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Date: 03 Dec 2006 10:57:27
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: To PID or not?
In my seemingly never ending upgrade process, this issue surfaced.

While I may end up with a machine that is either not PIDable or no one
offers a kit, there is the chance that I would end up with a box
eminently PIDable. And I might want to consider it.

Here's how I understand it, feel free to educate me.

If you have an HX machine that has both boiler and brew pressure gauges,
and if temp is controlled by the pressure, then what does the PID bring
to the table? Stability, tighter control of temp???

Also, I noticed in Daveb's site that the Andreja w/PID says something
about changing a mode. Why? I thought that the idea with an HX was
that the brew water was flash heated by the steam boiler water.

Also, on the Brewtus, they have a temp controller in Centigrade and I
see someone says that to change that to Farenheit, you would have to use
a PID, why? Isn't that temp controller on the Brewtus a PID, if not,
what the heck is it?




 
Date: 04 Jan 2007 05:27:11
From: daveb
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
yes, well we tried to change over to metric over 20 years ago.

sadly, that effort failed.

do european cars arrive here reading ONLY in Km/H? no.

pay $1,900 for a machine? it should read in the scale we use HERE.
or at least have selectable C / F
the brewtus II is no better.

My installs that go to Canada? customers can elect C (in tenths, if
they wish)

dave
www.hitechespresso.com
877 286 2833



 
Date: 02 Jan 2007 08:47:09
From: daveb
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
I certainly would not either! and I did not mean to imply that.

HB has more info on the performance of the AKO(?) unit in the B II

dave

Dan Bollinger wrote:
> > not all controllers are "pid'. there are many lesser controllers (read
> > cheaper) out there.
>
> In all fairness, many mfgrs. of PIDs also make high quality thermostats with
> adjustable deadbands, etc. While they generally are lower cost than PIDs, I
> wouldn't call an Omron or LOVE thermostat 'cheap.'
>
> Dan



 
Date: 02 Jan 2007 07:22:08
From: daveb
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
L:

not all controllers are "pid'. there are many lesser controllers (read
cheaper) out there. mebbe the B I / II display can be set to read F?
-- dunno.

as an aside, the new version of the la spaz vivaldi is STILL
displaying in C with lights -- I guess the Italians are just pigheaded.
right or wrong, the USA -- their biggest ket -- is an "F" country,
NOT "C"

There are 2 ways to monitor / control pressure in a boiler -- any
boiler --
1) pressure(stat)
OR
2) thermo(stat)



I have noticed and mentioned in comments here that most of my
customers / prospects want a shot or two in the AM and then walk away.
they want to hit that shot <dead nuts on > when they wake up -- no
"purging". That is the lower temp mode I mention -- the entire machine
soaks at BREW temp, ready to brew coffee without discarding water.
They want steam? jack up the setting to 250 F or so and in about 1
minute -- steam power.

Then there is the issue of reliability.

Dave
877 286 2833



>
> Here's how I understand it, feel free to educate me.
>
> If you have an HX machine that has both boiler and brew pressure gauges,
> and if temp is controlled by the pressure, then what does the PID bring
> to the table? Stability, tighter control of temp???
>
> Also, I noticed in Daveb's site that the Andreja w/PID says something
> about changing a mode. Why? I thought that the idea with an HX was
> that the brew water was flash heated by the steam boiler water.
>
> Also, on the Brewtus, they have a temp controller in Centigrade and I
> see someone says that to change that to Farenheit, you would have to use
> a PID, why? Isn't that temp controller on the Brewtus a PID, if not,
> what the heck is it?



  
Date: 04 Jan 2007 13:20:20
From: Coffee Contact
Subject: Re: To PID or not?

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167751328.169443.158110@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> as an aside, the new version of the la spaz vivaldi is STILL
> displaying in C with lights -- I guess the Italians are just pigheaded.
> right or wrong, the USA -- their biggest ket -- is an "F" country,
> NOT "C"

Considering that almost every country in the world now uses the 'C' system
(instead of the cumbersome 'F' system)
it seems to me that it is not the Italians who are being 'pigheaded'.

Terry M




  
Date: 02 Jan 2007 11:26:02
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
> not all controllers are "pid'. there are many lesser controllers (read
> cheaper) out there.

In all fairness, many mfgrs. of PIDs also make high quality thermostats with
adjustable deadbands, etc. While they generally are lower cost than PIDs, I
wouldn't call an Omron or LOVE thermostat 'cheap.'

