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Date: 25 Jun 2007 15:28:46
From: Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Subject: Water temperature question
Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
a decent pot of black tea!.
Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
attachments. So here's my question.
What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
pot of tea.
Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
- the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
- water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
the cup is first disturbed.
--
Rostyk




 
Date: 30 Jun 2007 13:59:41
From: Fran
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On Jun 25, 4:05 pm, Lewis Perin <p...@panix.com > wrote:
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
> > Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> > almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> > of NO BOILING WATER!.
>
> Can this be true? I can think of lots of things that go on in a
> restaurant that would be impossible without boiling water.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / p...@acm.orghttp://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I was just thinking the same thing. I think the reason we don't get
black tea made with boiling water in restaurants is due to a lack of
understanding on the part of the restaurant staff, as well as an
unwillingness to wait until the water reaches a full boil.

Non-hot tea drinkers (of which there are many in the USA) just don't
understand. I honestly think that they believe we are being too fussy
when we demand boiling water and don't realize what a huge difference
it really makes. Add to that the number of people in this country who
have become accustomed to having tea made with less than boiling water
-- or have never known anything else. People in my office can't
understand why I use a Hot Shot to make my tea instead of just using
the hot water tap on the water cooler. I try to explain and
inevitably, I am met with just blank stares.





  
Date: 03 Jul 2007 13:13:16
From: Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Fran wrote:
> On Jun 25, 4:05 pm, Lewis Perin <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>>
>>> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
>>> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
>>> of NO BOILING WATER!.
>> Can this be true? I can think of lots of things that go on in a
>> restaurant that would be impossible without boiling water.
>>
>> /Lew
>> ---
>> Lew Perin / p...@acm.orghttp://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
>
> I was just thinking the same thing. I think the reason we don't get
> black tea made with boiling water in restaurants is due to a lack of
> understanding on the part of the restaurant staff, as well as an
> unwillingness to wait until the water reaches a full boil.
>
> Non-hot tea drinkers (of which there are many in the USA) just don't
> understand. I honestly think that they believe we are being too fussy
> when we demand boiling water and don't realize what a huge difference
> it really makes. Add to that the number of people in this country who
> have become accustomed to having tea made with less than boiling water
> -- or have never known anything else. People in my office can't
> understand why I use a Hot Shot to make my tea instead of just using
> the hot water tap on the water cooler. I try to explain and
> inevitably, I am met with just blank stares.
>
What you write is quite true. But it doesn't apply to what I wrote.
First. I am not writing about a general restaurant. I am writing about
the specialized cafe bars in various establishments, specifically
in the Barnes & Noble and Borders bookstores, but it applies to cafe
bars in other locales. The bookstore bars make a point of offering
various teas and even sell tins of tea and tea brewing equipment.
So one might expect, or have expected, them to be willing and able
to brew a decent pot of black tea. However they all _refuse_ to bring
their water to a boil. All cite employer policy, work rules.
By the way, they brew the teas in glass press pots and serve with
a ceramic mug, or fancy glasses, _not_ paper (of foam) cups.
--
Rostyk


 
Date: 29 Jun 2007 06:39:16
From: Space Cowboy
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
The ones I have which is a good cross section are made from bud
(round). They're actually nipped when they open up. These are
essentially green tea bud concentrate. I drink mine off the top in a
thermal glass cup with 50% displacement. It reminds you of a liquor.
They remind me of coral fauna. Delicate not course. I've never
finished one off because my tastebuds gave out first. I will be the
first to suggest the perfect complement for the never ending gongfu
session. It's better if you judge one by the total of
sight,smell,taste. They don't look appetizing when they dry out. I
use boiling water for mine. It doesn't seem to hurt the interior. It
cools down much faster than corresponding loose leaf.

Jim

PS I've mentioned Fairy Peach blossom which is common in my stores as
one of my favorite green teas from China. There is no flower, no
scent. They look like fuzzy strips on the surface from the wrapped
bud. I have several called Fairy which has the hairy look. I think
you can key on the word Fairy when looking under your pillow.

