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Main
Date: 04 Sep 2006 15:20:26
From: Frank103
Subject: What I'm trying to accomplish
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I would like to thank all who replied to my decaf question. I think Ken gave
a very thoughtful reply and I appreciate the dissenting opinions of others.
There was one thing that Ken said about how I should first think about what
I'm trying to accomplish before I start spending money a machine and
grinder. How true.
I especially like cappuccino and lattees. I don't have a lot of experience
with espresso. The few I've had seemed very bitter. A more mello espresso
would be more appealing. I read about the Keurig pod and most people who
reviewed it on Amazon liked it. Gave it 4 and a half stars. The most common
criticism is that the coffee available in pods is weak, which would be a
problem for me, and the pods are expensive. The ones I saw ranged from 40 to
60 cents each plus shipping and taxes where applicable.
What I'm thinking of buying is the Silvia and Rocky package for $790 US. I'm
retired so I have the time to experiment and the money isn't a problem. I'm
just wondering if the S&R isn't overkill for cappucinnos and lattes. I'm
sure I would eventually get around to trying to make a descent espresso but
my main interest is C&Ls. So I'm wondering if a $20 Bialetti stovetop and a
$20 frother (Aerolator?) wouldn't accomplish pretty much the same thing as
the Silvia & Rocky. All comments are welcome and appreciated. Thanks in
advance.
Frank
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 10:40:27
From: CQ
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Frank103 wrote:
So I'm wondering if a $20 Bialetti stovetop and a
> $20 frother (Aerolator?) wouldn't accomplish pretty much the same thing as
> the Silvia & Rocky.
A moka pot won't make espresso., of course. But it can make a very
good full-bodied cup of strong coffee that will hold up in many milk
drinks. So why not give it a try first and see if it does it for you.
You'll only be out a few dollars and a moka pot is a good thing to have
around anyway.
If you are making espresso for youself and maybe one or two others,
there are good alternatives, IMHO, to the Silvia. The low-end Gaggias
can make a fine cup of espresso. They may not have the boiler capacity
to turn out espressos for a crowd, but are great for typical home use.
In fact, the smaller boiler has one advantage for small-scale
production - it heats up very quickly ( which means, of course, it
might not maintain temp during a pour as well as a slower, larger
boiler). It is also an aluminum boiler, so it probably won't last as
long as the large brass boiler Silvia uses. OTOH, the heating element
is embedded into the wall of the boiler and doesn't contact the water,
meaning it won't die from corrosion or from the boiler going dry.
In any case, you'll still need a good grinder and the Rocky is
certainly one.
I get by with a Gaggia Carezza and a Solis Maestro. This combo is
probably not as reliable in producing god shots as the S&R combo, but I
still turn out, routinely, darn fine espresso and the small milk drinks
I like. Certainly better than 99% of the coffee shops in the major
metropolitan area I live in.
You'll also need a source of reasonable quality beans freshly roasted
to the style you like. I ended up doing my own roasts for the same
reasons I make my own espresso.
So it ends up becoming quite a hobby.
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 06:14:50
From: daveb
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish -- is make good espresso??
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Hmm....
Frank: get one of my 'pid' Silvia and Rocky packages for $895, incl
shipping and one year warranty!!
Just a thought.
and PS, stay away from the POD!
Dave
877 286 2833
Frank103 wrote:
> I would like to thank all who replied to my decaf question. I think Ken gave
> a very thoughtful reply and I appreciate the dissenting opinions of others.
> There was one thing that Ken said about how I should first think about what
> I'm trying to accomplish before I start spending money a machine and
> grinder. How true.
>
> I especially like cappuccino and lattees. I don't have a lot of experience
> with espresso. The few I've had seemed very bitter. A more mello espresso
> would be more appealing. I read about the Keurig pod and most people who
> reviewed it on Amazon liked it. Gave it 4 and a half stars. The most common
> criticism is that the coffee available in pods is weak, which would be a
> problem for me, and the pods are expensive. The ones I saw ranged from 40 to
> 60 cents each plus shipping and taxes where applicable.
