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Date: 08 Nov 2006 18:43:08
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Whole Foods
I think that I finally found a fresh roasted coffee that not only claims
to be better than Starbucks, but actually is.

My favorite at Starbucks has long been Sulawesi.

I tried the Village Roaster near here but didn't think their Sulawesi
was as good as Starbucks, even though they roast 3 times a week. And
they also turned me off by charging me 25 cents extra for the bag,
because I only wanted 1/4 lb to try.

But today I tried Whole Foods, which roasted some Sulawesi only 2 days
ago. They put the dates that it was roasted on the bins. This stuff is
REALLY good.

I would give Starbucks a "7" on a scale of 1-10 and the Whole Foods
Sulawesi an 8.5. Excellent taste.

I didn't care so much for their Mexican that they gave me a little
sample cup of, while I was there, but that's likely an individual taste
preference thing.



--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/




 
Date: 12 Nov 2006 10:52:04
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
> My taste is my taste. It's not like it should be up to public vote or
> anything, on whether I'm right or wrong. Jeez.

I believe that's what I said; your preferences aren't up to public vote
-- de gustibus nil est disputandem -- but that's not the claim you
made. You made a factual claim as to whether particular flavor was
present. Now that's not up for public vote, either, but the fact that
a number of people claim to have tasted that flavor has SOME
evidentiary value, and simply dismissing such testimony is . . .
arrogant.

> Or I jut found something that tastes even better to me.

Again, I believe I may have said about the same thing.



 
Date: 11 Nov 2006 13:44:42
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
> "Bill Patterson" <WHPatterson@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> I've never tasted any charcoal flavor in Starbucks ( or any other coffee
> ) that's why I see such comments as hyperbolic, and perhaps with mal
> intent from some people with agendas, possibly those who own competitor
> shops.
The fault lies in in your palate, then: when people tell you what they
taste, it is not helpful for you to say: your experience is wrong.

Now, I've never actually heard of people unable to taste carbon, but I
suppose it is possible; after all, only about 11% of the population can
taste glutamic flavors; and only something less than 20% of the
population can taste alcohol as a distinct flavor.

However, I think what is more likely is that your "sense" of what
coffee is supposed to taste like incorporates the burned flavor so the
burned flavor is part of your recognition of "coffee." Or in other
words, it's not your palate talking here; it's your flavor-memory. I
see upthread that you are praising a Sulawesi from Whole Foods, which
suggests to me you are in the process of developing your palate, all to
the good.

It's also not something you get to "buy" or not -- it's a report of
experience. But when other people report their experience to you, the
fact your experience differs is little cause for sarcasm, IMO.



  
Date: 11 Nov 2006 18:13:34
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"Bill Patterson" <WHPatterson@gmail.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
>> "Bill Patterson" <WHPatterson@gmail.com> wrote :
>>
>> I've never tasted any charcoal flavor in Starbucks ( or any other
>> coffee ) that's why I see such comments as hyperbolic, and perhaps
>> with mal intent from some people with agendas, possibly those who
>> own competitor shops.

> The fault lies in in your palate, then: when people tell you what
> they taste, it is not helpful for you to say: your experience is
> wrong.

My taste is my taste. It's not like it should be up to public vote or
anything, on whether I'm right or wrong. Jeez.

> However, I think what is more likely is that your "sense" of what
> coffee is supposed to taste like incorporates the burned flavor so
> the burned flavor is part of your recognition of "coffee." Or in
> other words, it's not your palate talking here; it's your
> flavor-memory. I see upthread that you are praising a Sulawesi from
> Whole Foods, which suggests to me you are in the process of
> developing your palate, all to the good.

Or I jut found something that tastes even better to me.



--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


 
Date: 10 Nov 2006 21:58:06
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:

> Nah. But I did find out that Novo has a retail store in Arvada and that
> IS worth the effort.

Ah!

There's hope. Indulge the temptation to buy their coffee.

:-)



  
Date: 11 Nov 2006 00:30:49
From: I Ms Rights
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
>
>> Nah. But I did find out that Novo has a retail store in Arvada and
that
>> IS worth the effort.
>
> Ah!
>
> There's hope. Indulge the temptation to buy their coffee.
>
>:-)

Indulgence instead of abstinence, that's what I always say. :)

This Whole Foods Sulawesi, if they keep it at all consistent, will keep
me from every buying Starbucks Sulwesi again though.

But if Novo has something equally as good as the WF beans, I'll have two
choices. They don't make Sulawesi though, and I'm pretty hung up on that
richness and complexity of flavor. What I think of as culinary orgasm.

--
IF YOU'RE NOT VOTING FOR LIBERTARIANS, YOU'RE ONLY VOTING FOR YOUR
RULERS! If the government wasn't allowed to initiate force, the vote
wouldn't be that important. It's only important because they can.