Lewis Perin wrote:
> Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
>
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> >
> > > Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
> > >
> > >>[...]
> > >>I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
> > >>green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
> > >> something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
> > > Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
> > > 140F.
> >
> > I thought 185 might be on the high side, but I know I used hotter than
> > 140. I'll have to try some both ways. I still have a couple of the
> > "flower ball" things I need to try out.
>
> Not to discourage you from using a cooler temperature, but those
> display teas probably need it less than most greens simply because
> display teas tend to be made from big, mature leaves. You'd get
> dramatic results from cool brewing with green teas manufactured from
> tiny, early spring buds and leaves.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html



 
Date: 28 Jun 2007 11:45:05
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Am 27 Jun 2007, Lewis Perin schrieb:



> Not to mention the fact that the taste of a paper cup is stronger than
> that of almost any green tea...

That's true of the stale green tea in a bag you're likely to get in a
café in the US.

I'm guessing you've never had matcha. That'll knock your socks off.


--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


  
Date: 28 Jun 2007 14:00:51
From: Lewis Perin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Barutan Seijin <barutanseijin@gmail.com > writes:

> Am 27 Jun 2007, Lewis Perin schrieb:
>
>
>
> > Not to mention the fact that the taste of a paper cup is stronger than
> > that of almost any green tea...
>
> That's true of the stale green tea in a bag you're likely to get in a
> café in the US.

It's also true of subtle green teas that are completely fresh.

> I'm guessing you've never had matcha. That'll knock your socks off.

I'd forgotten matcha. You're right; its taste should dominate a paper
cup's.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


 
Date: 27 Jun 2007 11:03:58
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:

> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!.

Never heard that one! That's was I call al dente pasta!

I know that some people use charcoal filters on their shower head,
something about volatile chemicals in the water. But I've NEVER heard
of restrictions in restaurants.

> As a consequence they are unable to brew
> a decent pot of black tea!.

I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me). Is
black tea different?

Since I'm on tea, I recently saw the blooming display teas on TV. They
are hand stitched in china, and come in a ball shape. When the hot
water hits them, they open up, and there are a couple of flower blossoms
inside. It's a cool and unusual novelty, and the one that I tried so
far actually was very good. A mild green tea with a decided floral
note. There are a couple of suppliers that will send a "free sample" or
two, for a couple bucks postage. I plan to order more. I think it
would make an unusual gift, along with a clear tea pot.

EXAMPLE:
http://scribalterror.blogs.com/scribal_terror/images/display_teas.jpg

> Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
> attachments. So here's my question.
> What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
> of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
> and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
> the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
> pot of tea.
> Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
> - the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
> - water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.


  
Date: 27 Jun 2007 14:27:03
From: Lewis Perin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com > writes:

> [...]
> I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
> green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
> something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).

Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
140F.

> Is black tea different?

Yes. Most people like fully-oxidized teas brewed with water at a full
boil.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


   
Date: 27 Jun 2007 18:23:00
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Lewis Perin wrote:

> Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
>
>
>>[...]
>>I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
>>green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
>>something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
>
>
> Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
> 140F.

I thought 185 might be on the high side, but I know I used hotter than
140. I'll have to try some both ways. I still have a couple of the
"flower ball" things I need to try out.

>
>
>>Is black tea different?
>
>
> Yes. Most people like fully-oxidized teas brewed with water at a full
> boil.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


    
Date: 28 Jun 2007 10:19:52
From: Lewis Perin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
>
> > Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
> >
> >>[...]
> >>I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
> >>green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
> >> something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
> > Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
> > 140F.
>
> I thought 185 might be on the high side, but I know I used hotter than
> 140. I'll have to try some both ways. I still have a couple of the
> "flower ball" things I need to try out.

Not to discourage you from using a cooler temperature, but those
display teas probably need it less than most greens simply because
display teas tend to be made from big, mature leaves. You'd get
dramatic results from cool brewing with green teas manufactured from
tiny, early spring buds and leaves.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


     
Date: 28 Jun 2007 21:36:48
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Lewis Perin wrote:
> Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
>
>
>>Lewis Perin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>[...]
>>>>I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
>>>>green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
>>>>something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
>>>
>>>Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
>>>140F.
>>
>>I thought 185 might be on the high side, but I know I used hotter than
>>140. I'll have to try some both ways. I still have a couple of the
>>"flower ball" things I need to try out.
>
>
> Not to discourage you from using a cooler temperature, but those
> display teas probably need it less than most greens simply because
> display teas tend to be made from big, mature leaves. You'd get
> dramatic results from cool brewing with green teas manufactured from
> tiny, early spring buds and leaves.