Dan



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 09:59:31
From: daveb
Subject: To PID
Harmon:
My wife had the EXACT same loathing of the Sirai clacking.
"What's THAT!! Does that have to be on??"



Dave



Robert Harmon wrote:
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:4thpk9F1280tcU1@mid.individual.net:
>
> > "Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote in message
> > news:lloydparsons-CD60C5.22110203122006@individual.net...
> >> >
> >> You've cleared some things up. I asked because of the change in
> >> equipment, I thought in for a penny, in for a pound as they say, and
> >> thought about getting a machine w/PID already installed. Of course,
> >> if I get the Izzo, PID is not currently an option.
> >
> > I probably have more experience in PIDing HX machines than anyone
> > else, at least more than anyone else when you include Scace
> > thermometry done to study what the result is of doing so. Although I
> > think the approach has merit, I can think of only 3 valid reasons for
> > PIDing a heat exchanger:
> >
> > (1) PIDs are more reliable than the el cheapo pressurestats one finds
> > nowadays in almost all heat exchanger machines, or at least heat
> > exchanger machines sold for prices home users can afford. The
> > standard Mater and CEME pressurestats have a service life of 2 years
> > or less and are intended to be chucked after that. A PID is or has
> > the potential to be as durable as any good integrated circuit; after
> > the early failure rate you can expect them to last quite a while. The
> > better controllers are used in industrial settings where frequent
> > failure would not be tolerated.
> >
> > (2) PIDs offer the ability to change boiler and hence brew temperature
> > on a whim, whereas pressurestats tend to be buried in nearly
> > inaccessible interior machine locations which make adjusting a huge
> > PITA, plus adjustments are not very precise. These factors mean that
> > most of the time you will set your p-stat setting and "forget it."
> > Any shot temperature control is going to have to come from such
> > methods as differential flushing, "water dance," etc. Being able to
> > control the boiler temperature precisely adds another way of
> > controlling shot temperature.
> >
> > (3) PIDs offer the POTENTIAL of finding a regimen for tight
> > temperature control of straight shots on an HX machine. I say
> > "potential" because with trial and error I have found such a regimen
> > that works with my machines, but I don't know if you will be able to
> > find one with yours. Machine designs vary and what has worked for me
> > will almost certainly NOT work for you, however with some effort I
> > think you can probably find a routine that will give you better fine
> > temperature control than you could get with your pressurestat.
> >
> > If you were to decide to PID your machine at a later time, I would
> > encourage you to do it yourself. You will discover skills you did not
> > think that you had, and in the process will learn a lot about how your
> > machine functions and how to work on it. Anyone who has ever done one
> > of these installs and who cares about how it looks will tell you that
> > 95% of your effort will be spent on thinking through the installation
> > and procuring supplies such as an appropriate project box. Only after
> > you have put in the hours doing this can you do a good installation,
> > but after doing so you will gain a lot of well earned confidence in
> > your own ability to work on your machine. This is invaluable.
> >
> > ken
> >
> >
> >
> Howdy Ken!
> You've presented three VERY solid reasons to PID the HX equipped
> machines, but there is another compelling reason to do the conversion:
> Silence Is Golden!
>
> The tstat (Sirai is typical in better home machine & pretty much standard
> in pro machines) makes a lot of noise as the three contacts open and
> close in response to boiler temps.
>
> After switching to a PID on my Bunn ES-1A my wife (AKA "the ol' ball &
> chain ;)" ) now has no objections to having the machine sitting on HER
> counter top. Before the switch the loud clicks drove her nuts (admittedly
> a short trip) because the machine was located only ten feet behind her
> favorite easy chair.
>
> Robert (Always seeking to promote domestic tranquility.) Harmon
> --
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
> Remove "Z" to reply via email.



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 04:56:16
From: daveb
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
OK if you are not rosting your own, get some good coffee from
Intelligentsia, say.

Then try to learn a stock HX machine -- very difficult to get
consistency, especially in a home environment.

then try say -- a 'pid' silvia or Alexia, etc.

The temp you start with is CONSISTENT. Making it FAR easier to produce
great shots, with less waste of time coffee and money, period.

I did not invent the 'pid' espresso concept, I just made it better.

Dave



  
Date: 04 Dec 2006 17:49:53
From: Steve
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
On 4 Dec 2006 04:56:16 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>I did not invent the 'pid' espresso concept, I just made it better.
Bullshit.


 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 04:49:54
From: daveb
Subject: Re: To PID or not?

