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Date: 04 Mar 2007 22:10:43
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
"wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
at local restaurants and cafes.

Who cares?

I ask this in all sincerity.

Many of us have other interests, including such things as fine food, wine,
photography, whatever. If Dennys or Red Lobster steals the name of some
gastronomic dish and applies it to some warmed over abomination, do you
think that foodies even notice? How about box wine; do the people on wine
forums become unglued when Consumer Reports extols the virtue of some
horrific plonk available at the local Safeway? When was the last time you
heard of the local chapter of Les Amis de Vin picketing a Dennys because
their wine list is poor? When you see a really bad photography in your
local paper, do you call the editor to complain because as a photographer it
offends your sensibilities?

So why do we do this with mass ket coffee and espresso beverages? Who
cares if the local Italian restaurant (that admittedly wouldn't know what
"al dente" meant in relation to pasta, if you asked them) serves a 6 oz
"espresso?"

Why do we bother ourselves over this sort of nonsense, other than for the
sheer pleasure of how good it feels after you stop banging your head against
the wall?

Food for thought.

ken






 
Date: 12 Mar 2007 14:31:18
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote:

> I'm talking about the preoccupation that
>people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
>coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
>"wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
>at local restaurants and cafes.
>
>Who cares?

Imagine for a moment that for the past 60 years, real beef had been
completely unavailable in the US. Imagine that Wendy's, McD's, BK were
vying continuously to have their big macs and whatevers recognized as
the best New York Strip on earth. Imagine that prominent food and wine
critics solemnly tasted these "NY Strips" and decided which one
represented the apogee of beef.

Now imagine, you stumble into some dive and get served an honest to
goodness, 2 inch thick, aged and bled NY Strip.

Wouldn't you be doing the wild eyed prophet thing too?


 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 20:30:36
From: Felix
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Ken Fox responds to Mike Hartigan:
> I'm not specifically picking on your response but
> it was a convenient place to put this comment.

Likewise ... Several (many?) people have made good points in this
thread. It's hard to agree with everone :-)

> The sales of cheap wine and bad food are every
> bit as important in their own industries as the
> sale of bad coffee is within the area of "specialty
> coffee."

That might be the case with food, since not eating isn't viable, but
wine is avoidable and many wine sellers don't sell cheap wine.

> Yet I never hear foodies obcess about bad chain
> store food, as if it makes any difference to their
> enjoyment of good food.

I also have the impulse to make an ill-advised coffee order now and
then, but ordering an entire meal ... instead of hoping that Lucy
won't pull away the football, I hope she will, because it's a brick. I
don't do that very often, and when I do, I don't tell anyone. (I will
admit to running water through a hotel coffeemaker to rinse it, and
then drinking the water to find out if it tastes like plastic, just
because Randy ate Grindz!)

> Likewise, I don't hear wine afficienados talking
> incessently about bad wine sold on the mass
> ket.

It's boring to make the same comments about yet another industrial
product refined to resemble ... After a while the complaints are
condensed to the point where someone offers his or her favorite
derogatory sumy (e.g. "modern") and everyone else just nods in
agreement.

> I submit that there is just as much (or more) bad
> food and bad wine out there as there is bad coffee.

I never liked the coffee-wine analogy, and think this is another
situation where it fails. At the superkets I visit, the coffee
tends to be displayed together, and the price range isn't that great.
It's presented as a single category. On the other hand, even a small
wine department/store will make an effort to categorize its products,
and offer a range of price points.

In short, wine aficianados don't talk incessantly about bad wine
because they don't shop that category, whereas coffee people worry
about bad coffee because its ket hasn't evolved as far. Three days
ago, I bought Green Mountain beans, my first purchase of the deCadmus
era: 24 oz. for $8.49 plus tax :-)


Felix



 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 12:01:22
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
C'mon, Ian, help me out here. Tell these folks how much better their
espresso would be if they bought power cords for their machines that
cost $1000/meter and then suspended them off the floor/counter on
little ceramic railroad trestles. Or how shining a green light on the
ground coffee would "lift a veil" to reveal new subtleties of flavor.
And then there is the matter of subjecting portafilters to powerful
magnetic fields. And manufacturing boilers of 99.999999% oxygen-free
copper.

On the bonfire of the vanities, specialty coffee is one of the
smaller, simpler logs.



  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 17:12:38
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
In article <1173211282.463661.179350@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups.com >,
Omniryx@gmail.com says...
> C'mon, Ian, help me out here. Tell these folks how much better their
> espresso would be if they bought power cords for their machines that
> cost $1000/meter and then suspended them off the floor/counter on
> little ceramic railroad trestles. Or how shining a green light on the
> ground coffee would "lift a veil" to reveal new subtleties of flavor.
> And then there is the matter of subjecting portafilters to powerful
> magnetic fields. And manufacturing boilers of 99.999999% oxygen-free
> copper.

The frightening part is that I paged through an audiophile catalog
recently. The $1,000/meter power cable is really not much of an
exaggeration!

> On the bonfire of the vanities, specialty coffee is one of the
> smaller, simpler logs.

Now, there's something I'm gonna use!

--
-Mike


  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 13:24:52
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 6 2007 12:01:22 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>C'mon, Ian, help me out here. Tell these folks how much better their
>espresso would be if they bought power cords for their machines that
>cost $1000/meter and then suspended them off the floor/counter on
>little ceramic railroad trestles. Or how shining a green light on the
>ground coffee would "lift a veil" to reveal new subtleties of flavor.
>And then there is the matter of subjecting portafilters to powerful
>magnetic fields. And manufacturing boilers of 99.999999% oxygen-free
>copper.
>

Will, you're way behind the times.

I'm currently using a variable frequency dynamo to drive the Macap to
maintain constant angular velocity of the grinder ejecta relative to
Alpha Centauri. Of course, there are times when it is not possible to
grind as the motion is perpendicular.

Another improvement is to use a Mandelbrot set for the PF hole
pattern. The hole diameters are a sequence based on the prime numbers
times the number of times a politician tells the truth divided by the
total number of utterances.

And if you think espressoporn is cool from bottomless PF, wait until I
post the shots from my earless.


  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 14:49:25
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 2007-03-06, Omniryx@gmail.com <Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote:

> On the bonfire of the vanities, specialty coffee is one of the
> smaller, simpler logs.

heh heh....

Yes, but entirity of the coffee bonfire itself makes the Texas Aggie
bonfire look like a paper match. Someone has to keep fanning
the flame. If not us coffee geeks, who?

nb


 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 10:58:45
From:
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 6, 12:20 pm, Steve <n...@use.net > wrote:
> On Mon, 05 2007 09:18:21 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
>
> <alanf...@coffeeco.com.au> wrote:
> >I once tasted something called "Gallo Burgundy", I wouldn't even wish it on
> >DaveB. I live in hope that someday it becomes illegal for USA brewers to
> >label their products as "beer" when there are neither barley nor hops
> >included in the manufacturing process. If you're willing to let
> >multinational chains impose THEIR vision of espresso/specialty
> >coffee/hamburgers/beer/wine on the mass ket, sooner or later, that will
> >BE the standard.
>
> I don't know if this is an uniquely American phenomenon, but it has a
> tragic effect on the quality of life here, and of course the quality
> of our products.
> Parmesan cheese made in Wisconsin and packaged in a can.
> Espresso that is not espresso.
> Ham that is not ham.
> This list could go on forever, it seems.

The mere existence of these ersatz products (sorry if that sounds like
snobbery) is not, in and of itself, a problem, IMO, since real
Parmesan, espresso, ham, etc. are still widely available. What chafes
my hide is that it seems that when products like these are available,
it drives the price of the 'real' thing to offensive levels. Which
means that only the snobs can afford them. Happily, coffee has really
not suffered from this effect.