Thanks. I really know very little about tea. I generally go to a place
in Seattle's International District, and buy loose green tea in a mid or
upper mid price range, and hope for the best. The display teas are a
novelty that I had to check out. If you have a suggestion for what to
look for when I buy green tea, I'd welcome it.


   
Date: 27 Jun 2007 12:00:54
From: Ken Blake
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On 27 Jun 2007 14:27:03 -0400, Lewis Perin <perin@panix.com > wrote:

> Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
>
> > [...]
> > I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
> > green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
> > something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
>
> Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
> 140F.


Can you describe how it tastes different when you use cooler water?

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


    
Date: 27 Jun 2007 15:30:17
From: Lewis Perin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Ken Blake <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain > writes:

> On 27 Jun 2007 14:27:03 -0400, Lewis Perin <perin@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
> >
> > > [...]
> > > I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
> > > green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
> > > something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
> >
> > Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
> > 140F.
>
>
> Can you describe how it tastes different when you use cooler water?

Sweeter, less astringent, and if it's really good tea, there could be
lots of nuances: fruity, floral, nutty.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


     
Date: 27 Jun 2007 18:07:23
From: Ken Blake
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On 27 Jun 2007 15:30:17 -0400, Lewis Perin <perin@panix.com > wrote:

> Ken Blake <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> writes:
>
> > On 27 Jun 2007 14:27:03 -0400, Lewis Perin <perin@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > I'm reading this from alt.coffee. When I drink tea, it's usually a
> > > > green tea, and I've been told it's best NOT to use boiling water, but
> > > > something at around 185 degrees or so (if my memory serves me).
> > >
> > > Actually, I like most greens brewed cooler than that, some as cool as
> > > 140F.
> >
> >
> > Can you describe how it tastes different when you use cooler water?
>
> Sweeter, less astringent, and if it's really good tea, there could be
> lots of nuances: fruity, floral, nutty.


Thank you. I'll have to try it that way.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


 
Date: 27 Jun 2007 06:31:36
From: gscace
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On Jun 25, 3:28 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net >
wrote:
> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
> a decent pot of black tea!.
> Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
> attachments. So here's my question.
> What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
> of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
> and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
> the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
> pot of tea.
> Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
> - the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
> - water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.
> --
> Rostyk

I don't see why not. I routinely do this when I need a quick cup or
so of boiling water for tea, or any cooking need. Hot water from my
marzocco's hot water tap comes out at near boiling temp as well.

I also should note that I don't know squat about tea. I recently
learned from some tea folk that boiling water is not the right call
for brewing some teas. Maybe you know something about that?

-Greg



  
Date: 27 Jun 2007 14:27:13
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 06:31:36 -0700, gscace <gregory.scace@nist.gov >
wrote:

>I also should note that I don't know squat about tea. I recently
>learned from some tea folk that boiling water is not the right call
>for brewing some teas. Maybe you know something about that?
>
>-Greg

True. Some teas brew better at cooler temperatures.

Marshall


   
Date: 27 Jun 2007 15:11:54
From:
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
In alt.coffee, Marshall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 06:31:36 -0700, gscace <gregory.scace@nist.gov>
> wrote:

> >I also should note that I don't know squat about tea. I recently
> >learned from some tea folk that boiling water is not the right call
> >for brewing some teas. Maybe you know something about that?
> >
> >-Greg

> True. Some teas brew better at cooler temperatures.

Green tea needs water of about 180 (or less) and needs to be seperated
from the water before it gets bitter.

--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel



 
Date: 27 Jun 2007 06:31:27
From: Space Cowboy
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
I'd like to see either in action. I'll never use the range anymore.

Jim

PS Don't use steel bottom kettles with an aluminum rim on ceramic
tops. The differential will mar the surface. I learned the hard way.

Danny wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> -snip-
> > PS I switched to a 1500w electric pot. It makes water holy real
> > fast.
>
> Pah, that's nothing. Considering you Merkins have everything bigger
> and better than us Brits, at least we have proper manly kettles (and
> proper electric) which have 3kw at 230v to heat the water *real*
> quick. Even my espresso machine has 4500w/230v to help it's 16 litre
> boiler do it's stuff :)
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 26 Jun 2007 21:13:52
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
> a decent pot of black tea!.
> Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
> attachments. So here's my question.
> What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
> of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
> and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
> the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
> pot of tea.
> Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
> - the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
> - water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.