Why is it that the liberals define things as slavery that arenít
slavery, like voluntary mutually consenting employer-employee
relationships, while not defining things as slavery that are slavery,
like taxation?



 
Date: 10 Nov 2006 21:54:29
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
> "rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com> wrote :
> > On Nov 8, 8:33 pm, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lo...@coffee.zzz> wrote:
> >> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
> >> that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
> >> different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?
> >
> > Good grief.
> >
> > Starbucks coffee is famously charcoal.
>
> To their detractors maybe, those who are jealous of their success,
> competitors who are hurt by them and want something to smear them with?

Your tone doesn't suggest this is a good faith conversation, IMO. I
could be wrong. But you're seeming pretty cynical. Were I to requite
your lack of good faith, I might call you a toady and a sycophant,
wishing to enjoy the cultural ride on the limo of their success.

But I won't go there. ;-)

Being a detractor doesn't mean being a gratuitous detractor. I cited a
reason. Their roasts are too dark, as a rule. If you seriously wish to
argue otherwise, you'll find you're arguing not with a crowd of usenet
wackos, but with a substantial corpus of literature that delivers the
opinion of a vast number of independent coffee experts whose livelihood
doesn't depend on either Starbucks' success or failure.

> > Reluctantly, I just tried a sip of their canned "cappucino" stuff
> > tonight, for the first time. Even THAT is charcoal with dairy.
>
> Sounds just plain silly.

Why? What on earth can you mean? I can't help but think you're
attributing something other than sincerity to my reks.

> > Why one earth would home roasters with complete control over their
> > product, an incredible selection of coffees available from diverse
> > sources in a rich and expanding specialty ket, and no vulnerability
> > to ket vagaries (because they're not competitors of *$) be engaging
> > in sour grapes?
>
> Maybe they just resent Starbucks, I dunno.

You're suffering from a lack of imagination. Why not just chalk it up
to the more probable cause -- they've experienced something much
better, they've seen that a large corporation has not offered "full
disclosure" when it comes to the range of aesthetic experiences coffee
beans are able to deliver, and they feel a bit aggravated that the
culture has so uncritically danced whenever Starbucks struck up the
tune.

> > Different tastes, sure. But it's utterly undeniable that among popular
> > coffee roasters, Starbucks ranks among the darkest. It's not even
> > disputable.

> You're the expert, I just know what I like. :)

No problem. Were this a bad faith conversation, I'd say you've been
hoodwinked as a consequence of having lived in a range of experiences
that's been conditioned by a company you've misplaced your trust in --
a company that's artificially limited your experiences and told you
"this is great coffee."

But this isn't a bad faith conversation, so I won't go there. ;-)

- Scott



  
Date: 11 Nov 2006 00:28:13
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
>> "rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com> wrote :
>> > On Nov 8, 8:33 pm, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lo...@coffee.zzz>
>> > wrote:
>> >> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've
>> >> heard that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like
>> >> someone with different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?
>> >
>> > Good grief.
>> >
>> > Starbucks coffee is famously charcoal.
>>
>> To their detractors maybe, those who are jealous of their success,
>> competitors who are hurt by them and want something to smear them
>> with?
>
> Your tone doesn't suggest this is a good faith conversation, IMO. I
> could be wrong. But you're seeming pretty cynical. Were I to requite
> your lack of good faith, I might call you a toady and a sycophant,
> wishing to enjoy the cultural ride on the limo of their success.
>
> But I won't go there. ;-)
>
> Being a detractor doesn't mean being a gratuitous detractor. I cited
> a reason. Their roasts are too dark, as a rule. If you seriously wish
> to argue otherwise, you'll find you're arguing not with a crowd of
> usenet wackos, but with a substantial corpus of literature that
> delivers the opinion of a vast number of independent coffee experts
> whose livelihood doesn't depend on either Starbucks' success or
> failure.

Ok well in that case I'll defer to those more knowledgeable than my self
on the subject.

>> > Reluctantly, I just tried a sip of their canned "cappucino" stuff
>> > tonight, for the first time. Even THAT is charcoal with dairy.
>>
>> Sounds just plain silly.
>
> Why? What on earth can you mean? I can't help but think you're
> attributing something other than sincerity to my reks.

No, it just doesn't make sense to me. I've never seen or tasted charcoal
in Starbucks or any other roast. ( at least so far )

>> > Why one earth would home roasters with complete control over their
>> > product, an incredible selection of coffees available from diverse
>> > sources in a rich and expanding specialty ket, and no
>> > vulnerability to ket vagaries (because they're not competitors
>> > of *$) be engaging in sour grapes?
>>
>> Maybe they just resent Starbucks, I dunno.
>
> You're suffering from a lack of imagination. Why not just chalk it up
> to the more probable cause -- they've experienced something much
> better, they've seen that a large corporation has not offered "full
> disclosure" when it comes to the range of aesthetic experiences
> coffee beans are able to deliver, and they feel a bit aggravated that
> the culture has so uncritically danced whenever Starbucks struck up
> the tune.