 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 07:29:40
From:
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 6, 8:30 am, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> We have a local brewery here called Victory - they are excellent. Mostly
> they specialize in pedal to the floor brews like their "HopDevil" and "Old
> Horizontal" which are rich in hops (and alcohol). But a few years ago they
> changed (much to my disappointment) the recipe for their Victory lager to
> make it more acceptable to a mainstream audience. Until then it was at that
> "just right" level where the hops were clearly present but not too bitter.
> But they lightened it up even further to the point where it is insipid to a
> true beer lover. They changed it to broaden their mainstream appeal - for
> the average guy raised on Bud who wants a beer (or 6) to drink while he is
> watching the ball game it was still too intense, though it was already much
> lighter than most of their other brews. The point is that the mainstream
> beers reflect mainstream tastes - if the masses wanted hugely hopped all
> malt beers, Busch would be glad to oblige.

I find that, when I'm drinking excellent beer, I tend to have one,
*maybe* two pints and I'm satisfied. When I'm drinking a Bud clone,
I'll drink six without giving it a thought. It's much the same with
coffee - when I was drinking the Folgers that we brewed once a day in
our 55 cup electric percolator, I was never without a mugful in my
hand. Now that I'm grinding and pressing my home roasted Kenya (or
whatever suits my fancy) at work, I seldom have more than two a day
(and it's not due to the extra effort). I'm not sure how to explain
that.

> Bringing the discussion back to coffee, if you serve people properly
> brewed, 55g/liter drip coffee, a lot of people will say it's "too strong".
> Apparently, there is a mass preference for weak watery drinks in general.
>
> "Roger Shoaf" <s...@nospamsyix.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1173154053.393542@news01.syix.com...
>
>
>
> > "Mike Hartigan" <m...@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
> >news:MPG.205661392eae76ee98997d@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>
> >> Thank God hops were 'discovered' before I was too old to enjoy it!
> >> Try some of Three Floyds' Alpha King if you have a yen for a true,
> >> in-your-face hops experience out of a bottle. Rock Bottom Brewery is
> >> definitely favoring the hops lately, with a Pale Ale that will make
> >> you dizzy with hops.
>
> > I vote for Samuel Adams. I like the all malt brew and I think they got
> > the
> > hops just about perfect. If I am in the mood for something hoppier,
> > Sierra
> > Nevada is pretty good.
>
> > What irks me about the usual swill is that the non malt fermentables they
> > use seem to give me dry mouth and hangovers.
>
> > --
> > Roger Shoaf
> > If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.




  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 11:38:11
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
ls1mike@gmail.com wrote:

Now that I'm grinding and pressing my home roasted Kenya (or
> whatever suits my fancy) at work, I seldom have more than two a day
> (and it's not due to the extra effort). I'm not sure how to explain
> that.
>
>

It was noted by the Labor Department last quarter that productivity
was up 1.7% so the economy thanks you for limiting your coffee drinking
to two fine cups. Don't ask me what productivity in this economy means.
Bernie


 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 07:27:16
From: cpaullie
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 6, 6:50 am, "Omni...@gmail.com" <Omni...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Ken has raised an interesting question and I've enjoyed reading the
> conversation it has stimulated. I do not think, however, that he is
> entirely correct in his assumptions about other passionate interests.
>
> I was a foodie and winie and single maltie a long, long time before I
> got into coffee, which remains at most a tangential interest. I can
> assure you, Ken and others, that the very same trashola goes on in
> specialty lists and magazines devoted to those fields. And, as Ian
> can confirm, none of these gastronomic goodies even comes close to the
> mania that afflicts audiophiles.
>
> Specialty coffee is, I would argue, the low end of the high end and
> that may be why places like Mickey Dee's get run under the
> microscope. Gastronomes mostly don't bother to eat at Denny's and
> eonophiles don't buy MD 20/20; their sights are set a tad higher than
> that. But they're just as pretentious and self-focused, believe me.

Ah yes....I've had the same "past lives" and can also vouch for the
crazed nutcases in the food, wine and hifi subcultures...actually
spent several years as a hifi retailer and then later a fine wine
rep....they (we) are ALL nuts - I think one must draw the line (for
sanity's sake) at some point....for me it has always been the ability
to step back and laugh at the pretension and just be able to *enjoy*
the food/wine/music/coffee or whatever interest one chooses. Don't
take it - or yourself - too seriously.....

Cheers,

Paul
(new to this group)



 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 06:25:17
From:
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
I believe part of this comes from the publics general perceptions. I
would hope that most people who buy a box of wine do not consider
themselves wine connoisseurs. Likewise, I would hope that most people
that buy Pabst Blue Ribbon or Bud do not consider themselves beer
connoisseurs.

SB kets itself as high end coffee. There are many coffee shops in
my city, but not one I would go to for espresso (I've tried and
suffered). These shops try to emulate SB with their candy drinks.
I've overheard their patrons talking about how much better this shop
is compared to SB. My take was the espresso was horrible, the "latte"
was way sweeter than SB, the portafilter was black and whole place
could use a cleaning.

The the public has been trained by SB keting as to what coffee
"should be". Now the mom & pop shops emulate the SB drinks because
that's all they know. Don't get me wrong, I believe that the majority
of the American public wants the candy drinks and would not drink good
espresso or cappuccino.

The point is that until more people become aware of good coffee it
will be hard to find a caf=E9 that has good coffee.

Kurt



 
Date: 06 Mar 2007 05:50:57
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Ken has raised an interesting question and I've enjoyed reading the
conversation it has stimulated. I do not think, however, that he is
entirely correct in his assumptions about other passionate interests.

I was a foodie and winie and single maltie a long, long time before I
got into coffee, which remains at most a tangential interest. I can
assure you, Ken and others, that the very same trashola goes on in
specialty lists and magazines devoted to those fields. And, as Ian
can confirm, none of these gastronomic goodies even comes close to the
mania that afflicts audiophiles.

Specialty coffee is, I would argue, the low end of the high end and
that may be why places like Mickey Dee's get run under the
microscope. Gastronomes mostly don't bother to eat at Denny's and
eonophiles don't buy MD 20/20; their sights are set a tad higher than
that. But they're just as pretentious and self-focused, believe me.




  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 09:51:48
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 6 2007 05:50:57 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Ken has raised an interesting question and I've enjoyed reading the
>conversation it has stimulated. I do not think, however, that he is
>entirely correct in his assumptions about other passionate interests.
>
>I was a foodie and winie and single maltie a long, long time before I
>got into coffee, which remains at most a tangential interest. I can
>assure you, Ken and others, that the very same trashola goes on in
>specialty lists and magazines devoted to those fields. And, as Ian
>can confirm, none of these gastronomic goodies even comes close to the
>mania that afflicts audiophiles.
>
>Specialty coffee is, I would argue, the low end of the high end and
>that may be why places like Mickey Dee's get run under the
>microscope. Gastronomes mostly don't bother to eat at Denny's and
>eonophiles don't buy MD 20/20; their sights are set a tad higher than
>that. But they're just as pretentious and self-focused, believe me.
>

My 2p is that *$ et al. offend our sensibilities because they falsely
claim quality where none exists.

Denny's et al. claim quantity.


   
Date: 06 Mar 2007 17:54:54
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Tue, 06 2007 09:51:48 -0800, "I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote:

>>...eonophiles don't buy MD 20/20....

Sure we do. It makes a wonderful gift -- to the right person.

-- Larry


 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 22:07:49
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:551n2jF22pe8lU1@mid.individual.net...

OK, I posed a question when I started this thread, about why the "fine
coffee community" is preoccupied with bad and mass ket coffee. I
expected, or shall we say, I HOPED that someone would get the correct
answer. So far, I was wrong:-)

The correct answer is that by criticizing bad coffee in chains or at local
cafes and restaurants, it gives us (or at least those of us who post stuff
like that) the chance to feel SUPERIOR. To say, "Ha Ha Ha, look at the crap
that place is serving, but I, me, myself, and I, we serve really good
coffee."

That's the reason, plain and simple.

And I don't think that other afficianado communities, for food and for wine,
just to pick two examples, waste their time with stuff like that. If they
do, they are insecure, as well.

And that was the point I was trying to make.