Eh? We use an Astoria auxilliary steamer to prepare our tea. It dang
sure boils water and we serve it close to boiling. We serve the tea from
Grace Tea in NYC either loose in the pot or in a strainer. We carry
about 12 black teas and 3 or so green. I always know when the backflow
prevention valve has stuck or gone bad because the boiler will continue
to fill and shoot boiling water into the mains and they will begin to
knock vigourously and steam will come out of the cold taps. I love
equipment.\
Bernie


 
Date: 26 Jun 2007 19:08:07
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Am 26 Jun 2007, Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj schrieb:


> Thanks. I was hoping that it would be comparable, i.e. no more
> dangerous than frothing milk. i.e. Fill the Bodum with the _hot_ water
> provided for making tea, steam that to a boil, and then put in the
> brewing cup with its tea and plunger. Well it looks like I'll have to
> stick to green teas at the cafe in the local Barnes and Noble or
> Borders book stores. :(

Considering the quality of the tea you would get, this is no great
loss. Of course, the green tea is never very good, either.


--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


  
Date: 27 Jun 2007 14:29:09
From: Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Barutan Seijin wrote:
> Am 26 Jun 2007, Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj schrieb:
>
>
>> Thanks. I was hoping that it would be comparable, i.e. no more
>> dangerous than frothing milk. i.e. Fill the Bodum with the _hot_ water
>> provided for making tea, steam that to a boil, and then put in the
>> brewing cup with its tea and plunger. Well it looks like I'll have to
>> stick to green teas at the cafe in the local Barnes and Noble or
>> Borders book stores. :(
>
> Considering the quality of the tea you would get, this is no great
> loss. Of course, the green tea is never very good, either.
>
>
Agreed. But I go to the bookstores primarily to browse and read
the books, and not for the tea or coffee. Although the tea and
coffee there is better than in the standard (not specialty)
restaurants. At least one can order a pot of "green tips" or
"english breakfast" and not be served a bag of: Salada, Liptons,
or some restaurant suppliers tea. Also the coffee is generally
better, and so is the choice of pastries.
Which is all meant as faint praise.
--
Rostyk


  
Date: 27 Jun 2007 09:52:30
From: Lewis Perin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Barutan Seijin <barutanseijin@gmail.com > writes:

> Am 26 Jun 2007, Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj schrieb:
>
>
> > Thanks. I was hoping that it would be comparable, i.e. no more
> > dangerous than frothing milk. i.e. Fill the Bodum with the _hot_ water
> > provided for making tea, steam that to a boil, and then put in the
> > brewing cup with its tea and plunger. Well it looks like I'll have to
> > stick to green teas at the cafe in the local Barnes and Noble or
> > Borders book stores. :(
>
> Considering the quality of the tea you would get, this is no great
> loss. Of course, the green tea is never very good, either.

Not to mention the fact that the taste of a paper cup is stronger than
that of almost any green tea...

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


 
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:23:34
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
A certain lawsuit arising from a McDonald's coffee spill is coming to
mind. You can, in part, thank stupid people like that for the
hesitance to allow piping hot water.

I assume this regulation doesn't apply to restaurants... no boiling
water would screw up a lot of recipes, I imagine.

-Brent



  
Date: 03 Jul 2007 02:05:06
From: Alan Petrillo
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Brent wrote:
> A certain lawsuit arising from a McDonald's coffee spill is coming to
> mind. You can, in part, thank stupid people like that for the
> hesitance to allow piping hot water.

She's even had an award named after her. The "Stella" Awards.

http://www.stellaawards.com/

> I assume this regulation doesn't apply to restaurants... no boiling
> water would screw up a lot of recipes, I imagine.

The deal, as I understand it, is that they can't bring boiling water _to
the table_. They can, and in some cases are required to, use it in the
kitchen.

But there are devices to get around this law.

One of them is called a "romulizer", and it securely clamps a lid onto
the pot so that it can't spill even if dropped. I'm sure tea shops
could do something similar with teapots.


AP


  
Date: 26 Jun 2007 19:15:08
From: Aaron Hsu
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On 2007-06-26 18:23:34 -0500, Brent <bmhughes@gmail.com > said:

> I assume this regulation doesn't apply to restaurants... no boiling
> water would screw up a lot of recipes, I imagine.