Lloyd Parsons wrote:

> Here's how I understand it, feel free to educate me.
>
> If you have an HX machine that has both boiler and brew pressure gauges,
> and if temp is controlled by the pressure, then what does the PID bring
> to the table? Stability, tighter control of temp???

1) Control -- the Temp controls the pressure, the dials are basically
decorative now.

2) Dual mode -- A) tune your machine to be a large single boiler unit
-- like a deluxe "PID" Silvia say -- totally optimized for producing
GREAT espressos. B) Switch back in a flash to full HX mode -- with
pressures YOU choose in, typically, 75 SECONDS.

3) Reliability -- No mechanicals, period.

4) NO ANNOYING clicking

I've performed the 'pid' mod on over a dozen machines with an Anita and
a Vetrano on the bench now, and an Andreja enroute. ~~~ Owners are ONE
HUNDRED PERCENT delighted! Especially if they owned a stock HX before
and all the pain that entails. Inlcuding 2 customers who are having
their second machine done for their summer residence (modded: Isomacs,
Pasquinis, Quick Mill)

>
> Also, I noticed in Daveb's site that the Andreja w/PID says something
> about changing a mode. Why? I thought that the idea with an HX was
> that the brew water was flash heated by the steam boiler water.

Yes, that is true, but I noticed in speaking with DOZENS of customers
and prospects over the past year that MOST (not all) want to make a
consistent shot, first thing in the AM, and could not care less about
milk! BUT they want to be able to entertain now and then, and make a
bunch of milk drinks in a reasonable time. -- BAM!! Now they can do
BOTH.

>
> Also, on the Brewtus, they have a temp controller in Centigrade and I
> see someone says that to change that to Farenheit,

Why the Italians are still stubbornly producing shit that reads in C
when they are shipping to the land of F I do not know -- You can past a
conversion table to the side I guess.

". . . you would have to use
> a PID, why? Isn't that temp controller on the Brewtus a PID, if not,
> what the heck is it?

AFAIK, the brutus has not 'pid' but something simpler / cheaper. If
they were using a real 'pid' IMHO, they would miss the price point by a
mile.


Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
a business -- not a hobby



 
Date: 04 Dec 2006 04:48:56
From: daveb
Subject: Re: To PID or not?

Lloyd Parsons wrote:
Of course, if
> I get the Izzo, PID is not currently an option.

It may be soon, Lloyd.

Dave



 
Date: 03 Dec 2006 20:51:27
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-DABE98.10572703122006@individual.net...
> In my seemingly never ending upgrade process, this issue surfaced.
>
<snip >

> If you have an HX machine that has both boiler and brew pressure gauges,
> and if temp is controlled by the pressure, then what does the PID bring
> to the table? Stability, tighter control of temp???
>
><snip>

I think we are obcessing a bit too much about unimportant things. Buy
yourself a machine that suits your needs in the stock configuration, as it
came out of the factory. Learn basic espressomaking and coffee appreciation
skills. Consider expanding your horizons by giving home roasting a whirl
unless you live near a first rate roaster or living circumstances preclude
it.

After you have covered these bases you can consider branching out into the
minutia, such as PIDs.

A PID is not going to change the basic characteristics of an espresso
machine, although it might make an incremental difference around the edges.
If you are going to make priily milk drinks, you will find that a heat
exchanger at any of several price points will most likely be both an
economical and good choice. If you don't expect to make milk drinks very
often and never very many of them in one sitting, then a single boiler
machine will likely fit your needs.

It is easy to become obcessed with equipment, but in the end, assuming a
reasonably competent setup, the quality of the beverages you produce will
depend upon the quality and freshness of the coffee you use and your skill
in making it into a beverage. I have done a whole lot of hacking of my two
commercial heat exchanger machines, including PID installation in both, but
in all honesty everything is dwarfed by which beans I buy and how much skill
I put into roasting them.

ken




  
Date: 03 Dec 2006 22:11:02
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
In article <4thk9iFv111nU1@mid.individual.net >,
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