Ok, like I said, I'll defer to those more knowledgeable then, and admit
that I'm a relative newbie to gourmet coffees.

>> > Different tastes, sure. But it's utterly undeniable that among
>> > popular coffee roasters, Starbucks ranks among the darkest. It's
>> > not even disputable.
>
>> You're the expert, I just know what I like. :)
>
> No problem. Were this a bad faith conversation, I'd say you've been
> hoodwinked as a consequence of having lived in a range of experiences
> that's been conditioned by a company you've misplaced your trust in
> -- a company that's artificially limited your experiences and told
> you "this is great coffee."

They never told me a thing, it was just the best I'd experienced thus
far. I wasn't hoodwinked, it was all I'd experienced because I was
hooked on the stuff, it was so much better than what I'd ever tried
before.

But now I'm starting to turn my nose up at Starbucks Sulawesi, in the
face of the Whole Foods Sulawesi, it seems THAT much better to my taste
buds.

> But this isn't a bad faith conversation, so I won't go there. ;-)

Oh get off it already. You were off base with that all along. Like Harry
Browne once said in his book "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World",
we can never have 100% of the information that there might be on
anything. We just have to decide based on what we have or see at the
time. So we all do that, we go with what we have and know.

When new evidence arises, we can change our minds. It's the human
condition. No shame in it.


--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


 
Date: 10 Nov 2006 07:10:13
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
> that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
> different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?
>
> What do these people like, green barely roasted beans?

On the theory that these very trollish comments are in fact innocent .
. .

It's not subjective and it's not sour grapes: during the roasting
process, the early part of the roast emphasizes the volatiles, so there
is a point -- generally characterized as a "full city roast" at which
the beans are toasted and the volatiles reach a nut-like maximum of
their particular potential flavors (and consequently the
country-of-origin distinctiveness is at its maximum). Continuing
roasting past that point drives volatiles progressively off and burns
-- charcoalizes -- the bean, so that the distinctions between the
different origins is gradually destroyed and the bitterness increases.
The bean can take on a definite "charcoal" flavor a lot of people find
objectionable.

The bitterness seems to be an intrinsic quality of the extended roast;
the charcoal flavor seems to have something to do with the particulars
of how it is roasted, rather than the degree of the roast: I speculate
it may be related to the speed of the roast or the degree of heat used.
A any rate, every coffee I've ever tasted from Starbucks has a
pronounced "burned" flavor.

The division also goes more along the lines of the kind of coffee
people like. I'm a cafe a filtre kinda guy, and I like mine without
additives of any kind, so it's city roast for me -- when I can get it.
Darker roasts lend themselves to adulteration, particularly with milk.

It's very irritating and frustrating that this current cycle of coffee
so overwhelmingly concentrates on darker roasts (Vienna roast to
espresso) that city roasts are becoming very difficult to find.
Consequently, people who don't like dark roasts may become snappish.



  
Date: 10 Nov 2006 15:00:40
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"Bill Patterson" <WHPatterson@gmail.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
>> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
>> that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
>> different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?
>>
>> What do these people like, green barely roasted beans?
>
> On the theory that these very trollish comments are in fact innocent .
> . .

Yes.

Trolling would be calling you nasty names in hopes of a similar
response.

> It's not subjective and it's not sour grapes: during the roasting
> process, the early part of the roast emphasizes the volatiles, so
there
> is a point -- generally characterized as a "full city roast" at which
> the beans are toasted and the volatiles reach a nut-like maximum of
> their particular potential flavors (and consequently the
> country-of-origin distinctiveness is at its maximum). Continuing
> roasting past that point drives volatiles progressively off and burns
> -- charcoalizes -- the bean, so that the distinctions between the
> different origins is gradually destroyed and the bitterness increases.
> The bean can take on a definite "charcoal" flavor a lot of people find
> objectionable.
>
> The bitterness seems to be an intrinsic quality of the extended roast;
> the charcoal flavor seems to have something to do with the particulars
> of how it is roasted, rather than the degree of the roast:

I've never tasted any charcoal flavor in Starbucks ( or any other coffee
) that's why I see such comments as hyperbolic, and perhaps with mal
intent from some people with agendas, possibly those who own competitor
shops.

> I speculate
> it may be related to the speed of the roast or the degree of heat
used.
> A any rate, every coffee I've ever tasted from Starbucks has a
> pronounced "burned" flavor.

I don't buy that.

> The division also goes more along the lines of the kind of coffee
> people like. I'm a cafe a filtre kinda guy, and I like mine without
> additives of any kind, so it's city roast for me -- when I can get it.
> Darker roasts lend themselves to adulteration, particularly with milk.
>
> It's very irritating and frustrating that this current cycle of coffee
> so overwhelmingly concentrates on darker roasts (Vienna roast to
> espresso) that city roasts are becoming very difficult to find.
> Consequently, people who don't like dark roasts may become snappish.