>
> What I'm thinking of buying is the Silvia and Rocky package for $790 US. I'm
> retired so I have the time to experiment and the money isn't a problem. I'm
> just wondering if the S&R isn't overkill for cappucinnos and lattes. I'm
> sure I would eventually get around to trying to make a descent espresso but
> my main interest is C&Ls. So I'm wondering if a $20 Bialetti stovetop and a
> $20 frother (Aerolator?) wouldn't accomplish pretty much the same thing as
> the Silvia & Rocky. All comments are welcome and appreciated. Thanks in
> advance.
> Frank
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 05:16:13
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Ken Fox wrote about Silvia and heat exchangers.
The extent to which I find myself agreeing with Ken these days is
beginning to frighten me. If he tells me he's voting the straight
Democratic ticket in the next election, I'm seeking the help of an
exorcist!
I've had two Silvias (gave the first one away to a dear friend) and I
have long been an admirer of their cranky goodness. OTOH, as Ken as
observed, while they will steam a cup or two with ferocity, they do
require some time to do so.
I recently moved up from Silvia to an Expobar Brewtus II which will
make cup after cup and steam pitcher after pitcher until the sun sets
in the west. However, it is more than twice the price of the Silvia
and I'm not sure that makes sense, either.
What does NOT make sense, however, is to buy a cheapie piece of crap
that will never satisfy you for long.
As to the taste of espresso, know that "bitter" is a relative term
among drinkers. Virtually everyone trying espresso for the first time,
even from the Fountains of Schomer, will find it bitter. When an
espresso lover says, then, that the cup in hand is bitter, s/he means
biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitter.
Ignore the coffee snobs. If milk and sugar are good in your mouth,
enjoy them and pay no attention to people who say otherwise. That
being said, you may well find, as time goes by, that a fondness for
unadulterated black goodness will grow upon you.
Enjoy!
Will
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 09:21:49
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Here are some specific machines to look at that should be more efficient for
milk drink production than would be a Silvia. I have no experience with any
of these machines but every reason to believe that any of them would be a
good choice. All of these are under $1000 as listed on these websites:
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/anita
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/newoscar
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/bezzera/index.htm
http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/fiorenzato/briccoletta_tank_lever.htm
http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/Expobar.cfm
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 15:44:57
From: Frank103
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Ken, thanks for the links and thanks to the others for their input. I have
narrowed it down to Expobar. But I'm having a hard time choosing between 3
models. Whole Lotte Love's compare-o-matic shows very little difference
between the three; it's mostly cosmetic and on one model it's convenience. I
doubt anyone could tell the difference in a taste test. According to the CS
lady, the insides are basically the same.
The Expobar Office Lever is the prettiest of the 3. Definitely an impressive
looking machine. It weighs 50 lbs. Cost is $1,000. There's a 5 % discount if
you buy a grinder package.
The Expobar Office Control gives 4 water setting and an auto off. One of
those set-it and forget-it things. Not as impressive looking as the Lever
but a nice unit none-the-less. Weight is 36 lbs. Price is $950 with the same
discount for a package.
The Expobar Office Pulsar looks pretty much like the Control but without the
5 button touch pads. Price is $800. Also 36 lbs. All three prices include
tax and shipping. And, as I said, the inner workings are almost the same for
all three.
This is where I have a hard time choosing. All require a 24 inch clearance
to lift out the water reservoir. The distance between my counter top and
the bottom of the cabinet is 18 inches. The CS lady said that some people
use a funnel to add water. However, there is no water level indicator on any
of the units so I would have to move the unit out about once a week to check
the water level. What I'm thinking is to put those sliders (silicon tabs?)
underneath; the kind that people put on couche and table legs in order to
make them easier to move. Will this solve the problem of moving the unit?
Would I need sliders on a 36 lb unit? Any comments and ideas are greatly
appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Frank
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4m5ivtF4jef6U1@individual.net...
> Here are some specific machines to look at that should be more efficient
> for milk drink production than would be a Silvia. I have no experience
> with any of these machines but every reason to believe that any of them
> would be a good choice. All of these are under $1000 as listed on these
> websites:
>
> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/anita
>
> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/newoscar
>
> http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/bezzera/index.htm
>
> http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/fiorenzato/briccoletta_tank_lever.htm
>
> http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/Expobar.cfm
>
>
>
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 20:20:52
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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In article <P5nLg.9971$JR5.6525@dukeread11 >,
"Frank103" <frank103@cox.net > wrote:
> Ken, thanks for the links and thanks to the others for their input. I have
> narrowed it down to Expobar.
