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Date: 17 Feb 2007 23:01:35
From: Rusty James
Subject: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

Rusty




 
Date: 22 Feb 2007 19:06:40
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 22, 9:40 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> What things are commonly considered as and what they really are are often 2
> different things. Visually the lever that operates the (invisible) piston
> dominates the appearance of the Europiccola and so they are known as "lever
> machines". In reality there are two basic types of espresso machine (only
> one of which makes "true" espresso) - steam driven machines that brew at a
> little over 1 bar of pressure and machines where the source of pressure for
> extraction is not steam but mechanically created pressure which usually brew
> at around 9 bar. A mechanical device that creates pressure is called a
> "pump", so while Pavonis are not commonly known as pump machines, that's in
> fact what they are. The lever could just as well have been called the "pump
> handle".
>
> "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:eSqDh.269$P47.205@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> If Europiccolas are, in
>
> > fact, commonly considered to be "pump machines", then I have been
> > educated. So far I've seen no evidence of that. But I do wait with an
> > open mind . . .
>
> > --
> > Alan

'Jack'!

responding only feeds his obsession.

d



 
Date: 21 Feb 2007 17:18:48
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 21, 7:48 pm, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "daveb" wrote
>
>
>
> > On Feb 21, 6:59 am, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Sheldon T. Hall wrote
>
> >> > Rusty James
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> >> >>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>
> >> > It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
> >> > convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
> >> > Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
> >> > the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
> >> > cup of coffee.
>
> >> > The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
> >> > forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
> >> > get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
> >> > atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
> >> > with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
> >> > and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>
> >> > -Shel
>
> >> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever
> >> machine
> >> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their ilk
> >> to
> >> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>
> >> --
> >> Alan
>
> > uh
> > a lever IS a pump, last I looked.
>
> > dave
>
> And where was it that you last looked and found THAT piece of
> misinformation? A lever may be used in conjunction with a piston in order
> to achieve the action of a pump, but it does not follow that a lever IS a
> pump, and I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with
> the statement that a Europiccola "uses a pump to generate the required
> pressure" or that a Europiccola would be classified as a "pump machine".
>
> "lever: 1 a : a bar used for prying or dislodging something b : an inducing
> or compelling force : TOOL <use food as a political lever -- Time>
> 2 a : a rigid piece that transmits and modifies force or motion when forces
> are applied at two points and it turns about a third; specifically : a rigid
> bar used to exert a pressure or sustain a weight at one point of its length
> by the application of a force at a second and turning at a third on a
> fulcrum b : a projecting piece by which a mechanism is operated or
> adjusted." (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>
> "pump: a device that raises, transfers, delivers, or compresses fluids or
> that attenuates gases especially by suction or pressure or both."
> (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>
> --
> Alan

We are talking here in the CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO MACHINES "alan"

please go back to annoying the folks on:
'alt.english.usage'
and / or
'alt.usage.english' --

would you?

thanx

dave



  
Date: 22 Feb 2007 02:30:10
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE

"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1172107128.345116.118190@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 21, 7:48 pm, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "daveb" wrote
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 21, 6:59 am, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> "Sheldon T. Hall wrote
>>
>> >> > Rusty James
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> >>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
>> >> >>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>>
>> >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>>
>> >> > It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just
>> >> > a
>> >> > convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
>> >> > Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
>> >> > the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter,
>> >> > burnt-tasting
>> >> > cup of coffee.
>>
>> >> > The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
>> >> > forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order
>> >> > to
>> >> > get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
>> >> > atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
>> >> > with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above
>> >> > boiling,
>> >> > and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>>
>> >> > -Shel
>>
>> >> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever
>> >> machine
>> >> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their
>> >> ilk
>> >> to
>> >> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Alan
>>
>> > uh
>> > a lever IS a pump, last I looked.
>>
>> > dave
>>
>> And where was it that you last looked and found THAT piece of
>> misinformation? A lever may be used in conjunction with a piston in
>> order
>> to achieve the action of a pump, but it does not follow that a lever IS a
>> pump, and I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with
>> the statement that a Europiccola "uses a pump to generate the required
>> pressure" or that a Europiccola would be classified as a "pump machine".
>>
>> "lever: 1 a : a bar used for prying or dislodging something b : an
>> inducing
>> or compelling force : TOOL <use food as a political lever -- Time>
>> 2 a : a rigid piece that transmits and modifies force or motion when
>> forces
>> are applied at two points and it turns about a third; specifically : a
>> rigid
>> bar used to exert a pressure or sustain a weight at one point of its
>> length
>> by the application of a force at a second and turning at a third on a
>> fulcrum b : a projecting piece by which a mechanism is operated or
>> adjusted." (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>>
>> "pump: a device that raises, transfers, delivers, or compresses fluids or
>> that attenuates gases especially by suction or pressure or both."
>> (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>>
>> --
>> Alan
>
> We are talking here in the CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO MACHINES "alan"
>
> please go back to annoying the folks on:
> 'alt.english.usage'
> and / or
> 'alt.usage.english' --
>
> would you?
>
> thanx
>
> dave