Poor baby. :)




--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


 
Date: 10 Nov 2006 06:55:34
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Heat + Beans wrote:
> The Brentwood store (San Vicente) definitely has a roaster. 90% sure
> the Santa Monica does (23rd and Wilshire). I can't recal whether
> Culver Cty does (Barrington/National)
> tin
I think I've been in the Culver City store once and I have a vague
memory you may be right about that. As it happens I'm going to be at
San Vicente and Wilshire today, so I may take a walk up San Vicente at
lunch hour and follow my nose. (If this very spoiled Abyssinian will
let me go at all!)

Thanks for the tip!



 
Date: 10 Nov 2006 04:53:14
From: Felix
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl writes:
> I try to avoid downtown because of the parking hassles and costs.

I'm sure it's worth an effort now and then. The DAM was another
highlight of my visit, which occurred before its expansion began.

The coffee I enjoyed at Diedrich wasn't great, but Starbucks was
already quite dominant and I agree with Scott et al about its tendency
to be on the dark side. I was attending a convention, and met someone
who seemed very pleased about finding Starbucks there. I mentioned
Diedrich, suggesting that she take the opportunity to try something
different. She wasn't interested. One way or another, Starbucks
inspires passion :-)

Returning to the nominal topic, Allegro coffee never made much of an
impression on me before on-site roasting began. I haven't tried it
recently. On the other hand, when traveling I look for Whole Foods
because it's a great place to buy a light breakfast, including a good
cup of coffee.


Felix



  
Date: 10 Nov 2006 14:54:18
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"Felix" <felixyen@hotmail.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl writes:
>> I try to avoid downtown because of the parking hassles and costs.
>
> I'm sure it's worth an effort now and then.

Nah. But I did find out that Novo has a retail store in Arvada and that
IS worth the effort.

> The DAM was another
> highlight of my visit, which occurred before its expansion began.
>
> The coffee I enjoyed at Diedrich wasn't great, but Starbucks was
> already quite dominant and I agree with Scott et al about its tendency
> to be on the dark side.

"Come to the dark side luke". :)

> I was attending a convention, and met someone
> who seemed very pleased about finding Starbucks there. I mentioned
> Diedrich, suggesting that she take the opportunity to try something
> different. She wasn't interested. One way or another, Starbucks
> inspires passion :-)

Well compared to everything before it, it was the best with me for many
years. And they are a nice place to find a comfy chair and kick back. I
like those soft chairs ( though they usually only have 2 ) and wish all
coffee shops had them.




--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


 
Date: 09 Nov 2006 17:05:47
From: Felix
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl reveals:
> But so far, this WF Sulawesi is the best coffee I've ever tasted.
> Personal taste, like you say.

And a reflection of what you have (not) tasted. There's a lot of coffee
out there ...

To me, your search is ironic because one of the highlights of my only
visit to Denver was a Delectable Egg skillet breakfast accompanied by
fresh-squeezed grapefruit juice, and a cup of coffee from the Diedrich
about a block away on 16th. Is it still there?

On the other hand, I know that Starbucks does sell coffee that's
roasted lighter than alties expect. They couldn't survive in the OCS
ket otherwise.


Felix



  
Date: 09 Nov 2006 19:17:14
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"Felix" <felixyen@hotmail.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl reveals:
>> But so far, this WF Sulawesi is the best coffee I've ever tasted.
>> Personal taste, like you say.
>
> And a reflection of what you have (not) tasted. There's a lot of
coffee
> out there ...
>
> To me, your search is ironic because one of the highlights of my only
> visit to Denver was a Delectable Egg skillet breakfast accompanied by
> fresh-squeezed grapefruit juice, and a cup of coffee from the Diedrich
> about a block away on 16th. Is it still there?

Don't know, I try to avoid downtown because of the parking hassles and
costs.

> On the other hand, I know that Starbucks does sell coffee that's
> roasted lighter than alties expect. They couldn't survive in the OCS
> ket otherwise.

Hmm, interesting. Well it was the first coffee that I liked after
weaning from the canned industrial preground vacuum packed crapola that
companies poison their employees with ( which now tastes to me, like
horse piss strained through a cardboard box ) and starting to grind my
own at least, but I think my eyes are being opened even further now.



--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


 
Date: 09 Nov 2006 10:37:08
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
The Brentwood store (San Vicente) definitely has a roaster. 90% sure
the Santa Monica does (23rd and Wilshire). I can't recal whether
Culver Cty does (Barrington/National)
tin


Bill Patterson wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> > Try another store sometime.
>
> I get to 3 different Whole Foods on a regular or semi-regular basis,
> and none of them has an in-house roaster; I would have noticed. (For
> the sake of reference: 3rd and Beverly, Santa Monica and Fairfax,
> Westwood Village). I'll keep looking around.