There is also the issue of sanitation if one does not use boiling water.
--
Aaron Hsu <aaron.hsu@sacrificumdeo.net >

"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he
could do only a little." - Edmund Burke



 
Date: 26 Jun 2007 17:18:17
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:28:46 -0400, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
<urjlew@bellsouth.net > wrote:

>Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
>almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
>of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
>a decent pot of black tea!.
>Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
>attachments. So here's my question.
>What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
>of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
>and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
>the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
>pot of tea.
>Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
>- the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
>- water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.

The issue is customer liability, not occupational safety. Boiling
water is a necessity for many kinds of cooking. So, kitchen staff work
with it all the time.

If the owner doesn't want baristas to hand boiling water over the
counter, it won't matter how it got boiled, you're not going to get
any. So, your first obstacle is convincing the bar staff to brew it
for you and hand it over when it's done. If you can get them to do
that, then you can move on to the how-to-boil-it issue.

Marshall



 
Date: 26 Jun 2007 05:44:39
From: Space Cowboy
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Nothing boils water faster than steam. The supersaturated steam packs
more calories and if released under pressure can be hotter than
boiling. I think the problem might be the fit. It is designed for
cups not pots at least that is what I discovered with my home expresso
which was a gift. Even at that boil the water in the cup and pour
into the pot but I guess that is the ordinance. Someone recently
suggested using a silicon tube hooked up to their pressure cooker
which I know would solve my expresso clearance problem. I'd run the
tube from the jet to the pot sitting beside. I'm sure the dishwasher
is still at boiling. I assume you are talking about serving. I sleep
better at night knowing a waiter can only scald me with less than
boiling water. Just so long as they don't pass laws against flaming
fajitas.

Jim

PS I switched to a 1500w electric pot. It makes water holy real
fast.

Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
> a decent pot of black tea!.
> Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
> attachments. So here's my question.
> What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
> of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
> and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
> the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
> pot of tea.
> Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
> - the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
> - water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.
> --
> Rostyk



  
Date: 26 Jun 2007 22:33:08
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Space Cowboy wrote:
> Nothing boils water faster than steam. The supersaturated steam packs
> more calories

NO WONDER I've been gaining weight. Thanks for the heads up.

:-)

--


-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/


  
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:58:34
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Space Cowboy wrote:
-snip-
> PS I switched to a 1500w electric pot. It makes water holy real
> fast.

Pah, that's nothing. Considering you Merkins have everything bigger
and better than us Brits, at least we have proper manly kettles (and
proper electric) which have 3kw at 230v to heat the water *real*
quick. Even my espresso machine has 4500w/230v to help it's 16 litre
boiler do it's stuff :)


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



   
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:43:16
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Howdy Danny!
Are you suggesting that Brits need more capacity to perform the same work
load?

{::o)

--
Robert (I thought Brits took pride in getting the job done with *less*
natural resources?)Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.

"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5ecrdbF37vhd7U1@mid.individual.net...
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> -snip-
>> PS I switched to a 1500w electric pot. It makes water holy real
>> fast.
>
> Pah, that's nothing. Considering you Merkins have everything bigger and
> better than us Brits, at least we have proper manly kettles (and proper
> electric) which have 3kw at 230v to heat the water *real* quick. Even my
> espresso machine has 4500w/230v to help it's 16 litre boiler do it's stuff
> :)
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




 
Date: 25 Jun 2007 19:20:44
From: TeaDave
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
> Never heard of such restriction. Is it just your local place? I can't
> imagine "no boiling water" ever being legislated for a food establishment.
> Bob

I don't know if it's legalized or not, but I currently work at such a
cafe (still in college, was a part time job this last semester, still
there for the summer months) and the espresso machine and drip coffee
maker we have don't bring the water to a boil. Boiling the water in a
pitcher using a steam nozzle is possible, but slightly difficult, as
the water tends to rapidly expand out the top of the pitcher in all
directions. So your barrista may not be open to such an idea, as it's
remarkably easy to burn oneself.







