  
Date: 21 Jan 2007 08:13:56
From: Davlo
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:wrqdnZUYX_5WBC_YnZ2dnUVZ_rqhnZ2d@comcast.com...
> What have you heard against freezing and from whom? All the people who
> have done this scientifically (e.g. Sivetz) have nothing bad to say about
> freezing.


I have been told that freezing them in a residential type freezer destroys
the oils and dries out the beans. Something to do with the automatic
defrosting on freezers. I suppose that if you had a manual defrost, this
wouldn't apply, but our fridge/freezer is a fully featured model. Again, I
don't know if there's any validity to these claims. I have been keeping my
beans in a ziploc baggy which is then placed in an airtight canister which I
keep on the counter next to my coffee machine.

I buy my beans from a local roaster (Majik Coffee Roasters, North Kingstown,
RI) and use them within 3-4 weeks. I do notice a slight change in taste by
the 3rd or 4th week, but not so bad as to make it a big problem. I buy my
beans 1/2 pound at a time.




   
Date: 21 Jan 2007 09:17:32
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
Perhaps if you spread the beans loosely in the bottom of the freezer they
might "freezer burn" as you describe. But assuming the beans are inside
pacakaging (a plastic bag or a container) it can't happen - the oils have
nowhere to go.


"Davlo" <davlo@cox.net > wrote in message
news:9GJsh.49379$oA1.36728@newsfe19.lga...
>
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:wrqdnZUYX_5WBC_YnZ2dnUVZ_rqhnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> What have you heard against freezing and from whom? All the people who
>> have done this scientifically (e.g. Sivetz) have nothing bad to say about
>> freezing.
>
>
> I have been told that freezing them in a residential type freezer destroys
> the oils and dries out the beans. Something to do with the automatic
> defrosting on freezers. I suppose that if you had a manual defrost, this
> wouldn't apply, but our fridge/freezer is a fully featured model. Again, I
> don't know if there's any validity to these claims. I have been keeping my
> beans in a ziploc baggy which is then placed in an airtight canister which
> I keep on the counter next to my coffee machine.
>
> I buy my beans from a local roaster (Majik Coffee Roasters, North
> Kingstown, RI) and use them within 3-4 weeks. I do notice a slight change
> in taste by the 3rd or 4th week, but not so bad as to make it a big
> problem. I buy my beans 1/2 pound at a time.
>




  
Date: 20 Jan 2007 19:07:47
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:wrqdnZUYX_5WBC_YnZ2dnUVZ_rqhnZ2d@comcast.com...
> What have you heard against freezing and from whom? All the people who
> have done this scientifically (e.g. Sivetz) have nothing bad to say about
> freezing.

Unfortunately, in his later years Sivetz has founded a new religion whose
tenets are that only air roasting is "good," and anyone practicing drum
roasting is either under the control of the devil, or maybe the devil
himself. I have spoken to the master himself once a few years back before I
bought my (devilish) drum sample roaster.

It is amusing to encounter one of his diciples, someone who has actually
bought one of those Rube Goldbergesque "fluid bed" roasters he cobbles
together in his garage (or at least they look like he cobbles them together
in his garage). I had occasion a couple of years ago to meet this diciple
roaster of his using one of those godawful contraptions in Fairbanks,
Alaska. There is absolutely nothing good about drum roasting, it ruins the
beans, blah blah blah, this air thing here is the only way to roast coffee,
see, it is propelled on a bed of air, blah blah blah. I cut him off after
about 5 minutes. Next year at the SCAA I'm going to go around to all the
famous roasters we admire here and tell them what a horrible thing they are
doing to their beans, in drums.




 
Date: 18 Jan 2007 18:13:24
From: Felix
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
Davlo asks:
> Can anyone provide definitive reasoning in favor or against?

I hope not ... I think there are too many variables including freezer
temperature, container quality, thawing technique, and consumption
rate. I freeze because my rate is very low, about 1 lb. per month.


Felix



 
Date: 18 Jan 2007 15:25:52
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?

Flasherly wrote:
> horrible, bitter stuff when made in a plumbed commercial dripper. Not
> that the freezer lot is much better if I use that same dripper to make
> french-pressed style - which tastes like bland watered-down coffee sold
> everywhere, just not bitter or burnt.

Correction - french-pressed style with a better bean from the -freezer
stores- [heat water in a pot, dump some beans I just ground out of the
freezer, set to extract, then strain through a paper filter... viola,
quick crapola compared to what the espresso machine produces on the
same grind].