Uh ---- (to use one of your favorite introductory reks), I'm aware that
we're talking here in the CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO MACHINES, daveb ----- and
that's why I'd said "I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to
agree with the statement that a Europiccola 'uses a pump to generate the
required pressure' or that a Europiccola would be classified as a 'pump
machine'."

But perhaps I'm wrong . . . perhaps you'd be perfectly correct in referring
to a Europiccola as a "pump machine" IN THE CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO MACHINES.

But I doubt it.

P.S. While you seem to have been very easily annoyed, that was not my
intention.
--
Alan



   
Date: 21 Feb 2007 22:41:59
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Are you some kind of troll or are you really that dumb? A lever by itself
does nothing - it has to perform some action and in the context of an
espresso machine the action the lever performs is to move a piston in a
cylinder in order to pump water thru the puck. It is a lever operated pump.

"*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Se7Dh.98$BE2.90@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1172107128.345116.118190@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 21, 7:48 pm, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> "daveb" wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Feb 21, 6:59 am, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> "Sheldon T. Hall wrote
>>>
>>> >> > Rusty James
>>> >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable?
>>> >> >>What
>>> >> >>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>>>
>>> >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>>>
>>> >> > It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just
>>> >> > a
>>> >> > convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
>>> >> > Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they
>>> >> > get
>>> >> > the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter,
>>> >> > burnt-tasting
>>> >> > cup of coffee.
>>>
>>> >> > The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e.
>>> >> > it
>>> >> > forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
>>> >> > atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make
>>> >> > coffee
>>> >> > with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above
>>> >> > boiling,
>>> >> > and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>>>
>>> >> > -Shel
>>>
>>> >> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever
>>> >> machine
>>> >> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their
>>> >> ilk
>>> >> to
>>> >> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>>>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Alan
>>>
>>> > uh
>>> > a lever IS a pump, last I looked.
>>>
>>> > dave
>>>
>>> And where was it that you last looked and found THAT piece of
>>> misinformation? A lever may be used in conjunction with a piston in
>>> order
>>> to achieve the action of a pump, but it does not follow that a lever IS
>>> a
>>> pump, and I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree
>>> with
>>> the statement that a Europiccola "uses a pump to generate the required
>>> pressure" or that a Europiccola would be classified as a "pump
>>> machine".
>>>
>>> "lever: 1 a : a bar used for prying or dislodging something b : an
>>> inducing
>>> or compelling force : TOOL <use food as a political lever -- Time>
>>> 2 a : a rigid piece that transmits and modifies force or motion when
>>> forces
>>> are applied at two points and it turns about a third; specifically : a
>>> rigid
>>> bar used to exert a pressure or sustain a weight at one point of its
>>> length
>>> by the application of a force at a second and turning at a third on a
>>> fulcrum b : a projecting piece by which a mechanism is operated or
>>> adjusted." (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>>>
>>> "pump: a device that raises, transfers, delivers, or compresses fluids
>>> or
>>> that attenuates gases especially by suction or pressure or both."
>>> (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alan
>>
>> We are talking here in the CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO MACHINES "alan"
>>
>> please go back to annoying the folks on:
>> 'alt.english.usage'
>> and / or
>> 'alt.usage.english' --
>>
>> would you?
>>
>> thanx
>>
>> dave
>
> Uh ---- (to use one of your favorite introductory reks), I'm aware that
> we're talking here in the CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO MACHINES, daveb ----- and
> that's why I'd said "I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to
> agree with the statement that a Europiccola 'uses a pump to generate the
> required pressure' or that a Europiccola would be classified as a 'pump
> machine'."
>
> But perhaps I'm wrong . . . perhaps you'd be perfectly correct in
> referring to a Europiccola as a "pump machine" IN THE CONTEXT OF ESPRESSO
> MACHINES.
>
> But I doubt it.
>
> P.S. While you seem to have been very easily annoyed, that was not my
> intention.
> --
> Alan
>