As a community, we are insecure, and if we weren't, we wouldn't post stuff
like that.

kne


















> This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
> about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
> people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
> coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
> "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for
> espresso at local restaurants and cafes.
>
> Who cares?
>
> I ask this in all sincerity.
>
> Many of us have other interests, including such things as fine food, wine,
> photography, whatever. If Dennys or Red Lobster steals the name of some
> gastronomic dish and applies it to some warmed over abomination, do you
> think that foodies even notice? How about box wine; do the people on wine
> forums become unglued when Consumer Reports extols the virtue of some
> horrific plonk available at the local Safeway? When was the last time you
> heard of the local chapter of Les Amis de Vin picketing a Dennys because
> their wine list is poor? When you see a really bad photography in your
> local paper, do you call the editor to complain because as a photographer
> it offends your sensibilities?
>
> So why do we do this with mass ket coffee and espresso beverages? Who
> cares if the local Italian restaurant (that admittedly wouldn't know what
> "al dente" meant in relation to pasta, if you asked them) serves a 6 oz
> "espresso?"
>
> Why do we bother ourselves over this sort of nonsense, other than for the
> sheer pleasure of how good it feels after you stop banging your head
> against the wall?
>
> Food for thought.
>
> ken
>
>




  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 06:14:15
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
In article <554b98F23jf7rU1@mid.individual.net >,
morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com says...
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:551n2jF22pe8lU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> OK, I posed a question when I started this thread, about why the "fine
> coffee community" is preoccupied with bad and mass ket coffee. I
> expected, or shall we say, I HOPED that someone would get the correct
> answer. So far, I was wrong:-)

Oftentimes in life, when arrogance leads you to believe that you
already "know" the answer, you're better off not asking the question,
lest you be proved wrong and damage your self image.

> The correct answer is that by criticizing bad coffee in chains or at local
> cafes and restaurants, it gives us (or at least those of us who post stuff
> like that) the chance to feel SUPERIOR. To say, "Ha Ha Ha, look at the crap
> that place is serving, but I, me, myself, and I, we serve really good
> coffee."
>
> That's the reason, plain and simple.

If that's how you see it, then that's fine. I like to see this a
group of people on a quest for the perfect cup of coffee (better than
everybody else's, if that makes you happy). Many of us have found
that analyzing others' mistakes saves us the trouble of making those
same mistakes. What you're describing is elevating one's self by
lowering others. I like to think that most of us outgrew that years
ago. A recent, rather lengthy thread that discussed the highly
subjective nature of taste illustrated that very well, IMO. I guess
you missed it.

> And I don't think that other afficianado communities, for food and for wine,
> just to pick two examples, waste their time with stuff like that. If they
> do, they are insecure, as well.

I don't know about wine. But, as I said in a previous reply to this
thread, food lovers suffer the same malady.

> And that was the point I was trying to make.

It was merely an opinion that you were trying to validate. It would
appear that not many share it.

> As a community, we are insecure, and if we weren't, we wouldn't post stuff
> like that.

Then why hang around?

--
-Mike


  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 08:36:17
From: Mathew Hargreaves
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
I disagree Ken. I think we have a good understanding of the
specialty area of fine coffee but also take a very large glance at the
rest of the world of coffee. I see no insecurity. I do see sincere
interest of its domain in the whole.
People do get tired of the same conversational material, so
diversions to lesser lands of beverage sources like McD's or worse, add
to the overall scope of the coffee field.
And damn it, no one here ever illuminates the microscopic details
on how to make kishr using the husks - like in Yemen. I gave up trying
to find out the whole process and what goes into it. Yet, I would like
to try making it the way they do there. Its frustration this time, not
insecurity.

CHEERS...Mathew :-)

Ken Fox wrote:
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:551n2jF22pe8lU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> OK, I posed a question when I started this thread, about why the "fine
> coffee community" is preoccupied with bad and mass ket coffee. I
> expected, or shall we say, I HOPED that someone would get the correct
> answer. So far, I was wrong:-)
>
> The correct answer is that by criticizing bad coffee in chains or at local
> cafes and restaurants, it gives us (or at least those of us who post stuff
> like that) the chance to feel SUPERIOR. To say, "Ha Ha Ha, look at the crap
> that place is serving, but I, me, myself, and I, we serve really good
> coffee."
>
> That's the reason, plain and simple.
>
> And I don't think that other afficianado communities, for food and for wine,
> just to pick two examples, waste their time with stuff like that. If they
> do, they are insecure, as well.
>
> And that was the point I was trying to make.
>
> As a community, we are insecure, and if we weren't, we wouldn't post stuff
> like that.
>
> kne
>
> > This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
> > about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
> > people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
> > coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
> > "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for
> > espresso at local restaurants and cafes.
> >
> > Who cares?
> >
> > I ask this in all sincerity.
> >
> > Many of us have other interests, including such things as fine food, wine,
> > photography, whatever. If Dennys or Red Lobster steals the name of some
> > gastronomic dish and applies it to some warmed over abomination, do you
> > think that foodies even notice? How about box wine; do the people on wine
> > forums become unglued when Consumer Reports extols the virtue of some
> > horrific plonk available at the local Safeway? When was the last time you
> > heard of the local chapter of Les Amis de Vin picketing a Dennys because
> > their wine list is poor? When you see a really bad photography in your
> > local paper, do you call the editor to complain because as a photographer
> > it offends your sensibilities?
> >
> > So why do we do this with mass ket coffee and espresso beverages? Who
> > cares if the local Italian restaurant (that admittedly wouldn't know what
> > "al dente" meant in relation to pasta, if you asked them) serves a 6 oz
> > "espresso?"
> >
> > Why do we bother ourselves over this sort of nonsense, other than for the
> > sheer pleasure of how good it feels after you stop banging your head
> > against the wall?
> >
> > Food for thought.
> >
> > ken
> >
> >


   
Date: 06 Mar 2007 03:47:56
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 2007-03-06, Mathew Hargreaves <mathewdh@worldnet.att.net > wrote:

> People do get tired of the same conversational material, so
> diversions to lesser lands of beverage sources like McD's or worse, add
> to the overall scope of the coffee field.

Agreed.

Nothing remains stagnate and an occasional revisit is often warranted.
My "high horse" thread was in that vein. I never patronize starbucks.
But, a recent emergency trip forced me to make use of them out of
sheer desperation. I was pleasantly surprised to find them not as I
recall. Not only were the stright shots sufficiently good, but I
notice they are no longer selling just over roasted robustas.

When I reached my mom's place, I discovered her recently purchased
fresh beans were not ground. We were forced to use some Gourmet Blend
Folgers she still had around. I was stunned to not cringe on the
first sip. It was actually decent and much better than some of the
crap served at many restaurants.

I think the overall coffee situation is improving, whether we think it
deserves our refined attention or not.

nb


  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 06:48:07
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Mon, 5 2007 22:07:49 -0700, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote:

>And I don't think that other afficianado communities, for food and for wine,
>just to pick two examples, waste their time with stuff like that. If they
>do, they are insecure, as well.
>
>And that was the point I was trying to make.
>
>As a community, we are insecure, and if we weren't, we wouldn't post stuff
>like that.
>
>kne

Everyone goes through that phase. I know that I did. But, sneering
about the latest place that served someone a bad coffee is very
different from talking about important developments in the coffee
world that involve non-stellar coffees.

The upgrading of McDonalds' coffee, for example, may have important
long-term consequences, such as a bigger ket for farmers
cultivating premium coffees. It's also an indicator of rising coffee
standards among consumers. The recent end of coffee's historic slide
behind soft drinks is good news, too.

And sometimes the discussion isn't so historic, but coffee people like
to talk about coffee.

shall


 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 21:37:05
From: Bob Wilson
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so secure?
Ken Fox <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote:

> This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
> about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
> people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
> coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
> "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
> at local restaurants and cafes.
>
> Who cares?

I am secure that just the folks looking for the USENET group
"alt.coffee" care.

> I ask this in all sincerity.

The name of this USENET group is "alt.coffee" and we are securely here
because we 'care about fine coffee.' There are other venues for
alternate subjects so bye-bye.