  
Date: 09 Nov 2006 20:07:37
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On 9 Nov 2006 10:37:08 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com >
wrote:

>The Brentwood store (San Vicente) definitely has a roaster. 90% sure
>the Santa Monica does (23rd and Wilshire). I can't recal whether
>Culver Cty does (Barrington/National)
>tin
>
>
>Bill Patterson wrote:
>> Steve wrote:
>> > Try another store sometime.
>>
>> I get to 3 different Whole Foods on a regular or semi-regular basis,
>> and none of them has an in-house roaster; I would have noticed. (For
>> the sake of reference: 3rd and Beverly, Santa Monica and Fairfax,
>> Westwood Village). I'll keep looking around.

WF seems to run the stores differently depending upon the ket.
I think shall posted about Intelligentsia being carried in the
southern Calif. stores but we never saw it up here.
Good luck.


 
Date: 09 Nov 2006 09:46:33
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Whole Foods

Steve wrote:
> Try another store sometime.

I get to 3 different Whole Foods on a regular or semi-regular basis,
and none of them has an in-house roaster; I would have noticed. (For
the sake of reference: 3rd and Beverly, Santa Monica and Fairfax,
Westwood Village). I'll keep looking around.



 
Date: 09 Nov 2006 03:41:58
From: David G. Imber
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:43:08 -0600, Coffee Lover Girl
<Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz > wrote:


>But today I tried Whole Foods, which roasted some Sulawesi only 2 days
>ago. They put the dates that it was roasted on the bins. This stuff is
>REALLY good.
>

Our Manhattan Whole Foods stores Allegro coffees may be the
second best single-origin coffees in town. Roast averages only about
36 hours old as there's a great turnover.

Last week they were featuring an Addado Sun-Dried Yrgacheffe
that's rich and complex and about as good as the best I've had
anywhere. I like Whole Foods/Allegro a lot, but this one really
knocked me over.

DGI



  
Date: 09 Nov 2006 03:48:49
From: David G. Imber
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 03:41:58 -0500, David G. Imber
<imber@maniform.com > wrote:


> Last week they were featuring an Addado Sun-Dried Yrgacheffe
>that's rich and complex

Spelled it wrong, but here's more about it FYI:

http://www.allegrocoffee.com/page.php/id/134

DGI


 
Date: 08 Nov 2006 19:07:40
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On Nov 8, 8:33 pm, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lo...@coffee.zzz > wrote:
> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
> that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
> different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?

Good grief.

Starbucks coffee is famously charcoal.

Reluctantly, I just tried a sip of their canned "cappucino" stuff
tonight, for the first time. Even THAT is charcoal with dairy.

Why one earth would home roasters with complete control over their
product, an incredible selection of coffees available from diverse
sources in a rich and expanding specialty ket, and no vulnerability
to ket vagaries (because they're not competitors of *$) be engaging
in sour grapes?

Different tastes, sure. But it's utterly undeniable that among popular
coffee roasters, Starbucks ranks among the darkest. It's not even
disputable.



  
Date: 08 Nov 2006 21:27:56
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com > wrote :

> On Nov 8, 8:33 pm, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lo...@coffee.zzz> wrote:
>> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
>> that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
>> different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?
>
> Good grief.
>
> Starbucks coffee is famously charcoal.

To their detractors maybe, those who are jealous of their success,
competitors who are hurt by them and want something to smear them with?

> Reluctantly, I just tried a sip of their canned "cappucino" stuff
> tonight, for the first time. Even THAT is charcoal with dairy.

Sounds just plain silly.

> Why one earth would home roasters with complete control over their
> product, an incredible selection of coffees available from diverse
> sources in a rich and expanding specialty ket, and no vulnerability
> to ket vagaries (because they're not competitors of *$) be engaging
> in sour grapes?

Maybe they just resent Starbucks, I dunno.

> Different tastes, sure. But it's utterly undeniable that among popular
> coffee roasters, Starbucks ranks among the darkest. It's not even
> disputable.


You're the expert, I just know what I like. :)

--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


   
Date: 09 Nov 2006 06:43:23
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
> "rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com> wrote :
>> Starbucks coffee is famously charcoal.
>
> To their detractors maybe, those who are jealous of their success,
> competitors who are hurt by them and want something to smear them with?

No, it's pretty apparent to anyone who has ever roasted his own coffee,
and has learned the difference in tastes between levels of roast. Oh,
"famously charcoal" may be over the top as an expression, but it's
famously overroasted, for sure.