    
Date: 22 Feb 2007 16:49:05
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE

"Jack Denver"
> Are you some kind of troll or are you really that dumb? A lever by
> itself does nothing - it has to perform some action and in the context of
> an espresso machine the action the lever performs is to move a piston in a
> cylinder in order to pump water thru the puck. It is a lever operated
> pump.

No, not some kind of troll, but perhaps I AM dumb enough to engage in a
discussion with daveb.

Are you some kind of arrogant snot or does it just seem that way because
you've willfully ignored the point that I was making regarding daveb's
rather shaky assertions?

daveb asserted that a lever was a pump.
daveb asserted that, therefore, a Europiccola was considered a "pump
machine".

For reasons that should have been obvious, I disagreed and noted also that I
felt he'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with him that a
Europiccola was classified as a "pump machine". If Europiccolas are, in
fact, commonly considered to be "pump machines", then I have been educated.
So far I've seen no evidence of that. But I do wait with an open mind . . .

--
Alan

A: Because it runs counter to the normal pattern of communication.
Q: Why is it a bad idea to top-post?



     
Date: 22 Feb 2007 21:40:04
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
What things are commonly considered as and what they really are are often 2
different things. Visually the lever that operates the (invisible) piston
dominates the appearance of the Europiccola and so they are known as "lever
machines". In reality there are two basic types of espresso machine (only
one of which makes "true" espresso) - steam driven machines that brew at a
little over 1 bar of pressure and machines where the source of pressure for
extraction is not steam but mechanically created pressure which usually brew
at around 9 bar. A mechanical device that creates pressure is called a
"pump", so while Pavonis are not commonly known as pump machines, that's in
fact what they are. The lever could just as well have been called the "pump
handle".



"*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:eSqDh.269$P47.205@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
If Europiccolas are, in
> fact, commonly considered to be "pump machines", then I have been
> educated. So far I've seen no evidence of that. But I do wait with an
> open mind . . .
>
> --
> Alan
>




 
Date: 21 Feb 2007 17:14:09
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 21, 7:48 pm, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "daveb" wrote
>
>
>
> > On Feb 21, 6:59 am, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> "Sheldon T. Hall wrote
>
> >> > Rusty James
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> >> >>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>
> >> > It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
> >> > convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
> >> > Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
> >> > the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
> >> > cup of coffee.
>
> >> > The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
> >> > forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
> >> > get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
> >> > atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
> >> > with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
> >> > and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>
> >> > -Shel
>
> >> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever
> >> machine
> >> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their ilk
> >> to
> >> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>
> >> --
> >> Alan
>
> > uh
> > a lever IS a pump, last I looked.
>
> > dave
>
> And where was it that you last looked and found THAT piece of
> misinformation? A lever may be used in conjunction with a piston in order
> to achieve the action of a pump, but it does not follow that a lever IS a
> pump, and I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with
> the statement that a Europiccola "uses a pump to generate the required
> pressure" or that a Europiccola would be classified as a "pump machine".
>
> "lever: 1 a : a bar used for prying or dislodging something b : an inducing
> or compelling force : TOOL <use food as a political lever -- Time>
> 2 a : a rigid piece that transmits and modifies force or motion when forces
> are applied at two points and it turns about a third; specifically : a rigid
> bar used to exert a pressure or sustain a weight at one point of its length
> by the application of a force at a second and turning at a third on a
> fulcrum b : a projecting piece by which a mechanism is operated or
> adjusted." (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>
> "pump: a device that raises, transfers, delivers, or compresses fluids or
> that attenuates gases especially by suction or pressure or both."
> (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)
>
> --
> Alan

wow. thanx for the education.
BTW, you must be having a VERY slow day.