Bob Wilson


 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 18:46:34
From: chardinej
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 5, 11:10 am, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeG...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "Coffee for Connoisseurs" <alanf...@coffeeco.com.au> wrote in messagenews:xfRGh.7504$8U4.6215@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
>
> > Probably for the same reasons the French winemakers are; if "Burgundy"
> > becomes a generic term for "soft red", and the so-called "Burgundies" are
> > mass produced dreck with no resemblance to the real thing, then the
> > discerning customers, and the people trying to be discerning customers,
> > stop buying Burgundy. The crap continues to sell to the lowest common
> > denominator ket and the real producers go broke. Substitute "Kona" for
> > "Burgundy" and you have the Kona farmer's arguments in a nutshell.
>
> > I once tasted something called "Gallo Burgundy", I wouldn't even wish it
> > on DaveB. I live in hope that someday it becomes illegal for USA brewers
> > to label their products as "beer" when there are neither barley nor hops
> > included in the manufacturing process. If you're willing to let
> > multinational chains impose THEIR vision of espresso/specialty
> > coffee/hamburgers/beer/wine on the mass ket, sooner or later, that will
> > BE the standard.
>
> > --
> > Alan
>
> > alanf...@coffeeco.com.au
> >www.coffeeco.com.au
>
> Interestingly enough, Gallo's "Hearty Burgundy" used to get reasonably good
> writeups as a drinkable very cheap red wine a couple of decades ago. I'd
> bet it was better than "two buck chuck," that Charles Shaw line that sold
> for about $2/bottle recently.
>
> I wasn't trying to address the issue of of stealing place names, e.g.
> "Burgundy," on poor quality beverages and beans, but rather the mass
> ket's use of "coffee" and expresso-name beverages. Many of these
> beverages have names that aren't even "real," names like "latte." If you
> ordered a "latte" outside of a highly touristic area in Italy, I'm pretty
> sure they would give you a . . . glass of milk.
>
> I'm trying to figure out why we, as true "conoisseurs" of coffee, should
> concern ourselves with the low end product produced by mass keters, bad
> cafes, and restaurants. Since I've never concerned myself with bad food in
> restaurant chains I don't eat at (even though I'm a foodie), the explanation
> is still unclear to me.
>
> ken

One reason is that for example in a restaurant setting, I can choose
the wine so it's my fault if it's bad. For coffee on the other hand,
you are at the mercy of the restauranteur, and I have noticed over the
years that even the best restaurants I've eaten in typically serve
crap coffee. I continue to be amazed that the process of making
coffee, which you have to admit people, is not rocket science, seems
so difficult to folks who should be able to do it with their eyes
closed.

John



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 15:40:34
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?


fox:

"I just don't understand why "we" take it upon ourselves to care. "

If not us who(m)??

If not NOW, when????

A lot of espresso fanatics STARTED as Starbucks customers.

dave



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 17:10:35
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Folks who are interested in coffee tend to take an interest in the
business, as well as the beverage. The efforts of McD, DD, as well
as General Foods, et al, have an enormous impact on the global ket
for coffee. That includes the 'gourmet' stuff that tends to be
discussed here as a beverage.

In article <551n2jF22pe8lU1@mid.individual.net >,
morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com says...
> This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
> about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
> people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
> coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
> "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
> at local restaurants and cafes.
>
> Who cares?
>
> I ask this in all sincerity.
>
> Many of us have other interests, including such things as fine food, wine,
> photography, whatever. If Dennys or Red Lobster steals the name of some
> gastronomic dish and applies it to some warmed over abomination, do you
> think that foodies even notice? How about box wine; do the people on wine
> forums become unglued when Consumer Reports extols the virtue of some
> horrific plonk available at the local Safeway? When was the last time you
> heard of the local chapter of Les Amis de Vin picketing a Dennys because
> their wine list is poor? When you see a really bad photography in your
> local paper, do you call the editor to complain because as a photographer it
> offends your sensibilities?
>
> So why do we do this with mass ket coffee and espresso beverages? Who
> cares if the local Italian restaurant (that admittedly wouldn't know what
> "al dente" meant in relation to pasta, if you asked them) serves a 6 oz
> "espresso?"
>
> Why do we bother ourselves over this sort of nonsense, other than for the
> sheer pleasure of how good it feels after you stop banging your head against
> the wall?
>
> Food for thought.
>
> ken
>
>
>

--
-Mike


  
Date: 05 Mar 2007 16:32:02
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
"Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.2055c8ca9b907ea798997c@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> Folks who are interested in coffee tend to take an interest in the
> business, as well as the beverage. The efforts of McD, DD, as well
> as General Foods, et al, have an enormous impact on the global ket
> for coffee. That includes the 'gourmet' stuff that tends to be
> discussed here as a beverage.
>

I'm not specifically picking on your response but it was a convenient place
to put this comment.

The sales of cheap wine and bad food are every bit as important in their own
industries as the sale of bad coffee is within the area of "specialty
coffee." Yet I never hear foodies obcess about bad chain store food, as if
it makes any difference to their enjoyment of good food. Likewise, I don't
hear wine afficienados talking incessently about bad wine sold on the mass
ket. I submit that there is just as much (or more) bad food and bad wine
out there as there is bad coffee.

I just don't understand why "we" take it upon ourselves to care.

Personally, I think it is a total waste of time that could be used to
improve what is already good coffee and our efforts with it.

Very occasionally a mass ket consumer can be "converted over" from the
dark side, but it is my impression that much more often, this type of
consumer will enjoy what you serve them and the next time you see them they
will be back to drinking whatever was the horrible beverage that was what
they drink before your attempt at showing them there are better things out
there. Most people just don't value what we do when it comes to coffee, and
in my view it is largely a waste of time to try to get them to value it.

ken




   
Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:42:09
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
In article <553njbF1rs36mU1@mid.individual.net >,
morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com says...
> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2055c8ca9b907ea798997c@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> > Folks who are interested in coffee tend to take an interest in the
> > business, as well as the beverage. The efforts of McD, DD, as well
> > as General Foods, et al, have an enormous impact on the global ket
> > for coffee. That includes the 'gourmet' stuff that tends to be
> > discussed here as a beverage.
> >
>
> I'm not specifically picking on your response but it was a convenient place
> to put this comment.
>
> The sales of cheap wine and bad food are every bit as important in their own
> industries as the sale of bad coffee is within the area of "specialty
> coffee." Yet I never hear foodies obcess about bad chain store food, as if
> it makes any difference to their enjoyment of good food. Likewise, I don't
> hear wine afficienados talking incessently about bad wine sold on the mass
> ket. I submit that there is just as much (or more) bad food and bad wine
> out there as there is bad coffee.
>
> I just don't understand why "we" take it upon ourselves to care.
>
> Personally, I think it is a total waste of time that could be used to
> improve what is already good coffee and our efforts with it.
>
> Very occasionally a mass ket consumer can be "converted over" from the
> dark side, but it is my impression that much more often, this type of
> consumer will enjoy what you serve them and the next time you see them they
> will be back to drinking whatever was the horrible beverage that was what
> they drink before your attempt at showing them there are better things out
> there. Most people just don't value what we do when it comes to coffee, and
> in my view it is largely a waste of time to try to get them to value it.

Maybe my message wasn't clear - the people who frequent this
newsgroup tend to be interested in the business of coffee as well as
the beverage. The keting of coffee is part of what makes this
interesting for many of the folks here. And maybe you're simply not
paying attention - gourmet food junkies are every bit as critical of
chain restaurant hacks as coffee junkies are of the 'lesser' sources
of java.

--
-Mike


    
Date: 05 Mar 2007 20:18:53
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
"Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.205682f166ffacc498997e@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> >
> Maybe my message wasn't clear - the people who frequent this
> newsgroup tend to be interested in the business of coffee as well as
> the beverage. The keting of coffee is part of what makes this
> interesting for many of the folks here. And maybe you're simply not
> paying attention - gourmet food junkies are every bit as critical of
> chain restaurant hacks as coffee junkies are of the 'lesser' sources
> of java.
>
> --
> -Mike

In the case of people actually in the industry or who work for organizations
such as the SCAA, I can understand the interest if not agree that it is a
worthwhile endeavor. For the rest of us, I think the time could be better
spent.

ken




     
Date: 05 Mar 2007 21:52:36
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
In article <5544smF23djf3U1@mid.individual.net >,
morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com says...
> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.205682f166ffacc498997e@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> > >
> > Maybe my message wasn't clear - the people who frequent this
> > newsgroup tend to be interested in the business of coffee as well as
> > the beverage. The keting of coffee is part of what makes this
> > interesting for many of the folks here. And maybe you're simply not
> > paying attention - gourmet food junkies are every bit as critical of
> > chain restaurant hacks as coffee junkies are of the 'lesser' sources
> > of java.
> >
> > --
> > -Mike
>
> In the case of people actually in the industry or who work for organizations
> such as the SCAA, I can understand the interest if not agree that it is a
> worthwhile endeavor. For the rest of us, I think the time could be better
> spent.