  
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:34:16
From: Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
TeaDave wrote:
>> Never heard of such restriction. Is it just your local place? I can't
>> imagine "no boiling water" ever being legislated for a food establishment.
>> Bob
>
> I don't know if it's legalized or not, but I currently work at such a
> cafe (still in college, was a part time job this last semester, still
> there for the summer months) and the espresso machine and drip coffee
> maker we have don't bring the water to a boil. Boiling the water in a
> pitcher using a steam nozzle is possible, but slightly difficult, as
> the water tends to rapidly expand out the top of the pitcher in all
> directions. So your barrista may not be open to such an idea, as it's
> remarkably easy to burn oneself.
>
Thanks. I was hoping that it would be comparable, i.e. no more dangerous
than frothing milk. i.e. Fill the Bodum with the _hot_ water provided
for making tea, steam that to a boil, and then put in the brewing cup
with its tea and plunger.
Well it looks like I'll have to stick to green teas at the cafe
in the local Barnes and Noble or Borders book stores. :(

Even in restaurants getting tea brewed with boiling water is almost
impossible around here. :(, and they usually have only the dinky
one cup capacity pots and no choice in teas.
--
Rostyk


   
Date: 28 Jun 2007 13:42:54
From: Scott Dorsey
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj <urjlew@bellsouth.net > wrote:
>
>Even in restaurants getting tea brewed with boiling water is almost
>impossible around here. :(, and they usually have only the dinky
>one cup capacity pots and no choice in teas.

The two places I have been in the US which offer properly-made tea are
the Blue Talon in Williamsburg VA (which has a very limited selection
but decent quality and proper brewing) and Legal Seafood (which started
in Boston but is now all over and which has a wider selection).
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


  
Date: 26 Jun 2007 11:39:27
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
>the espresso machine and drip coffee
>maker we have don't bring the water to a boil.

Might be against the local laws, but definitely impossible under the laws of
thermodynamics, which are far more rigorous than any local ordinance.


--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




  
Date: 26 Jun 2007 03:58:38
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
TeaDave wrote:

> I don't know if it's legalized or not, but I currently work at such a
> cafe (still in college, was a part time job this last semester, still
> there for the summer months) and the espresso machine and drip coffee
> maker we have don't bring the water to a boil. Boiling the water in a
> pitcher using a steam nozzle is possible, but slightly difficult, as
> the water tends to rapidly expand out the top of the pitcher in all
> directions. So your barrista may not be open to such an idea, as it's
> remarkably easy to burn oneself.
>

I doubt that many espresso machines can operate without boiling the
water unless it's a twin boiler with the brew boiler below boiling, or
the more usual system of mixing cold water with the boiler water
before the dispenser. Could explain a lot of bad espresso though.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:58:51
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Finding the keyboard operational
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj entered:

> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
> a decent pot of black tea!.
> Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
> attachments. So here's my question.
> What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
> of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
> and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
> the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
> pot of tea.
> Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
> - the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
> - water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.

Never heard of such restriction. Is it just your local place? I can't
imagine "no boiling water" ever being legislated for a food establishment.
Bob


--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com



 
Date: 25 Jun 2007 16:05:51
From: Lewis Perin
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urjlew@bellsouth.net > writes:

> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!.

Can this be true? I can think of lots of things that go on in a
restaurant that would be impossible without boiling water.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


  
Date: 27 Jun 2007 02:56:52
From: Deb
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
It's not true.

"Lewis Perin" <perin@panix.com > wrote in message
news:pc78xa7dckg.fsf@panix2.panix.com...
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urjlew@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
>> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
>> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
>> of NO BOILING WATER!.
>
> Can this be true? I can think of lots of things that go on in a
> restaurant that would be impossible without boiling water.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / perin@acm.org
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html




 
Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:04:22
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Water temperature question
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
> Here in the USA, due to occupational health and safety concerns,
> almost all the cafe establishments operate with the restriction
> of NO BOILING WATER!. As a consequence they are unable to brew
> a decent pot of black tea!.
> Now most of these places have espresso machines with milk steaming
> attachments. So here's my question.
> What is the temperature of the fluid (air/steam) which comes out
> of the steaming heads? Is it above the boiling point of water?
> and so, IF I ASKED NICELY, could be used by the barrista to heat
> the water in the teapot to boiling, and so fit to brew a decent
> pot of tea.
> Asking them to nuke a pot doesn't work because:
> - the pots usually have at least some metal fittings
> - water in a mug often super heats, and explodes when
> the cup is first disturbed.

Luckily, over here we have no such problem, in fact the opposite - I
keep cracking cups as they are often cold (in the trailer) when the
boiling water hits them.

You can steam hot water to boiling in a few seconds, so yes, I'd ask
the barista to do that before adding the tea.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)