 
Date: 21 Feb 2007 09:07:43
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 21, 6:59 am, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL" <aqua...@tandem.artell.net> wrote in messagenews:lq1lt2l40p81dia5hl80lu6rt7rppjtppt@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:01:35 -0500, Rusty James
> > <ferrante276-rustyja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> >>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>
> > It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
> > convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
> > Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
> > the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
> > cup of coffee.
>
> > The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
> > forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
> > get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
> > atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
> > with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
> > and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>
> > -Shel
>
> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever machine
> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their ilk to
> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>
> --
> Alan

uh
a lever IS a pump, last I looked.

dave



  
Date: 22 Feb 2007 00:48:41
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE

"daveb" wrote
> On Feb 21, 6:59 am, "*alan*" <in_flagra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "Sheldon T. Hall wrote
>>
>>
>> > Rusty James
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
>> >>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>>
>> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>>
>> > It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
>> > convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
>> > Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
>> > the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
>> > cup of coffee.
>>
>> > The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
>> > forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
>> > get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
>> > atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
>> > with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
>> > and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>>
>> > -Shel
>>
>> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever
>> machine
>> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their ilk
>> to
>> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>>
>> --
>> Alan
>
> uh
> a lever IS a pump, last I looked.
>
> dave

And where was it that you last looked and found THAT piece of
misinformation? A lever may be used in conjunction with a piston in order
to achieve the action of a pump, but it does not follow that a lever IS a
pump, and I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with
the statement that a Europiccola "uses a pump to generate the required
pressure" or that a Europiccola would be classified as a "pump machine".

"lever: 1 a : a bar used for prying or dislodging something b : an inducing
or compelling force : TOOL <use food as a political lever -- Time >
2 a : a rigid piece that transmits and modifies force or motion when forces
are applied at two points and it turns about a third; specifically : a rigid
bar used to exert a pressure or sustain a weight at one point of its length
by the application of a force at a second and turning at a third on a
fulcrum b : a projecting piece by which a mechanism is operated or
adjusted." (Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)

"pump: a device that raises, transfers, delivers, or compresses fluids or
that attenuates gases especially by suction or pressure or both."
(Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)

--
Alan



   
Date: 21 Feb 2007 20:25:19
From: sprsso
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Sounds like a piston to me, at least in the espresso machines I've
worked on. And the lever water pump on my grandparents' farm. And
sometimes my digestive tract....al



>"pump: a device that raises, transfers, delivers, or compresses fluids or
>that attenuates gases especially by suction or pressure or both."
>(Merriam-Webster 10th edition, online)



 
Date: 20 Feb 2007 09:27:30
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 20, 11:53 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> Undoubtedly a collectible. For the $400 or so you would pay for this, you
> could buy a "real" espresso machine with a pump, etc. If this device did
> not have a strong decorative/collectible value, as a used coffee brewing
> device it would sell for maybe $20.to $50.. seach ebay for "Vesuviana" which
> is a similar device but not collectible.
>
> "Rusty James" <ferrante276-rustyja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:pojft29aerso6l0btcc3gb3gbnfa27bilk@4ax.com...
>
> > Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> > would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>
> > Rusty

this is not an "espresso machine" as it is now commonly understood,
but is an interesting collectible.


for values on this thing, also review recently "completed auctions"

d



 
Date: 20 Feb 2007 11:53:51
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Undoubtedly a collectible. For the $400 or so you would pay for this, you
could buy a "real" espresso machine with a pump, etc. If this device did
not have a strong decorative/collectible value, as a used coffee brewing
device it would sell for maybe $20.to $50.. seach ebay for "Vesuviana" which
is a similar device but not collectible.