I recently saw a 'Modern vels' episode about the history of
bricks. There was a man on that show who, while not in the business,
nevertheless, collects bricks. Frankly, I think that his time could
be better spent. But who am I to tell him what he should be
interested in?

--
-Mike


      
Date: 05 Mar 2007 21:37:34
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
>
> I recently saw a 'Modern vels' episode about the history of
> bricks. There was a man on that show who, while not in the business,
> nevertheless, collects bricks. Frankly, I think that his time could
> be better spent. But who am I to tell him what he should be
> interested in?
>
> --
> -Mike

Bricks, in my view, are considerably more interesting than reading about 6
oz lattes produced at such and such Olive Garden, or whether Dunkin Donuts
makes better coffee than McDonalds. But who can know?

ken




     
Date: 06 Mar 2007 03:38:22
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Mon, 5 2007 20:18:53 -0700, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

>"Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.205682f166ffacc498997e@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>> >
>> Maybe my message wasn't clear - the people who frequent this
>> newsgroup tend to be interested in the business of coffee as well as
>> the beverage. The keting of coffee is part of what makes this
>> interesting for many of the folks here. And maybe you're simply not
>> paying attention - gourmet food junkies are every bit as critical of
>> chain restaurant hacks as coffee junkies are of the 'lesser' sources
>> of java.
>>
>> --
>> -Mike
>
>In the case of people actually in the industry or who work for organizations
>such as the SCAA, I can understand the interest if not agree that it is a
>worthwhile endeavor. For the rest of us, I think the time could be better
>spent.
>
>ken

Given that many of the most interesting alt.coffee contributors have
already been driven off, I would not be in favor of discouraging
professionals from posting.

shall


      
Date: 05 Mar 2007 21:35:50
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:vdopu2h7cqhmie4m14sohk6ft97qp711jr@4ax.com...
> >
> Given that many of the most interesting alt.coffee contributors have
> already been driven off, I would not be in favor of discouraging
> professionals from posting.
>
> shall

Let's assume you are correct.

Please supply a list of the "most interesting professional alt.coffee
contributors" who have been discouraged from posting because the value of
berating bad and mass ket coffee has been questioned, in posts such as
mine, here.

thanks,

ken




 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 16:32:31
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote:

>This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
>about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
>people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
>coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
>"wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
>at local restaurants and cafes.
>
>Who cares?

I do. I spend a lot of my day teaching people what goes into a
specialty drink. When i'm making drinks, I spend time with the
customer, talking about the pull of the shot, asking them to note as
the color of the espresso begins to lighten, noting how long the pour
takes, talking about the sound of milk being properly steamed, taking
some time pouring the milk to make my imitation of latte art (usually
an apple or MS. Packman), etc., etc.

A lot of people who come into my shop for the first time have never
had a cappucino other than what's available at gas stations or
Starbucks. These people expect a cappucino to be sweet, a macchiato to
be large and sweet, and brewed coffee to have some kind of flavoring
in it. This doesn't have to be the standard. Is it inevitable?
Probably. I'll just keep bashing my head against the wall though,
because I know the difference. And it's not that hard to do coffee
the right way. Plus customers like it when they hear the standard is
something different than what they've experienced...

North Sullivan
(rant off)



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 12:07:23
From:
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
>
> So why do we do this with mass ket coffee and espresso beverages? Who
> cares if the local Italian restaurant (that admittedly wouldn't know what
> "al dente" meant in relation to pasta, if you asked them) serves a 6 oz
> "espresso?"
>

Because by observing and hoping-beyond-hope that the collective coffee
appreciation of where we live (whether you think about your town,
state, area of the country, or nation as a whole) is raised, it
increases the chance that we'll be able to enjoy better coffee more
often.

Like many of us here, I have gone to great lengths to nurture the best
coffee experience possible when at home, but like most of us I would
argue, I sometimes wish to have coffee outside of the home, whether at
work or when traveling. If our society's coffee appreciation as a
whole increases, I have a better chance of scoring a better cup
outside the home when I need one.

That said, I don't like the chain-store-bashing banter that goes on
around here often, but I still keep an eye open, and like to know
whether (or not) my local McD's, DD's, or Sbux can offer up a decent
cup in a pinch.

Anthony.

Anthony.



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 12:50:21
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Ken Fox wrote:

(snips)
>
> Who cares?
>
> I ask this in all sincerity.
>
>Food for thought.
>
> ken
>
>

Because many of the over-the-top coffee folk have much of their
identity wrapped up in being coffee people. If you identify much of who
you are as, say, a banjo player and then every Tom, Dick and Billy-Bob
shows up next week with a half-assed repertoire of banjo tunes you may
sense a little shift of the earth under your feet. Especially if you'd
spent a few decades at the craft of banjo picking. Yes, Ken, the banjo
player should be judged on his/her picking. But if the unwashed masses
haven't heard but "Amazing Grace" and "Dueling Banjos" then they may
have a standard of "fine-pickin'" that offends the sensibilities of more
accomplished pickers or listeners. Same with coffee folk who have spent
a considerable amount of time and effort learning coffee whether for
profit, pleasure or both. They care because they love coffee and the
world of coffee and the ever growing number of coffee frauds insults and
offends. Is it rational? Probably not. Is it logical? Not. It is coffee.
Bernie (robusta-never in my shop-never in my life) D.


  
Date: 06 Mar 2007 04:06:53
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Mon, 05 2007 12:50:21 -0700, bernie <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote:

>Bernie (robusta-never in my shop-never in my life) D.

...except for that one cupping?

;)



   
Date: 06 Mar 2007 11:32:51
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Barry Jarrett wrote:
> On Mon, 05 2007 12:50:21 -0700, bernie <bdigman@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> >Bernie (robusta-never in my shop-never in my life) D.
>
> ...except for that one cupping?
>
> ;)
>

Oh, yeah. That one. I can still see the glare in Ken David's eye
when I raised my hand. He was so gracious.
Bernie


 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 11:38:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 5, 1:38 pm, "I- >Ian" <some...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 2007 09:43:56 -0600, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
>
> >Anyone labeling themselves as "true connoisseurs" has already strayed
> >into the pretentious zone. Obsessing over it is part and parcel.
>
> Pretentious?
> Moi?
>
> Claim to be a "common sewer" of fine food, wine, cognac, armagnac,
> whisky, whiskey, espresso and mere coffee.
>
> Except for those residing in Idaho, where piped plumbing can still be
> a future enhancement, we are all in fact, the first portal into said
> "common sewer"

ROTFL!!

thanx

dave



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 10:30:41
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 5, 1:26 pm, becca <illshowyouinternetsyn...@earthlink.net >
wrote:
> Jim wrote:
> > shall wrote:
>
> >> On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
> >> <morceaudemerdeSnipT...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> This is something I have never understood about the community that
> >>> cares about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the
> >>> preoccupation that people like us have with mass ket coffee
> >>> products, be they superket coffee brands, what is served by major
> >>> chains such as Starbucks, coffee "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan
> >>> Donuts, or even what passes for espresso at local restaurants and cafes.
>
> >>> Who cares?
>
> >> It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
> >> coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
> >> two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
> >> research tells them people really care and it will boost their
> >> revenues.
>
> >> And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
> >> so).
>
> >> shall
>
> > Do other McD's sell "Seattle's Best," or is it just the local ket
> > (seattle)?
>
> doesn't starbucks own seattle's best? are they really upset they're
> selling mcdonald's franchises a coffee that's competing with themselves?
>
> *goes back to lurking*

Yes, they did buy out SBC -- and that could ONLY lead to improvement.

dave



  
Date: 05 Mar 2007 17:46:45
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
daveb wrote:
> On 5, 1:26 pm, becca <illshowyouinternetsyn...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Jim wrote:
>>
>>>shall wrote:
>>
>>>>On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
>>>><morceaudemerdeSnipT...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>This is something I have never understood about the community that
>>>>>cares about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the
>>>>>preoccupation that people like us have with mass ket coffee
>>>>>products, be they superket coffee brands, what is served by major
>>>>>chains such as Starbucks, coffee "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan
>>>>>Donuts, or even what passes for espresso at local restaurants and cafes.
>>
>>>>>Who cares?
>>
>>>>It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
>>>>coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
>>>>two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
>>>>research tells them people really care and it will boost their
>>>>revenues.
>>
>>>>And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
>>>>so).
>>
>>>>shall
>>
>>>Do other McD's sell "Seattle's Best," or is it just the local ket
>>>(seattle)?
>>
>>doesn't starbucks own seattle's best? are they really upset they're
>>selling mcdonald's franchises a coffee that's competing with themselves?
>>
>>*goes back to lurking*
>
>
> Yes, they did buy out SBC -- and that could ONLY lead to improvement.