> "Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:lloydparsons-DABE98.10572703122006@individual.net...
> > In my seemingly never ending upgrade process, this issue surfaced.
> >
> <snip>
>
> > If you have an HX machine that has both boiler and brew pressure gauges,
> > and if temp is controlled by the pressure, then what does the PID bring
> > to the table? Stability, tighter control of temp???
> >
> ><snip>
>
> I think we are obcessing a bit too much about unimportant things. Buy
> yourself a machine that suits your needs in the stock configuration, as it
> came out of the factory. Learn basic espressomaking and coffee appreciation
> skills. Consider expanding your horizons by giving home roasting a whirl
> unless you live near a first rate roaster or living circumstances preclude
> it.
>
> After you have covered these bases you can consider branching out into the
> minutia, such as PIDs.
>
> A PID is not going to change the basic characteristics of an espresso
> machine, although it might make an incremental difference around the edges.
> If you are going to make priily milk drinks, you will find that a heat
> exchanger at any of several price points will most likely be both an
> economical and good choice. If you don't expect to make milk drinks very
> often and never very many of them in one sitting, then a single boiler
> machine will likely fit your needs.
>
> It is easy to become obcessed with equipment, but in the end, assuming a
> reasonably competent setup, the quality of the beverages you produce will
> depend upon the quality and freshness of the coffee you use and your skill
> in making it into a beverage. I have done a whole lot of hacking of my two
> commercial heat exchanger machines, including PID installation in both, but
> in all honesty everything is dwarfed by which beans I buy and how much skill
> I put into roasting them.
>
> ken

Thanks.

I've got a Silvia now, roast my own and have Gaggia MDF grinder.

Next week, I'll be changing the brewer and grinder. I have a Mazzer
Super Jolly coming in, and I will be ordering the brewer. Most likely a
Izzo Alex from Chris Coffee.

My Silvia is not PIDed and I pull some awesome shots, not quite god
shots, but awesome nevertheless. Espresso is not my main drink though.

You've cleared some things up. I asked because of the change in
equipment, I thought in for a penny, in for a pound as they say, and
thought about getting a machine w/PID already installed. Of course, if
I get the Izzo, PID is not currently an option.


   
Date: 03 Dec 2006 22:22:31
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-CD60C5.22110203122006@individual.net...
> >
> You've cleared some things up. I asked because of the change in
> equipment, I thought in for a penny, in for a pound as they say, and
> thought about getting a machine w/PID already installed. Of course, if
> I get the Izzo, PID is not currently an option.

I probably have more experience in PIDing HX machines than anyone else, at
least more than anyone else when you include Scace thermometry done to study
what the result is of doing so. Although I think the approach has merit, I
can think of only 3 valid reasons for PIDing a heat exchanger:

(1) PIDs are more reliable than the el cheapo pressurestats one finds
nowadays in almost all heat exchanger machines, or at least heat exchanger
machines sold for prices home users can afford. The standard Mater and CEME
pressurestats have a service life of 2 years or less and are intended to be
chucked after that. A PID is or has the potential to be as durable as any
good integrated circuit; after the early failure rate you can expect them to
last quite a while. The better controllers are used in industrial settings
where frequent failure would not be tolerated.

(2) PIDs offer the ability to change boiler and hence brew temperature on a
whim, whereas pressurestats tend to be buried in nearly inaccessible
interior machine locations which make adjusting a huge PITA, plus
adjustments are not very precise. These factors mean that most of the time
you will set your p-stat setting and "forget it." Any shot temperature
control is going to have to come from such methods as differential flushing,
"water dance," etc. Being able to control the boiler temperature precisely
adds another way of controlling shot temperature.

(3) PIDs offer the POTENTIAL of finding a regimen for tight temperature
control of straight shots on an HX machine. I say "potential" because with
trial and error I have found such a regimen that works with my machines, but
I don't know if you will be able to find one with yours. Machine designs
vary and what has worked for me will almost certainly NOT work for you,
however with some effort I think you can probably find a routine that will
give you better fine temperature control than you could get with your
pressurestat.

If you were to decide to PID your machine at a later time, I would encourage
you to do it yourself. You will discover skills you did not think that you
had, and in the process will learn a lot about how your machine functions
and how to work on it. Anyone who has ever done one of these installs and
who cares about how it looks will tell you that 95% of your effort will be
spent on thinking through the installation and procuring supplies such as an
appropriate project box. Only after you have put in the hours doing this
can you do a good installation, but after doing so you will gain a lot of
well earned confidence in your own ability to work on your machine. This is
invaluable.

ken




    
Date: 04 Dec 2006 15:03:44
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in
news:4thpk9F1280tcU1@mid.individual.net:

> "Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:lloydparsons-CD60C5.22110203122006@individual.net...
>> >
>> You've cleared some things up. I asked because of the change in
>> equipment, I thought in for a penny, in for a pound as they say, and
>> thought about getting a machine w/PID already installed. Of course,
>> if I get the Izzo, PID is not currently an option.
>
> I probably have more experience in PIDing HX machines than anyone
> else, at least more than anyone else when you include Scace
> thermometry done to study what the result is of doing so. Although I
> think the approach has merit, I can think of only 3 valid reasons for
> PIDing a heat exchanger:
>
> (1) PIDs are more reliable than the el cheapo pressurestats one finds
> nowadays in almost all heat exchanger machines, or at least heat
> exchanger machines sold for prices home users can afford. The
> standard Mater and CEME pressurestats have a service life of 2 years
> or less and are intended to be chucked after that. A PID is or has
> the potential to be as durable as any good integrated circuit; after
> the early failure rate you can expect them to last quite a while. The
> better controllers are used in industrial settings where frequent
> failure would not be tolerated.
>
> (2) PIDs offer the ability to change boiler and hence brew temperature
> on a whim, whereas pressurestats tend to be buried in nearly
> inaccessible interior machine locations which make adjusting a huge
> PITA, plus adjustments are not very precise. These factors mean that
> most of the time you will set your p-stat setting and "forget it."
> Any shot temperature control is going to have to come from such
> methods as differential flushing, "water dance," etc. Being able to
> control the boiler temperature precisely adds another way of
> controlling shot temperature.
>
> (3) PIDs offer the POTENTIAL of finding a regimen for tight
> temperature control of straight shots on an HX machine. I say
> "potential" because with trial and error I have found such a regimen
> that works with my machines, but I don't know if you will be able to
> find one with yours. Machine designs vary and what has worked for me
> will almost certainly NOT work for you, however with some effort I
> think you can probably find a routine that will give you better fine
> temperature control than you could get with your pressurestat.
>
> If you were to decide to PID your machine at a later time, I would
> encourage you to do it yourself. You will discover skills you did not
> think that you had, and in the process will learn a lot about how your
> machine functions and how to work on it. Anyone who has ever done one
> of these installs and who cares about how it looks will tell you that
> 95% of your effort will be spent on thinking through the installation
> and procuring supplies such as an appropriate project box. Only after
> you have put in the hours doing this can you do a good installation,
> but after doing so you will gain a lot of well earned confidence in
> your own ability to work on your machine. This is invaluable.
>
> ken
>
>
>
Howdy Ken!
You've presented three VERY solid reasons to PID the HX equipped
machines, but there is another compelling reason to do the conversion:
Silence Is Golden!

The tstat (Sirai is typical in better home machine & pretty much standard
in pro machines) makes a lot of noise as the three contacts open and
close in response to boiler temps.

After switching to a PID on my Bunn ES-1A my wife (AKA "the ol' ball &
chain ;)" ) now has no objections to having the machine sitting on HER
counter top. Before the switch the loud clicks drove her nuts (admittedly
a short trip) because the machine was located only ten feet behind her
favorite easy chair.

Robert (Always seeking to promote domestic tranquility.) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.


 
Date: 03 Dec 2006 16:16:27
From: mattw
Subject: Re: To PID or not?
I bought my Expobar Pulser with a PID on it and the main thing it
allowed was a change in the temp for whatever reason you decided (for
me, mainly because I was a tinkerer). It was also kinda neat to always
know what the temp was, just for the geekiness. I have no idea if it
helped with stability (it had a PID when I bought it), but is fun, if
nothing else.

I am now selling the Expobar - partly to upgrade and partly because I
became to fidgitey with it (and am trying to be more 'zen' with the art
of espresso making).

/mw


Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> In my seemingly never ending upgrade process, this issue surfaced.
>
> While I may end up with a machine that is either not PIDable or no one
> offers a kit, there is the chance that I would end up with a box
> eminently PIDable. And I might want to consider it.
>
> Here's how I understand it, feel free to educate me.
>
> If you have an HX machine that has both boiler and brew pressure gauges,
> and if temp is controlled by the pressure, then what does the PID bring
> to the table? Stability, tighter control of temp???
>
> Also, I noticed in Daveb's site that the Andreja w/PID says something
> about changing a mode. Why? I thought that the idea with an HX was
> that the brew water was flash heated by the steam boiler water.
>
> Also, on the Brewtus, they have a temp controller in Centigrade and I
> see someone says that to change that to Farenheit, you would have to use
> a PID, why? Isn't that temp controller on the Brewtus a PID, if not,
> what the heck is it?