"Rusty James" <ferrante276-rustyjames@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:pojft29aerso6l0btcc3gb3gbnfa27bilk@4ax.com...
> Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
>
> Rusty
>




 
Date: 20 Feb 2007 01:42:40
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 20, 12:42 am, Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
<aqua...@tandem.artell.net > wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:01:35 -0500, Rusty James
>
> <ferrante276-rustyja...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> >would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>
> It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
> convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
> Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
> the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
> cup of coffee.
>
> The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
> forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
> get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
> atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
> with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
> and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>
> -Shel

yeah OK, but it is the cutest steam toy ever!



  
Date: 25 Feb 2007 15:36:13
From: Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On 20 Feb 2007 01:42:40 -0800, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Feb 20, 12:42 am, Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
><aqua...@tandem.artell.net> wrote:
>>
>> The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
>> forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
>> get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
>> atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
>> with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
>> and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>>
>> -Shel
>
>yeah OK, but it is the cutest steam toy ever!

No argument there!

-Shel




 
Date: 19 Feb 2007 21:42:09
From: Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:01:35 -0500, Rusty James
<ferrante276-rustyjames@yahoo.com > wrote:

>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
cup of coffee.

The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
and use a pump to generate the required pressure.

-Shel



  
Date: 21 Feb 2007 11:59:32
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE

"Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL" <aquaman@tandem.artell.net > wrote in message
news:lq1lt2l40p81dia5hl80lu6rt7rppjtppt@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:01:35 -0500, Rusty James
> <ferrante276-rustyjames@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
>>would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
>
> It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
> convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
> Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
> the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
> cup of coffee.
>
> The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
> forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
> get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
> atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
> with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
> and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>
> -Shel

Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever machine
(spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their ilk to
be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .

--
Alan



   
Date: 21 Feb 2007 09:51:58
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
No, a lever is a type of hand operated pump and certainly makes "real"
espresso. They have certain limitations, but still fit the "real" espresso
definition. 9 bar is 9 bar whether it is generated by a vibe pump, a rotary
pump or the piston of a lever machine.



"*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:EuWCh.33862$yC5.15537@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

>
> Do you mean to say that "real" espresso can't be made with a lever machine
> (spring-loaded or otherwise)? Are La Pavoni Europiccolas and their ilk to
> be disparaged as mere "lever toys"? Just asking . . .
>
> --
> Alan




    
Date: 21 Feb 2007 15:57:30
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Jack Denver wrote:
> No, a lever is a type of hand operated pump and certainly makes "real"
> espresso. They have certain limitations, but still fit the "real" espresso
> definition. 9 bar is 9 bar whether it is generated by a vibe pump, a rotary
> pump or the piston of a lever machine.

What limitations are they? I haven't found any.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



     
Date: 21 Feb 2007 14:41:14
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
I was referring to the home manual lever types such as La Pavoni, not large
commercial spring levers. I think you know their limitations already -
pressure depends on how hard you press the lever, tendency to overheat after
a couple of shots, small PF, etc.


"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5438dkF1v24f8U1@mid.individual.net...
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> No, a lever is a type of hand operated pump and certainly makes "real"
>> espresso. They have certain limitations, but still fit the "real"
>> espresso definition. 9 bar is 9 bar whether it is generated by a vibe
>> pump, a rotary pump or the piston of a lever machine.
>
> What limitations are they? I haven't found any.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>




      
Date: 21 Feb 2007 20:03:59
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Jack Denver wrote:
> I was referring to the home manual lever types such as La Pavoni, not large
> commercial spring levers. I think you know their limitations already -
> pressure depends on how hard you press the lever, tendency to overheat after
> a couple of shots, small PF, etc.
>

OK :) Anyone reading it might easily have assumed all lever machines,
whereas spring levers have a lot to offer.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



       
Date: 22 Feb 2007 07:41:13
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Quoth Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com >:


        
Date: 22 Feb 2007 14:45:33
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Donn Cave wrote:
> Quoth Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com>:
>


         
Date: 23 Feb 2007 06:22:39
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Quoth Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com >:
...