Are you interested in milk drinks? I've only used the Control of
the 3 listed. Foaming required great skill as lots of steam
pressure was NOT a feature of the one I used!
...
>
> This is where I have a hard time choosing. All require a 24 inch clearance
> to lift out the water reservoir.
I'm with the lady. The pour hole in the Control is large enough to
hit without a funnel. I used a litre measuring cup. Had no problem
sliding the beast and pouring water strait in. (I now have an even
bigger machine and do the slide/pour dance all the time. I know
how much I use and how much it takes; about every 3 days, pour in
1.5 litres. No need for a water level indicator...
--
M for N in address to mail reply
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 17:03:13
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Frank,
I don't have any experience with the Expobars.
Maybe have a look at the Quickmill Anita, from Chris's Coffee. Quickmill
makes some nice machines, including the Andreja Premium, which some friends
of mine bought a couple of years ago and which some respected alties (Bob Y,
among others) own.
The Anita less than 16" high according to specs on the Chris Coffee webpage:
http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/anita
What I don't know is whether it would be easier to add water to the tank in
that model vs. the Expobar, or to judge how much to add when you can't
directly see the tank; you can certainly ask about that as well.
The price is $995, and maybe Chris would cut you a better deal if you
mention you are about to buy an Expobar; given a choice of an Expobar or a
Quickmill, I'd expect a bit better quality of construction and components in
the Quickmill vs. the Expobar. I've bought an espresso machine from Chris,
as have many others here, and complaints about his service are more or less
non-existent.
ken
"Frank103" <frank103@cox.net > wrote in message
news:P5nLg.9971$JR5.6525@dukeread11...
> Ken, thanks for the links and thanks to the others for their input. I have
> narrowed it down to Expobar. But I'm having a hard time choosing between 3
> models. Whole Lotte Love's compare-o-matic shows very little difference
> between the three; it's mostly cosmetic and on one model it's convenience.
> I doubt anyone could tell the difference in a taste test. According to the
> CS lady, the insides are basically the same.
>
> The Expobar Office Lever is the prettiest of the 3. Definitely an
> impressive looking machine. It weighs 50 lbs. Cost is $1,000. There's a 5
> % discount if you buy a grinder package.
>
> The Expobar Office Control gives 4 water setting and an auto off. One of
> those set-it and forget-it things. Not as impressive looking as the Lever
> but a nice unit none-the-less. Weight is 36 lbs. Price is $950 with the
> same discount for a package.
>
> The Expobar Office Pulsar looks pretty much like the Control but without
> the 5 button touch pads. Price is $800. Also 36 lbs. All three prices
> include tax and shipping. And, as I said, the inner workings are almost
> the same for all three.
>
> This is where I have a hard time choosing. All require a 24 inch clearance
> to lift out the water reservoir. The distance between my counter top and
> the bottom of the cabinet is 18 inches. The CS lady said that some people
> use a funnel to add water. However, there is no water level indicator on
> any of the units so I would have to move the unit out about once a week to
> check the water level. What I'm thinking is to put those sliders (silicon
> tabs?) underneath; the kind that people put on couche and table legs in
> order to make them easier to move. Will this solve the problem of moving
> the unit? Would I need sliders on a 36 lb unit? Any comments and ideas are
> greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
> Frank
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4m5ivtF4jef6U1@individual.net...
>> Here are some specific machines to look at that should be more efficient
>> for milk drink production than would be a Silvia. I have no experience
>> with any of these machines but every reason to believe that any of them
>> would be a good choice. All of these are under $1000 as listed on these
>> websites:
>>
>> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/anita
>>
>> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/newoscar
>>
>> http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/bezzera/index.htm
>>
>> http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/fiorenzato/briccoletta_tank_lever.htm
>>
>> http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/Expobar.cfm
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 15:53:01
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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I agree with Ken, in my experience the Racilio Silvia is not noted for
its milk frothing qualities. I do have a Nuova Simonelli Oscar that's a
milk frothing mother! Having a HX machine does improve the quality of my
milk drinks. I had a Krups steam pot that I used for steaming milk when I
had my Silvia. I surgically removed the brew group, replacing it with a
grafted on pressure safety valve. This home-made (actually it was shop-
made by expert machinists) device was the champion steam producer & is
still in use by me neighbor.