 
Date: 18 Jan 2007 15:17:22
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?

Davlo wrote:
> Well? I 've heard so much conflicting info on whether or not to freeze
> coffee beans that I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Can
> anyone provide definitive reasoning in favor or against? Thanks.

Better to go green and keep them fresh. I've frozen vacuum packs, and
although they're doing OK, I don't believe they've quite the "tangy"
taste as when first received fresh roasted. It's going on three
months, and I've started to use them out of the freezer more often,
like quick quadshots on the way out with a 16oz. thermos. Nicer,
though, knowing beans are the best capable by simply roasting them
beforehand. Even if I roast too much and end up drinking "leftovers" -
something past 7 days - the fresh roast is still tastier than freezer
stores. Not that bad for freezer stock, again, comparatively. Was
given some storefront gourmet prepackaged ground coffee xmas -
horrible, bitter stuff when made in a plumbed commercial dripper. Not
that the freezer lot is much better if I use that same dripper to make
french-pressed style - which tastes like bland watered-down coffee sold
everywhere, just not bitter or burnt.



 
Date: 18 Jan 2007 00:20:08
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:55:44 -0500, "Davlo" <davlo@cox.net > wrote:

>Well? I 've heard so much conflicting info on whether or not to freeze
>coffee beans that I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Can
>anyone provide definitive reasoning in favor or against? Thanks.

Commercial (-40F or C) freezers are said to conserve both roasted
(Sivetz) and green coffee (Terroir) indefinitely (providing you don't
soak them in condensate when removing them).

How well this applies to the ca. 0F to 10F domestic freezers remains
to be seen. I usually freeze a batch before going on coffee desert
vacations, so I can have a welcome home shot. Comparing this to the
subsequent batch of fresh roasted seems to point to home freezing
being good for at least 3 to 4 weeks. But I haven't done any rigorous
experiments on it.


  
Date: 19 Jan 2007 13:30:26
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:1u3uq29na3gf6uhmccj0ieh16i2eh7unaa@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:55:44 -0500, "Davlo" <davlo@cox.net> wrote:
>
But I haven't done any rigorous
> experiments on it.

that appears to be about to change . . . .




  
Date: 18 Jan 2007 06:45:22
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
>But I haven't done any rigorous
>experiments on it.

I have. Using vac packed beans (mostly to remove moisture & some oxygen) in
laminated valved bags you've got about 3 months tops in a chest type
freezer.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




 
Date: 18 Jan 2007 02:02:54
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: To Freeze or Not to Freeze?
In article <%Hyrh.57954$kn7.39678@newsfe23.lga >,
Davlo <davlo@cox.net > wrote:
> Well? I 've heard so much conflicting info on whether or not to freeze
> coffee beans that I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter. Can
> anyone provide definitive reasoning in favor or against? Thanks.

Well... ;))

With the Ice-Man, (the 5000yr old corpse that appeared
out of a glacier on the border of Austria and Italy and
whose remains the Italians have now claimed), it would
appear that the wood of his arrows - and the grass and
the leather/grass bindings of his flight attachments,
have been very well preserved over the 5000+ years - as
well as his grass insulated cold-weather gear, eats and
other bits and bobs..

..so given that coffee beans, (well, dried cherries),
are made of much the same plant material as wood, one
could possibly expect them to be preserved equally as
well in an icy environment.

Most things - just about everything - seems to preserve
well in either a frozen, dried or freeze-dried state, so
my guess is that the USofA's FDA wouldn't see any harm
in it.

Measuring beans straight from the freezer, (where stored
only because it's as convenient place as anywhere), the
slight moisture that attaches to the beans as they enter
the warmth of the kitchen, /might/ help in keeping dust
and static at bay. There's certainly no need to defrost
the beans before grinding - the heat generated by the
plates as each bean hits them does that. If anything,
the coolness of the beans might assist heat control,
heat I guess providing a much greater degeneration and
evaporation of oils.

Empirically - I haven't noticed any difference in taste
between a batch split three-ways, one third stored in the
cupboard, one third in the 'fridge and the last third in
the freezer - 'coz I tried just for my own interest.

One the other hand, the test wasn't scientifically set
up ..and, as I'm only a 'learner', I doubt my 'taste'
and 'nose' has yet developed anywhere nearly as far as
it may...

hh ..or at least adds to background noise.... ;))

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/