          
Date: 23 Feb 2007 08:41:26
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
In article <1172211759.357498@bubbleator.drizzle.com >,
Donn Cave <donn@drizzle.com > wrote:
> Quoth Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com>:
> ...
>


           
Date: 23 Feb 2007 10:44:05
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Bill (Adopt) wrote:
> In article <1172211759.357498@bubbleator.drizzle.com>,
> Donn Cave <donn@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
>>Quoth Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com>:
>>...
>>


            
Date: 23 Feb 2007 17:07:41
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
In article <547uq1F1v5nnrU1@mid.individual.net >,
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> Bill (Adopt) wrote:
> > In article <1172211759.357498@bubbleator.drizzle.com>,
> > Donn Cave <donn@drizzle.com> wrote:

[..]
> >>But I have forgotten what this had to do with the Atomic.

> > Usenet thread drift! ..but pray don't stop, this is interesting.. :))
> >
> > Prof David Ross (where he?), an altie since before time began,
> > once suggested that I think of investing in an ex 'commercial'
> > machine if the opportunity ever presented. So, for me, this
> > conversation is a chance to learn...

[..]
> OK, since we are in minority interest off-topic area... my tuppence worth.

> *IF* space permits, a commercial machine is superior to home machines,
> provided one is prepared to preferably plumb it in and operate 24/7.
> Insulating the boiler will help enormously with running costs, but
> it's still fair to say that it's not environmentally friendly in this
> day and age.

> Lever machines are a bit special - you can walk up to my Gaggia at any
> time of the day and produce a consistent shot. No flushing or
> swapping between brew and steam stats etc. OK, you can't easily
> change the brew temp (pressurestat, not PID) but it does a superb job
> of getting 125 degree boiler water to 88 degree espresso shot. Great
> if you like espresso at 88-92, which is what it says on the tin.

> Useful side effects are that the machine becomes a kitchen appliance -
> hot water on demand (which should be used to help avoid water staling
> in the boiler) which saves ages boiling water on the stove for cooking
> pasta/veg etc and saves on the heating bill, since it's also a space
> heater :) A disadvantage if you live in a hot climate, but great gere
> in the UK, and I can dry clothes overnight :) Steam wand has many
> uses too...

OK.. thanks for the helpful info, Danny. Very useful,
particularly the fact that it can be used as general
household appliance, with a varied use both in and (just)
outside the kitchen.

I'm wondering if it would be all that much cheaper to switch
off late-evening/overnight and on again in the morning (when
'in' and around for that day) - or is the cost of re-heating
after a cool-down just the same as when left 'always-on?

Would cycling in this way also add an additional strain to
the mechanisms?

Can see another use for the lever(s) ..to hang wet shoes on
for gently drying after use in the garden/snow/rain etc after
producing the espressos - or even while, for that matter :))

OK ..sorry, I'm wandering even more off-topic (must be age!)
..but thank you for the input, Danny (and Donn) :))

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/


             
Date: 24 Feb 2007 05:26:53
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Quoth "Bill (Adopt)" <adopt@billsimpson.com >:
...


              
Date: 24 Feb 2007 23:04:52
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
You have to take into account that in England the "summer" is about 2 months
long and it doesn't really get very hot in those months either. So a big
espresso machine is no different than an AGA "always on" range, another
popular British item. On the other hand, if you live say in Houston, Texas
or Bangkok you have to be nuts to add more cooling load than you already
have.


"Donn Cave" <donn@drizzle.com > wrote in message
news:1172294812.757451@bubbleator.drizzle.com...
> Quoth "Bill (Adopt)" <adopt@billsimpson.com>:
> ...
>


               
Date: 25 Feb 2007 08:41:37
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Jack Denver wrote:
> You have to take into account that in England the "summer" is about 2 months
> long and it doesn't really get very hot in those months either. So a big
> espresso machine is no different than an AGA "always on" range, another
> popular British item. On the other hand, if you live say in Houston, Texas
> or Bangkok you have to be nuts to add more cooling load than you already
> have.

