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Date: 04 Feb 2007 02:19:45
From: I->Ian
Subject: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
Regarding a tool for underdosing:

I have a scraper that is shaped like an artists palette. It is sort of
like a French Curve and allows underdosing to various depths.

Had it for years and don't recall where it came from.

I can post a photo if you like.




 
Date: 07 Feb 2007 03:59:38
From: jmol121-groups@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
On Feb 6, 9:13 pm, Andy Schecter <schec...@remove.me.rochester.rr.com >
wrote:
> jim schulman wrote:
> > While this puck-dough is hard to knock out; it does seem to be immune
> > to channeling. I'm guessing it's so fluid, it seals cracks before they
> > develop.
>
> > In any case, twice after doing a series of low dose shots, and getting
> > Italian casual with the level and tamp, I got a spritzie circus when
> > going back to a higher dose.
>
> My experience, too. If you put say, 13-14g in an LM ridged basket (a low dose
> by non-Italian standards), you don't have to go through so much obsessive tamp
> rigole to get an even extraction.
> --
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Ah, that explains it. I thought i had just become better at tamping/
distribution overnight:)



 
Date: 06 Feb 2007 06:56:50
From: jmol121-groups@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
On Feb 4, 9:37 pm, jim schulman <jim_schul...@ameritech.net > wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2007 13:29:09 -0800, "gscace" <gregory.sc...@nist.gov> wrote:
>
>
>
> >For those who don't follow Coffeed.com, the discussion here is from a
> >thread on Coffeed by Jim and Andy that postulated that finer grind and
> >greater extraction fraction (towards the Illy published number of
> >around 25% as I recall without looking at coffeed) produced a sweeter
> >tasting shot.
>
> I have a paper up (alas in sore need of a rewrite) at
>
> >http://users.ameritech.net/jim_schulman/aspects_of_espresso_extractio...
>
> OK, back to hating Grossman


Tried this method (using about 13-14 g in a la zocco double basket
in my isomac Tea), and the flavor profile is definitely different. I'm
using a dark-ish roast, Doma's Carmela's.
One thing i noticed, in using this method is i end up with very soupy
pucks. Have you noticed this as well?



  
Date: 06 Feb 2007 18:24:46
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
On 6 Feb 2007 06:56:50 -0800, "jmol121-groups@yahoo.com"
<jmol121-groups@yahoo.com > wrote:

>Tried this method (using about 13-14 g in a la zocco double basket
>in my isomac Tea), and the flavor profile is definitely different. I'm
>using a dark-ish roast, Doma's Carmela's.
>One thing i noticed, in using this method is i end up with very soupy
>pucks. Have you noticed this as well?

Yes, the puck goes from the crumbly consistency of wet sand to a
doughy consistency that can be shaped. It's almost like a phase
change, since it seems to happen all at once when one goes below a
critical dosing level.

While this puck-dough is hard to knock out; it does seem to be immune
to channeling. I'm guessing it's so fluid, it seals cracks before they
develop.

In any case, twice after doing a series of low dose shots, and getting
Italian casual with the level and tamp, I got a spritzie circus when
going back to a higher dose.


   
Date: 06 Feb 2007 21:13:04
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
jim schulman wrote:
> While this puck-dough is hard to knock out; it does seem to be immune
> to channeling. I'm guessing it's so fluid, it seals cracks before they
> develop.
>
> In any case, twice after doing a series of low dose shots, and getting
> Italian casual with the level and tamp, I got a spritzie circus when
> going back to a higher dose.

My experience, too. If you put say, 13-14g in an LM ridged basket (a low dose
by non-Italian standards), you don't have to go through so much obsessive tamp
rigole to get an even extraction.
--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


 
Date: 04 Feb 2007 13:29:09
From: gscace
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
On Feb 4, 5:19 am, "I- >Ian" <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Regarding a tool for underdosing:
>
> I have a scraper that is shaped like an artists palette. It is sort of
> like a French Curve and allows underdosing to various depths.
>
> Had it for years and don't recall where it came from.
>
> I can post a photo if you like.


We have a couple of french curves at home and I thought of using
them. The whole scraper thing seems so clean and reproducible and I
don't understand why it's not more widely used. I was pleased to see
that some Aussies use the scheme. I'd thought of buying some thin
polycarbonate sheet and making myself some dedicated scrapers in a
variety of curves.