Funny thing is though; my puny little Gaggia Espresso makes better
espresso shots! Side by side with all variables as constant as I can make
them the Espresso produces more crema & more viscous extractions on both
first & second shots (pulled one after the other).
In fact, shot in & shot out, the little Espresso has equaled or
outperformed every machine I've owned - Rancilio Silvia, Gaggia Classic,
NS Oscar & Personal, LP Europiccola, La Cimbali M32 Classic, etc.
Whether this is because I have a freak machine or because I'm so familiar
with its idiosyncrasies, I don't know. I do know that if I'm whipping up
a drink for two (espresso, lattes or mochas) I reach for the Gaggia
first.
Robert (inexpert opinions=000, expert opinions=$$$) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in
news:4m5ivtF4jef6U1@individual.net:
> Here are some specific machines to look at that should be more
> efficient for milk drink production than would be a Silvia. I have no
> experience with any of these machines but every reason to believe that
> any of them would be a good choice. All of these are under $1000 as
> listed on these websites:
>
> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/anita
>
> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/newoscar
>
> http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/bezzera/index.htm
>
> http://www.1st-line.com/machines/home_mod/fiorenzato/briccoletta_tank_l
> ever.htm
>
> http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/Expobar.cfm
>
>
>
>
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 09:30:39
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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I accidentally hit send before I'd finished my quick look at several machine
websites, but it doesn't really matter. There are quite a few choices out
there but in the end, if you want to buy this sort of equipment there is no
substitute for spending a little time on the online forums and this
newsgroup before pulling the trigger, as you are going to be stuck with
whatever you decide on for a while. The top machine websites whose
businesses offer good support and after sales service include (in alphabetic
order) Chris's Coffee, Espressoparts NW, 1st Line, and Whole Latte Love. I
have made at least one purchase (although not necessarily an espresso
machine) from each of these and never had a reason to complain.
As a general rule, this sort of cheaper heat exchanger machine will return a
fairly large percentage of its initial cost when resold, if it is well
maintained, so if you do change your mind later you should be able to get
out of whatever you bought for a fairly nominal sum, factoring in the fact
that you got some use out of it.
ken
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 00:17:19
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Frank103 wrote:
> I would like to thank all who replied to my decaf question. I think Ken gave
> a very thoughtful reply and I appreciate the dissenting opinions of others.
> There was one thing that Ken said about how I should first think about what
> I'm trying to accomplish before I start spending money a machine and
> grinder. How true.
>
> I especially like cappuccino and lattees. I don't have a lot of experience
> with espresso. The few I've had seemed very bitter. A more mello espresso
> would be more appealing. I read about the Keurig pod and most people who
> reviewed it on Amazon liked it. Gave it 4 and a half stars. The most common
> criticism is that the coffee available in pods is weak, which would be a
> problem for me, and the pods are expensive. The ones I saw ranged from 40 to
> 60 cents each plus shipping and taxes where applicable.
>
> What I'm thinking of buying is the Silvia and Rocky package for $790 US. I'm
> retired so I have the time to experiment and the money isn't a problem. I'm
> just wondering if the S&R isn't overkill for cappucinnos and lattes. I'm
> sure I would eventually get around to trying to make a descent espresso but
> my main interest is C&Ls. So I'm wondering if a $20 Bialetti stovetop and a
> $20 frother (Aerolator?) wouldn't accomplish pretty much the same thing as
> the Silvia & Rocky. All comments are welcome and appreciated. Thanks in
> advance.
> Frank
Sensible intent. I went well underkill of a S&R, setup and not even
close with another close consideration, an entry type Gaggia. Just
within a bare minimum for the defination of espresso, at the veritable
pits of hell for a minumum espresso standards in the present context.