My post stated that 24/7 with a big machine was a disadvantage in hot
climates. Actually, even here global warming is advancing - we have
had the mildest winter so far (good for outside coffee bars!) and last
year we had the longest hottest summer. Expect more of the same this
year. But it's not just that, it's down to house building
technologies too. My cottage is built of brick, with no cavities,
just 11 inches thickness of brick. The north facing rooms are cool in
the hottest of (english) weather.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



                
Date: 25 Feb 2007 12:34:29
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
It turns out that that kind of uninsulated masonry construction is terrible.
It's true that you have a big thermal mass, but a foot of brick has the
same R- value as 1/4" of foam. It only works in your climate because it
never gets very hot to begin with. That same construction in Florida (or
even in Philadelphia) would feel like a bake oven in the summer.





"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:54d0ceF1vfsvnU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> My post stated that 24/7 with a big machine was a disadvantage in hot
> climates. Actually, even here global warming is advancing - we have had
> the mildest winter so far (good for outside coffee bars!) and last year we
> had the longest hottest summer. Expect more of the same this year. But
> it's not just that, it's down to house building technologies too. My
> cottage is built of brick, with no cavities, just 11 inches thickness of
> brick. The north facing rooms are cool in the hottest of (english)
> weather.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>
>




                 
Date: 25 Feb 2007 22:35:22
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Jack Denver wrote:
> It turns out that that kind of uninsulated masonry construction is terrible.
> It's true that you have a big thermal mass, but a foot of brick has the
> same R- value as 1/4" of foam. It only works in your climate because it
> never gets very hot to begin with. That same construction in Florida (or
> even in Philadelphia) would feel like a bake oven in the summer.

It's not normal construction here. Usually houses have cavities
unless they are built of stone. These are railway cottages from the
1840's, when even most victorian houses had cavities. These cottages
are even rendered on the outside with lines etched in to make them
look like they are made of stone.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



                
Date: 25 Feb 2007 08:50:22
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
>The north facing rooms are cool in the hottest of (english) weather.

Of course, the north facing rooms are used as Danny's built in freezers
during the rest of the year. <G > The hottest english weather I've ever
experienced, at the height of their so-called summer, rates about
"temperate" on tthe local scale.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au





             
Date: 23 Feb 2007 18:22:14
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Bill (Adopt) wrote:
>
> OK.. thanks for the helpful info, Danny. Very useful,
> particularly the fact that it can be used as general
> household appliance, with a varied use both in and (just)
> outside the kitchen.
>
> I'm wondering if it would be all that much cheaper to switch
> off late-evening/overnight and on again in the morning (when
> 'in' and around for that day) - or is the cost of re-heating
> after a cool-down just the same as when left 'always-on?
>
> Would cycling in this way also add an additional strain to
> the mechanisms?
>
> Can see another use for the lever(s) ..to hang wet shoes on
> for gently drying after use in the garden/snow/rain etc after
> producing the espressos - or even while, for that matter :))
>
> OK ..sorry, I'm wandering even more off-topic (must be age!)
> ..but thank you for the input, Danny (and Donn) :))
>
> Bill ZFC
>

My 3 group has an idle cycle of 50 seconds every 8.5 minutes when up
to temp. That is, it powers up the elements for 50 seconds to keep
the pressurestat within it's .1 bar deadband every 8.5 minutes. This
is with insulation (see my site below for detail). From cold, it
takes 25 minutes to get to pressure and probably more than 40 minutes
in total to reach equilibrium - where the groups etc are hot and
stable. Since I use the machine at any time of the day from 04:50 to
23:00 it seems easier to leave it on. As you say, thermal stress
would affect the machine more. The two group in the trailer lets me
know it needs new piston seals regularly by them sticking when the
machine is cold. Once hot, the machine runs fine.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



       
Date: 22 Feb 2007 01:24:32
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
In article <543mrpF1vabbkU1@mid.individual.net >,
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> Jack Denver wrote:
> > I was referring to the home manual lever types such as
> > La Pavoni, not large
> > commercial spring levers. I think you know their
> > limitations already -
> > pressure depends on how hard you press the lever,
> > tendency to overheat after
> > a couple of shots, small PF, etc.