Improvement to Starbucks, as I read you. Starbucks tends to taste
burnt. I didn't notice that when I bought Seattle's Best beans, but
that was quite a while ago, at least a couple of years. They sold it in
bulk bins at the grocery store, perhaps they still do. I no longer look
since I roast my own.

>
> dave
>


 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 09:38:19
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?


"I wouldn't even wish it on DaveB. "

wow, thanks for the compliment!

www.hitechespresso.com
supplier of espresso machine enhancements



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 04:51:11
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 5, 12:10 am, "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeSnipT...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
> about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
> people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
> coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
> "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
> at local restaurants and cafes.
>
> Who cares?
>
> I ask this in all sincerity.
>
> Many of us have other interests, including such things as fine food, wine,
> photography, whatever. If Dennys or Red Lobster steals the name of some
> gastronomic dish and applies it to some warmed over abomination, do you
> think that foodies even notice? How about box wine; do the people on wine
> forums become unglued when Consumer Reports extols the virtue of some
> horrific plonk available at the local Safeway? When was the last time you
> heard of the local chapter of Les Amis de Vin picketing a Dennys because
> their wine list is poor? When you see a really bad photography in your
> local paper, do you call the editor to complain because as a photographer it
> offends your sensibilities?
>
> So why do we do this with mass ket coffee and espresso beverages? Who
> cares if the local Italian restaurant (that admittedly wouldn't know what
> "al dente" meant in relation to pasta, if you asked them) serves a 6 oz
> "espresso?"
>
> Why do we bother ourselves over this sort of nonsense, other than for the
> sheer pleasure of how good it feels after you stop banging your head against
> the wall?
>
> Food for thought.

Ran into an article and survey - take 10 years off the average
American male for the food he eats. Presumably, since men cook less
than women, they eat out more often or buy packaged food, as opposed
to preparing food for themselves. Some months ago, I read what I
could find about white bread and how it's commercially produced.
Since then, I haven't bought a loaf of bread in a store and bake my
own whole-wheat breads. The taste of roasted, extracted coffee needs
no introduction. I'm also very preoccupied with mass keting - the
Asian kets are melting down, again, as I speak on the overnight
reports, while equities are at their worst since the terrorist
bombings the World Trade Center. Although I neither subscribe to a
newspaper or receive televised transmissions into my home, apart from
the internet as news source, I, as well and to a degree, live off
this. I was introduced to investments during the ket fall of
2000-2002. When coffee was first discovered, I thought coffee's
acceptance suitably interesting, in that its course followed for one
as an active constituent for commodity trading practices within
trading establishments providing coffee. Today, coffee ranks second
to oil in commodity assessment values. I am also very much interested
in buying oil at a present depressed value. Although, before that,
think I'll stop to make my first cup of coffee and think awhile about
this day. Have a nice one, too.



 
Date: 05 Mar 2007 05:24:37
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com > wrote:

>This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
>about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
>people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
>coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
>"wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
>at local restaurants and cafes.
>
>Who cares?

It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
research tells them people really care and it will boost their
revenues.

And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
so).

shall


  
Date: 04 Mar 2007 23:09:50
From: Jim
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
shall wrote:

> On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
>>about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
>>people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
>>coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
>>"wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
>>at local restaurants and cafes.
>>
>>Who cares?
>
>
> It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
> coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
> two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
> research tells them people really care and it will boost their
> revenues.
>
> And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
> so).
>
> shall

Do other McD's sell "Seattle's Best," or is it just the local ket
(seattle)?


   
Date: 05 Mar 2007 18:26:34
From: becca
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Jim wrote:
> shall wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
>> <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> This is something I have never understood about the community that
>>> cares about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the
>>> preoccupation that people like us have with mass ket coffee
>>> products, be they superket coffee brands, what is served by major
>>> chains such as Starbucks, coffee "wars" between McDonalds and Duncan
>>> Donuts, or even what passes for espresso at local restaurants and cafes.
>>>
>>> Who cares?
>>
>>
>>
>> It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
>> coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
>> two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
>> research tells them people really care and it will boost their
>> revenues.
>>
>> And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
>> so).
>>
>> shall
>
>
> Do other McD's sell "Seattle's Best," or is it just the local ket
> (seattle)?

doesn't starbucks own seattle's best? are they really upset they're
selling mcdonald's franchises a coffee that's competing with themselves?

*goes back to lurking*


    
Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:52:34
From: Mathew Hargreaves
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Becca wrote:

> doesn't starbucks own seattle's best? are they really upset they're
> selling mcdonald's franchises a coffee that's competing with themselves?
>
> *goes back to lurking*

Yes. No. Starbucks gets a greater ket access and increases their
cash-flow. Since the average persom Forgets or Never Knew that Starbucks
owns Seattle's Best, they are not competing the Mcd image and coffee
against the Starbucks image and coffees.
Though with the overkill of American cheese used on the McD
products, I am half-expecting American cheese to be a an additive
someday to their coffee. It will be added like a latte art. :-)

CHEERS...Mathew


   
Date: 05 Mar 2007 07:34:47
From:
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Sun, 04 2007 23:09:50 -0800, Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com >
wrote:

>shall wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
>> <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>

>>
>> It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
>> coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
>> two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
>> research tells them people really care and it will boost their
>> revenues.
>>
>> And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
>> so).
>>
>> shall
>
>Do other McD's sell "Seattle's Best," or is it just the local ket
>(seattle)?
Our local McD's proudly advertises on the radio that it is offering/
selling "Royal Kona" coffee. Royal Kona is a *brand* and although to
be fair, it does have some 100% Kona, the overwhelming majority of
Royal Kona is 10% Blend, or at Christmas, "Cookies and Cream-
adnauseum" - you get the drift. At best, McD's might have the 10%
Blend of Royal Kona. .

So no, they don't serve Seattle's Best here.

aloha,
Cea
roast beans to kona to email
farmers of Pure Kona


   
Date: 05 Mar 2007 13:01:05
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Sun, 04 2007 23:09:50 -0800, Jim <askme@beforeyousend.com >
wrote:

>shall wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 4 2007 22:10:43 -0700, "Ken Fox"
>> <morceaudemerdeSnipThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This is something I have never understood about the community that cares
>>>about fine ("specialty") coffee. I'm talking about the preoccupation that
>>>people like us have with mass ket coffee products, be they superket
>>>coffee brands, what is served by major chains such as Starbucks, coffee
>>>"wars" between McDonalds and Duncan Donuts, or even what passes for espresso
>>>at local restaurants and cafes.
>>>
>>>Who cares?
>>
>>
>> It's a barometer of the general upswing in the public's demand for
>> coffee quality. McD and DD have both improved their brew in the past
>> two years. They don't bother with such things unless their ket
>> research tells them people really care and it will boost their
>> revenues.
>>
>> And the coffee business is interesting in itself (at least I think
>> so).
>>
>> shall
>
>Do other McD's sell "Seattle's Best," or is it just the local ket
>(seattle)?

No. It's regionalized. Green Mountain in the northeast. Gavina in
California. I don't know the other regions. Part of the program was
giving robusta the boot.