--
St. John
If I'd known computer science was going to be like this, I'd never have
given up being a rock 'n' roll star.
-G. Hirst


    
Date: 09 Nov 2006 12:43:42
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com > wrote :

> Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
>> "rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com> wrote :
>>> Starbucks coffee is famously charcoal.
>>
>> To their detractors maybe, those who are jealous of their success,
>> competitors who are hurt by them and want something to smear them
with?
>
> No, it's pretty apparent to anyone who has ever roasted his own
coffee,
> and has learned the difference in tastes between levels of roast. Oh,
> "famously charcoal" may be over the top as an expression, but it's
> famously overroasted, for sure.
>

Well I won't know until someone can show me something that seems better
to me, to try in the west Denver area.

I know I like Sulawesi, that's for sure, it's my favorite. Now all I
need to do is find some fresh roasted to try, that's less well done, as
you suggest, so I can compare. I'm open minded.

--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


     
Date: 09 Nov 2006 14:02:16
From:
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
.
>>
>
>Well I won't know until someone can show me something that seems better
>to me, to try in the west Denver area.
>
>I know I like Sulawesi, that's for sure, it's my favorite. Now all I
>need to do is find some fresh roasted to try, that's less well done, as
>you suggest, so I can compare. I'm open minded.
Give these folks a try.
http://www.novocoffee.com/


      
Date: 09 Nov 2006 16:10:51
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Another thing I just noticed. The remaining Starbucks Sulawesi beans are a
flat dull brown, but the Whole Foods beans are shiny, sticky and oily
looking. They must be the fresher ones, where that incredible flavor is
coming from. It tastes great.

And I have no financial interest at all in Whole Foods, nor am I even a
granola cruncher liberal type, I'm a libertarian. :)


--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


       
Date: 09 Nov 2006 16:10:27
From:
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:10:51 -0600, Coffee Lover Girl
<Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz > wrote:

>Another thing I just noticed. The remaining Starbucks Sulawesi beans are a
>flat dull brown, but the Whole Foods beans are shiny, sticky and oily
>looking. They must be the fresher ones, where that incredible flavor is
>coming from. It tastes great.
>
>And I have no financial interest at all in Whole Foods, nor am I even a
>granola cruncher liberal type, I'm a libertarian. :)
Coffee Myth
Freshness does not have anything to do with "Oil"
It's mostly a result of the degree of roast. As a general rule "Darker
Roasts" have more surface oil. A case where that is not as indicative
is with decafs, they produce oil sooner in the roast progression.

Sounds like the *$ Sulawesi is roasted lighter then WF coffee.
As a friend of mine says, " it's in the cup". If you like it, that's
all that matters. But as others have pointed out, if you have never
had the opportunity to try coffee that has been roasted to maximize
its best points, then you have missed what coffee is really about.

You have some great coffee houses in Denver. Here's a good link to
help you in your coffee quest.
http://denvercoffee.blogspot.com/



        
Date: 09 Nov 2006 17:54:38
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
ospam@star.net wrote :

> On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:10:51 -0600, Coffee Lover Girl
><Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz> wrote:
>
>>Another thing I just noticed. The remaining Starbucks Sulawesi beans
>>are a flat dull brown, but the Whole Foods beans are shiny, sticky
>>and oily looking. They must be the fresher ones, where that
>>incredible flavor is coming from. It tastes great.
>>
>>And I have no financial interest at all in Whole Foods, nor am I even
>>a granola cruncher liberal type, I'm a libertarian. :)
> Coffee Myth
> Freshness does not have anything to do with "Oil"
> It's mostly a result of the degree of roast. As a general rule
> "Darker Roasts" have more surface oil. A case where that is not as
> indicative is with decafs, they produce oil sooner in the roast
> progression.
>
> Sounds like the *$ Sulawesi is roasted lighter then WF coffee.
> As a friend of mine says, " it's in the cup". If you like it, that's
> all that matters. But as others have pointed out, if you have never
> had the opportunity to try coffee that has been roasted to maximize
> its best points, then you have missed what coffee is really about.

I'm ready!

But so far, this WF Sulawesi is the best coffee I've ever tasted.
Personal taste, like you say.

> You have some great coffee houses in Denver. Here's a good link to
> help you in your coffee quest.
> http://denvercoffee.blogspot.com/

Thanks!





--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


   
Date: 08 Nov 2006 21:58:40
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
But you are brewing drip; most of us are brewing espresso. There may be a
difference there. However, I find Starbucks too dark even for drip, but I'm
only able to buy grocery store Starbucks that has probably been in their
warehouse since last Christmas. No Starbucks shops within 150 miles, so
I've not tasted their in-shop product. As for their success, I think it's
more due to being a popular place than for the taste of its coffee. And
don't most of their customers drink it as a flavoring for a glass of milk?