> OK :) Anyone reading it might easily have assumed all lever machines,
> whereas spring levers have a lot to offer.

Don't they use also spring levers in lethal injection
machines as well? The air piston starts and then the
spring takes over automatically, smoothly injecting the
poison into the system of the recipient.

In GB and Europe we call them anaesthetists - every
hospital has a few on it's books - although never
intentionally lethal(1) Guess, like their USofA
counterparts, they too live on caffeine.

;))

Bill ZFC

(1) Except for one, a GP, who made final 'caring' house-
calls to a v.large number of his elderly patients. :((

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/


        
Date: 22 Feb 2007 14:43:41
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
Bill (Adopt) wrote:
Bill ZFC
>
> (1) Except for one, a GP, who made final 'caring' house-
> calls to a v.large number of his elderly patients. :((
>

And made the mistake as signing time of death as being in the
afternoon, when actually most deaths occur at night, and certainly not
all at the same time of day.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)



  
Date: 20 Feb 2007 22:35:21
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE

"Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL" <aquaman@tandem.artell.net > wrote in message
news:lq1lt2l40p81dia5hl80lu6rt7rppjtppt@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:01:35 -0500, Rusty James
> <ferrante276-rustyjames@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> >would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
> >
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPageName=
ADME:B:SS:US:1
>
> It's a collectible, IMHO. It doesn't make real espresso; it's just a
> convoluted, albeit attractive, "steam toy." My experience with the
> Atomic and similar devices (Vesuviana, Salton, etc) is that they get
> the water far too hot and the result is a rather bitter, burnt-tasting
> cup of coffee.
>
> The Atomic uses the same process as a $35 Bialetti moka pot, i.e. it
> forces the water through the coffee using steam pressure. In order to
> get that pressure, the water has to be at a temperature above
> atmospheric boiling (100c/212f). Real espresso machines make coffee
> with water around 92-95c/190-195f), certainly not at or above boiling,
> and use a pump to generate the required pressure.
>
> -Shel
>
Sure 'real' espresso requires high pressure but the grind and tamping is
quite different for a moka like the atomic.
Also you can get 12 psi developed from vapor pressure with the temp as low
as 203F.
It would be possible to make coffee with one of these machines and keep the
temp below boiling but you'd have to monitor it and stop the process
before it went too far. I did some measurements on that a couple of years
ago, and it surprised me that coffee started flowing through the atomic
portafilter at the low temp of 105F and that most of the water had passed
through well before the temp reached 212.
I haven't tried it but I wonder if you could get the temperature in an
acceptable range by leaving the water cap off initially so that the water
had time too heat up around 180/190, then capping it off and then removing
the jug (replacing it with something else) as soon as the coffee stops
flowing and starts to sputter from the portafilter.

Here's what I measured back in 2005:
http://tinyurl.com/3agymk
orer
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_thread/thread/e5b7e6c7f77cf
76a/27e42ab82a1070be?rnum=5&hl=en#27e42ab82a1070be




 
Date: 19 Feb 2007 17:23:39
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE
On Feb 17, 11:01 pm, Rusty James <ferrante276-rustyja...@yahoo.com >
wrote:
> Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPag...
>
> Rusty

There are currently no less than five of these at auction!

Dave
217



 
Date: 17 Feb 2007 20:14:27
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: Vintage Italian ATOMIC ESPRESSO MACHINE

"Rusty James" <ferrante276-rustyjames@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:pojft29aerso6l0btcc3gb3gbnfa27bilk@4ax.com...
> Would this be a good espresso machine or more of a collectable? What
> would something like this be worth should I decide to bid?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110093199173&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
>
> Rusty

They're great machines and they're also quite popular as collectibles;
they've been going for between $200 to $500, so I wouldn't hope to get it
cheap. The one in question looks to be in excellent condition and I'd bet
it'll go for at least $300 ----- more, if it had been not been colored.

--
Alan