For those who don't follow Coffeed.com, the discussion here is from a
thread on Coffeed by Jim and Andy that postulated that finer grind and
greater extraction fraction (towards the Illy published number of
around 25% as I recall without looking at coffeed) produced a sweeter
tasting shot. Current methods of dosing using curved fingers etc
updose pretty much and don't work well with this scheme. Read coffeed
for mor info.

-Greg



  
Date: 06 Feb 2007 20:26:08
From: Jeffrey Pawlan
Subject: Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
gscace wrote:
>>Regarding a tool for underdosing:
>
> the discussion here is from a
> thread on Coffeed by Jim and Andy that postulated that finer grind and
> greater extraction fraction (towards the Illy published number of
> around 25% as I recall without looking at coffeed) produced a sweeter
> tasting shot.


I highly respect each of you yet I humbly disagree with your findings
and offer an alternative to try. My extensive experiments with tasting
consecutive shots produced with the same grinder, same beans, same well
controlled espresso brew temperature seem to point in the opposite
direction:

I find that a very slightly coarser grind and then a really serious
tamping procedure with definitely more weight of coffee in the PF leads
to a sweeter cup AND more crema. Also my pucks are so bone dry that it
takes real effort to knock them out. Alan (of Aeropress) weighed them
before and after and was astounded by how much coffee I was using and
also how little moisture was left in the puck.

I was led to this by two sources: Alan, the inventor of the aeropress,
demonstrated to me that using coarser coffee than my normal espresso
grind level in the aeropress led to less bitterness.

ty Curtis (Combustion Systems) who is also an expert roastmaster
showed me that using coarser coffee in the French Press brought out more
sweetness that I had ever experienced before in brewed coffee.


Best Regards,

Jeffrey Pawlan


   
Date: 06 Feb 2007 21:08:52
From: Jeffrey Pawlan
Subject: Re: Fingerstrike Dosing addendum
After reading Jim Schulman's paper, I want to append my last post with
an important point:

Jim was using a LM triple basket. I am using a Cimbali double basket.

Since I agree that Jim and Andy are on the right track by looking at the
extraction going from the top down and highly dependent on the geometry
and size of the PF basket, perhaps because my basket is shorter than
Jim's, I therefore require more coffee in it in order to produce the
same extraction results that Jim is seeing in his.

We also have different machines so possibly the pre-infusion time is
different. This too will definitely affect the extraction process.


Best Regards and thank you Jim and Andy for your great work.


Jeffrey Pawlan


    
Date: 06 Feb 2007 21:07:46
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Fingerstrike Dosing addendum
Jeffrey Pawlan wrote:
> thank you Jim and Andy for your great work.

Jim and I started out more or less collaborating on a project to measure
extraction percentages. But then Jim, being the wonderful
taster/barista/statistician/researcher than he is, took it in an exciting and
unexpected direction. I don't know if I yet understand everything Jim
concluded, but all the really original stuff comes from him.

So thanks for the thanks, but Jim deserves the credit.

Regards,
--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


  
Date: 04 Feb 2007 20:37:22
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
On 4 Feb 2007 13:29:09 -0800, "gscace" <gregory.scace@nist.gov > wrote:

>
>For those who don't follow Coffeed.com, the discussion here is from a
>thread on Coffeed by Jim and Andy that postulated that finer grind and
>greater extraction fraction (towards the Illy published number of
>around 25% as I recall without looking at coffeed) produced a sweeter
>tasting shot.

I have a paper up (alas in sore need of a rewrite) at

>http://users.ameritech.net/jim_schulman/aspects_of_espresso_extraction.htm

OK, back to hating Grossman


  
Date: 04 Feb 2007 22:58:41
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: To Greg Scace Re Coffeed : Fingerstrike Dosing = Overdosing ???
On 4 Feb 2007 13:29:09 -0800, "gscace" <gregory.scace@nist.gov > wrote:

>For those who don't follow Coffeed.com, the discussion here is from a
>thread on Coffeed by Jim and Andy that postulated that finer grind and
>greater extraction fraction (towards the Illy published number of
>around 25% as I recall without looking at coffeed) produced a sweeter
>tasting shot. Current methods of dosing using curved fingers etc
>updose pretty much and don't work well with this scheme. Read coffeed
>for mor info.

jim demonstrated this for felix and me at the party last weekend. even
with the ad hoc setup, there were enough interesting things in the cup
to warrant further playing/tasting. i don't know as i like the taste
*better*, but it was certainly interesting.

"get me out of my chair so i can DANCE!" -- maddie abandoning dinner
for the superbowl pre-game festivities.