"Coffee Lover Girl" <Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz > wrote in message
news:rqydnWywa8ShPc_YnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@forethought.net...
> "rasqual" <scott.quardt@gmail.com> wrote :
>
>> On Nov 8, 8:33 pm, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lo...@coffee.zzz> wrote:
>>> And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
>>> that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
>>> different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?>
> --
> Coffee Lover




    
Date: 09 Nov 2006 00:21:28
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote :

> But you are brewing drip; most of us are brewing espresso. There may
> be a difference there. However, I find Starbucks too dark even for
> drip, but I'm only able to buy grocery store Starbucks that has
> probably been in their warehouse since last Christmas. No Starbucks
> shops within 150 miles, so I've not tasted their in-shop product. As
> for their success, I think it's more due to being a popular place
> than for the taste of its coffee.

Nopers. I never really enjoyed coffee that much until they came along.
It's the flavor.

> And don't most of their customers
> drink it as a flavoring for a glass of milk?

Nope, they make all kinds of drinks, the whole spectrum from latte to
espresso to cappucino to iced coffee.



--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


     
Date: 09 Nov 2006 07:39:28
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Lattes and cappuccinos are milk drinks. A darker roast works in them to
bring the coffee flavor through. The same coffee served alone would taste
"burnt" to some people. The morning gathering place locally for the "coffee
crowd" [retired guys checking in to see how many made it through the night]
serves so-so coffee, definitely not great, but no one complains because they
didn't come for the taste.

"Coffee Lover Girl" <Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz > wrote in message
news:FPGdndS4QfB1Vc_YnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@forethought.net...
> "Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net> wrote :
>
>> And don't most of their customers
>> drink it as a flavoring for a glass of milk?
>
> Nope, they make all kinds of drinks, the whole spectrum from latte to
> espresso to cappucino to iced coffee.
> --
> Coffee Lover




 
Date: 08 Nov 2006 18:23:19
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
Heat + Beans wrote:
> I shop at one of three local Whole Foods a couple of times a week. Each
> has its roaster going much of the time . . .

Curious. I've had very poor results with Whole Foods loose-bin coffee.
It's mostly overroasted to begin with (which wouldn't bother anyone
who thinks Starbucks is a viable standard, but it's a down for me), and
it always has that "hollow" taste that stale beans get when the
volatiles are allowed to dissipate and it stands too long in the
bin.[*] Might as well drink Folgers-in-a-can.

[* Giggle. Reminds me of that coffee bar that appeared on Santa Monica
Boulevard in Boys Town a few years back that advertised proudly they
eliminated the "wild flavors" from their coffees -- i.e., let them go
stale before brewing. They lasted just about three months].



  
Date: 09 Nov 2006 04:47:43
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On 8 Nov 2006 18:23:19 -0800, "Bill Patterson" <WHPatterson@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Curious. I've had very poor results with Whole Foods loose-bin coffee.
> It's mostly overroasted to begin with (which wouldn't bother anyone
>who thinks Starbucks is a viable standard, but it's a down for me), and
>it always has that "hollow" taste that stale beans get when the
>volatiles are allowed to dissipate and it stands too long in the
>bin.[*]

Bill, I think it depends on the store.
I've picked up various bin coffees from various WF when I've been too
short of time to roast and had the disappointment you described.
OTOH, our local store does a very nice job, and in fact had a Yirg
special reserve this weekend that was a fruit-bomb.
Try another store sometime.


  
Date: 08 Nov 2006 22:12:31
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On 2006-11-09, Bill Patterson <WHPatterson@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> Curious. I've had very poor results with Whole Foods loose-bin coffee.
> It's mostly overroasted....

Does your WF have a roaster? It's a Sivetz-type fluid bed unit you
can't miss. Not all WFs have them. If not, who knows how old their
coffee is. I've seen a couple batches of coffee roasting at our local
WF and they both stopped at city, so I know they are not of the
charcoal bean mindset. The roaster is computer and
multi-pid controlled and strictly a script-kiddie operation. I've
never bought their coffee and tried it because it's all $12+ per lb
and I roast my own. WF will gladly sell you their green beans, but at
the same $12+ lb price. Sure, pal. :p

nb


   
Date: 09 Nov 2006 00:22:53
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote :

> On 2006-11-09, Bill Patterson <WHPatterson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Curious. I've had very poor results with Whole Foods loose-bin
coffee.
>> It's mostly overroasted....
>
> Does your WF have a roaster? It's a Sivetz-type fluid bed unit you
> can't miss. Not all WFs have them. If not, who knows how old their
> coffee is. I've seen a couple batches of coffee roasting at our local
> WF and they both stopped at city, so I know they are not of the
> charcoal bean mindset. The roaster is computer and
> multi-pid controlled and strictly a script-kiddie operation. I've
> never bought their coffee and tried it because it's all $12+ per lb
> and I roast my own. WF will gladly sell you their green beans, but at
> the same $12+ lb price. Sure, pal. :p

Ok well where do you get your green beans then?