BTW NCA announced this weekend at their annual conference that coffee
overtook soft drinks this past year in U.S. consumption. Even if it
isn't all 80+ coffees (by a long shot), it's good for farmers.

shall


    
Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:32:17
From: Mathew Hargreaves
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
shall wrote:
>
> BTW NCA announced this weekend at their annual conference that coffee
> overtook soft drinks this past year in U.S. consumption. Even if it
> isn't all 80+ coffees (by a long shot), it's good for farmers.
>
> shall

Keep in mind that sugar is a leading candidate in a lot of
deseases. With the aging population and more diabetes showing up. It is
a natural that they look for an alternative beverage that they can enjoy
for taste. And without adding calories via sugar and milk or cream. As
that public comes to understand a good cup of coffee like a fine wine,
then mass-produced flavored sugar-water is looking a bad dietary choice.
I chose to eliminate a lot of the sugar out of my diet a few years
back to avoid diabetes. I loved certain specialty soda-pops but chose to
eliminate the high sugar intake, and never went near the artificial
sweetened varieties as I did not trust them. The latter choice seems to
be born out now with more research.
As for fast food, Fries now and then, but I choose items without
the American cheese. I like a Jumbo Jack without the cheese. Cheese is
about 96% fat and salt, and concentrated hormones. There is still a lot
of salt in the meat and fat in the sauce, but a lot less if you leave
out the fries and their salt. Its not good food compared to fresh home
cooked but will be a resonable alternative when there is a time crunch
and no time to cook food.

CHEERS...Mathew


   
Date: 05 Mar 2007 09:18:21
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Probably for the same reasons the French winemakers are; if "Burgundy"
becomes a generic term for "soft red", and the so-called "Burgundies" are
mass produced dreck with no resemblance to the real thing, then the
discerning customers, and the people trying to be discerning customers, stop
buying Burgundy. The crap continues to sell to the lowest common denominator
ket and the real producers go broke. Substitute "Kona" for "Burgundy" and
you have the Kona farmer's arguments in a nutshell.

I once tasted something called "Gallo Burgundy", I wouldn't even wish it on
DaveB. I live in hope that someday it becomes illegal for USA brewers to
label their products as "beer" when there are neither barley nor hops
included in the manufacturing process. If you're willing to let
multinational chains impose THEIR vision of espresso/specialty
coffee/hamburgers/beer/wine on the mass ket, sooner or later, that will
BE the standard.



--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au




    
Date: 06 Mar 2007 18:20:48
From: Steve
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Mon, 05 2007 09:18:21 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
<alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:

>I once tasted something called "Gallo Burgundy", I wouldn't even wish it on
>DaveB. I live in hope that someday it becomes illegal for USA brewers to
>label their products as "beer" when there are neither barley nor hops
>included in the manufacturing process. If you're willing to let
>multinational chains impose THEIR vision of espresso/specialty
>coffee/hamburgers/beer/wine on the mass ket, sooner or later, that will
>BE the standard.

I don't know if this is an uniquely American phenomenon, but it has a
tragic effect on the quality of life here, and of course the quality
of our products.
Parmesan cheese made in Wisconsin and packaged in a can.
Espresso that is not espresso.
Ham that is not ham.
This list could go on forever, it seems.


    
Date: 05 Mar 2007 11:55:44
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
This is not the place to have a beer discussion, but you should know that
the reason for some of the very unbeerlike "beers" sold in America has to do
with our complex system of regulating alcoholic beverages, which is a
hangover from the repeal of Prohibition. In some states, "beers" may be
sold in grocery stores, etc. while "hard liquor" may not. So while in most
countries, premixed cocktails such as "Mike's Hard Lemonade" are made simply
by adding alcohol to the lemon sugar water, in the US they brew a "beer"
without hops (but not without malted some barley) to reach the desired
alcohol level. It would be cheaper and easier for the manufacturers just to
add ethanol - they brew this stuff as a "beer" not because they want to but
because the law requires them to in order to get their product into the
channel and it takes a lot of effort and special yeasts to make a "beer"
that has no flavor of its own.

OTOH, if you are referring to mainstream US beers such as Budweiser, these
do indeed contain hops and barley but supplemented with rice and corn and
very light on the hops. This is a conscious decision that is in line with
mass-ket US preference. It seems to me that as long as the product is
not labeled deceptively (e.g the corn and rice are disclosed) there's
nothing wrong with that and I think most US consumers would object to
labeling Bud as something other than "beer" nor would they want only
all-malt, heavily hopped beers to be the only ones available when they are
accustomed to "light" beers. Historically beers have been brewed from other
grains, such as the wheat beers of Germany and hops is a relatively recent
addition to beer - for many thousands of years and in many cultures beer
never contained hops.

This is like the discussion we have had about "espresso". To us, "espresso"
may require a 9 bar machine but in popular terminology moka pots make
"espresso" and that's just how it is . I think efforts to regulate popular
names for things as a matter of law (as opposed to full disclosure which I
favor) are wrong headed. Maybe in France stuff like this flies but Americans
take a much more free wheeling approach to naming things. I toast this with
a glass of "New York State Champagne" as I nibble on "Wisconsin Swiss
Cheese."




"Coffee for Connoisseurs" <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote in message
news:xfRGh.7504$8U4.6215@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
I live in hope that someday it becomes illegal for USA brewers to
> label their products as "beer" when there are neither barley nor hops
> included in the manufacturing process. If>
>




     
Date: 05 Mar 2007 17:18:25
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
In article <GuGdnXTl6YMG1nHYnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@comcast.com >,
nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
> [...] and hops is a relatively recent
> addition to beer - for many thousands of years and in many cultures beer
> never contained hops.

Thank God hops were 'discovered' before I was too old to enjoy it!
Try some of Three Floyds' Alpha King if you have a yen for a true,
in-your-face hops experience out of a bottle. Rock Bottom Brewery is
definitely favoring the hops lately, with a Pale Ale that will make
you dizzy with hops.

--
-Mike


      
Date: 05 Mar 2007 20:07:29
From: Roger Shoaf
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?

"Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.205661392eae76ee98997d@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>
> Thank God hops were 'discovered' before I was too old to enjoy it!
> Try some of Three Floyds' Alpha King if you have a yen for a true,
> in-your-face hops experience out of a bottle. Rock Bottom Brewery is
> definitely favoring the hops lately, with a Pale Ale that will make
> you dizzy with hops.
>

I vote for Samuel Adams. I like the all malt brew and I think they got the
hops just about perfect. If I am in the mood for something hoppier, Sierra
Nevada is pretty good.

What irks me about the usual swill is that the non malt fermentables they
use seem to give me dry mouth and hangovers.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.




       
Date: 06 Mar 2007 09:30:59
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
We have a local brewery here called Victory - they are excellent. Mostly
they specialize in pedal to the floor brews like their "HopDevil" and "Old
Horizontal" which are rich in hops (and alcohol). But a few years ago they
changed (much to my disappointment) the recipe for their Victory lager to
make it more acceptable to a mainstream audience. Until then it was at that
"just right" level where the hops were clearly present but not too bitter.
But they lightened it up even further to the point where it is insipid to a
true beer lover. They changed it to broaden their mainstream appeal - for
the average guy raised on Bud who wants a beer (or 6) to drink while he is
watching the ball game it was still too intense, though it was already much
lighter than most of their other brews. The point is that the mainstream
beers reflect mainstream tastes - if the masses wanted hugely hopped all
malt beers, Busch would be glad to oblige.

Bringing the discussion back to coffee, if you serve people properly
brewed, 55g/liter drip coffee, a lot of people will say it's "too strong".
Apparently, there is a mass preference for weak watery drinks in general.


"Roger Shoaf" <shoaf@nospamsyix.com > wrote in message
news:1173154053.393542@news01.syix.com...
>
> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.205661392eae76ee98997d@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>
>> Thank God hops were 'discovered' before I was too old to enjoy it!
>> Try some of Three Floyds' Alpha King if you have a yen for a true,
>> in-your-face hops experience out of a bottle. Rock Bottom Brewery is
>> definitely favoring the hops lately, with a Pale Ale that will make
>> you dizzy with hops.
>>
>
> I vote for Samuel Adams. I like the all malt brew and I think they got
> the
> hops just about perfect. If I am in the mood for something hoppier,
> Sierra
> Nevada is pretty good.
>
> What irks me about the usual swill is that the non malt fermentables they
> use seem to give me dry mouth and hangovers.
>
> --
> Roger Shoaf
> If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
>
>
>




        
Date: 06 Mar 2007 09:33:11
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 2007-03-06, Jack Denver <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

> Bringing the discussion back to coffee, if you serve people properly
> brewed, 55g/liter drip coffee, a lot of people will say it's "too strong".
> Apparently, there is a mass preference for weak watery drinks in general.