Not to be rancid, but to acknowledge an interesting blend of well
designed and implemented equipment and capablities. If you asked me to
give up a recent Peavey ValveKing purchase, and replace its high output
6L6GC valves with the sound from a transistor supplied tranny, I'd very
much feel the same way. No doubt there's a distinction to be found
through concerted effort to "get there," except for those fortunate
enough to find themselfves better off for having cut through the
"chase" in the first place, so to speak. Bitter espresso I tend to
think should be ruled out of the equation - unless coffee's innate
taste, apart from denaturing it further by caffeine extraction, is
objectionable. Whereupon, I'd have ask myself if I'd ever had a coffee
that wasn't bitter. I, like you, enjoy 'coffee-flavored' milk;- unlike
you, however, I find utterly odious decaffeinated beans. It's indeed a
stark place, as it was, to find myself questioning whether I'd give up
the caffeine -- upon investigating a reference to a naturally grown
coffee specie, effectively, without caffeine -- as it is now, to
consider giving up milked coffee. I just might, inasmuch for 10%
caffeine content beans, unless I were to find myself replacing a couple
cups of espresso with 30 or more daily. Getting back to a bare
minimum understanding of coffee at its finest - coffee beans under
pressure. Without the Italian application of pressure, as I
understand, the natural oils of coffee lack optimal extraction. Should
decaffeinated beans be a requisite, I'd question what natural oils,
indeed, remain. For cappuccino and lattees, an entry Gaggia or another
inexpensive recommendation may suit to wet the tastebuds. Decidedly so
with decaffeinated, a value bonefide Espresso machine, over dedicated
milkfroths, or such as an interest you express, which at first
appearances leads me to suspect a trendy take on coffee pod packaging.
Last is the grinder - an entry $75-$100 item. And that's as far as I
care to go, Chief, $100 on the discount for a setup over $40 on 10lbs.
of Costa Rican and Kenya AA at a two-way split. Caffeinated or not, or
some mess amidst accurements methodically worth pouring over for a fine
enough tasting cup of coffee-flavored milk. Your call.
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 04:21:27
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
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Quoth "Frank103" <frank103@cox.net >:
...
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Date: 04 Sep 2006 16:00:10
From: Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
|
On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 15:20:26 -0700, "Frank103" <frank103@cox.net >
wrote:
>I don't have a lot of experience
>with espresso. The few I've had seemed very bitter.
A lot of the "espresso" served in most of the USA is crap.
However, even really good espresso is a bit of an acquired taste for
many people.
There's also the possibility that you are particularly sensitive to
bitter flavors. I am. I always take at least a little sugar in
espresso.
>What I'm thinking of buying is the Silvia and Rocky package for $790 US. I'm
>retired so I have the time to experiment and the money isn't a problem. I'm
>just wondering if the S&R isn't overkill for cappucinnos and lattes.
I'm in no position to say anything about this, since my own personal
set-up is far over-the-top even by alt.coffee standards. What can I
say. I drove racing cars as my daily transport as a teenager. The
first guitar I bought was a Gibson Hummingbird. I don't have much,
but I like to have the "full-out, full-race" version of whatever I
have.
>So I'm wondering if a $20 Bialetti stovetop and a
>$20 frother (Aerolator?) wouldn't accomplish pretty much the same thing as
>the Silvia & Rocky.
Nope. Regardless of what it says on the box, a Bialetti or other moka
pot does not make espresso. A moka pot can make nice, full-bodied
coffee, but it's not espresso. You can make a pretty good cafe au
lait that way, but not a proper cappuccino.
I've had very good espresso from a Silvia/Rocky set-up; in the hands
of a knowledgeable person with good technique, that stuff does a fine
job.
-Shel
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Date: 04 Sep 2006 19:30:38
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: What I'm trying to accomplish
|
I agree with Sheldon's post, which is overall spot on.
The one thing I would add is that IF your interest is priily in milk
drinks, you are probably better off getting a cheap heat exchanger machine
since these will allow you to froth milk more quickly and at the same time
as you pull the shot; the Silvia is really a suboptimal machine if what you
intend is to make almost exclusively milk drinks.
I can't tell you what is the best deal these days in heat exchangers. In
general you should look at generic "e61 boxes," which have pretty good heat
stability and have generic, cheap, easy to find parts when they need
service. Others here can give you specific recommendations but one line I
would look at is Expobar.
ken
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