And do you roast in a hot air corn popper? :)


--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


    
Date: 09 Nov 2006 06:21:45
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
On 2006-11-09, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz > wrote:

> Ok well where do you get your green beans then?
>
> And do you roast in a hot air corn popper? :)

I buy all my green beans from Sweet ia's. I roast in a Poppery II.
Often, a friend will roast up a batch or two for me in his Hot Top.

nb


     
Date: 09 Nov 2006 12:44:39
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote :

> On 2006-11-09, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz> wrote:
>
>> Ok well where do you get your green beans then?
>>
>> And do you roast in a hot air corn popper? :)
>
> I buy all my green beans from Sweet ia's. I roast in a Poppery II.
> Often, a friend will roast up a batch or two for me in his Hot Top.
>
>

Do they sell the green beans in Sulawesi?



--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


      
Date: 12 Nov 2006 17:24:32
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Whole Foods

"Coffee Lover Girl" <Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz > wrote in message
news:ufmdnawMxNuK6s7YnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@forethought.net...
> notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote :
>
> > On 2006-11-09, Coffee Lover Girl <Coffee_Lover@coffee.zzz> wrote:
> >
> >> Ok well where do you get your green beans then?
> >>
> >> And do you roast in a hot air corn popper? :)
> >
> > I buy all my green beans from Sweet ia's. I roast in a Poppery II.
> > Often, a friend will roast up a batch or two for me in his Hot Top.
> >
> >
>
> Do they sell the green beans in Sulawesi?
>
if you mean does SM sell Sulawesi green then usually yes but none in right
now:
http://www.sweetias.com/coffee.indonesia.sulawesi.html




 
Date: 08 Nov 2006 17:43:58
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
I shop at one of three local Whole Foods a couple of times a week. Each
has its roaster going much of the time, and I typically see a few
roasts that are very appealing (and others that seem really
ridiculous). I'm glad to hear your report, because I can't think of
any reason why their coffee (if carefully selected!) shouldn't be very
good. I have too much fun roasting my own, but Whole Foods would
certainly be someplace I'd try. Plus, there'd be no problem buying
small amounts that you'd want to put together in a blend.
tin


c
Coffee Lover Girl wrote:
> I think that I finally found a fresh roasted coffee that not only claims
> to be better than Starbucks, but actually is.
>
> My favorite at Starbucks has long been Sulawesi.
>
> I tried the Village Roaster near here but didn't think their Sulawesi
> was as good as Starbucks, even though they roast 3 times a week. And
> they also turned me off by charging me 25 cents extra for the bag,
> because I only wanted 1/4 lb to try.
>
> But today I tried Whole Foods, which roasted some Sulawesi only 2 days
> ago. They put the dates that it was roasted on the bins. This stuff is
> REALLY good.
>
> I would give Starbucks a "7" on a scale of 1-10 and the Whole Foods
> Sulawesi an 8.5. Excellent taste.
>
> I didn't care so much for their Mexican that they gave me a little
> sample cup of, while I was there, but that's likely an individual taste
> preference thing.
>
>
>
> --
> Coffee Lover
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
> http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/



  
Date: 10 Nov 2006 13:57:50
From:
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
In alt.coffee, Heat + Beans <heatgunroast@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm glad to hear your report, because I can't think of
> any reason why their coffee (if carefully selected!) shouldn't be very
> good.

Indeed it is very good.


I have too much fun roasting my own, but Whole Foods would
> certainly be someplace I'd try.

I get my coffee there if I run outof green to roast. It is
surprisingly good.


   
Date: 10 Nov 2006 14:55:33
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote :

> In alt.coffee, Heat + Beans <heatgunroast@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm glad to hear your report, because I can't think of
>> any reason why their coffee (if carefully selected!) shouldn't be
very
>> good.
>
> Indeed it is very good.
>
>
> I have too much fun roasting my own, but Whole Foods would
>> certainly be someplace I'd try.
>
> I get my coffee there if I run outof green to roast. It is
> surprisingly good.
>


Try WF's Sulawesi. It has flavors in it and depth of flavor, that I've
rarely tasted before.


--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/


  
Date: 08 Nov 2006 20:33:00
From: Coffee Lover Girl
Subject: Re: Whole Foods
"Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com > wrote :

> I shop at one of three local Whole Foods a couple of times a week.
> Each has its roaster going much of the time, and I typically see a
> few roasts that are very appealing (and others that seem really
> ridiculous). I'm glad to hear your report, because I can't think of
> any reason why their coffee (if carefully selected!) shouldn't be
> very good. I have too much fun roasting my own, but Whole Foods
> would certainly be someplace I'd try. Plus, there'd be no problem
> buying small amounts that you'd want to put together in a blend.
> tin
>

I thoroughly enjoyed the Sulawesi I brewed in the Technivorm 741 from
them today. Very yummy.

And the other poster who complained of over roasted beans? I've heard
that said about Starbucks too and it just sounds like someone with
different tastes, possibly for sour grapes?

What do these people like, green barely roasted beans?

--
Coffee Lover

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coffee_/
http://pleasehelpjennifer.com/