Bingo!

Most of my friends won't drink stouts, porters, and IPA's. Likewise,
my harrars and straight shots also get polite no-thank-you's. All my
proselytizing is for nought. You can lead 'em, but....

nb


       
Date: 06 Mar 2007 05:54:35
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
In article <1173154053.393542@news01.syix.com >, shoaf@nospamsyix.com
says...
>
> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.205661392eae76ee98997d@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> >
> > Thank God hops were 'discovered' before I was too old to enjoy it!
> > Try some of Three Floyds' Alpha King if you have a yen for a true,
> > in-your-face hops experience out of a bottle. Rock Bottom Brewery is
> > definitely favoring the hops lately, with a Pale Ale that will make
> > you dizzy with hops.
> >
>
> I vote for Samuel Adams. I like the all malt brew and I think they got the
> hops just about perfect. If I am in the mood for something hoppier, Sierra
> Nevada is pretty good.

Sierra Nevada is my standard offering in my home. In fact, my bar is
about 95% complete and the Sierra Nevada tap handles have already
been ordered. The hops are dead on, to my taste. The Three Floyds'
is for when I need an extra jolt of hops (it's truly an eye-opener).

> What irks me about the usual swill is that the non malt fermentables they
> use seem to give me dry mouth and hangovers.

I've all but given up on those. Since I've stopped to smell the
roses, so to speak, commodity beer has gone the way of commodity
coffee in my repertoire.

--
-Mike


        
Date: 06 Mar 2007 11:00:11
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
http://www.newalbanian.com/gh2007preview.html
Need I say more. This place is two blocks from my home and the Gravity Head
festival starts this Friday. Don't expect many posts from me for the next
couple of weeks. ::::::::grin:::::::::
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************

"Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.2057127461f9f78e989981@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> Sierra Nevada is my standard offering in my home. In fact, my bar is
> about 95% complete and the Sierra Nevada tap handles have already
> been ordered. The hops are dead on, to my taste. The Three Floyds'
> is for when I need an extra jolt of hops (it's truly an eye-opener).
> <SNIP>
>Since I've stopped to smell the
> roses, so to speak, commodity beer has gone the way of commodity
> coffee in my repertoire.




        
Date: 06 Mar 2007 10:55:24
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Tue, 6 2007 05:54:35 -0600, Mike Hartigan <mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote:

>Sierra Nevada is my standard offering in my home. In fact, my bar is
>about 95% complete and the Sierra Nevada tap handles have already
>been ordered. The hops are dead on, to my taste. The Three Floyds'
>is for when I need an extra jolt of hops (it's truly an eye-opener).

Standard here is Anchor Steam, with Sierra Nevada and assorted micros and
Belgians as back-ups for the weekly poker game.

Sam's brews are a bit too mild for me.

We've had the Three Floyds, and it's quite nice (especially since my wife's
middle name is Floyd. She refuses to take the hint, though. 8;) )

Anchor Steam's Liberty Ale has been delivering great hop jolts for many years.
Our local (DC) Tupper's Hop Pocket is fine too.

Anything from Rogue or Mendocino Brewing is likely to be excellent.

We drink the occasional bottle of Chimay Grand Cru in place of wine with ceratin
suppers, like spicy Indian or Mexican food.

Of course, there are also around 125 different single malt whiskies in the
house, so we do have a plethora of choices...

-- Larry


    
Date: 05 Mar 2007 08:10:28
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
"Coffee for Connoisseurs" <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote in message
news:xfRGh.7504$8U4.6215@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Probably for the same reasons the French winemakers are; if "Burgundy"
> becomes a generic term for "soft red", and the so-called "Burgundies" are
> mass produced dreck with no resemblance to the real thing, then the
> discerning customers, and the people trying to be discerning customers,
> stop buying Burgundy. The crap continues to sell to the lowest common
> denominator ket and the real producers go broke. Substitute "Kona" for
> "Burgundy" and you have the Kona farmer's arguments in a nutshell.
>
> I once tasted something called "Gallo Burgundy", I wouldn't even wish it
> on DaveB. I live in hope that someday it becomes illegal for USA brewers
> to label their products as "beer" when there are neither barley nor hops
> included in the manufacturing process. If you're willing to let
> multinational chains impose THEIR vision of espresso/specialty
> coffee/hamburgers/beer/wine on the mass ket, sooner or later, that will
> BE the standard.
>
>
>
> --
> Alan
>
> alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
> www.coffeeco.com.au
>

Interestingly enough, Gallo's "Hearty Burgundy" used to get reasonably good
writeups as a drinkable very cheap red wine a couple of decades ago. I'd
bet it was better than "two buck chuck," that Charles Shaw line that sold
for about $2/bottle recently.

I wasn't trying to address the issue of of stealing place names, e.g.
"Burgundy," on poor quality beverages and beans, but rather the mass
ket's use of "coffee" and expresso-name beverages. Many of these
beverages have names that aren't even "real," names like "latte." If you
ordered a "latte" outside of a highly touristic area in Italy, I'm pretty
sure they would give you a . . . glass of milk.

I'm trying to figure out why we, as true "conoisseurs" of coffee, should
concern ourselves with the low end product produced by mass keters, bad
cafes, and restaurants. Since I've never concerned myself with bad food in
restaurant chains I don't eat at (even though I'm a foodie), the explanation
is still unclear to me.

ken




     
Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:40:21
From: Mathew Hargreaves
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
Ken Fox wrote:
>
> I'm trying to figure out why we, as true "conoisseurs" of coffee, should
> concern ourselves with the low end product produced by mass keters, bad
> cafes, and restaurants.

Best said in "Sparticus": Keep your friends close (good coffee),
and your enemies closer (bad coffee).
At least you and a few people know the differences. Sharing that
knowledge with the world will wake a few more people up. Then the world
spins on and very little changes.

CHEERS...Mathew


     
Date: 05 Mar 2007 09:43:56
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 2007-03-05, Ken Fox <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Interestingly enough, Gallo's "Hearty Burgundy" used to get reasonably good
> writeups as a drinkable very cheap red wine a couple of decades ago. I'd
> bet it was better than "two buck chuck," that Charles Shaw line that sold
> for about $2/bottle recently.

It got a 14.7 out of 15 from a Time Magazine panel of five USA and
five French wine critics, scoring higher than any other CA wine
tested. But, it was still a jug wine, no better than a cheap merlot.
As for 2$CHK, it's a moving target. The current batches suck, nothing
like the original stuff which was pretty darn good. Much better than
Hearty Burgundy. Alas, no more. Watch those Gallo wines, now. The
decedents of the Bros are trying to produce the real deal and some
efforts are outstanding. Their '94 cab was awesome and sold by the
case.

> I'm trying to figure out why we, as true "conoisseurs" of coffee, should

Anyone labeling themselves as "true connoisseurs" has already strayed
into the pretentious zone. Obsessing over it is part and parcel.

nb


      
Date: 05 Mar 2007 10:38:33
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On Mon, 05 2007 09:43:56 -0600, notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote:

>
>Anyone labeling themselves as "true connoisseurs" has already strayed
>into the pretentious zone. Obsessing over it is part and parcel.

Pretentious?
Moi?

Claim to be a "common sewer" of fine food, wine, cognac, armagnac,
whisky, whiskey, espresso and mere coffee.

Except for those residing in Idaho, where piped plumbing can still be
a future enhancement, we are all in fact, the first portal into said
"common sewer"


       
Date: 05 Mar 2007 14:30:04
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Why are "Coffee People" so Insecure?
On 2007-03-05, I- >Ian <someone@nowhere.com> wrote:

> Except for those residing in Idaho, where piped plumbing can still be
> a future enhancement.....

What's piped plumbing? ;)

nb ....moving to Nathrop CO, pop 15